I'm thinking of opening up a new account for the sole purpose of overseas withdrawals. I do not like to carry lots of cash nor use travelers' checks.

On my last trip, I got dinged $3 for each withdrawal from my bank. I'm sure there's gotta be a bank or credit union that doesn't charge an international withdrawal fee. Anyone know of one or more?

If possible, please also list the associated networks the card uses. This is important because for the debit card to work, the ATM needs to be able to connect to the same network. When I was in Sao Paolo, I was only able to use one bank while my friends had a choice of banks to use.

Here is the info I have so far:

Bank of America
$3 International Withdrawal Fee
Networks: Plus, Star, Interlink

Union Bank
$3.50 International Withdrawal Fee
Networks: Cirrus, Maestro, Star

D'Art. I have had a different experience than you. I use a Bank of America Visa debit card in Buenos Aires without charge. Maybe it depends upon the type account you have? I suggest you check with Bank of America.

I also have a Citi Bank cash card that charges 1.50 per transaction.

City Bank! No fee for withdrawals at other city bank branches worldwide! open a Savings account.

With a City Bank Card you withdraw US$ 1000 per day at any City Bank anywhere in the world for ZERO fee!!!! can't beat that!! you just need to find a City Bank!!!!

if you dont find one, it just works as any Cirrus with slightly lower fees than other Bank networks!!!!!

Hello. RT here.

My Washington Mutual card works in both San Jose, CR and Puerto Plata in the DR.

They charge me a $3 fee from both countries. Hell, it's worth $3 not to carry cash.

Networks:
Plus, Pulse, Star
In the DR, it worked at every ATM that said 'ATH'.

In San Jose, the only place I had a problem was on Avenida and Calle Central in the round glass kiosk in the middle of the pedestrian walkway. I had success at the Del Rey, the Bank across from the Morazon, and the large bank/office building facing Parque Cental on Avenida 4.

RT

Brazil Specialist, Maybe it is because I do not have a City Bank savings account or because I use it in Argentina rather than Brazil, but my citi card a. has limits ($100 per day, 300 per week) and b. charges 1.50 per transaction.

Citibank, will give its customers (US/UK) equiv of USD1000/day. No extra charges. So does HSBC - Which I think is slowly becoming a dominant player in EZE

I also have a Bank of America card. I never pay ATM usage fees. I have an Advantage account and they waive all ATM fees for me. It's easy to open this type of account. If I do get charged I call my personal banking officer and she manually waives it when I come back. Not sure if she does this because I have a few accounts. My company also has business with them.

Another option is to use Paypal.com They only charge $1 to withdraw up to $400 per day. I like being able to add another card in an "anonymous name". You can get a free card and just make up a name. If you travel it can come in handy if you want to be private and don't want your real name on it. Just go to Paypal.com and get a Premium account or business account and you can easily set this up.

Ezy
The amount you can withdraw per day depends on how long you have been a customer with each individual bank and what type of accounts you have. I have a B of A platinum debit card and it has a $ 5,000 per day max withdrawal. No fees charged. Nice to have access to that amount every day ,but could be a big problem if someone ever got my card and PIN. They say they will reimburse for any amount not charged by me if card lost or stolen. Hope I never have to use that service.

I have used my Compass Bank Visa/ debit card in Sonora and Sinaloa, Mexico at ATM machines and restaurants and hotels. I have never been charged a service charge. If I am charged a service charge, Compass guarantees that they will refund it (and they do). I recently lost this card in Hermosillo. I immediately reported it lost on their toll free number when I got home. Compass replaced the card in about a week and it was a hassle, because I had to activate the card in person, but I have not been held responsible for any unauthorized charges.

Unfortunately for some Mongers, Compass Bank is not in all 50 states. But, as the above entries verify, fee-free ATM use is available elsewhere -- you just have to look for it. I figure the banks are rich enough, they don't need these fees!

I intend to obtain toll free numbers for all my credit cards and my debit card so I can call my banks from Mexico (or elsewhere) if I ever have any problems in the future.

I believe ATM machines are the way to go. I don't have to carry large amounts of cash and I get a great exchange rate.

There's been debate on the value of travelers cheque vs. ATMs when used overseas. I just got this in my mail. Perhaps someone on Club Hombre who's smarter than me can tell me if it's good or bad for me (the consumer)?

