If you have plans to be in the Ensenada area from the 1st. of November through the 20th. you may encounter a lot of traffic and some of it may be pretty wild .... you've just entered the Baja 2000 zone and it is the roots to all racing with many foreign countries involved. For details hit on this link; http://www.score-international.com/

Really? From the 1st? The race festivities don't start until the 10th. I was "planning" a 1-night trip on the 7th and was hoping to avoid all of the hoopla.

Bummer but it looks like the 9th starts it.I will be down on 5,6 and would have loved to went a little further and watched this.
Taxibob

Americans Evicted In Mexico
Homes on disputed land in Baja California
Ken Ellingwood, Los Angeles Times
Tuesday, October 31, 2000
©2000 San Francisco Chronicle

URL: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/10/31/MN77416.DTL

Ensenada, Mexico -- Mexican federal authorities moved forcefully yesterday to begin evicting U.S. retirees from homes built on beach property that is at the center of a long-running land battle.

Backed up by more than 400 police officers, officials of a federal land agency went door to door to carry out an eviction order handed down last week by Mexico's Supreme Court to settle the ownership dispute.

Residents in some cases were given no more than a few minutes to abandon homes on a scenic finger of land about 18 miles south of the port city of Ensenada.

``It's like somebody dying and you have to say goodbye,'' said Guadalupe Limon, tears trailing under her sunglasses.

Limon and her husband, Juan, had to pack up their belongings and leave the two-story house across the street from the beach where they lived part time for 12 years.

The eviction had been feared for a week, after the court's ultimatum to land agency officials to give the disputed land to former owners. Officials at the agency, called the Agrarian Reform Ministry, said yesterday that they planned to transfer ownership of nearly 200 acres settled largely by American retirees.

Police arrived about 8 a.m. in a caravan that included busloads of unarmed police, ambulances and a tow truck and other equipment to move aside cars and a sand pile that formed a makeshift barrier.

A phalanx of 60 officers had to push through a blockade of U.S. citizens and local members of a peasant cooperative who locked arms in unity against the evictions. The peasants' group, called the Ejido Colonel Esteban Cantu, insisted that it owns the property, which it has leased to the Americans.

There was minor scuffling between the officers and ejido members, but no injuries were reported.

Agrarian Reform Ministry officials said that although the Americans were required to move out immediately, they would be allowed to store their belongings inside for 30 days -- time enough to attempt to negotiate fresh lease terms with the new owners. Some of the U.S. citizens were talking with the owners about how much they would pay to retain use of lots for which they had paid up to $90,000 for a 30-year term.

``If we can come up with enough money, we can stay here,'' said Margaret Harms, 78, a retired airline ticket agent from Riverside, Calif. ``If it's just too much, we'll have to walk away.''

The disputed land was ceded as a communal land grant to the peasants' collective in 1973 by presidential decree. The group then leased the land, allowing development of a 96-room hotel -- the centerpiece of the Baja Beach and Tennis Club -- and more than 200 homes in the club and along the peninsula nearby.

But the Supreme Court ruled that the land, in fact, belonged to several private companies that had gone to court to seize the land. Representatives of one of those companies, Purua Punta Estero SA, took control of the hotel yesterday and began evicting homeowners.

Chronicle news services contributed to this report.

©2000 San Francisco Chronicle Page A12

I am in the real estate business in San Diego.Even though property and land is cheap in Mexico it is still a third world country.You as a american have very few rights in Mexican courts.You never own your property you only lease it.Those leases can be up to 99 years but a change in government can always mean a change in your lease terms.The Ensenada case even surprised me because that area was always being developed as a safe real estate investment for americans.Now once again the Mexicans are shooting themselves in the foot.Before I get flamed by people saying the land should belong to the mexicans I would like to point out that foreign real estate investors in the U.S have exactly the same rights as american citizens when it comes to owning real estate.You can not take away a persons property without somekind of compansation.You do have eminent domain where a locality can take your land for a highway or something but then you are paid fair market value for your property.Mexico and these companies are just taking this land and they will probably just re-sell it and not compansate the american owners.
Once again a very sorry thing they are doing that will cause americans to think twice about investing. When you buy real estate(homes) you are investing in a area.You are not drilling for oil,you are living their and trying to make the area a better place to be and live.

