Originally Posted by Socrates69 on November 02, 2003 - 14:31 pm

I've been advised by some LOS vets to not discuss $$$ since it may lead to a more business-like date with the TG. What are your thoughts on the topic?

Originally Posted by I_am_Sancho on November 04, 2003 - 9:49 am

In Reply to: Thailand: To discuss or not to discuss $$$ posted by Socrates69 on November 02, 2003 - 14:31 pm

I find this discussion very interesting. I think there must be differences in Pattaya vrs. Bangkok, beer bar vrs. go-go, experienced pro vrs. fresh off the bus, and our preference in women that account for the differences. I only went to Pattaya once so I obviously don't have nearly the experience some of you have, but really I just couldn't picture negotiating with any of those beer bar girls. They all seemed happy to take whatever I offered sight unseen and I just couldn't picture any of them giving me any grief or having unrealistic expectations. I was giving 1000bt Overnight and 500bt short time as a base and upped it 200Bt at my choice for exceptional performers which I think was maybe better than average rates. Maybe they are just clever enough to judge the thickness of my billfold and calculate that I look like a nice guy who will offer a fair price. I also made a point to dress nice and look like I am successful and have money and I believe the girls do respond to that. It looks better in front of there friends if they are the girl taken out of the bar by the sharp dressed rich guy who may or may not pay them well then to be the girl who got paid allot of money by the fat old slob. I know they are motivated by money but there image in front of there friends is equally valuable to them and if you bolster that I think they become less concerned about the money. Probably ultimately it has to do with market economics. When I was In Pattaya in July it was low season and SAR's scare time, plain and simple if I took a girl out of the bar I was 100% the best she could hope for that evening no matter what I paid her. I had all of the leverage and they knew they could either take what I offered or get nothing. Even spending the night in my hotel room was probably an improvement over what they would have done otherwise. Probably taking some total hottie Go-Go girl in Bangkok at high season gives the girl allot more leverage to negotiate and demand allot more because if you leave, she knows she has other prospects. Actually, I would almost prefer if the girls were a little more business like. I really loved the GFE as far as the sex went but they carry it a little to far when they start acting like they really are your real girlfriend. The reason I pay for sex in the first place is to avoid girlfriend problems.

Originally Posted by Sandman on November 04, 2003 - 13:21 pm

In Reply to: Re: Thailand: To discuss or not to discuss $$$ posted by I_am_Sancho on November 04, 2003 - 9:49 am

Good thoughts and comments.

I liked Bwana Diks comment on Paying;

"I pay so I can send them home"!!!

Thats a good one to remember

Originally Posted by Teacher on November 04, 2003 - 7:58 am

In Reply to: Thailand: To discuss or not to discuss $$$ posted by Socrates69 on November 02, 2003 - 14:31 pm

It seems to me that not discussing the money upfront is an unconscious way to pretend that this is not a financial agreement. I know how good the girls of Thailand are at making it seem like a "date", but it is always a commercial transaction. In what other transaction do you consume the service without agreeing on the price? I think it is disrespectful to the girls to engage in a transaction without letting them know what they are getting out of it up front. It removes an element of choice on their part. If they choose to go with us for a stated price, she, and we, can relax knowing that it is a mutual agreement. If they don't know what they are getting for service rendered, how can they be giving informed consent? I realize prostitution is a bit of a crap shoot for both parties, but the money exchange ought not to be a mystery.

I took a freelancer to Pattaya with me after spending several wonderful days with her in BKK. I told her what I could pay for the 5 days, (which was a couple thousand Baht below her usual rate) She agreed and we had a great time, and never discussed money again.

I think most of the guys that I've seen get burned over the fee, were guys that were trying to pretend that they were so desirable that the BG should be willing to give them a discount. This is their livelyhood. They have overhead like the rest of us. I think they deserve some respect. If they seem to be overvaluing their charms, move on to someone else gracefully. They will get the message eventually.