Thanks!
______

Effective April 2, 2005, if you use your Check Card or ATM Card to purchase goods or services (or to obtain cash from an ATM) in currency other than U.S. dollars, the currency conversion exchange rate used by Visa will be:

a rate selected by Visa from a range of rates available in wholesale currency markets for the applicable central processing date, which rate may differ from the rate Visa receives, or the government-mandated rate in effect for the central processing date. Visa will no longer add a 1% adjustment factor and show it as part of the U.S. dollar amount.

------------------

Bank of America just raised their rates to $5 per international ATM withdrawal. I use to get charged only $2.00. I put 10K into a CD with them and opened an Advantage account. That was good for only two freebie ATM withdrawals per month. So I walked across the street to Compass Bank and now I have worldwide free ATM's.

Too bad Compass is not national though. Their reach only stretches from the South to the Southwest. They are only located in Florida, Alabama, Texas, New Mexico, Colorado and Arizona.

On another note, on my recent trip to Panama (trip report coming), I was for only the second time not able to obtain money from an ATM but charged the money I attempted to withdraw. The first time this happened was in Brazil.

On the Brazil one I called Bank of America when I returned and put in a dispute. It was solved rather quickly and I was credited back the money that was wrongly debited from my account. Most recently in Panama, I went to an ATM. Put in my card, tried to get $200, the machine churned, the printer made noise, yet I received no money and no receipt. But I was charged $202 on my account. I again put in a dispute, this time with Compass.

I am certainly not familiar with the laws and treaties that govern international banking, etc. But I was always fearful when MY BANK would call with these disputes that the local bank's ATM provider would just say something like, “NOPE!” “The customer got their money. Don't know what you are talking about.” But luckily that hasn't happened. The ATM operators seem to have been honest about their mistakes and have credited back the money to my bank, which in turn credits me back.


(Message edited by xenono on June 05, 2005)

Xen, those BofA fees are only if you use ATMs at banks that are not part of BofA's global ATM alliance. If you make withdrawals from banks that are part of the alliance, you pay NO fees.

The problem is, BofA doesn't list the member banks on their website. You need to call customer service, tell them the country you are traveling to, and have them list the banks for you. You may even get a rep who doesn't know about this program, and you may have to ask them to ask their supervisor.

But the effort is well worth it. I paid no fees on my last trip to Thailand. Something to keep in mind.

You had much more success than I did regarding this.

I had called and asked them to give me a list. It didn't include banks in Thailand. It was only mostly the following countries listed below. They said they didn't have any banks in Thailand as part of the alliance.

Guess I can try the supervisor route next time. But why would they publish banks in mostly developed countries only? And the banks you listed in your chat board thread about it I withdrew from, and got charged fees. I was certainly scrathing my head after that one.


From BofA:

Use your ATM card or Check Card within our Global ATM Alliance in the countries shown with no fees.

Barclays (United Kingdom)
BNP Paribas (France)
Deutsche Bank (Germany)
Santander Serfin (Mexico)
Scotiabank (Canada)
Westpac (Australia and
New Zealand)

This was the list they gave me and the one listed on their website.

http://bankofamerica.via.infonow.net/locator/atmbranch/


(Message edited by xenono on June 05, 2005)

It was a bit of persistence. Here's some more background.

Last fall I received a stuffer with my statement that touted the Global ATM alliance. The stuffer said that I used my BofA ATM card to withdraw cash at ATMs of member banks, I would pay no fees.

So I went to BofA's website and entered "global ATM alliance" in the search bar. Try it. It will appear in a couple of FAQs. But nowhere will a list appear.

So I called customer service. The first rep I got was clueless and never heard of it. Called again the next day. Ditto for this rep. They transferred me to foreign exchange out of confusion. FX transferred me back to customer service. The third rep I got knew exactly what I was talking about, and knew where to look on BoA's intranet for the info. I asked for the list of member banks in Thailand, and the list I posted on the chat board is what she gave me.

Note that when I returned and got my next statement, BofA charged me $5 for each withdrawal I made (total of 7). I called them up, and explained that I utilized bank that their own rep told me were part of the program. BofA reversed all seven charges.

Apparently BofA did not program their system to automatically waive the fees. So they have a program they advertised, but their systems don't automatically support it. I guess they assume most people won't bother calling and the bank winds up keeping the money.