Well, OK, where do I start.

Foreigners (remember, we, as Americans, are foreigners in Mexico!) are prohibited from owning land in Mexico that is within 35 miles of an international border, or 20 miles of the coastline. NO ONE - Mexican citizen included - can own property within a certain distance of the high tide line. Inland there is no problem, from a legal standpoint, for a foreigner to own land.

However, that being said, it is still, IMHO, NOT a good idea for an American to buy land in Mexico. The things that we expect surrounding property ownership - a county recorders office, title insurance, etc - either do not exist, or exist at such a minor level as to be meaningless. You are depending on an attorney to research the ownership history of the property, and collect evidence that says the seller legitimately owns the land in question.

The case with Punta Banda (the property outside of Ensenada) is much more complex than most people realize. It is NOT a case of the government taking away the Americans land. It is a case of private citizens (Mexican citizens, to be sure - and as part of a corporation) suing in court and claiming that they are the rightful owners of the land - NOT the "developers" who "sold" it to the Americans (and they really only leased it to them for 30 years). In 1995 (FIVE years ago) the Mexican courts ruled that the "developers" who leased the land to the Americans were NOT the rightful owners! The case went all the way to the Mexican Supreme Court, and guess what? They upheld the lower courts ruling!

The rightful owners then proceeded to try to work out deals with the residents, but the residents did not want to co-operate. They felt, understandably so, that they had already paid for their place to live. Of course the other parties involved have no money to compensate anyone (although Bancomer settled it’s liability by paying the Americans just over one million dollars).

The case near Ensenada would be similar to me selling you the Golden Gate bridge. It is perfectly legal, here in the USA, for me to give (or sell) you a deed to the bridge. I can write up a quit claim deed to ANY piece of property, and you can even record it. It then is up to the actual property owner to contest that deed. (All a deed does is transfer MY INTEREST in a property to someone else. That is why we have title insurance - the purpose of which is to say that yes, I DO legitimately have the ownership interest I claim to have.) I am VERY familiar with this, since one of my neighbors gave his wife a deed to MY LAND in partial settlement of his divorce!

That is pretty much what happened near Ensenada, but with some government involvement and Bancomer’s involvement the Americans thought it was a legit deal. Turned out, it wasn’t.

The recent evictions came at the end of a long period of the people refusing to leave. Similar to the US Marshals having to evict a tenant that refuses to vacate a rental property. The people leasing the property had been served notice that they were required to leave, or negotiate a new lease with the rightful owners. Those evicted last week were the ones who had refused, or were unable, to reach such an agreement. (Note that about 25% of the Americans living there had, in fact, reached an agreement with the legal owners and were NOT evicted.) Also note, that the rightful owners were still trying to work out agreements with the remaining residents who were evicted. But the people being evicted were the ones who had, in FIVE YEARS, had failed to reach an agreement with the owners.

OK, gotta stop ranting here. Feels too much like work.... I GOTTA get down to TJ....

curious and specific- well said amigos! don't the Japanese own Yellowstone and other American monuments? I had a friend who "owned" (99 year lease) an island ( at high tide,low tide it was a penisula)down by San Blas.His way around any legal problems was to have a Mexican partner that he trusted put everything in her name. One night my chica and I were dicussing living in her home town
someday and she was asking me "what would you do about registering a car?". I told her I would put everything in her name. She smiled at that, either
liking that I trusted her that much, or thinking how easy it would be to screw me when she wanted.
The point is, as has been pointed out here many times, we're not in Kansas anymore,if you're gonna
get involved, better be ready to walk away with nothing at any given moment.
A.

Curious
Are you saying that you think it is fair for people to pay twice.The people who would not agree to the terms of the new landlord were rhe ones that believed they had already paid for there homes.I am not sure why,it could have been for some reason as simple as price,or not having that price at this time because no american or mexican bank was going to give you a loan.

Well, let's say that YOU own a piece of property (remember, that is ALL that was in dispute was who owned the LAND). I come along and I write up a lease, and I find someone who pays me $500 a year to lease the land (your land, but hey... that’s only a "detail", right?). I give them a 30 year lease.