The other fantasy supported by not talking about the fee up front is that we, personally, are not involved in prostitution. We are. And they are. If you need to make a moral judgement that somehow absolves you of guilt, I suggest you take up another hobby.

But, I could be wrong.

Teacher

Originally Posted by StrikeEagle on November 04, 2003 - 18:19 pm

In Reply to: Re: Thailand: To discuss or not to discuss $$$ posted by Teacher on November 04, 2003 - 7:58 am:

While I agree that the transaction is a business deal, I find your assuming that those who do not discuss price ahead of time to be in a fantasy world to be misinformed at the very least.

Each Hombre works the deal in his personal style. To assume that he is doing so for any certain reason is well beyond reason. You don't know the people, nor do you know the true reasons for their actions.

I also strongly disagree with you that it is disrespectful to the girl not to set the price up front. As you stated, it’s a business transaction and both parties are exhibiting trust by conducting business based upon an unspoken understanding. This does NOT mean that it’s okay to devalue the girl for her services, nor is it okay to rip her off. However, it is equally offensive for the girl to expect twice the going rate for her services. Yet, it is perfectly acceptable to both parties if they choose to do business without a formal price agreement prior to the transaction.

IMHO, it shows far more respect for the girl not to discuss price ahead of time. In doing so, you show her your trust just as she is showing you hers. In my experience, strong disagreements do not occur all that commonly. And, when they do happen, it is more often than not a result of other misunderstandings rather than simple price issues. (i.e. she though that I’d be taking her for more than one night, or that I’d be giving her the bar fine for an upcoming side trip.) In every case I’ve experienced, we’ve been able to easily come to an understanding and in the end, I almost always reward the girl. (i.e. She gets a bigger tip at the end of our time together. Again, not a ton of money, but a small amount is almost always appreciated.)

I DO agree with you that it’s best to agree on price for ‘excursions’ ahead of time. Yes, it’s a ‘vacation’ for the girl, but she also should be fairly compensated. TOO many times I’ve read about guys who ‘short change’ the girl in payment since she’s getting ‘time off’ out of the deal. Spending time with a ‘client’ (and that’s what we are) is NOT time off for the girl. She’s ‘working’ all the while. She deserves to be paid for her time just as she would be for LT+. If you take the girl ‘away’ on a trip, she should expect you to treat her as a ‘date’, and she should expect to be paid for working. The reality is that most times, she will save you much more than the extra ‘date’ expenses will cost you. Most BGs are more than willing to bargain on your behalf and will almost always save you a ton of money. In every case, the girl will not expect you to spend the ‘saved’ money on her (in fact blatantly doing so may offend her) but this savings does give you some extra baht to spend on her. And, you should think about doing just that. (I know that’s what I do.)

Respect is based on trust and balance. The more trust and balance you can find with any particular girl, the better the experience will be.

StrikeEagle

Originally Posted by Buttman on November 04, 2003 - 17:28 pm

In Reply to: Re: Thailand: To discuss or not to discuss $$$ posted by Teacher on November 04, 2003 - 7:58 am:

Seems to me that the whole concept of a "GFE" is a fantasy, as Teacher says, whereby some mongers delude themselves into thinking they are not actually engaging in sex for pay but rather for "love"--get a grip, guys!

Originally Posted by Porker on November 04, 2003 - 10:47 am

In Reply to: Re: Thailand: To discuss or not to discuss $$$ posted by Teacher on November 04, 2003 - 7:58 am:

Do you negotiate with a waiter as to the service you will get with your meal before you sit down? There's an implied agreement that you will both take care of each other. And there's no 'disrespect' present in him giving you the service in good faith in advance of any tip you will leave on your way out the door.

I agree with the stuff you said about not being delusional about it being a business transaction.

Originally Posted by Sandman on November 04, 2003 - 13:31 pm

In Reply to: In what other transaction do you consume the service without agreeing on the price? posted by Porker on November 04, 2003 - 10:47 am

You took a freelancer from BKK to Pattaya with you?

