anyone ever try to meet a chica by personal ads
etc?

Funny you should mention it.My last two long term relationship's came from the personals.Been three years since the last one ended and I discovered the zona.I met loads of chicas,some pretty high caliber,some not.I could write a book on the subject.

I could also write a book on the subject. I met fantastic women via personal ads a few years ago and had a great year long relationship as a result. Then suddenly the personals ads stopped working. That was maybe a year ago. Now I find it a hell hole, not a lot of women, not a lot of very INTERESTING women, and women who are very flaky, they contact you and then don't follow up. My best results were with print ads in the local free "alternative" newspaper. Results less good with Yahoo.com and Match.com. I'd really like to hear if this is anybody else's experience, or if this is just me?

A few years ago, because of frequent trips to Sacramento, I tried a few ads in the Sacramento News and Review - making it clear I was just looking for a casual fling. I met four ladies, got laid on the first meeting with two of them and stuck with one of them for about a year.

If I hadn't discovered TJ I'd probably still be doing it.

Question - Were you guys posting or responding to the ads?

Interesting that this should come up now. I also could write a book on internet personals, but I haven't ever had any positive experiences, so it wouldn't be a very useful book. I find that for me, despite all reports otherwise, they just don't succeed. I dutifully devoted about four months to trying to get some of the better services to work for me, but couldn't get around one major stumbling block -- that the people on the other end of the ads and responses were really losers. Not very intelligent, and not very attractive. The best, in terms of looks alone, that I got, was somewhere near to a 3 or 4 out of 10 on your "general appeal" scale. I was quite surprised at the dearth of viable partners, given the myriad stories I've heard about happy teenie-boppers rutting with glee. Evidently I was going about it wrong. Couple that difficulty with the problems of large amounts of Spam ads, and with the non-intuitive, slow, and strictly mouse-based (it IS the web, after all) interfaces, and it just wasn't worth my while. I'd love for one of the major services to offer to let me just download portions of their raw database so I could crunch it at home, but nooooo, they gotta be all "user friendly." Grr.

I've actually hooked up with a couple young, very horney and very FAT latinas through the Yahoo personals. If there's no picture and they admit to being "slightly overweight" expect a Zeppelin. I'm currently writing to one 22 year old who's about as ranchy as they come in terms of what she writes, and nothing I write phases this gal. Unfortunately I let my hopes get up that she might be somewhat attractive, when she finally sent me a picture my first thought was "yikes, run for the hills!". Dispite what we may wish, attractive young women just don't need to post ads to meet men, and the few that do get HUNDREDS of responses.

So ... how DO you hook up? (I know. Loaded question.) Anyone? Balam, I know you have lots of good advice ...

My experience has been that guys do better posting. The ladies that post get so many responses the odds are stacked against you. If you post and get a few responses at least you know they are interested in you.

I posted an ad (no photo) a couple years ago and got around 14 or so responses, about 2/3 turned out to be someone directing me to a paysite so I could look at their photos and "chat". Some were dam persistent, "Why haven't I heard from you??". The others were either very unattractive or high maintenance emotional basket cases. It helps if your not to picky. Now I just hit on fat horny chicanas with big tits. They always say their looking for a relationship and not a boodie call but really most are happy just getting laid by an in shape guy who isn't to repulsive.
I do however have a friend thats marrying a gal he met over the internet so it does happen.

Not advertising is like winking in the dark, "nobody knows you're there"... Perhaps personal ads are a little too direct..

I've run ads for "models" when I had time to do the photog thing and met tons of guapa chicas... Had a lengthy relationship with a 19 yr old college girl back in 95/96.. I helped her through college and she, well, she just helped me...

Ran an ad last year for a female assistant (iron, clean, shop, cook, etc.) and must have received 60 replys.. Unfortunately, I was too busy with work to interview very many or to even have them over to help..

Point is that you first need a "reason" other than being single & horny, to meet young ladies.. Try the Spanish papers similar to Penny Saver but not quite..

Many are advertising to do massage (out call).. I would avoid those, but... I've had some great massage (I train) from my model and housekeeper friends...

Catch my drift? Be creative.. Go to a hispanic oriented flea market, or an area of town that looks more like Mexico than Mexico.. Many chicas are stuck in low pay retail clerk jobs.. I've recruited little "helpers" there as well..

If you are shy, just have some little flyers printed up in espanol describing what you are in need of..