They build a house, or whatever, on the land that YOU own, but maybe they THINK I own it. (Remember - no title is recorded anywhere, no title insurance, etc.) So each year they pay me the $500 as a lease payment on the property.

This goes on for 10 years - I collect the lease payments, they live in the house they built on "my" land, and everyone is happy. Then one day YOU show up and say - HEY! That is MY land! Who said you could build a house on it? Who said you could live here?

And so you sue me, and sure enough the court says it is, in fact, your land. (Of course I have no money - I spent the $500 a year on gals at the Chicago Club. Sorry.)

Now I have collected $500 a year for 10 years - $5,000 - from the people living there. And they spent $100,000 building their house. So, what is fair at this point?

Do we all just say - sorry guy, it may well be your land, but you are tough out of luck? It wouldn't be fair to let you have your land back? After all, they paid ME for a lease... And built a house on it, improving the value of YOUR land... not knowing it was YOUR land, of course (but knowing it was not THEIR land either - they just leased the land for 30 years).

My take on land deals in Mexico - anywhere, for that matter - is that you need to be VERY careful, and be certain exactly what you are getting, and understand what recourse you have should things go bad. These folks obviously didn't do that well enough.

The right to own property is not a part of Mexican law. My example is Mulege - a wonderful resort on the east coast of Baja that was trashed by the locals when they "reclaimed" it from the landowners.
This happened to Mexican citizens who owned the land for a long time.
Do not take anything into Mexico that you cannot walk away from. Enjoy the ride but you have no rights.

CURIOUS
I am saying this should have been handled better,and it could have been.It is the people from other countries wanting to live and improve the land that has always made an area better.Remember these people only want to live
there.They are not trying to exploit the area.These mexican people you say own the land is a mexican corporation not a indian tribe that had and is having their land taken away like what is going on in Columbia.What do you think these poor people who are being evicted should do if they don;t have the money to re purchase their homes.Yes I know life is not fair but this has probabably set the mexican real estate business back at least 10 years.I have never bought or sold property in Mexico,but I was interested in getting involved.Now I would never even think about it.I am sure I am not the only one.It is once again not fair but if people(americans)do not invest in Mexico it can only sink futher into the third world.

And all I am asking is HOW would you resolve it "better"?

In my example above, if you were considered by the court to be the rightful owner, what would you consider fair?

As far as I can see there is no real nice and easy solution.

There can be a fund which would only have been about 5 million dollars to give no interest loans to the owners of the homes,and the homes would be sold at the original prices.One of the problems which was not brought out is that the new owners wanted huge price increases for the homes over the original prices.They say that the homes have gone up up in prices,inflation blah blah blah.
Curious,like I said before this mexican company now because of this mexican court decision knows they have the owners by the balls so they are demanding whatever they want.Again,if a mexican
bank had stepped in and offered the new so called owners(which is a company,not peasants)some solution in the form of cash this mexican company would probably jump at it.
What do you think this Mexican company will do?I know they will resell the land and homes (maybe even to a Mexican bank or holding company).That is the way the system works down there,but you know that.

Curious, I believe your legal analysis is exactly correct. However, if this happened in the U.S., equitable principles would step in to a situation like this to forge a result that is fair to all where the letter of the law cannot do so. Principles like "equitable estoppel" might very well establish rights for the homeowners based on the fact that they reasonably relied on authoritative representations they had perfected their interests (everything I've read on this subject indicates that the homeowners took pains to examine the legitimacy of the original lease transactions and were assured that their interests were on firm footing). An estoppel or other equitable principle could have maintained the status quo, or forced the rightful landowners to continue the leases in accordance with the original terms.

If Mexican courts lack the power to impose an equitable solution, I suggest that under all the circumstances, that the Mexican government should be providing the homeowners with financial compensation out of the public coffers. The result we have now is absolutely legal, but it is IMO patently unfair.

To me, the really disturbing thing about the whole sorry affair is that the residents did their due diligence to make sure everything was correct and legal, and they still got screwed. Unlike the U.S., Mexico doesn't have a system of title recordation. If Mexico had a system like the U.S., the "new" owners would have had to record their title claim early on and then file a "lis pendens" once they started litigating the issue to put everyone on notice that title to the land was currently in litigation. If they'd done that, the residents could have done a title search and would have discovered the prior claim before the first shovelful of dirt was dug.