Is that like buying an orange in the grocery store on your way to the orange grove to pick oranges?

Hope you were able to play some while you were there!

There are some very interesting comments on both sides of this issue. Might just be one of those personal preference deals. You like blonds, I like brunetts; You like small tits, I like big tits kinda deal!

Hardened pro versus fresh off the bus is an interesting perspective though!

Originally Posted by Murasaki on November 03, 2003 - 20:35 pm

In Reply to: Thailand: To discuss or not to discuss $$$ posted by Socrates69 on November 02, 2003 - 14:31 pm

I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I ALWAYS negotiate price before I barfine a girl. I just hate nasty surprises and disagreements back in the room because I want to give her 1000 and she was "expecting" inflated Japanese prices of 2 or 3 K.

And I have a pretty damn good batting average for good sex and GFE in the room, so obviously it doesn't set the tone for a bad experience.

Originally Posted by Bryce19 on November 03, 2003 - 9:23 am

In Reply to: Thailand: To discuss or not to discuss $$$ posted by Socrates69 on November 02, 2003 - 14:31 pm

always discuss price first. no hard feeling or bitching later on. do it this way :

TG "you pay bar for me?"

Me "ok, I pay xxxx baht longtime"

If she agrees, we are good to go. If she asks for more I move on. But I always let them know what I will be paying ahead of time.

Also never ask to pay bar for a girl. Make her ask you to pay bar for her.

Originally Posted by StrikeEagle on November 02, 2003 - 19:34 pm

In Reply to: Thailand: To discuss or not to discuss $$$ posted by Socrates69 on November 02, 2003 - 14:31 pm

IMHO, if the BG brings up price in the bar it sets a bad tone, and marks her as a veteran pro. (This is not generally the type of girl I’m looking for on my trips) If she quotes me an out of line price, I know that she’s trying to scam me. Neither of these ‘tone setters’ are likely to get my business.

In the LoS, there are just too many girls who aren’t going to try to rip me off for me to waste time with a girl who is. Thus, any BG that quotes me an outrageous price is not going to get my money. I will not embarrass her in the bar, nor will I burn a bridge with her. My normal tact is to simply tell her that I know that she is asking for much more money than is the normal price. (“Too much money, even for one as beautiful as you.”)
I finish my drink and move on. She gets the message, but not my business. If I return to that bar again, and she approaches me, I’ll almost always give her another opportunity to win my business. I’ve had several girls who have taken advantage of this ‘second chance’ and every one of them has turned out to be a fun girl who gave me some memorable experiences.

As far as payment, I generally, fold the cash in half and tuck it partially under her purse. Not once have I had a girl count the money in front of me. (I think most of them know from the color and ‘feel’ of the cash how much money is in that fold of bills.) I pay the going rates, (1000TB-2000TB for LT) with an extra 100TB or two for extra special service. Though with girls who have proven to be very special, I’ve normally arranged to spend more time with her even before I pay her for that first “date”.

Now, here’s a corollary question: if you agree to spend the day with the girl (which most likely ends up including the following night as well) do you pay the girl for the first night before she goes to her apartment to get a change of cloths, or do you pay her for the entire time at the end? I personally have done it both ways, and can’t decide if I have a ‘preferred’ method. I’ve tried to look at it from ‘her’ point of view, and I still can’t figure out which way will create the most comfort for everyone involved. IMHO, comfort and happiness lead to the best ‘dates’. So, while this question may seem to be superfluous in the mind of many Hombres, I believe it’s something worth thinking about. The more comfortable she is with me, the better service she’s going to give.

StrikeEagle

Originally Posted by Porker on November 03, 2003 - 3:51 am

In Reply to: My Take posted by StrikeEagle on November 02, 2003 - 19:34 pm

I haven't personally done this in Thailand, as I didn't have any girls there for an extended stay, but I'd say leave some money for her in the manner you mention before you leave the room in the AM on the first morning you're with her, and then play it by ear after that. Like you say, think of it from her point of view: You let her know fairly soon in your 'relationship' that you are a decent guy that's not trying to stiff her in any way and by telling her you want to see her again that she can reasonably expect more where that came from if she makes you happy.

