It has taken me some time to finally get the courage to post this message, but I believe that the points that it presents will ring true to the majority of us and may aid us in seeing the reality of our actions.

First, we must ask ourselves what roles we play in the lives of these girls that we so easily label and secondly, determine what roles they play in ours.

Maybe I should begin by explaining my history and then provide my thoughts on the topic. I was born here in the US of Mexican parents and since the age of about 16 lived on and off all over the country of Mexico (mostly to study) and the US. I understand, perhaps better than the majority, the culture and the beliefs of the average Mexican citizen and take these beliefs for my own.

I don't believe that I have a right to pass judgment on anyone for the paths that they choose to pursue in their lives, esp. since I too have chosen to partake in similar ventures (i.e. visiting the Zona), but I do believe that we need to stop if not for just one moment and ask ourselves if we are not only trying to kid our consciences into believeing that what we are doing is actually a noble "hobby" or as the majority of the US population perceives a degradation of an entire culture.

For us to really be able to analyze our roles in this "scene" we must first think of what we are accomplishing and then ask ourselves what we think we are accomplishing. To me, it has always been the obvious, sex and a good time (beer, dancing, beautiful girls), but once this has lost its novelty, do we then try and convince ourselves that we are actually "changing" the lives of these girls by providing them with $ and material goods that they could never attain?

Herein lies the problem. I have found myself actually believing that I am a "white knight" of sorts and now find myself carrying a sort of air about me that makes me in my mind better than these girls and the avg. person who finds themselves in the Zona.

Sure, I have benefitted greatly from education and have never had to want for anything, but does this give me the right to, in an indirect way, own these girls, be it for an hour or a day?
Sitting here reading these posts, I see constant referrals to the possesiveness of some of the posters in reference to their "chicas especiales". These girls are not ours; they are on lease to us for a specific amount of time. They are under no delusion as to our objectives. They know what we want and most of us our aware of what they want. These girls do not go home to their families and think about us nor do they possess the feelings that I so often see conveyed in these pages. They are prostitutes plain and simple. Their very existence is for the pleasure of their clients. Despite their actions or words, we are nothing more than "clientes" and in their eyes we are their only way out of economic desperation.

I am not sure if any of what I am saying is making any sense, but I have found myself more and more trying to rationalize my trips to TJ and these are the realizations that I have arrived at.

Certainly, the money that we spend helps these girls and their families. I am not denying this, but we must understand that this money is only good for buying a physical act, not a person or their feelings.

I am afraid that I have seen the lives of too many shattered by addictions to various vices, and this is no exception. We must step back and check ourselves back into reality once and awhile. You may not like what you have become but it is never too late to slow it down.

Lastly, I am not condemning anyone on this board for what they believe or do. The majority of you seem like a super group of guys to me. I wish you all the best of luck and I hope that part of what I have written has awoken a part of you that didn't know existed. If it did, then I have succeeded. Enjoy what you choose to do, but be careful, "excess is a silent killer'.

Best wishes always,
El Genio

Sounds like your having an attack of conscience,that's ok,remember though, we are all not in the same place at the same time.
Sex is an inherent urge,were born with it,just like eating or breathing it is necessary to insure the propagation of the race.
WHO WE HAVE sex with and why is a choice born of environmental influences.Personally I suffer no delusions that I'm helping anyone in a altruistic sense,it's simply what most interactions are between humans,a trade,emotional,fiscal,or otherwise each party has to get something from the other that they perceive as equal or better than what they are giving in order for the process to repeat.

I agree with Senorpanocha, there is no guilt to be had. If a chica picks up a vice like drugs, it's not the john's fault.
I complete business transactions in ZN. I buy the chica's drinks for companionship in hope of a better session en la cama. Then I rent chicas body upstairs.
They get a fee for all this time with me. I treat them with respect and dignity and always respect their boundaries.
I have zero effect on any chica's life, fav or no fav.
It's up to the chicas to improve their lot in life. Some desire to go to college or start a business, others have no plan and will just become jaded prostitutes.
Several chicas tell me they are dumb and have no choice in life. I disagree with them but that's the extent of my contribution.