I hardly spent any time on the phone either. I think my longest wait time was a minute to speak to a rep. Not bad at all.

Sorry you guys are not having the success I have. But, here's the info. My account is based in FL.

First, I have an advantage status account - meaning something like $15k combined accross accts (checking, that CD referenced) or over $5k alone in checking.

Next, I get unlimmited free overseas ATMs. I agree that maybe the limit is supposed to be 2 - but I get over 10. AND, at any ATM - not just the "network" ones. And it is correct that their "network" ones are a subset of a VISA/Plus network. For example, in UK it's Barclays - but I routinely use HSBC and no charge.

So, my advice is call to open an advantage, and make sure they promise to waive the 2/mos free limit. It can be done, and I have it, and I'm sure of it.

Now, to answer a more basic question - is it worth it? Is waiving some number of $5 trans fees worth having your money tied up in a non-investment class asset. If you have 5-10 trans/mos, that's well over $300/yr. But anyway, BofA's CD is quite a nice option. It pays a rate only maybe 50-100 basis points from market (2.3% versus say an ING MM rate of 3.0%) - and it is truely a MM-comprabable asset. They waive any fees/costs if you cash out any part early - thus while called a CD this is truely a MM in all other terms and pays close to top MM rates.

I have a VISA gold card I travel with from a Credit Union. They do not charge any money for cash advance and VISA get's an INCREDIBLE currency exchange rate. Can use it at any ATM with a VISA logo...

E

Whoever said I tie my money up with my BofA account? I haven't paid a dime in fees to BofA in years. I keep my cash in an ING Orange account and transfer it into the BofA checking as needed.

At least for Thailand, it turned out that the network members pretty much encompassed every major bank in the country, so there certainly was no inconvenience there.

I didn't say that YOU tie your money up, I said maintaining a $5k or $15k balance to hold advantage status is conceptionally having it tied up as one is losing opportunity cost to make a real MM rate (e.g. an ING 3.0% rate).

I do what you do, moving between BofA and ING... But, as I wrote, BofA is at 2.7% so it's only like 30bp's, thus worth it to avoid some $5 fees (if they are hitting you with them).

btw, has anyone noticed that banks are now adding extra charges ranging from 1% to 3% to the amount of each charge made in a foriegn country? My friend said citibank now adds 3% to his (on his aa advantage card) and my bank now adds 1% (starting last billing cycle). Another friend got an update to his cardholder agreement saying they were going to start charging 3%, he called the company and told them he did not accept the update and they said fine, they would not charge him, but that his card would not be renewed.

Does anyone know the justification for the extra charges (i.e. increased fraud risk, fc costs, etc.) beyond the fact that issuers of credit cards are now adding fees like crazy to increase revenues?

I highly recommend USAA federal savings bank. I have used B of A and others and USAA is by far the best in my opinion. With B of A and others I was probably paying a couple hundred dollars a year in fees, whereas with USAA I end up not paying any fees and getting back $50 or so a month between interest and fee reimbursements. Here are the reasons I like USAA so much:

1) They charge nothing for any ATM withdrawal from any bank, and even reimburse you up to $1.50 for the charges other banks assess (up to 10 or so withdrawals a month).
2) They pay interest on checking with no minimum balance requirement.
3) Free online bill pay.
4) Good exchange rates.
5) No monthly charges or other fees no matter how many transactions you make or what your balance is.
6) Credit cards with the lowest Interest rates I have seen (as low as 5.75%, mine is currently around 7%).
7) Good customer service, able to call collect from any foreign country.
8) Every time you use your debit card to make a purchase, they refund you 1% of the purchase price.
9) Good website, powerful and flexible account history and transaction features.
10) Free checks
11) Free funds transfers
12) Unlimited free check writing
13) Free overdraft protection

Drawbacks:
1) They have no physical facilities outside of texas, so you have to mail all deposits (or sign up for direct deposit of your check). This has never been a problem for me as I use direct deposit and any deposits I have to mail in are credited usually within 3 days of my mailing them.
2) There are conditions for membership, you either have to be active military, former military, married to someone who was or in the military, the child of a member or the spouse or former spouse of a member.

This might sound like an ad for USAA, but I am in no way affiliated with them. I have been with them for more than 5 years and I love them so much I recommend them to everyone (assuming you are eligible).