Originally Posted by I_am_Sancho on November 02, 2003 - 15:19 pm

In Reply to: Thailand: To discuss or not to discuss $$$ posted by Socrates69 on November 02, 2003 - 14:31 pm

When I was in Pattaya only one girl ever even mentioned money and that was only because I was rushing her to quickly close a short time deal spending very little time in the bar with her. She said "how mu fo me" with a smile and kind of a upbeat joking tone. The rest, after a couple of lady drinks, I just ask if they would like to go to my hotel. For short time I explained I had to leave later but ask if they would like to go to my hotel for a little while. After we were done, in every case the girl accepted what ever I offered as bills folded in forths without counting them and put it in there pocket or purse without even looking at it, followed by a big smile and a hug and a passionate kiss.

Originally Posted by Khun_Mor on November 02, 2003 - 14:57 pm

In Reply to: Thailand: To discuss or not to discuss $$$ posted by Socrates69 on November 02, 2003 - 14:31 pm

As I have said many times before, I never discuss
payments with a Barfine. I get to know them before barfining and if they like you they never bring up money. If the pooying asks-- How much you give me-- I say goodbye.
I generally put 2,000 baht in the girls purse while she is dressing before leaving and let her know that I did without mentioning amount. Only several times in the years I have been to LOS has the pooying even looked in her purse or counted the money. If I come back to their bar they are all over me to go out again so they must have no problem with the amount or approach.

This is just me-- others prefer to have a known amount agreed on first. You gotta do what you are comfortable with. Do not know if bargaining over payment ruins GFE-- never done it. At least 70% of my barfines over the years were GFE type encounters- not a bad average I believe.

Originally Posted by Porker on November 02, 2003 - 17:21 pm

In Reply to: Re: Thailand: To discuss or not to discuss $$$ posted by Khun_Mor on November 02, 2003 - 14:57 pm

Or maybe I had bad luck/got pegged as a total newbie. I didn't have a lot of experience in Thailand, was only there for a week, but it was definitely needing to be discussed ahead of time with the two girls I took out of Mandarin in Nana Plaza and the massage chick at Sabailand in Pattaya. And the mamasan from the Pattaya beer bar bitched at me when I tried to give her 500 for short time after I had already paid an inflated 500 baht barfine at closing time to get her to go with me.

Even the old gnarly foot massage chick asked if I was going to pay for more than a massage when I asked her to blow me. We didn't argue about how much, I just said 'yes', but this was right in the middle of things. The first Thai massage chick I went with in Bangkok tried to set the amount right in the middle of the massage too, and started out asking for a ridicuolus 200 baht for a hand job before accepting 1000 baht total, which was a 600 baht tip for the hand job.

From my limited experience, I would say haggling is generally not necessary with beer bar girls, and I'd pay them 1000 for ST and 1500 LT in BKK, 500/1000 ST/LT in Pattaya. For those with experience on getting hot go-go girls in either place without mentioning compensation ahead of time, I'd love to here it.

BTW, just as a comparison, the only time I ever mentioned money in Angeles City with ANYBODY was when I was dealing with a freelancer I met outside the Orchid, and I never had any sort of complaint. Comparing that to a handful of incidents in Thailand makes AC look pretty good.

Originally Posted by Blazers on November 02, 2003 - 19:49 pm

In Reply to: I'd say it depends... posted by Porker on November 02, 2003 - 17:21 pm

The hotties at most of the bars in Nana Plaza WILL ask for the amount up front and they are getting more and more accustomed to asking Japanese customer prices. It's better to be light-hearted about your counter-offer and speaking Thai helps. If she gives you any attitude...to the curb. Pattaya hotties at go go bars have rarely asked for price up front except Superbaby girls whom ALWAYS ask for price up front. Price ahead of time makes the session off to a bad start which is why I prefer Pattaya girls FFK(Fresh From Khorat) who normally dont even discuss money.

