(from 9/22/00 archive, originally posted by Xman)

From the time you first hear about AB or CC to the time you feel you've had enough, for one reason or the other, there seem to be stages of monger development/evolvement. Not everybody goes through all of them, but everybody progresses in some way. After lurking on this board and fucking well over 50 chicas in the zona (some many times), I noticed that I definitely "evolved" in skill, shrewdness, ability to get a feel for the "vibe", and close the deal so that I was gettin some amazing shit in the room with some awesome babes. Sometimes my boyz from home slowed me down, but sometimes it worked to my advantage. These are just observations about what I've observed, read about, and experienced to some extent.
Stage 1. This begins when you first hear about AB or maybe the CC. Your antennae go up, and the idea of TJ almost seems hardly possible, but worth checking out. I know could hardly wait to get down there. You also wonder about the sleaze factor, and are there really fine babes to be had for the price of a few lap dances? For me the risk of STDs didn't really enter the picture, I had to get me some. So you plan a trip.

Stage 2. You get down there and check out AB or the CC and can't believe your eyes. Fuckin babes (and some just ok ones too, but I wasn't lookin at those!) everywhere! Cheap beer, and the chicas want to get to know and FUCK you. Fuckin awesome, dude! This stage can last for a long time cause it's great. Trophy fucks or less, it's still great to get awesome sex in a trippin place. The fuckin bomb, dude! Buddies, beer, women, sex...not bad for a trip south of the border.

Many dudes stay in this phase for a LONG time. Easy to understand why. They just keep adding chicas to their list of been there, done that. Some of these dudes only do the trophys and get minimal service, but their minds are captured by the beauty. Some do the trophys and get the service. Some are just poor fucks just happy to get laid at all. Hence the term YMMV. Same merry go round, however.

Stage 3. Where stage two was comprised of short sessions, now you start looking for longer time with the women. You also start lookin for more...better sex with full on frenching, consistent BBBJs, post sex talk and maybe a massage, or just partying with the chica, in her room or yours (usually yours). Maybe with one favorita, maybe with many chicas, you're still lookin for MORE. Some dudes look to get it for less, some pay for it, ya still want it.

First you look in AB or the CC, and maybe you find it there. But you still want to see if the grass is greener so you brave the alley bars (especially HK) and Tropical maybe. Revo may even be on your menu. If you've got some game and you don't look like a 50 year old Goodyear Blimp (or even if you do), you may REALLY start gettin some at these places. The chicas are interested in hangin with you for you and your boyz. This can end up really interesting, and the soap opera has begun. Talk about the often mentioned girlfriend sex, most gfs don't do this much or get this nasty. Anything goes, man. Full on BB action is possible and goes on a lot in these situations. You may end up with a GF yourself, if you're not careful. Trips to Revo with the chicas, out to eat, whatever...I've done it all, and it felt great. The only problema is having to listen to the woman. Now that's some fucked up shit! lol

Stage 4. In stage four, you find yourself gettin really caught up in this shit. It begins to dominate your life and plans revolve around trips south. You may even consider moving or getting an apartment in TJ. You can't wait for your next fix. You're hooked, baby. If only Mom could see you now!

You can reexamine yourself and what you're doin down there, wake up and put shit in perspective, or just go deeper. Addiction is serious shit and you are, whether you like it or not, or whether you're willing to admit it or not. The shit can take years off your life, and I'm talkin just the lifestyle, not the drugs or STDs. You set limits finally because caught up and broke ain't no way to go thru life. Mongers experience different various levels, of course. Some dudes never get to this stage because they always keep it in perspective. Favoritas, gfs, even wives can grow out of this stage.

From here...who knows? Stages can last a day or a decade, EVERYTHING depends on you. You may get unlucky in TJ during any stage...shaken down by cops, mugged by the rateros, ripped off by a chica, heartbroken by a chica, broke, lose your friends, get your ass kicked, you contracted one of the lifetime STDs, whatever... Anything can happen down there.

The upside? A great fucking time, maybe a woman. The downside? You tell me. As always, good luck to you dudes. Budoka

I can tell you from experience that the above post is dead on. I burned through those stages like a space capsule returning to earth from outer space. Proximity, time and money are some of the things that make it a happen. I live about a half hour from the border and work for myself.

It's been like a rollercoaster ride so far,but I would not trade the experience for anything.