(Message edited by gr8ter on June 07, 2005)

WRT my posting above regarding the extra charge assessed on overseas charges (and cash withdrawals from a CC), I found this excellent guide from TJHombre Gators Guide to Columbia.

Remember, you wont have the protection of charge backs on your credit card if the purchase is outside of the USA. For a good little primer on using credit card overseas, read the following:
http://www.smarterliving.com

Charge Cards Overseas: Who Gouges, Who Doesn’t
A few more big banks have started to add their own surcharge to foreign-country charge card billings, but you can still find a few banks that don’t. That’s the latest in the ongoing saga of the overseas charge-card gouge.

First, a quick refresher course in the way MasterCard and Visa transactions work outside the United States. When you pay for something with your charge card, the merchant’s bank pays the merchant’s account in local currency (less a merchant fee) and submits your billing, in local currency, to the international MasterCard or Visa network. The network converts the bill from local currency into U.S. dollars at that day’s going wholesale rate, adds a 1-percent fee, and passes the resulting dollar charge along to your bank, which adds the charge to your bill.

The international networks have been adding that 1-percent fee for years, and it’s low. That’s why charge cards have been by far the most efficient way for ordinary consumers to convert currency. But about two years ago, issuing banks here in the United States started to add their own fees to those foreign charges. It’s not for conversion; the international networks do that before your bank ever sees the transaction. It’s simply another source of revenue to your bank — basically, for doing nothing.

Among the hundreds of bank-issued credit cards in the marketplace, I focus on (1) those that give a mile of airline credit for every dollar you charge and (2) those in widest circulation. Here’s the status of those cards, as of mid-May:

— US Bank (Northwest) was not surcharging any cards, nor were MBNA or Household, two giant card issuers that aren’t affiliated with an airline. You pay just 1 percent for the exchange.

— First USA (United, British Airways, and Southwest) is adding 2 percent on most of the cards it issues. However, a spokesperson told me that the bank was still exempting United and BA cards from the surcharge — no matter what you may have read elsewhere.

— Bank of America (Alaska, America West, and US Airways) has joined Chase (Continental) and Citibank (American) in adding the surcharge on all cards. Providian, which at one time had added as much as 4 percent, has scaled back to 2 percent, which now seems to be the standard. You pay 3 percent, total, for the exchange.

— American Express and Diners Club, which do their own conversions, assess a total of 2 percent on foreign billings. Given today’s marketplace, here are my recommendations for travelers:

1. Even with 3-percent fees, a charge card is still the best way to buy goods and services in foreign currencies.

2. Unless you travel outside the United States a lot, you might want to keep using your card, even though it assesses a surcharge — at least if you’re otherwise happy with that card. The extra 2 percent probably doesn’t amount to enough dollars to warrant switching cards.

3. But if your airline card adds a surcharge, that 2 percent add-on completely offsets the dollar value of the mileage you earn. If you already have a second card that doesn’t add a surcharge, you might as well use it outside the United States, especially if it has other desirable features. Or, if you have one, use Amex or Diners outside the United States whenever you can. Carrying two cards is a good idea, anyhow, in case one gets lost or stolen.

4. You might also want to switch to a no-surcharge card if you spend a good bit of money outside the United States. Check with your own bank, other local banks, First USA (800-472-0702 for United, www.firstusa.com), Household (800-477-6000, www.household.com), MBNA (800-932-2775), or US Bank (800-444-1244).

Finally, don’t assume that today’s conditions will last forever. Charge card companies are always looking for new fees and charges, and even the banks that currently don’t surcharge may be tempted by that 2-percent skim. Keep your eyes on the fine print your bank sends you.

Gr8ter - by "bank", are you referring to you credit card issuer or a bank as in ATM and checking?

All Visa/MC's carry international fees, and always have. For many years the fee is the 1% that the international subsidiaries of Visa/MC charge and nearly all CC issuers pass along to consumers, plus anywhere from 0%-2% tacked on by the issuing bank.

For example, BofA adds the full 2% (which is why it's dumb to use a BofA Visa/MC overseas). MBNA adds nothing (only passes the 1%). Citi, which I use in the USA adds 2% (thus I won't use it overseas except in emergency as a back up card).

I read that there is to be some change, maybe Visa/MC int'l will raise to 2% and banks will lower? I don't remember.