Originally Posted by Socrates69 on November 02, 2003 - 22:31 pm

In Reply to: Hot Nana Girls Ask up Front posted by Blazers on November 02, 2003 - 19:49 pm

Never heard of japanese customer prices. How much is mark up? Is it considered in bad taste to negotiate? What's the best way to counter offer?

Originally Posted by StrikeEagle on November 03, 2003 - 13:07 pm

In Reply to: Jpn customer prices and negotiations. posted by Socrates69 on November 02, 2003 - 22:31 pm

Japanese businessmen are notorious for over paying for the services of a bar girl and the girls know it. In Japan it is considered crude to negotiate price. It is also the sign of low social standing to do so. Thus, especially when dealing with Asian appearing clients, the girls get used to setting a high price right off the bat. As time goes on, this practice tends to spill over into dealings with every client, and the ‘expected’ price goes higher.

The best way to avoid this is NOT to do business at these inflated prices. In my estimation, if the girl knows how to play the “let’s make a deal game”, she’s been in the business for a while. Likely she’s also become somewhat hardened in the process. With so many girls, why play that game? IMHO it’s better to find a nice girl who is looking to provide quality service and have a good time in the process.

Yes, money is a key element in the whole transaction. I’m not afraid to pay for a good experience, and I reward those who show me an exceptionally good time. I’m not talking about tipping 500TB or more. Rather, I’ll give her an extra 100TB, and buy her something while we are out shopping. I’ll get her an outfit or something like that. (Never buy a BG jewelry!) In addition, I try to make the ‘date’ fun for her as well, by doing things that I think we’ll both enjoy. Club selection, dinner selection and the like can all go far to both of us having the best time possible. This is NOT to say that I’m okay with club hopping with “my BG” and her friends. That can get expensive and in my view is not productive to the mutual enjoyment of the evening.

As always, YMMV. This “formula” has worked well for me in every environment to which I’ve adventured. (Mexico and SEA, thus far.) It’s not all about the money. It’s about getting ahead in life. Money is only part of the equation. Making life a little bit happier for the girl is at least as important as the money, and in my experience is the ‘forgotten key’ to having the best time possible.


Chok Dee,

StrikeEagle

Originally Posted by Bryce19 on November 03, 2003 - 9:27 am

In Reply to: Jpn customer prices and negotiations. posted by Socrates69 on November 02, 2003 - 22:31 pm


don't counter offer or put up with bs. see my other post on this topic. Tell them what you will pay so there are no suprises, but if she doesn't take your offer be willing to move on. BTW, looks and price have nothing to do with performance.

Originally Posted by StrikeEagle on November 03, 2003 - 13:09 pm

In Reply to: Re: Jpn customer prices and negotiations. posted by Bryce19 on November 03, 2003 - 9:27 am

Some of the hottest lookers are also some of the worst BGs for customer sat.

But, YMMV


StrikeEagle

Originally Posted by Epimetheus on November 02, 2003 - 18:35 pm

In Reply to: I'd say it depends... posted by Porker on November 02, 2003 - 17:21 pm

on how you click with your lady. I've had a few girls that asked me about money upfront that treated me like a KING in the room!! Ultimate GFE, we BOTH came many times... BKK is like that.

Had one Pattaya beer bar girl ask the same question and was the worst lay of my LoS adventures (just beat out 222 from Sabailand).

E

Originally Posted by I_am_Sancho on November 02, 2003 - 18:15 pm

In Reply to: I'd say it depends... posted by Porker on November 02, 2003 - 17:21 pm

Yea I forgot to mention the soapy place was all negotiated up front. I only took one Go Go girl in Pattaya my very first night there, all the rest were beer bar girls but the Go Go girl never mentioned money either and was very hot looking though not quite as much fun as the beer bar girls. AC was the same for me regarding payment though there it was more clear cut what was payment and what was tip due to the barfine scheme.