Buena suerte,
AG

I don't get this whole concept, Altogringo. I understand what you're saying about the idea of advertising for models and therefore ending up with lots of replies to your ads. That much makes sense. The "creativity" and "purpose" points are very well taken.

But could you enlighten me a bit further? Once you DO have those replies, WHAT THEN? I have on occasion met large quantities of attractive chicas, but I've never banged anyone in a non-provider relationship. I'm fit and intelligent, have a good career ... is there some portion of the puzzle I'm missing?

I don't want this to be a total whine-case I'm-so-pathetic thread, so maybe just a brief rendition of what ELSE it takes to actually LAND the chick or chica, other than just getting her to RESPOND to an ad. The NEXT steps, are also steps I'm confused about.

Altogringo,

The only "Pennysaver" type paper I know of in Tijuana is "Opportunidades". (every 2 weeks, 10 pesos) Do you know of others, or of San Diego area papers that are similar, focusing on hispanics ?

Thanks.

Pauncho

BookGuy, each situation is different... Once the chica is in your home/apartment and after she feels comfortable (this could take 2 or 3 visits) just improvise..

I could say just wait for my $5.95 report and my dot com site, hehehe...

Sometimes it starts with pain or stiffness in my shoulders and a little massage... I knew a guy once wh was putting together a collague (spelling) of nothing but photos of breasts.. He advertised for girls over 18 and had them prading through all day.. Almost all were willing to let him shoot them topless, sign a release, etc. as long as their face wasn't in the photos...

Then there is the "shower" shots, sometimes you get hungry, so you go out to eat, catch a movie, go shopping, next thing you know............

Senor Pauncho... I'm in LA and us elclasificado... Add .com and you can see a portion of the adds online... Just start shopping at latino markets you should find the papers...

Also many of these nice little check out girls are worth checking out.. Many welcome part time work... Need an assistant?

Blind leading the blind here ... anyone else notice the irony of posting to a board full of men who pay for sex, asking about how to get sex for free?

Heh, thanks for the advice anyway, Altogringo, but literally none of it seems to make any sense to me. Could you speak in English next time?



I guess it's that "improvise" part that always trips me up. Having never really crossed that hurdle, hurts a bit, and I was hoping you or someone else could be a bit more specific. Not so much, "what line to use" cuz I know "lines" are famous for being useless; but more, what must I be doing wrong? Then again, you weren't ever there, so how would you know? I mean, I HOPE you weren't ever there ...

And what is it with those "shower" shots? What in hell is THAT?

BG, regarding "improvising", pop an adderall some time and see what happens. You might be amazed how big your cohones get... That's been my experience anyway...

MrBillO^™--- ~ I got more pussy than a Tampax... ~

What's adderall ... tell me more!

Shower shot = Photo of chica in shower... If she is too shy for nude, do a wet shot through white T (shirt) with bikini bottom...

You can help dry her off or if she's ready and you are bold enough, you can join her for a little soaping up..

BG, Adderall is the newer medication for ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) - Ritalin being the older drug. Actually, either one should do the trick. It's awesome... It basically "turns your brain on", for lack of a better phrase. If you've ever done crystal, it's similar but less "harsh". Don't let that comparison scare you - if it's safe for 12 year old kids, it's safe for you and me ;-)

Let's put it this way... The first time I did Ritalin, I was basically depressed and shy, so I avoided going out like the Plague. My buddy convinced me to pop a Ritalin, and I was Mr Social. I had people eating out of my hands!! As a matter of fact, I'm on Zoloft now, and it has a similar effect (but much milder), but YMMV BIG TIME with that stuff, and it takes 2-4 weeks to work anyway.

Try an Adderall or a Ritalin sometime. I would suggest trying it with a friend or two first, in some kind of social setting. Get a feel for it before you try to get laid with it. But I went from Mr No-Fun to Game Show Host in 60 minutes. Wheeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!

If it works for you the way it worked for me, you won't have to worry about what to say to the chicas. It will just flow.

The only way you can get Adderall or Ritalin is from a friend, by your own prescription, or importing it from somewhere like Mexico. Canadian pharmacies won't export it to the US because it's a Schedule-II substance - it's an amphetamine.

It's pretty harmless, but you might want to use care if you're prone to anxiety - it is a stimulant, and an amphetamine at that. PMS me if you have any questions. And... have fun!!