If you were referring to ATM fees, BofA may be changing something right now... I found a $5 foreign ATM fee from a few days ago, and I called to challenge it. The agent said "Strange, you have an automatic waiver of these, but it still hit. I'll reverse it for you, but we just raised this type of fee from a lower amount ($2?) to $5 and I wonder if we will soon no longer allow waivers as part of that change?".

We'll find out soon.

And if BofA changes, rather than pay $5 5-10times/month = $300-500/yr (ouch!) in fees I'll be looking for a new bank for ATM use (and I don't qualify for USAA)

To late to edit my response, which was being written/posted while Gr8ter added to his posts - and he sums it up much better than I did (by cutting and pasting) :-b

I believe that MBNA has started charging the 3% foreign exchange fee. Of the big credit card issuers, Capital One still doesn't charge the fee.

I'm on the phone with MBNA now (I'm traveling overseas today) - I am confirming that as of May/25th they are charging the extra 2% (to a total of 3%) on their World MBNA MC.

I asked to be transferred to a product specialist before discussing closing my account. They informed me that they have a product called Visa Select which has no annual fee, and still only passes a 1% (versus 3%, ...they absorb the other 2% unlike Citi, BofA, MBNA MC, etc.).

I am complete an app on the phone, and they will mail me a new card/account.

I have confidence that MBNA is still a great overseas CC option (until I analyze their specific FX rates).

I’m in Mexico a lot and Asia sometimes. I recently got my CitiBank MasterCard bill and was pissed to see the currency exchange fees. I did some research over the internet and by phone and this is what I found out.

Target has a Visa card which has NO (as in Zero) currency exchange fees. The lady I spoke to said Visa has stopped charging the fee and Target never had one.

Also, my Amex Platinum bill just arrived and there are no currency exchange fees on it.

The might not break out the fee - but it's there. I believe AMEX "hides" a 3% fee in their less than market (by 3%) FX.

The Amex charge for 20,000 yen was $183.36 US. That's 109.07 Yen to the Dollar. The best bank rate was 100 Yen to the dollar.

According to my information ALL Visa card charges are settled through the Visa Company clearinghouse for the same amount no matter who your bank is. Then the bank ads their fees.

ALL Visa and MC are done the same, their int'l divisions add a line item 1% fee (since June) - it used to be embedded in the FX. Banks then choose what to add from there, and typical (BofA, Citi, many MBNA cards) is 2% additional... some add 0% additional (MBNA Visa Select, I've read here First USAA or something like that).

AMEX, which doesn't use Visa nor MC to clear, which I stopped using in the mid-80s because of the fee, still charges 3% I've read here.

Originally posted by Wallstreet in South America Chat in June 2005

I did a lot of research on foreign ATM withdrawal fees about a year ago, so my info may be dated, but this is what I found.

First Republic Bank gives unlimited free ATM withdrawals to their customers ANYWHERE in the world. They will reimburse any charge that is incurred from the bank you withdraw on as well as not charging you any fees for the transaction.

I didn't come across any other bank that did this. A few don't charge fees if you use other banks' ATMs, but they don't reimburse use for fees incurred from the other banks.

First Republic is located throughout California and Las Vegas, and they now have three branches in New York City.

You must maintain a balance of $5,000 for fee-free ATM withdrawals.

http://www.firstrepublic.com/

The other solution (which I use) is Paypal. The withdrawal fee is $1 no matter where you use it. There is a limit of US$400 per day.

You can get the Paypal card, which is a MasterCard debit and works on the Cirrus system after your account has been open 60 days.

There are no fees charged to fund your Paypal account from your US checking account. I think it's a 3% fee charged if you fund your Paypal account with a credit card.

I've used my Paypal card throughout Asia, Europe and in Colombia. Never had a problem.

With the recent hacking of ATM card information and their PINs and unauthorized withdrawal of large $$$, USA banks stopped ATM withdrawals in Britain, Canada, Russia, and several other countries. Here's an interesting article about its effect. In a nutshell, don't rely only on your ATM/debit as your only source of funds while overseas - have a second ATM/debit card from another bank, a credit card, and/or travelers cheques. Always call your bank to tell them what country you're going to or risk having your ATM/debit card frozen.

(snip)
-----------------------
You could be out of the country and out of luck with your ATM card

As thieves become better at cracking ATM codes as well as stealing credit-card numbers, banks are getting more aggressive about locking down their international systems when they suspect fraud, leaving travelers stranded without access to their cash, and no warning.

