Guys,

Has anyone had feedback from garotas or, really, anyone in Brasil who has used the Pimsleur English series for native Portuguese speakers?

I've looked at the common English workbooks a lot of the garotas study (with and without tutors) and they really stink. I only hope that the language guides that we use to learn Portuguese aren't nearly as bad! I would like to get a good set of ESOL for Portuguese tapes/CDs with a good accompaning book as a present for my next trip down.



(Message edited by catocony on March 18, 2004)

Also, does anyone have any experience with the Collins Bilingual Talking Dictionaries?

http://www.multilingualbooks.com/portesl.html

If this works, the price, at $40.00 seems pretty good.

I can ask the dude in Ipanema who sells software on the street to see if he can get it. He has just about everything else...

I'll talk to my namorada,but I can relay this much. I've started taking brasilian portuguse classes from a brasilada in the the US and some of the stuff I have learned from the Pimsleur is totally wrong. After listening to that, I would have insulted a lot of garotas just by saying anything.

Guys,

Thanks for asking Catocony. I was just about to do the same thing. I currently bidding on the 1st set of Pimsleur on Ebay. What's your opinions about it?

Cat -- I have given the first 6 Pimsleur Portuguese --> English lessons to at least 7 different garotas. Well, ok...traded them for value received. Only one of them ever got past lesson 4.

Irrespective of the quality and accuracy of Pimsleur, the reality is only a tiny number of the working girls have the tenacity to do what is necessary get significant value from the CDs. I don't mean to be overly judgmental, as those of you who have worked with the English --> Portuguese set of lessons know it is tough to belly up to the bar day after day and spend the time repeating the sentences out loud to no one. It takes a LOT of time to learn another language, especially if you are not exposed to it daily.

I think someone should record a CD of the ESSENTIAL phrases of English these girls truly need e.g. "You, me, your hotel, fucky fucky, 100 dollars". It might provide more incentive...

I sound too negative, Pimsleur is a great help and the whole 90 lessons should be studied. That will take a lot of commitment, practice and repeatition. I also suggest a portuguese class after finishing the first 30 lessons.

My experience with language is, after you learn the basics (either through school or tapes or whatever) you sound like an idiot in trying to speak the language in the field. However, at least you're understood, and can understand them, which is the main point of the process. You get what amounts to a child's vocabulary and understanding, and then grow the ability by using it. It's the only way to learn.

When I meant that the English workbooks the girls use suck, is that they use a lot of pictures and have very little actual vocabulary in them. They look like 2nd-grade primers, you know, a big picture of an apple and the word "apple" underneath. Not necessarily bad, just inefficient.

Have to agree with SF Hombre. The girls talk a lot of BS about wanting to learn the language, but most of them are full of it. Remember, they are hookers basically because they are too lazy to get a regular job. They are not very disciplined. I also hear a lot of talk about "I'm going to join the academy" to work out, which is also usually BS. They just want you to give them money for the academy, which they wil never go to. If a person wants to get in shape, they don't need the academy-just a little tenacity. If a person is really motivated to learn something, they will find a way to do it, but how many garotas will really put in the time to learn English, which will take years of daily practice?

Chalk up another fellow hombre that agrees with SF Hombre...I too have experienced the same results.

Downandup...it's great your able to take Portuguese lessons from a Brasilera.

I'm almost finished with my 58th lesson and am pretty stoked. But your comment about insulting people with what I've learned concerns me. I don't want to unintentionally insult anyone.

Please point out a few things in the Pimsleur Portuguese lessons that were wrong/insulting and what is the right/polite way to phrase those sentences.

Obrigado

I don't think Pimsleur is wrong-it's just that people from different areas of Brazil speak differently. I have been through all 90 lessons at least 50 times....that's how dense I am...listen everyday for at least a couple of hours,and always when I'm driving. Pretty much have it memorised, but I need constant reinforcement or I forget it.

Well, I have to disagree with SF_H on two points -

I don't find it so hard to do the 1/2 hour lesson each day or so, especially if I have a trip upcoming.

And dammit, never US$ - it's "you, me, hotel, 100 REALS"!!!

Heheh, trading English CD's for fucks sounds great, have to try that one day! Other than that, as msot of the guys have pointe dout, trying to teach a GP conversational English is a waste of time..

For waht it's worth, I once traded 6 months of Enlgih lessons for getting my car's engine rebuilt. Next time, I'll ask for a full-service programma instead!