Your local druggie, MrBillO^™--- ~ I got more pussy than a Tampax... ~

Geez Louise, Books, I'm not sure if your writing this stuff tongue in cheek or not.

Your asking AG how to take the next step from having a naked or half naked model in your home to getting laid?

How about this:

"Wanna fuck?"

You could probably come up with several hundred different ways to say the same thing, many more polite than the above, but it gets the point across as well as any.

Again, I don't know how serious you are actually being, but it really sounds like you are asking someone for the magical incantation that will begin a sexual interlude when you have a woman available, and there is no such thing.

Bottom line is you have to make a move. Either through words or motion you need to state explicitly what it is you want, and take the gamble that she'll go for it or not. You need to have the ego strength to accept that the response might be "no fuckin' way!"

Sure there are some guys that will get explicit propositions from women in real life (meaning non-pro; ie. sexual advances from women who want to fuck you just cause they want YOU); probably has happened to many on this board (we have many studs in this club, to hear them tell it.) However, that sure as shit has never happened to me in my life and I'm pretty sure never will.

On the other hand, I feel very strongly in retrospect that there have been a number of women in my life either as friends, co-workers, acquaintances, even a date or two, who made their interest "clear" (in their oh-so-subtle womanly way) and the only reason they never became notches is because I never had the balls to make a move. Basically, because they weren't walking around wearing a T-shirt that said, "Give me your hard cock, Shy", I wasn't willing to take even the smallest risk of rejection. (In the case of co-workers, that may be wise, given todays workplace legalities, but generally it is cowardice.) I believe I will always have fear of rejection, but as I get older, I get better.

Now, what is your story? You say you have never banged anyone in a non-provider relationship and for the life of you can't figure out why. You are smart, attractive, bathe periodically, yada yada. . . So, a little more background please. Bottom line, is it that you are taking chances and making passes at broads right and left and getting shut down all the time, in which case there may be cause to review your techniques, or is it that you are not even attempting the plays to begin with (my weakness) in which case the solution is very very simple (and very difficult at the same time, if you know what I mean.)

I hope your situation is the former, because if it is the latter, then I must consider your responses somewhat disingenuous, as you are much too intelligent to seriously NOT know what is lacking. In that case, the difference between us is that I also rarely succeed with chicks because I rarely have the cojones to take the necessary action to score, but at least I admit it.

On the other hand, if as I stated, the issue is that you are making sincere and explicit attempts to connect in an intimate way with women in your life and are constantly being rebuffed, first off accept my apologies for the above accusations, secondly maybe YOU should be telling US what you are doing so we can constructively criticize.

I still think it will come down to that you need to verbally or otherwise express in some fashion the idea "Wanna fuck?". Again, many different ways to get this idea across but it has to be gotten across explicitly whether its asking out loud, making a physical pass, etc. Rule of thumb: Women will never, ever help you out even a little but by responding to your subtleness. Yeah, I fuckin hate that too, but it is a fact of life. On the other hand the rule of the other thumb is that that is the ONLY way they will communicate with you when it comes to initiation of first contact. (Sure, there are exceptions but that is why it is called a rule of thumb.)

Another important point to make surrounding all the above is that you have a VERY LIMITED WINDOW during which you can successfully make the move. If you miss the opportunity it is generally gone forever. The woman's sexual interest in you not only has to occur at the right moment in time, but your decision to take action has to occur at that very moment or the moment passes and all of a sudden, like flicking a light switch their interest in you has evaporated into the ether. You're just supposed to know when. So, god help you if you miss that special momentary eyeblink, or whatever other kind of unnoticeable clue they give you.

Well, this is my serious and revealing response to the questions you raise. I await your reply.

Your Shy friend,

Guy

"You're just supposed to know when."

Well, I guess we agree, it's all about the guy taking responsibility for reading her mind ...

Heh. No, seriously, I understand your point about having to make a move, and I hope I'm doing it. I mean, I THINK I'm doing it ... I don't exactly know why you suggest that I've had half-naked models in my home, but aside from that, I see what you mean. So, umm, no, it's not cowardice. I think I'm an "out there" kinda guy -- most men who actually POST to monger boards regularly, probably are the sort of men who go for the gold when given a chance.

I just wondered if there was something more specific that anyone could tell me, about HOW to make the move. As you say, there are a hundred different ways to communicate your intent ... you might describe 99 or so of them, maybe, so I could see where I'm going wrong?