But there was no system of recording, so nobody was on notice about anything. The claim was simply "out there" floating around. Unfortunately for the residents, it eventually floated up to the Mexican Supreme Court, where it was validated. As Erip said, legal but not fair. Buying land without some system to provide notice and establish the priority of claims is like buying a pig in a poke.

What the hell is a "poke" anyway?

"Regional Note: A pig in a poke is concealed in a sack from the buyer. The noun poke meaning a bag or sack dates from the 14th century in English."

Ah, but my point is that Mexico does NOT work the way we, as Americans, expect things to work. It's not our playing field. My friends in Mexico seem perfectly comfortable with owning property. Me? I would sooner buy a pig in a poke!

Thanks for the poke.

When in Mexico, rent.

Costa Rica has a central registry which is a bit of an improvement. Still, if you buy land in CR and leave it vacant long enough for squatters to get in, they will have legal rights after something like 3 months and can actually take possesion of the land after some odd years. But this is a bit off topic I guess...

Something similar can happen in Mexico, but it takes longer than 3 months. The land in question was originally given to the ejido because, in part, the owners were doing nothing to develop it!

This thread died out a while ago, but as Matiz pointed out, there is no recordation of title in Mexico. This simple article of Spanish law made it very easy for California to suddenly have a bunch of white guys owning rancheros a hundred and fifty years ago.

Quick question to the guys who live down South.
Hows the wheather down there? In S.F. it's pouring cats and dogs. Just wondering because a few guys are heading south soon.

Valentino

Your storm will hit Wednesday night and run through Thursday night. Predicting 1-2 inches, which is a lot for SD.

Look at
http://www.intellicast.com/LocalWeather/World/UnitedStates/Southwest/California/SanDiego/Forecast/

Rain

But from Saturday on, for the next five days, it looks to be sunny. Great to make that trip down to TJ and sample some of those Latin girls.

Cityog,
Come on guy you have me in suspense. Gives a report on how it went with your two favoritas!

Valentino

ps. Was Marleen there?

Valentino

For a guy who's given up the habit, you sure seem like you should join us down south next week!

Shadow,
Me give up the habit???
It's just that Im trying to juggle a few chicas here but to quit the habit NEVER. I know for a fact that this triangle is not going to last and as soon as it does. ADELITAS her I cum....hahaha.

Valentino

BTW I spoke to Cityog just a few minutes ago and...MAN what an Aneemmallll...

Valentino,

I am also from the Bay Area. Will be in TJ next weekend for the 1st time.

Hey Yoosin Welcome aboard!
I hope you enjoy your trip. Too bad I wont be going soon but it looks like Mr. Shadow & The Senator will be. They both have their trademarks and if you happen to bump into them Im sure you'll have a blast with these guys!

Valentino

BTW. What area code are you from?
I have a 650 prefix.

Many guys from the SF area here. I'm from 510 and still have yet to hit the zone...but I'm thinking about it.

Valentino,

510 Area Code.

Mr. Shadow & The Senator trademarks? How will I identify?

Yo All,

Interesting how "Mrs." Yoamochicos doesn't have a profile so we can take this offline!

Me: Live 408, Work 650.

The Senator

Let's set a date for the Bay-Area Monger Convention! Brew-Pub? San Francisco Brewing Company? Corner of Kerney and Columbus? Is there a day that most of us can make it?

Does 02-Feb-2001, 3pm-on work for everyone?

The Senator

P.S. I like to start drinking early! "Mrs." Yoamochicos, Can you make it? I'll be the one wearing the green waist pack (and be fairly well dressed to boot!).

Hey Senator,

I you guys have power today?

Harry

Bay-Area Monger Convention,

I am a definite maybe, depending on how busy things are are being out this week. Hope to see you there. Of course if I can't find you guys I can always go visit my favorite AMP.

Yoo Sin

I work 415 and live 510 but my heart is in 011-52

02/02/01 sounds perfect Mr. Shadow and Senator.
I will drag Valentino and Crazy-Pinoy there, but if we start at the brewery on Kearny and Columbus I got a feeling we will end up at the Lusty Lady on Kearny and Broadway, even better Centerfolds on Broadway.