BS

I have several English courses for Brazilians. Some in my computer, plus now the Pimsleur English for portuguese speakers.

Many girls get started with the courses, but usually only for a few hours, then they stop or do some more 3 weeks later.

You guys actually managed to get services from a girl in exchange for english CDs?? is that true??? and still they did not study??

I'm not sure what downandup is talking about...

There is nothing "insulting" on the pimsleur CD's. The pimsleur stuff is very "by the book" portuguese that would not get you in trouble anywhere. It works, it'll get the job done, but it's not really how people talk here.

Living here 18 months now I went back and listened to a few of the early pimsleur mp3's.. man.. what a difference, I would venture to guess that the pimsleur stuff is proper paulista portuguese. Again, you won't insult anyone, and people will understand you.

In almost 2 years here I've never heard anyone say "Eu gostaria de pedir um cafezinho"

Dood,

Exactly - formal language education will leave you sounding like either a child or a dork, but at least you'll be able to communicate. Now, all I have is basic puta-bar and terma Portuguese, good for an hour of boite chat at best. I can order meals and get simple things across to cab drivers, hotel employees, etc, but more is certainly needed.

Thank you for the insight Dood and Catocony. It's a relief.

I am cool with getting the basics from Pimsleur and hopefully, one day, spending a longer period of time in Brasil and being able to speak Portuguese the way Brasilians do.

I'm sure people learning English would experience the same oddness when they try to apply what they learned in school to the "real world" outside.

Everyones gotta start somewhere when learning a language.

I think it is worthwhile to pick up another langauge to bridge the communication gap.

so' meus dois centavos...



(Message edited by solid808 on March 20, 2004)

I'm a little late to the thread but--

SF-- I did buy a CD last year that gave you the essentials of Terma Portuguese, from some guy hawking it at Meia Pataca, who I never saw again. I learned "Eu quero choupar a sua shashota" (later I found out the word was spelled "xoxota", which makes it one of the interesting words around IMHO--its spelling kind of kind of expresses its essence), and other phrases. One CD, most of what you need. I'm up to Pimsleur II Lesson 18, and still haven't found out how to ask for a blow job with beijos negro. But I didn't need to know Portuguese to have good sex. The garotas were quite amused when I used that phrase on them.

Dood-- And I just learned that phrase....

But I agree with the thrust of this thread, after going intensively through Pimsleur I, I had the best time in Rio, communicating well enough to whet my appetite for more. Yes, discipline, every day, and it's more painful than the gym, having to work a lesson five times before I get some of the words. BUT WORTH IT!

IMO Pimsleur’s value really depends on what type of learner you are. I’m a visual learner and can memorize hundreds of words and their spelling in a sitting. However I don’t have an ear for the language. This means I speak with an accent and don’t pick up phrases in bars etc. To that end Pimsleur is very useful for me in practicing speaking the language. I then apply the pronunciations I learn there to similar words ,and use the reference books to check grammar. An aural learner wouldn’t need to rely on Pimsleur as much.

As an aside a lot of the garotas are aural learners i.e. they’re very good at picking up songs and English phrases for working. However their written English is very poor. Going thru grammar books is easy for me but I still find it a chore. IMO, not much chance of a garota doing it with the beach and Help calling.

Unfortunately none of the products below have sufficient vocabulary. The only way to acquire general phrases it is to chat to Brazilians or read newspapers and magazines. For sexual phrases the escort ads and review sites are good. There are no shortcuts though, it takes a LOT of work if you want to become fairly fluent.

Finally, I don’t agree that the Pimsleur phrases are insulting. They may be overly formal and correct in some cases but I don’t see this as a problem. Amongst more educated Brazilians this may be seen as a plus.


BTW, these are the products that I’ve used.

Books combined with Tapes/CDs :
Pimsleur I/II/III :
Pros : Very effective for oral learning due to repetition especially if you apply the sounds to new words learned. Higher proportion of words/phrases encountered in everyday situations. A little pedestrian particularly Level 1.
Cons : Expensive if bought direct. Limited documentation if you want to check spelling. Introduces more complicated grammar concepts e.g. future subjunctive but doesn’t explain why they’re there.

Living Language Ultimate Portuguese :
Pros : Cheap.
Cons : Covers a lot of ground with little repetition so easy to forget.