Hey Mr. Bill: Your comparison of Adderall to crystal was pretty accurate. Your assessment of the risk was not. Amphetamines are Sched II for a reason. If you read the warning which comes with any amphetamine, it will tell you that that prolonged use or high doses can induce psychosis which is can't be distinguished from from schizophrenia(I know this from personal as well as prof. experience. Nearly lost it 1 yr. ago with Adderall and Asenlix, a Mex. upper). The list of physical shit that speed does goes on and on. BTW in someone who has a real case of ADD the speed works paradoxically, so it does not have the same effect on the brain, even a 12 yr. old one. The worst part of it as far as we're concerned is that if you keep using that shit you will get what is known as "crystal dick" which means Little Pepe will stay that way.... LITTLE!
pj

"Well, I guess we agree, it's all about the guy taking responsibility for reading her mind ..."

Well, sure. No point in arguing that. It is one of the primary laws of the universe, along with gravity, and strong and weak atomic forces.
But my point went a little further than that. My implication was "fuck her mind" (figuratively speaking) and then fuck her body (literally speaking). All the second guessing trying to play along with their mind games is the bullshit that paralyzes us. Assuming that we are talking about a potentially eligible partner (i.e., not a first degree relative, your brother's or boss's wife, the woman in the next cubicle who already looks uncomfortable when you stare down her cleavage, etc.) don't bother with the mind-reading, just go for it. I am really bad at practicing what I preach, but nevertheless these facts appear to me to be so self-evident to be a veritable tautology. If we are talking about the ultimate goal being having sex with attractive women, then the only rule is, "If at first you don't succeed. . ." Repetition virtually guarantees success, as long as you have the resilience to deal with the failure along the way, and for most guys there will be more of the latter. However, keep in mind, having sex with non-pro women often means more than simply having sex with them, there is that damn emotion thing; and if we are talking about any kind of relationship issue, all the rules change.

"I don't exactly know why you suggest that I've had half-naked models in my home, but aside from that, I see what you mean."

Sorry, books, I won't play along with the above, cause there you are just being evasive. You know I didn't suggest that you had half-naked models in your home. You know I was referring to Altogringo's scenario of how he hooked up with good-looking young women. And you know that you had written in a previous post about how you understood and appreciated Altogringo's strategies for meeting these women but weren't sure how to take the "next step" which I understood to mean getting better acquainted in a "beast with two backs" sense.

Where I made a jump (perhaps unfairly) was in assuming if you were seriously asking AG how he went from finding and hooking up with these women to having sex with these women, then surely you must be simply failing to take the necessary leap and make the final push for sex to occur in instances when you do have the opportunity. At least, that is my excuse. And no, I've never had half-naked models in my home either, at least never in a non-pro situation. But I have, as I stated earlier, had in hindsight various opportunities to become acquainted with different women throughout my life, and sure wish I had acted on the opportunities more directly.

"most men who actually POST to monger boards regularly, probably are the sort of men who go for the gold when given a chance."

Not sure if I agree. At any rate, I would be an obvious exception to the rule.

Bottom line in this post: My intuition tells me that we are missing part of the story from your book, guy. Not that I think anything you write is insincere, far from it, but rather incomplete. I say this because, I, the self-proclaimed mr. bashful, balless wonder, who can chicken out anytime on just kissing a woman, much less initiating sex, who based on your own description and your writings, is certainly less intelligent than you, uglier than you, in worse physical shape than you, less sociable than you, have had at least a few long-term relationships and a few casual encounters (non-pro) in my life besides my mongering history. So, it just doesn't make sense to me. Makes me think we are missing something. Whether you share with us the denouement of your book, guy, is totally your choice. I'm not trying to pressure you or call you out in any way. but you sure have got me curious. No, I'm not curious, I'm shy,

Guy

BTW, if you feel I am getting too personal, please let me know, or email if preferred.

Another perspective... The reason I began visiting La Zona in Tijuana, in February of last year is that I woke up one morning and realized that I honestly could not remember the last time I had experienced sex with a woman. It was something on the order of 7 or 8 years. It didn't take long to figure out why.

I have many female friends who are sexually attractive. But I value the friendship and wouldn't want to put that at risk. I am in my late 40s and am simply not as horny as the good old days of my teens and 20s. Even if I had the 'moves' I just don't have the energy to pursue women for recreational sex, and I am not interested in an intimate emotional relationship.