El Genio,

In my view, I play the role of client to las chicas. However, I also believe that as with my interactions with any other human, I also have the potential role of friend. By this, I mean nothing more than that I MAY become someone with whom una chca can share some of her thoughts and feelings. I MAY also become someone who can encourage her to follow her dreams and pursue her goals. To me, this is more than a client or acquaintance, but far short of the role of novio. It is that she is una amiga especial (a special friend) to me, and hopefully, I am un amigo especial to her. This is NOT to say that every chica is mi amiga especial. Just as any social interaction, some people become our casual friends, and some do not.

Las chicas play the first and primary role for me of a professional provider of a service. Some, MAY become more than this to me. Some of las chicas are people whom I consider casual friends. These chicas are people whom I talk with and with whom I share superficial pleasantries. Other chicas become more significant friends with me. They share some of their personal life with me like family situations, life goals, dreams, etc. I may share similar info with them. In this, our interaction is not unlike any relationship or friendship in any other social situation. BUT, these differing social interactions are in addition to, and separate from, the professional relationship we share.

Like you, I feel that I have no place in judging las chicas. Each of them are in the business for a different reason, and it is not my place in life to lay judgement on how they live their life. Similarly, I do not believe that las chicas have cause to judge us for our participation in this hobby, so long as we are respectful and courteous of las chicas.

You will note that I used the word hobby. I'm not characterizing the activity in which we partake as noble, but by the generally accepted definition of the word hobby, what we do is just that. A hobby.

None of us are necessarily better than any of las chicas. Nor are any of them by definition any better than are we. Each of us is an individual. Both groups have good and bad people in them. And, just because we are fortunate enough to have been allowed to achieve a higher level of socioeconomic status does not mean that we are better than are they. However, the converse is also true. Several of las chicas make a LOT more $$ than many of us hobbyists, but that does not make them better than us, nor does it make them better than any of their peers.

Referring to una chica as "mi amiga espceial" is no more than a reference to her status in my social viewpoint. She is a 'special friend' to me. I'm not sure how you could construe that to mean that I feel like I have some type of ownership over this lady. I do not, nor do I have any intent of implying otherwise. I don't own her, nor does she own me. Often you will read stories about 'favoritas' getting a bent out of shape over a guy who goes up with another chica. I don't believe that this is fair for any chica to do. HOWEVER, it is also wrong for any of us to flaunt going up with another chica. We should be cognizant of the feelings of a favorita, and take reasonable efforts to avoid making her look bad in the eyes of her friends. (there have been numerous threads on this issue, so I'll leave it at this)

The money that we pay to these ladies may help them in their lives, and it may not. Many of these chicas get caught up in drugs etc. and much of this is a simple result of a person with limited social skills and/or education having an abundance of cash on hand, as the result of a profession that causes them personal emotional pain. Lots of professional athletes in the US are in the same boat and go down the same path. More often than not the drugs are a diversion from the inner pain.

But, there are also chicas who save their money, invest it well, and retire from working at a fairly young age. Some chicas go back to their hometowns and open family businesses. Neither of these groups could hope to do these things through almost any other means. They take advantage of an opportunity.

I also agree with you that there is the very real possibility of La Zona becoming an obsession or an addiction for some hobbyists. A pause, a reality check and a personal evaluation of priorities is never a bad thing. One thing that many of us should do is to evaluate what our opportunity cost is for indulging in our hobby. Just as the guy down the street who spends a ton of money on hot-rodding his car must evaluate where that car fits into his life, so too must we evaluate where La Zona fits into each of our lives. BUT, I feel that you are of the opinion that many, if not most, of us hobbyists are addicted to La Zona, and I'd Disagree with you about this. (Just MHO)


StrikeEagle

yo,

i have to agree with strikeeagle because i too see my "relationship" with the chicas as a "client- service provider" type of relationship. it may seem clinical to think of sex as a service, especially since many of us were taught that sex was something "special" that you do when you're married. for me that illusion faded when i was an adolescent. whether engaging in prostitution is a "bad" thing is up to the individual to decide.