Take the case of Frank Conlon, a retired University of Washington history professor, who tried to use his Wells Fargo Bank-issued Visa debit card at a cash machine in London recently. It wouldn't work, even though he had used it six weeks earlier in India and Thailand.

The problem didn't have anything to do with his account. Nor was it a technical glitch, he found out after making calls to his branch and to bank headquarters in California.

"Wells Fargo had put a hold on any ATM transaction in the entire U.K.," Conlon said. "When I asked them why they had not informed the customers, they said it was to 'not compromise our investigation.' "

He was told to take his card into any bank and get cash over the counter, but he could find no bank willing to do this. Finally, he obtained the cash he needed by writing a personal check at an American Express office and showing his Amex card.

"Periodically, we do block transactions," said Wells Fargo spokeswoman Lara Underhill. Underhill said the bank's security policies prevented her from providing any details about what happened in London.

"Most of the time, [your card] is going to work, but there are times when we take extra steps to protect our customers."

News reports circulated last week that the Wells Fargo problem was linked with a widespread security breach that caused several banks to reissue debit cards or block access in countries where ATM cards were used to withdraw cash.

Citibank recently confirmed reports that it had detected fraudulent ATM cash withdrawals with some of its MasterCard credit and debit cards used in the UK, Russia and Canada.

A series of consumer accounts had been compromised during data leaks by third-party U.S. retailers, the bank said. As a result, it blocked ATM transactions in those countries earlier this month, and had to issue new cards to some customers.

Avivah Litan, an analyst writing for the Gartner research group, called the combined bank actions reflective of the largest PIN theft to date.

The schemes involve hackers somehow gaining access to the encrypted PIN data that is sent along with card numbers to processors that execute PIN debit transactions. The thieves also steal terminal keys used to encrypt PINs, which are typically stored on a retailer's terminal controllers, according to her report. They then use the information to make counterfeit cards.

Fraud alerts

More common than system-wide lock downs is a hold placed on an individual's credit card when a transaction triggers a fraud alert. In these cases, the bank usually informs you, but the alert comes in a phone call to your home or work number, and you usually don't know about it because you're away on a trip.

This usually happens when you try to use your card in a place you normally don't, even Canada, as one Seattle woman recently found out when she tried to use her Bank of America-issued Visa card to buy Whistler ski-lift tickets at a 7-Eleven in Squamish, B.C.

Her card was denied. When she returned home, she found phone messages on her machine from the bank asking her to call.

Credit-card fraud costs banks and merchants millions annually, and ATM forgeries and PIN thefts are rising. Federal laws limit consumers' liability provided stolen cards and unauthorized charges are reported promptly (see www.ftc.gov for details), but travelers who want to avoid hassles will want to take some precautions.

Here's what to do

• If you're leaving the country, tell your bank where you're going and when, even it it's just across the border to Canada. Do this by calling the number on the back of your credit and ATM cards. Although it might not seem wise to tell a stranger that you'll be away, it's the smartest way to avoid hassles. You can be somewhat vague about the dates.

The bank will alert its fraud department that you will be using your cards while traveling. This works most of the time, but it's not a 100 percent guarantee.

Before you leave, get the phone number (not the 800 number on the back of the card) to call from outside the country in case there's a problem. Usually it's a number that accepts collect calls. Hopefully, you won't be routed to a call center in India. But if you don't get a satisfactory answer from the first person you talk to, ask to speak to a supervisor.

• Don't rely on any one payment method. Take back-up cards (two different credit cards, and if possible, two ATM cards tied to different banks or credit unions), extra cash and/or travelers checks. Memorize any PIN numbers you might need, and keep your backup cards in a separate and secure place.

• Bring an extra picture ID in addition to your passport. You could be asked for two forms when cashing a travelers check or for a cash advance or other banking transaction.

• Don't respond to e-mails saying that your credit or debit card may have been compromised. The practice of sending fraudulent e-mails alerting consumers to fraud that hasn't taken place is called phishing, and it's becoming more common.

Banks don't notify you by e-mail or use e-mail to ask for account numbers, social security numbers or other confidential information. They call.

Carol Pucci: 206-464-3701 or cpucci@seattletimes.com

Copyright © 2006 The Seattle Times Company