And in this society women do not approach men for recreational sex. They may make themselves available sexually, but usually their motives are for something else. I think it is true most of the time that women trade sex for intimacy, and men trade intimacy (or security) for sex. Is my cynicism showing? (Although in a realtionship that involves Love each person brings so much more to the table than just the needs mentioned above.) So where does that leave those of us who are not searching for Love?

Do we lack cojones, or are we realists who want sexual intimacy without going to the trouble (and expense) of seducing women and/or risking our friendships? Or is all this blather just my way of rationalizing the fact that my ego is too fragile to risk rejection? In my case it is definitely some of both.

Bosco: regarding "some of both." You betcha, that's how I often feel about myself.

Shy Guy: I'm understanding, now, how we miscommunicated, not just regarding the idea of having half-naked models in your house (I genuinely had forgotten that episode in this thread and its relation to subsequent comments -- this isn't the only one I'm responding to, here, so forgive me). I don't mind you taking me to task -- go ahead and be personal!

Umm, about all that "good looking" and "physically fit" crap -- well, gee, thanks for the compliments. Did I toot my own horn that way? Didn't mean to. I certainly don't mean to puff myself up in the eyes of the monger online community -- I mean, what good would THAT do me? So, I am getting the impression that you're getting a bit annoyed at the manner in which I overdid my own self-promotion. Sorry if that's the case, hadn't meant to be self-promoting.

Likewise, I'm getting the impression that you're a little annoyed at the manner in which I seem to be, to you, Shy Guy, acting deliberately obtuse. Just "not getting the concept." I have to admit, rereading some of my posts, especially in this thread, the questions do seem a bit disingenuous, as though I were hiding a truth somewhere. Honestly, I'm not hiding anything. I guess I've been corresponding consistently on these issues with a few fellow mongers lots lately, so I'm probably forgetting what I've told to whom.

Bottom line? None of us have answers to "how to lay chicks" or "why women behave the way they do." But I was hoping, genuinely, that you or someone else at this board might have some hints that hadn't occurred to me. I'm looking forward to the day that some real solutions come to mind for me, and can be implemented.

So far, there seem to be three schools of thought.

One, take the bull by the horns. I know I'm that sort of guy on some subjects, and not on others -- we all have our own "confidence zones," so that's not unusual. Your advice is well put in that arena.

Two, try to go after 'em as though you don't care whether or not you get 'em. This seems strangely tautological to me, although I certainly see the utility of a "devil may care" approach. It might suggest, among other things, that the guy is a much desired commodity among other females (hence, he requires no desperation with this one particular female), thus implying she'd better snap him up quick. Sort of "prestige marketing." I think in some ways this is just intelligent self-defense -- playing your cards close to your chest, so as not to lose the tactical advantage; and, not falling in luuuvvvee too quickly, particularly not with someone you haven't had a chance to fully investigate as to whether she'll treat your overly readily offered heart with respect or disdain.

Three, sex and companionship are different things. Women tend to be looking for more of a package-deal as far as relationships go.

Now, I debate item three, there. I do believe that there are young, attractive women of the civilian variety out there in the universe who actually engage in casual recreational sex. For me, the issue here is, that I'd like to be the guy that they engage in it with. I see, quite often, that their recreational sex partners are not so extremely pretty or so extremely rich as to preclude myself from the equation -- or any of a number of other mongers, yourself included Shy Guy, my protestations to utter gorgeousness notwithstanding. Heh.

And I have another point. I have heard some very intelligent people say, that there are essentially two "paths" that you can take with sexually active young women -- you can either play role of potential LOVER, or of potential PROVIDER. With the lover, she fucks you to decide whether or not she wants to fuck you again. Sometimes, against her better instincts, she then begins to engage in a longer-term relationship with greater intimacy. With the povider, on the other hand, she WITHOLDS sexual activity in order to secure for herself a male protector/provider figure and all the stuff he can give her, generally called a husband, his income, his stability, and his emotional support. Never the twain shall meet. I think a great deal of "let down" that young men feel is intrinsically related to not knowing this distinction. The men want the reward of being a lover but it turns out that, by playing to what women claim they want in a provider, the men have actually PRECLUDED themselves from that very role.