And, to me, the presence of this website (and Redsnake before this) is the link between the two lives separated by the border. I mean, because of this website, I can't get rid of the thought of TJ, where I usally go only at night, even during the daytime.

Of course, I am in the deep shit of Stage 4.

When Xman first posted this on the Mexico Chat (9/22/00), there were plenty of excellent replies. You can find the discussion in the Mexico Chat archives. Lots of excellent contributions (Matiz, HornyMike, others). I view the "stages" thread on the Mexico Chat archives as one of the most profound things to read on this site.

OK-- here are the responses to XMan's "Stages" from the 9/22/00 Mexico Chat Archive. Happy Reading. Dogster

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Re: Stages of Monger Development

Webmaster: TJHombre

Posted by Matiz on September 18, 2000 at 12:31:33:

In Reply to: Stages of Monger Development posted by XMan on September 18, 2000 at 10:02:46:

The next stage is, as you suggest, to examine yourself. As Socrates said, "the unexamined life is not worth living." (BTW, contrary to popular opinion, it is possible to maintain a philosophical/spiritual curiosity about yourself and your life and fuck chicas at the same time. Far from beeing mutually exclusive activities, they are highly complementary. Most guys just choose not to mix them.)

Guys who don't make it to this stage inevitably remain stuck in the addiction stage or burnout entirely. The guys who do make it to this stage seem to eventually fade into the background on these boards because most guys are at the earlier stages and, frankly, don't want to read posts about us dealing with our own issues, as interesting as they may be to us personally. So I won't bore you with discussing the relation between evolutionary biology and male sexual behavior in TJ, or Redsnake as a virtual substitute for male tribal meetings, or differences in attitudes between young men and older men. (No applause, please.)

I'll just say that on a personal level, having moved through and beyond the "kid in the candy store" phase and the "rescue the chicas" phase and the "favorita" phase and the addiction phase, to the "self-examination" phase, I've found TJ to be an always fascinating, usually entertaining, occasionally dangerous field laboratory for self-examination and experimentation. I've resolved some personal issues in my life, satisfied and purged longtime fantasies, fixed new goals, and, on the whole, gotten somewhat of a grip on my own sexual needs and perspectives. Whether the pace of self-growth can continue indefinitely in this same laboratory--with the same chicas, and the same bars, and the same hotels, and the same smells and garbage in the streets, is hard to say. Is there a better laboratory? Is there a stage beyond this? Self-awareness? Self-understanding? Happiness? Monasticism? Quien sabe? Still working on it, though.

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Re: Stages of Monger Development

Posted by Daytimer on September 18, 2000 at 19:33:57:

In Reply to: Stages of Monger Development posted by XMan on September 18, 2000 at 10:02:46:

Great post Xman, and a good reply Matiz. I have gone through the stages the past 30 years. There have been two interuptions in those years of mongering called marriage. One time I stayed away from TJ for 5 years. At one time I thought I would never go back. But, when I was not getting the sex I wanted in my marriage I started to stray. I am single now and am hitting TJ more than ever. It took about 10 years for each of the stages. I am in the addiction stage now and am enjoying the girls more than I ever did in ways I never did before. I seldom do the trophy fucks anymore, though I enjoy looking at them.

There are advantages and disadvantages to mongering. I have seen both sides of the ledger. I have fulfilled my sexual fantasy to a high level. I have had wonderful sex with incredible women. I have had crazy times most men can only dream about (multiple women for instance). I consider myself lucky. What a great life I have had! I was a shy person when I first started going to TJ, now I am bold. I get what I want sexually. I do not have trouble telling women what I want. I can easily get American girl friends because of my understanding of how to make myself happy and how to make a woman happy. I learned about myself by going to TJ. It could not have happened any other way. I have spent a small fortune in TJ. I think about that sometimes, but I look at it this way. I am going to be spending all of my money in connection with a woman anyway. When I was married I spent a fortune trying to keep them happy. I spent tens of thousands of dollars over a 14 year period on the last wife. So, I look at spending 10 grand a year on hookers in TJ as no big deal. At least I have good memories of most of my TJ experiences. I can not say the same for my marriages. I am very addicted to TJ now. At age 50 there is nothing more addictive than young girls. I am having sex that most men can only dream of. So in closing I have to say I love it and will probably never break the addiction. I have not been able to for 30 years, so why not keep going for at least another 30.
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Re: Stages of Monger Development

Webmaster: TJHombre

Posted by HornyMike on September 18, 2000 at 20:13:43:

In Reply to: Stages of Monger Development posted by XMan on September 18, 2000 at 10:02:46:

Very interesting posts by all of you. I find myself more or less moving into Stage 4, occasionally vacillating back to the earlier stages. I am now more or less "abusing" TJ by trying to see if I can get emotional needs satisfied there, going past the pure physical. I love chatting with the chicas. I chat with them over drinks, in the room, the sex being almost an aside sometimes. I am not comfortable with this as I know such "friendship" can not be real. But I'm having a great time, so what the hey? I was recently dejected when a "favorita" left TJ. She was only in for a few weeks to raise a few bucks before heading back to school. I miss her, frankly. I was only with her once, went back a second time but she wasn't working. Now she's gone. Lovely, feminine personality. A 'pain in the ass' but in such a girlish feminine way it could do nothing but enchant you.

My "worries" are, what am I going to be doing when I'm 45 and 50? I hope not still trekking to TJ to screw 20 year old girls. I am hoping that the next stage will be celibacy, that I will lose all interest in casual sex, regress back into myself from whence I came, and will again be a good, law-abiding citizen, admitting of no sexual needs at all. I see the infeasibility of this, and only wonder where the future will lead me. One of my firebrand friends tells me I will burn in hell when I die for what I am doing, indulging in such unabashed carnal excess. Well, I hope he's wrong. On the other hand, lighten up dude.
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Re: Stages of Monger Development

Posted by Trumpet on September 19, 2000 at 07:00:35:

In Reply to: Stages of Monger Development posted by XMan on September 18, 2000 at 10:02:46:

Very good post I like ready posts like this, I don't have the experience that most of you guys do, so this really helps. Now I am stuck between stage 1 and 2, I have only been to TJ 4 times so still a lot to lean.

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Re: Stages of Monger Development


Posted by XMan on September 21, 2000 at 09:18:50:

In Reply to: Stages of Monger Development posted by XMan on September 18, 2000 at 10:02:46:

Excellent followups, dudes. Certainly we all have have needs on many levels...physical, emotional, mental, and ultimately, spiritual. For some mongers that have kept things in perspective in TJ, growth can happen down there I think. However, it's much easier to digress. The booze, late nights, to much sex (is that possible? lol), depletion of your bank account, less sleep, the myriad STDs, and the inevitable addiction can bring a dude down hard, slowly but surely. On our side of the border, it can lead to strained family relations (especially if you're married), loss of job, DUIs, recovering from STDs, decreased self esteem. This is a possible downside. Again, not everybody goes thru these, and if they do, to varying degrees. These are just symptoms of addiction.
Matiz, excellent reply. You are an excellent, lucid writer. From the way you post, you sound much older than me...the voice of experience, which I respect. My question for you would be how do YOU bridge the gap between contemplating growth/spiritual matters and acheiving it in TJ. In other words, by what vehicle or action does your growth come about. I may be much younger, but I've been force fed these issues at a young age (my homies don't even know of my unusual upbringing in the eastern traditions...and I don't plan on revealing my race. lol). You wonder if you can keep growing while fucking the same chicas and hanging in the same bars. Shaky ground if you ask me (but a fun one! lol). To have goals laid out and a vehicle to acheive them with confidence is more powerful.

Daytimer, you seem to have had a great time over 30 years, never caught an STD with probably hundreds of whores (hard to believe but amazing if true! The new pockit test will let you know if you have herpes 2 at 96% confidence). My increased confidence with women for the same reasons has made me much more bold also (but hopefully not stupid! lol). You keep shit in perspective, know what you spend, and enjoy the fruits of your confidence. Right on! That $260 cab ride to the border sure did suck I bet!

HorneyMike, I think celibacy is possible (but no fun!), but you would need a vehicle/method to rechannel the energy or it'll backfire. I know people that are celibate, but they don't come from the tradition you refer to. They are vibrant, healthy, and private, not preaching they are to the masses and then whacking off in the bathroom! That's some fucked up shit! lol

Trumpet, all I gotta say is good luck dude! lol Budoka

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Re: Stages of Monger Development

Posted by Matiz on September 21, 2000 at 14:31:39:

In Reply to: Re: Stages of Monger Development posted by XMan on September 21, 2000 at 09:18:50:

Xman: I just turned 50, so that probably makes me "older" than you. As an adverb, "much" (as in "much older") adds very little except to make me feel bad. As for your query, well, we each have to find our own way to work on ourselves. It varies with each person, and with one's age and experience. I seriously doubt I could have approached TJ in a "spiritual" way as a 25 year old, with hormones raging and libido on fire.