if you have a moral dillemma with the zona, then my advice is to quit. but take notice that many of us do not believe in some sort of universal morality that "outlaws" prostitution.

if you "really" want to effect change in the lives of these women, then you need to change the economic situation in MX. however, even if they could make a decent wage with a "standard" job, many would still turn tricks because its so fucking lucrative.

honestly, looking back on my zona-asia monger conquests, i see them as life experiences that i wouldn't trade. i don't abuse the chicas or do things that they don't want to. as long as everything is consensual and she's of age to make that decision. then lets party!!!

csq

Perhaps you have misunderstood my point, maybe even I have misunderstood it. What I was basically trying to say was that I see a frightening commonpoint in all that I read on here. It is that these girls' entire worth is in their ability to pleasure us.

I guess, in essence, that is their purpose; but we must never forget that they are human beings just like us and reducing their existence to scores of their ability to recreate an act that, in its most basic sense is for populating the planet, is insane.

I, once again, am not attempting to pass judgement on those who participate in these activities; I am only saying that we must begin to see these girls for what they really are. We do not have to lower ourselves to the level of juveniles and begin to rate these girls on the superficial basis of their "skills". I do understand our desires as I, too, have enjoyed the company of many of these girls, but on the same token we have no right to debase them and reduce them to something that is not human.

I suppose that I have no right either to share these opinions on here, as the majority of you are quite content with what is said and done; but I do believe that starting to see these girls for what they are in a society where they are provided no alternatives is making us a part of the problem.

Your reply may be that if they had other opportunities they wouldn't choose this lifestyle. You must understand the historical importance of prostitution in Mexico. It is accepted for the most part, but as Mexico rapidly progesses in its Western (i.e American) beliefs the tolerance for this institution is diminishing. Maybe not in the next five years, but soon, it will not exist.

I am not a born-again Christian nor am I trying to convince anyone that enjoying the company of a beautiful 20 year old is a crime equatable to murder. I am simply stating that we are sadly taking advantage of a society's most weak, their youth. They are an entire group of single (mostly) young girls with no chance for advancement nor any chance of providing for their families and we are providing them with the one thing that they cannot easily earn, money. Our mere participation is not the crime; it is the derogatory remarks that are made regarding their services. Remember, they are not new cars or TV sets and this is not Consumer Digest; so why compare human beings. They do their best in a not so perfect world. The least we could do is allow them to practice their "trade" in peace and provide them the decency we would the other service providers in our lives.

These girls are just that, girls. And they deserve more respect than what I see posted here by some.

Please take my remarks for what they are, observations. You all will no doubt continue with your "hobby", but I for one have made the realization that I am not helping anyone and the pain that is purveyed without any respect for humankind by our actions is completely unnecessary.

I wish you all luck in your adventures and hope that you all stay safe. I have spent many years in and around TJ and have seen what can happen- BE CAREFUL. I will continue to read and possibly even post on here- if you will have me.

Thanks for allowing me to rant.

El Genio

Elgenio

I agree with your points but this site is for guys like me who are on a limited budget. And you're mistaken, part of this site is Consumer Digest.
I do give a lot of reviews with scores but I do not score chicas as human being just as sex providers.
At my work I do get reviewed once a year for my salary adjustment, whether I get a 1 or a 10 does not make a jugment of me as a person just of my skills level or work efficiency.
$100 per trip spent on a nice chica or a lousy lay is the difference between having a smile in your face or becoming jaded.
I am a human being too.

IMO, your thoughts are valid and commendable. The reason for reviews of girls, IMO, is not to degrade them, but to let other mongers know if they are good at their profession. Some of the chicas don't provide good service at all for many. This is not to say they are less than human or to pass judgement on them as people, we just don't recommend them as providers for specific reasons. Most chicas get good reviews, or if nothing else, we know what kind of services they are willing to provide and not. Of course, YMMV, but the review gives us sort of a consumers guide of what to expect.

I believe in treating the chicas with respect, as do most mongers. After all, if we didn't, the session would probably suck.