Well, this is an interesting discussion. Again, thanks for being frank, Shy Guy. I see where you got the idea that I was bein' obtuse, and I assert categorically that I'm not. I was hoping for something more specific, about "how to get laid" (in terms of recreational sex with attractive women that I DON'T have to pay for) and so far we aren't really much of a fount of wisdom are we here? Well, that doesn't mean the discussion hasn't been fruitful. Any other thoughts?

Book guy:

Your assessment of how I reacted to your posts is right on.

As far as you tooting your horn: No, I never recall you describing yourself as god's gift to women. I don't have the time or the patience right now to review your posts to see what exact words you've used in the past. The impression I have been left with is that you have a healthy amount of self-esteem (no sarcasm meant) and I seem to recall you stating in some sense that you are a decent looking fellow with a decent shape and you do SEEM to be self-confident. The statement of your intelligence was a sincere compliment based on reading your many posts.

The fact remains that I am not good-looking, am not in any kind of decent shape, and have little self-confidence with women. It is quite unlikely that any young attractive woman will be drawn to me based on physical attributes. That is the reason for drawing the comparison between us as I did above. Yet again, I have had a few relationships worth mentioning with women who I believe would generally be considered to be quite attractive. And you honestly admit that you have not. Thus, my confusion. What the hell is going on there?

Frankly, you demonstrate with your posts that you have done an inordinate amount of thinking about this topic over what is probably quite a long period of time. That just might end up being the answer to all this. You are thinking too damn much about this stuff! Which cycles right back to some of my ideas above.

I do appreciate the discourse on the subject.

Shy Guy

Yeah, but if I had a half-naked model in my house, WHY DIDN'T I NOTICE ...

BG -

My two, unsolicited cents are thus: "it's all about fun". I think you're putting the cart ahead of the horse, worrying about what to do when she decides she's going to have sex with you. Also, all of the (very true) BS about all the mind-games women play and how to manipulate them may all be true, but we should ask ourselves, "Is that going to do me any good?" For me, it does not. That stuff only works if you've got women pining for you in the first place, and have the luxury of pursuing or not pursuing. I'd like to put that psychology to use, but it is irrelevant to me, because women just don't see me that way. I've got a guapo, charismatic friend who can play this game, but not me.

One thing (I think) I've realized is that "Girls just want to have fun". I also think I've realized about myself that I used to be no-fun. That's why, although intelligent, witty, sensetive, yada yada - I never got any. Granted, the definition of "fun" for women is broad-ranging (no pun intended). But if you're clever, I think one can put his own, personal spin on "fun" that is unique to yourself.

So, I dunno... I just think one should cultivate a sense of "fun", and try to project that to women. If you ain't "fun" (or look like Brad Pitt), you ain't gettin' any. I also believe that many people (men and women) can think you're fun if YOU think you're fun - it just rubs off on them. Believe your own hype, and someone else is bound to, also.

I am lucky, I guess. I'm not getting any right now, but I've got pretty close lately, and know that I will soon. Why? Zoloft has set me free. That's why I say that if you can't find a good anti-depressant, just pop an Adderall and let the good times roll. In fact, anti-depressants often work thusly: they give your brain some needed juice, and you think you're all that. Then you just assume that you're permanently all that and live your life that way. I think it's called the placebo effect.

Well, you can take the anti-depressant/adderall stuff or you can leave it. I just know that without it, I would be in your shoes, because I've spent most of my life in them already. Been there, done that.

Sorry if this is useless to you. It's all I got.

Good luck, BG.

MrBillO^™--- ~ Still the king of the GFE lapdance... ~

Just Dropped In To See What Condition My Condition Was In

The only good thing about having a really slow connection is that you have plenty of time to surf while downloading songs.

I have dropped into this thread on and off since it is kind of a theme of my own life. You know, the part of not getting laid and wondering why.

The notion of "not caring" or being "cool" while around women so as to force them to make the move is a great idea for guys who don't star in software commercials. The idea of going one farther and being the life of the party ala Drew Carey also works if the women know you have megga bucks. Otherwise, neither of these ploys is worth squat.

Two things attract a woman to a man and that's it. One is money. Larry King is on wife #4 or 5. Only the best that money can buy. Take away the money, and fame, and he is probably going to be in TJ or else hiding in the bathroom away from his 65 year old wife.

The second attraction is the same thing that pretty much motivates virtually everything that a woman does during her adult life. And that is appearance and how she feels that appearance will be judged by others. Others meaning women. Her friends, co workers, family, etc.