When I was younger, I gulped experiences like a glass of wine, without even tasting them. My goal was to accumulate experiences. Now I sip the wine and appreciate the taste, the smell, the effort it took to make it, the sparkle of the wineglass, my good fortune to have the wine. My goal is simply to fully experience the moments as they come.

One of the great mistakes I made as a youth, and which many people still make, is assuming that there are "spiritual" moments or "spiritual" activities, and then there is "everything else"--your "ordinary" life. In reality, there are only moments, in an endless string. You make of them what you will--spiritual or not--by your choices at every moment.

So my "goal" in TJ is not to "do" anything in particular, but simply to be aware of the moment and fully involved in it, whether that moment is in the blaring noise and hurlyburly of Adelita's, or in the quiet ecstacy of the bedrooms upstairs.

Ironically, I have met at least one TJ chica (so I assume there are others), who herself is seriously dedicated to a spiritual tradition. Imagine: stiletto heels, skintight pants, incredible BJ, and a firm grip on the dharma. We've had some fascinating discussions about spiritual training. We've also had some fantastic sex. It's not that I was suprised to meet a fellow spiritual traveler while in TJ. I just didn't expect to be sharing the same bed with her. Ha! Que raro, no?

Matiz

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Re: Stages of Monger Development

Posted by XMan on September 21, 2000 at 16:33:36:

In Reply to: Re: Stages of Monger Development posted by Matiz on September 21, 2000 at 14:31:39:

Very good, Matiz. You've solved part of the puzzle. What would be the next step...? lol Budoka
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So there ya have it! There were some later discussions of the stages... This is one of those perennial topics, I think.

I'm thinking of trying to come up with my own version of the stages, including and transcending earlier thinking... Does that sound grandiose enough? More soon...

When we talk about the "Stages of Monger Development," we are really talking about a number of things:

--Stages of Culture Shock
(starting with the romantic, naive honeymoon phase of being in a new, highly stimulating culture)

--Stages of Identity Development
(starting with the romantic, naive "pre-encounter" phase, devoid of challenging, illusion-shattering, reality-based, bonafide experiences. Devoid of reality checks.

--Stages of Addiction and Recovery
(starting with "precontemplative" life in the candy store. It is a naive position because one acts without seriously considering WHY one is here, or changing ones [often destructive] behaviors. The psychology of unmet needs and self-medication)

--Stages of skill development and self-efficacy
(starting with naive views about working girls; naive views about what makes them happy and turns them on. Naive views about what is possible or can be expected from them.)

Ah, well. This can all wait for another day, when my internet addiction is worse than it is now.

...and
--Stages of Spiritual Development, starting with a naive and automatic filtering of experience. heh, heh, heh...

dogster

Dogster,

Thanks for bumping this. I liked reading it and would have missed it otherwise.

I wonder if the results of Milkman's latest poll "Dating a Working Girl" are at all related to the stages. The latest results are:

I have a relationship now with a working girl - 20 votes (32%)
I had one and it didn't work out - 9 votes (14%)
I am looking for one - 5 votes (8%)
I have enough problems already - no - 7 votes (11%)
I just pump and leave thank you - 20 votes (32%)

Interesting that the first and last options have equal adherents. Are the pump and dump guys mostly in the early stages and the relationship guys largely in the later stages? Makes sense to me.

Back in Philosophy 101 or wherever I learned about Maslow’s Heirarchy of Needs. Thanks to the Internet, an explanation was easily found and copied and pasted below.

Is there a correlation between mongering stages and Maslow’s hierarchy? I think so. I know there is for me. I’ve gone from eating a different piece of candy (so to speak) each zona visit to satisfy my physiological needs, through the safety needs by establishing a stable and consistent behavior that made me a member of the “mongering” brotherhood, through the love needs by developing “favorite” relationships where my needs for friendship and love, shallow as they are, are fulfilled, through the esteem needs, these gals really appreciate what I spend most of my waking hours doing – making a damn good buck, and finally to the self-actualization level – becoming the foot loosest and fancy freest bachelor alive. The sweet life – la dulce vida

ldvee

Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs

Physiological Needs

Physiological needs are the very basic needs such as air, water, food, sleep, sex, etc. When these are not satisfied we may feel sickness, irritation, pain, discomfort, etc. These feelings motivate us to alleviate them as soon as possible to establish homeostasis. Once they are alleviated, we may think about other things.