Celtics

“This is not Consumer Digest; so why compare human beings”

Pman is right this site is in part a consumer digest. Every day we compare the goods and services that various people (all human beings) provide us. Such as artists, barbers, tailors, etc… Most employers have some sort form of annual or smi-annual evaluation for there workers.

The girls in La Zona are service providers some give better service then others and this forum allows us to make comparisons so that we can get the most “bang” for our $$$.

The point of reviewing the performance of a particular girl is to evaluate her “job skills” not if she is a good or bad person in general.

Dimone

El Genio
What are you trying to say?That we should stop paying these girls so they make no money for themselves or their families.The average girl in CC makes about 700 dollars a week superstars make much more that is tax free money.Yes they have expenses but that is like making 1200 dollars a
week here.You should also read a thread that(A}
wrote.In it he writes about the girls talking about and rating us,this is true they do that.They come downstairs after and talk about us the same way we talk about them.Many of them can't believe how stupid we are.Mahogany used to tell me she had one or two guys fall in love with her every week.She was and is not the only one.
So I ask you,who is really doing what to whom?Who is taking advantage of whom?Who is laughing at whom?Finally who is hurting anyone?

El Genio, I must say that I can understand most of your points very well. The problem mostly arises from the unique social interaction between prostitute and customer.
It is on the first glance a degradation of a women to an object of sexual satisfaction. As we all know, this is not the whole truth. After a few months being a monger one realizes that there are more dimensions to this.
The girls and we customers may rationalize as much as we want, most of them are ashamed of their profession and at least I went trough a period of intense soal-searching before I became the monger RX. Like most of the girls, my friends and family does not know what I am doing.
Most of us mongers get sucked into the lives of the girls more than I first expected it.
In the movies the whore never kisses and keeps her private info to herself. Even in US stripclubs you almost never will learn details about the true private life of the stripper. This is so much different in TJ, and the one thing that confuses me the most.
You just cant stop it: you learn their kids names, laugh, chat with them and there is a relationship formed which is not as simple as some may think.
Yes, it would be easy to say: "I just rent their bodies for an hour or so". From what I hear from guys I saw in TJ and what I hear on this bord, plus my own limited experience the chicas and us are closer together than we may want to admit.
One thing that always surprises me is the unpredictability of what happens in TJ. One girl invited me to her house and made sure that the neighboors wont see me. Me always expecting to be either mugged by her boyfriend or confronted with her crying children to please give them money. But no, she just wanted to prove to me that not all mx coffee sucks (my point, that mx coffee is dirtwater was put to rest that night).The cynics amongst us will say that the girls just provide this as their routine to get more money from us and a I thought that as well, but it simply is not the truth.
I agree to treat them with respect, just because I am treated with more respect than I ever expected from a girl who "rents her body". But I also think that most of us on this board already do exactly that.
I also think that we should limit the personal desciptions of the ladies and the services they provide. As I posted earlier, these posts are in general useless, since YMMV all the time and create distrust between us and the chicas.

Hey guys- my post on chicas grading us was just a joke, although much truth was probably inherent in it. I read these posts and am amazed by the attitudes of the mongers, they range from newby excitement to world weary jaded contempt. I was a newby 2 years ago, and before long fell hard for a chica. I started reading the RS posts with my heart in my throat, waiting to see someone write about "my girl" ( and still do)but either everybody loves and respects her as much as I do, or I'm the only one who thinks she's that hot. I started out looking at her as a prostitute first,woman second, and person third, but after extended sessions where she let me see the person behind the face and body, the order is reversed. (and also why I'm still head over heels).I get jealous as hell when I read posts about guys having amiga especials, or chicas falling in love with them, my chica told me in no uncertain terms during a recent session that I am only a client to her, and that's all I've ever been. That still hurts like hell, and I don't beleive it's completely true, we were special to each other at one point but between me pushing her for a commitment(okay, I said it) and then totally disrespecting her one night, I'm lucky that she still speaks to me,let alone allowing me to touch her. I want nothing but the best for her, I hope she can leave this life behind sooner than later, I'm already seeing telltale signs of things getting to her after just 3-4 years at AB. It's gonna break my heart completely when she walks out of my life forever,but that's my problem.Just my 2 centavos.
A

Amamenena,

Geez, your story fits me to a T!! I've been seeing ofav for a year now. She's got me up to $100 an hour. Has a novio at home. Is a fav of others and she hints about them to make me jealous I guess. And the beat goes on....If I didn't love banging her so much I'd get rid of her even though I do care about her. Never thought I'd get in a situation like I did (falling for one) but now that I know about her novio I just have a good time with her and try to leave it at that. As she told me "it's just about the money..."