This is the biggie for a woman. Forget all the bs about men being superficial and women being deep. Ain't so. Women pick men, and it is the woman who picks the man, based on looks and how these looks will compliment HER overall appearance.

Quick..........You are a woman. Chose one.

There are two guys. One is Mr Nice, funny, sharp, has a good job, is considerate, communicative, and, looks, well, he's nice. OK? The other is abusive at times, no real job, alternates between coke and booze, and is soooo cute with the tightest butt and all the women WANT him so badly.

My song downloaded. Later.

"Life of Party" "Money" "Fun" "Girls pick the guys"

It's all too depressing. And furthermore, I'm not convinced. I just have this "visceral" sense, that there's something else going on there. I can't prove it, but I do know that I can "smell" it. Here's what I think.

Young attractive women might or might not be looking for a guy who is great in appearance, might or might not be looking for a rich guy to marry, etc. etc. It's all possible. But it's beside the point. Because MEANWHILE out there, women that I could be attracted to, are engaging in consensual, non-paid, recreational, often extra-relationship-al, sex, regularly. The men that I see them with as their "moonpies" (that's a term from The Rules) are probably pretty rich but also pretty lame-ass. They'll take them on shopping trips but not actually make a move. The men that I see them eventually marrying are similar. But in the interim, they're not necessarily fucking recreationally ONLY the hottest lookers that they can find; or ONLY the really "fun" guys. They get into a fuck with an "intense" dude, and with a "hot" dude, and then with a "deep" dude, and then with ...

They're like John Candy at a smorgasboard -- they want to sample lots before settling on one thing. And I intend to convince them that I'm worth sampling. They're out there doing this ... why not get involved in it?

Now, the statement someone else said about figuring out how to manipulate the women back, to beat them at their own game -- and how that's probably futile -- I have to agree with. The instant she starts trying to one-up you in terms of who makes whom do what in exchange for whatever, you're in trouble. Don't let those power-plays START, much less try to beat her at them. Adults are adults.

So, I haven't quite figured out how to get involved in all that recreational sex that's going on out there, but I'm sure that just saying, "women don't pick me and that's that" isn't going to make me happy. So I'm going to figure something out, some time. I'll certainly share it when I do.

Book Guy, why are you going through all this hassle? This board is about bypassing all the stuff that you are worrying about. Go to TJ, or some MP, or call an escort service in your area. You pick what YOU want and screw the rest of the BS.

Obviously the men who post here and are married, or have been, probably have different views than the guys who don't post here. I would like to believe that the second group simply isn't yet aware of a better way to deal with their sexual needs.

Better, worse, whatever.

You're right, this discussion is mostly off-topic for this whole board, though, so I think it's a good idea to just let the conversation fade off until it hits on some other topic. In so far as the men here are more honest, though, about the underhanded nature of much of the "typical" North American dating scene, I'm happy to have picked their brains and gained a little benefit -- and a much more supportive community than elsewhere on the 'net, where generally a guy whining about not getting a date is attacked for his being "shallow" about wanting a good-looking date.

So, it hasn't been in vain, and it isn't totally off topic.

Finally, I'd just like to say, I don't actually consider providers to be a good solution for me. I use them as physical release, but also as an emotional crutch. I don't doubt they are the right solution for many other men, but right now, not for me. That's why I'm investigating other venues. So I disagree that the men who don't post here simply aren't aware of a "better" way ... it isn't necessarily "better" on all counts.

But that's a huuuuuge other discussion. Wonder if you really want to get into it?



BG

Tight_Fit, it's not easy being a woman's accessory. However, I do enjoy matching thier expensive luggage. I've learned to go well with a navy blue suit and a low heal, too.

Book_Guy, have fun, love yourself, chicks 'll dig you. Don't try so hard. And, by all means, stay away from head-butting.

Anybody ever try Adultfriendfinder.com? Lemme know if that shit works.

Yes, it works. I met a gringa in Minneapolis and of course I regreted it. On second date she stood me up. I also met a couple of girls in Cali, Colombia and had great time. But nothing beats p4p action.

JKarp

U went on a second date? i thought most people who use AFF are just looking for one-niters.

I thought that as well and that was my experience in Colombia. The gringa said "you must have some kind of relationship and trust to have great sex" which I thought would be second date but she was a no show and never answered her cell phone. Never again I am going after a US girl again.

JKarp