Safety Needs

Safety needs have to do with establishing stability and consistency in a chaotic world. These needs are mostly psychological in nature. We need the security of a home and family. However, if a family is dysfunction, i.e., an abusive husband, the wife cannot move to the next level because she is constantly concerned for her safety. Love and belongingness have to wait until she is no longer cringing in fear. Many in our society cry out for law and order because they do not feel safe enough to go for a walk in their neighborhood. Many people, particularly those in the inner cities, unfortunately, are stuck at this level. In addition, safety needs sometimes motivate people to be religious. Religions comfort us with the promise of a safe secure place after we die and leave the insecurity of this world.

Love Needs

Love and belongingness are next on the ladder. Humans have a desire to belong to groups: clubs, work groups, religious groups, family, gangs, etc. We need to feel loved (non-sexual) by others, to be accepted by others. Performers appreciate applause. We need to be needed. Beer commercials, in addition to playing on sex, also often show how beer makes for camaraderie. When was the last time you saw a beer commercial with someone drinking beer alone?

Esteem Needs

There are two types of esteem needs. First is self-esteem which results from competence or mastery of a task. Second, there's the attention and recognition that comes from others. This is similar to the belongingness level, however, wanting admiration has to do with the need for power. People who have all of their lower needs satisfied, often drive very expensive cars because doing so raises their level of esteem. "Hey, look what I can afford-peon!"

Self-Actualization

The need for self-actualization is "the desire to become more and more what one is, to become everything that one is capable of becoming." People who have everything can maximize their potential. They can seek knowledge, peace, esthetic experiences, self-fulfillment, oneness with God, etc. It is usually middle-class to upper-class students who take up environmental causes, join the Peace Corps, go off to a monastery, etc.

Ahh, yes, Maslow fits here well. Maslow--brilliant, arrogant, insightful.

Dogster
"Hey look what I can afford, peon!"

Ahh, yes, Maslow fits here well. Maslow--brilliant, arrogant, insightful.

Dogster
"Hey look what I can afford, peon!"

One problem with Milky's poll:
He forgot to include "all of the above" as a choice.

Theory Z works better. Maslow has no motivators once basic needs are satisfied. There is no utility function for extra sex within Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

Ahhh, verrry interesting, yessss.

I might add that Theory Z is in fact Maslow's theory, which he developed toward the end of his life. (Others have elaborated upon the original theory). Maslow proposed three models: Theory X: Understanding of people motivated by deficiency needs and neurotic symptoms. Theory Y: Motivated by drives to self-actualization (grappling with the "real" problems of life such as the existential issues for which there are no perfect solutions). Theory Z: Person aligned with transcending values.

Gotta send all this blood in my brain south. Perhaps I'll hit the Zona Norte tonight and ponder these issues.

Dogster

The Zona is obviously a place with transcending values. Have you read Ouchi's work (U of C)?

I've heard of it, read some brief summaries of it. I thought it mostly had to do with extending Theory Z to workplace motivation. Good stuff? Is he at Cal Berkeley? (U of C?)

Although the classical position that the "unexamined life is not worth living" is certainly true, it's corollary, "the unlived life is not worth examining", is equally valid.
Most people lack either the opportunity or the will to examine their desires and fantasies fully. This hobby of ours provides a chance to examine both.
Actually it fits well into more than one of Mazlow's catagories. Since unlimited sexual access to attractive young females is a direct expression of success, the hobby satisfies esteem needs. In like manner, an enthusiastic exploration of one's sexual nature and capabilities can satisfy the self-actualization need.
In reference to the stages,it seems that those who enter in with a degree of self awareness and dedication naturally progress from a purely hedonistic slant into a more Epicurean one. The quality of the experience becomes more important than the quantity. Generally, one must go through the earlier stage in order to transcend it, but the progression from gormond to gormet is a natural one. It is not for nothing that the Tantrists believe that the left-hand path (sexual exploration)can be almost equal to meditation for achieving enlightenment. Of course, one can deepen the experience by following each sexual experience with a period of reflexion. I do this coupled with journaling and it has been very valuable for enriching my experiences.
I would like to offer my thanks to those reponsible for this thread. Great stuff. A refreshing break from "and then I flipped her over and gave it to her in the ass."

Did 3 chicas tonight. Now I'm reflecting on it.