Well I started out kidding about "las maestras" (the teachers) at "La Universidad de Adelitas" (The University of Adelitas). And over time it has become a very powerful and useful metaphor. I go down there expecting to learn something from them, looking for it, and most often find it. One of my amigas especiales really taught me the importance of "comunicacion" (communication). We're very straight with each other and consequently have "no problemas" (no problems). We both know what's happening with each other and don't have to waste the time, agony, and bandwidth trying to figure it out. It's not necessary to attempt the impossible task of reading someone's mind and intentions across a cultural gap. We simply ask - "comunication". She taught me that it avoids a lot of problems. Interacting with her I've developed a very useful habit. When I'm trying to decide whether to tell her something or not, I choose the path with the most communication. It's incredible how much b.s. this avoids. If I'm at the point where I want some variety, I tell her. I've had great fun WORKING WITH HER instead of trying to work around her.
For me interacting with las senoras reminds me of looking into a mirror - you get back what you put out.

The winter term has started at La Universidad de Adelitas and adult education classes are open now. :o)

Regards,
RickFeliz

Elgenio:

If I understand your post, you seem to believe that we "hobbyists" are exploiting these girls. But, I'm not clear as to whether or not you're still an active participant.

El Genio
Read the the posts of Amamenena,Sayhey and yes even me.Once again I ask you this question.Who is
exploiting whom?

Amamenena,
It's impossible to not develop some kind of affection for these girls if you go often enough. I've been smitten myself, and it goes away after awhile ( in my case, it took about a year-and-a-half for me to accept my "status"). In my book some of these women are truly fascinating. My former "flame" will always be a source of wonder to me and if I didn't see her for 30 years and bumped into her somewhere in the world, I'd still be able to throw my arm around her shoulder and say" How ya doin',pal?"... And I can't say that I have that sentiment for a lot of the girlfriends (straight) that I've had....
KRICO

Brother Rick,
No offense, my brother, but this sounds like a pretty basic lesson to have had to go all the way to TJ to learn. Seriously, nobody never told you about communication before that?

ALL THESE WOMAN RATE US !!!!!!!!
Being an ex-lead guitar player (musician) from bands where extreme hotties used to SEARCH ME out...I used to hang with and date MANY hot strippers from the U.S.A. some of Playboy caliber...some with friends in Playboy. After sitting in with 4,6 sometimes 8 dancers having breakfast till 3 or 4 A.M. I have learned a lot about trophy woman of the night and how they WORK males. My old roommate an extremely hot latina would meet guys in her club and eat them alive. Doctors and lawyers supplied most of her cash. These "Sugar Daddies" would buy her all kinds of shit from diamond rings to furs to trips..blah blah blah. Her favorite guys to manipulate were construction workers, who she would mold like puddy until they were at her house upgrading her kitchen or building a deck or what ever for basically nothing. NONE of these dudes ever got to taste her. They were all RATED on what she could get from them. She would relay this info to her girlfriends and they would all do what they do best. I used to sit back and just laugh as I watched these babe magnets brainwash the most hardened men. After seeing the damage these girls left in there wake over the years I left the scene, because I basically accomplished everything I set out to(Gigs,babes,parties) and jammin in a band just wasn't fun anymore, to many liars,thieves,druggies etc.. It was my latina (roommate) that got me hooked on exotic woman though. Now all I am interested in is tasty Latina and ASIAN bunnys. Only foreign woman interest me now. American woman do not have the look or attitude I am looking for. So here I am, once again a virgin(newbie)looking forward to experiencing all the fun and learning the in's and out's of the Zona and Mexican culture. I am a monger enjoying life, foreign woman and import sports-cars. Mongers do not doubt your self worth..being American men we are the most sought out males on earth!!! So live it up and party, TJ, Bangkok, Angles city, Manila, Jakarta, New Deli, Hong Kong, Tokyo.....we rule.