Ps: Plenty of materials to share with you guys since our last trip.

I don't live in the bay area, and have no personal interest, but do those of you who are married think that discussing a local meeting like this on an open forum is really a good idea? You might want to exchange e-mail addresses and alter your time and location. No reply necessary, just wanted to point out the possible risk, especially after someone's wife apparently just busted him because of this board.

Mr Senator,
Yes... please include me in your board meeting.
I'll be there to join yourself and other congress members at hand. Hopefully this time more congress members will join us.

Valentino

!!!!!SOUTHWEST AIRLINES!!!!!

For those who live in Oakland and San Jose you are going to get aditional flights from SouthWest airlines. As for SFO, all flights are now being cancelled from there. Apparently, SW states that it is not gaining profit from SFO and is moving to other Airpports. So for MR. SENATOR, SHADOW & CITYOG lets hope they add a late night flight out of SAN!

Valentino

ps. Information was based on todays newspaper
THE CHRONICLE

Oakland is a SWA hub city, easy access from San. F via BART.

TJHombre,
I see that we have to now sing in. Thats good but
how do we sing out?

Valentino

Valentino

Sing
Sing a song
Sing out loud
Sing out strong!

As Hippie points out we'd better set another date and time as someone's SO may be reading this board. Email me with your 3 best dates and times you can make the Bay-Area Monger Convention and I'll coordinate from there and get back to you.

the-senator@representative.com

The Senator

Mr. Senator,

As soon as you get the place and time for us to meet please email me. Ill gladly join you and the rest of the Bay Area Congress Memebers.

Valentino

ps. So will Dark Knight

To the "Nor-Cal Chapter";

Mi amigos, although I live in SoCal, I still own a home in Blackhawk, in the east bay. If my schedule permits, perhaps I could attend the "Bay Area" convention?

Billy

What is the Bay Area convention? what happens at this convention?

downtown

Valentino, Senator, Dr Planet, Cityog

Check your mail

BillyPv, We would love to have you attend. It is not a convention but only a little get together of friends. I met Shadow and The Senator through the Redsnake site. I was kind of skeptical about meeting this guys in AB, but they are top notch people. a few of my monger friends have all met them. Check your e-mail

When is convention guys! Please email, I would like to join.

yoosin@hotmail.com

The date and location for the Bay Area Monger Convention has been determined. Email me for details at the-senator@representative.com.

The Senator

Hey Senator,

I e-mailed you and haven't heard anything back. I'm in LA now but might end up back in the Bay Area for employment reasons...I know I'll be up there soon. You can get my e-mail address from this post, redongdo@hotmail.com if you need help. I'd like to meet some of you guys.

Redongdo

Mr Senator,
Thanks for the information on the convention but please check the Dates again. My calendar dates seem to be in conflict on that day. It seems to be a holiday?

Valentino

ps. Great details

Thanks for planning Senator. I hope I can make it but 4 on a Friday and I am starting from Marin...we'll see. Other than a dive bar, anything to see down that way?

Islandboy,

It just starts at 4pm, because I like to start drinking early, and continues well into the evening. I don't think there's anything to see down this way, but others may be more familar with the area.

Remember this board only discusses LEGAL prostitution.

The Senator

Easy there partner, just asked if there is anything to see.

IslandBoy,

I just didn't want TJHombre to get in trouble.

See ya at The BAMC.

The Senator

Well, a couple of miles south is the yuppy fern bar where Eddy DeBartolo's imfamous rape date was picked up a few years back. If you go there afterwards you can experience a real culture shock.
Let's see what else, if you're a celebrity hound, you will probably drive by Joe Montana's home on the way.
Also in the neighborhood are a couple of the best wine stores in the SF Bay Area, some damn fine
Taquerias, and well, for more, you can email me.


tutall@lycos.com

Got up this morning and walked out onto the wharf for my usual breakfast at "Gilda's By The Sea" and on the second page of the local newspaper under the Local News Headline was "Local Woman Found Dead in Tijuana Hotel". There wasn't much substance to the story as she was under suspicion for embezzling about 80 grand from a local soccer group. It did say she OD'd and that she was diagnosed recently with cancer. The article did say there was more in the Tijuana paper.