Love these heart felt emotional posts. Anyone who thinks that mongers (what a disgusting name) only view their prey as numbers on a rating scale should read some of the near poetry written here and elsewhere by guys who have fallen hard for some pro in some strip club or bar or brothel.

I refuse to believe that the typical guy is only interested in getting his rocks off with some trophy fuck. EVERYONE is looking for that special woman who connects with them at some deep personal level. It doesn't mean marrying her or trying to save her. It just means having someone warm and welcoming with whom you can feel at ease.

Face it. You get your best orgasms with your own hand. So why look elsewhere? It is easy to mock the guy who pays up front as a sucker or an exploiter. But look at the alternatives and see how they are working.

Several days ago a strip dancer told me after I complimented her on her dance and what it did to me that she sees a part of her job to satisfy men in a way that they are not receiving at home. A real pro.

Brother TF,
WAIT A MINUTE, WAIT JUST A MINUTE!! Best orgasms from your own hand?!?! You GOTTA be kiddin', brother! There's a joke here I'm not gettin', right?

Elgenio wrote:

I, once again, am not attempting to pass judgement on those who participate in these activities; I am only saying that we must begin to see these girls for what they really are. We do not have to lower ourselves to the level of juveniles and begin to rate these girls on the superficial basis of their "skills". I do understand our desires as I, too, have enjoyed the company of many of these girls, but on the same token we have no right to debase them and reduce them to something that is not human.

I suppose that I have no right either to share these opinions on here, as the majority of you are quite content with what is said and done; but I do believe that starting to see these girls for what they are in a society where they are provided no alternatives is making us a part of the problem.

Your reply may be that if they had other opportunities they wouldn't choose this lifestyle. You must understand the historical importance of prostitution in Mexico. It is accepted for the most part, but as Mexico rapidly progesses in its Western (i.e American) beliefs the tolerance for this institution is diminishing. Maybe not in the next five years, but soon, it will not exist.

I am not a born-again Christian nor am I trying to convince anyone that enjoying the company of a beautiful 20 year old is a crime equatable to murder. I am simply stating that we are sadly taking advantage of a society's most weak, their youth. They are an entire group of single (mostly) young girls with no chance for advancement nor any chance of providing for their families and we are providing them with the one thing that they cannot easily earn, money. Our mere participation is not the crime; it is the derogatory remarks that are made regarding their services. Remember, they are not new cars or TV sets and this is not Consumer Digest; so why compare human beings. They do their best in a not so perfect world. The least we could do is allow them to practice their "trade" in peace and provide them the decency we would the other service providers in our lives.

These girls are just that, girls. And they deserve more respect than what I see posted here by some.

Please take my remarks for what they are, observations. You all will no doubt continue with your "hobby", but I for one have made the realization that I am not helping anyone and the pain that is purveyed without any respect for humankind by our actions is completely unnecessary.

Bravo and well writen Elgenio!!! I happened to come across this post by chance. I have had similar feelings for a quite a while myself.

It offends me that some like to dehumanize and degrade these girls. From the tone of some of the posts it makes me think there are quite a few gringos out there that walk the earth without a heart. I wonder if the murderer of the street girl Jessica reads these posts?

Elgenio's effort here was sublime. It reminds me of Plato's allegory of the cave. Too bad that most of those who responded didn't quite get what he was expressing.

Milkman once wrote regarding the chicas drug use: "If I had to go to bed with you guys I'd take drugs too". Well done and

Amor a la Mexicana, lancer

Interesting thread, thanks to Lancer for re-discovering it.

The world's oldest profession; i.e., the first profession. And if there ever is a last profession, it will be prostitution. I've always been mystified about why it is considered, well, evil. I don't get it. What is more desireable than pleasure?