Mastering Portuguese - Barron's :
Pros : Also covers a lot of ground but with more repetition so more effective. Particularly good for common verbs. Relatively cheap.
Cons : Old style layout and references e.g. Pan Am etc.

Reference :
Portuguese Verbs and Essentials of Grammar - Sue Tyson-Ward : Excellent. Concise, well laid out, simple to use book on grammar.
501 Portuguese verbs - J. Nitti, M. Ferreira : Good for checking conjugations of specific verbs if you're a perfectionist.

Grammar Practice :
Gramática Activa I/II : Isabel/Olga Coimbra : Good. Contains school-like exercises laid out by area to improve grammar. I purchased it in Portugal but I believe similar books can be bought in Rio Sul at Saraiva.

Ard -- Good post. One minor "correction". You are right that many of the girls are in fact, ummm, "aural", and know every word to many popular rock and hip-hop songs. But every time I've asked, not one of them had a clue as to the meaning of what they were singing. Except for a few common English words which they may know, almost all of them are just making sounds.

Ard is very correct I think. I can learn much by using a book and the Pimsleurs - so I can write well, and read, and speak correctly but with an accent. I can't pick much up listening, and I have a hard time understanding what I hear, where if I read it I'd understand.

SF_H, your post reminds me of a funny experience for me. We were in Buzios over New Years, and there were these little girls we'd seen out a few times and I was talking up the cute one, she was probably 18, and we were in some botique store off of the main street... and the music being played was that 'my clit, my clit, lick my pussy and my crack' song and she and her friends were singing along word for word... i said to her "do you know the meaning of the words to the song?" she had no clue. hell, she must not be the only one, as they were playing the song on the radio or on a tape at the boutique!

(Message edited by FLmonger on March 21, 2004)

Ardqneas, I'll ditto your recommendation on Portuguese Verbs and Essentials of Grammar - Sue Tyson-Ward. It goes way beyond what probably most of us really need to know about grammer but I like the way the book handles not only all the tenses but give numerous examples of every one. It also handles the nouns, pronouns, numbers, time, and lots of other details. And the last few pages are great with the complete breakdown of the major irregular verbs. Pimsleur often times doesn't tell you enough about what tense you are actually saying and or else they say one form in English but are saying another in Portuguese.

Sue Tyson has another book by the same company called Brazilian Portuguese that apparently can be purchased with some oral language lessons. I just have the book. It is a series of conversations that handle any number of situations. In between there is a great deal of grammer and various exercises.

Just to ruin your day when you think that you are finally beginning to learn something of the language here is a web site that has both extensive written and spoken news and current events:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/portuguese/index.shtml

I am doing pretty good with the written material but I can't understand a word of the spoken broadcasts. Incidentaly, this site also has news in a number of other languages.

OK, here's a good article I just now got off the BBC site. And it deals with things that we all love. Paid sex. Virginity. Intenet auctions.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Britânica vende por R$ 42 mil virgindade leiloada pela internet.

A universitária Rosie Reid, de 18 anos, vendeu a sua virgindade por 8,4 mil libras – o equivalente a R$ 42 mil – em um leilão na internet para pagar os seus estudos, segundo o tablóide britânico News of The World.
Um técnico divorciado, de 44 anos, da companhia telefônica British Telecom teria sido o ganhador do leilão e passado a noite com Reid, que é lésbica, em um hotel em Euston, na região central de Londres.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/portuguese/noticias/story/2004/03/040321_virgemebc.shtml

My first trip to Brasil was in May 2002. I could speak some basic Spanish, and I listened to the first 4 X 30 minute lessons of Pimsleur. I quickly got bored with Pimsleur.

Here it is close to two years later, and I can speak close to NO portuguese. When I watch television, I can understand very little of what is going on unless I have english subtitles. When I try and speak it is with a heavy heavy horrible english accent. When I have trouble, the only thing I use is a little Portuguese - English dictionary. My vocabulary is close to non existant, and I use spanish to conjugate verbs. And you can forget about writing anything in Portuguese.

My point is that it just doesn't seem to be that important. I know lots of friends that are taking lessons to be able to speak good Portugese, but as long as you have a dictionary and point at things, you can almost always get by.

Tightfit:

Jeezus, the girl is butt-ugly too.. how f-ing stupid can a guy be to pay US$13K to pop that cherry? Go to LOS or even Eastern Europe, for chrissakes... hell, for 13K I'm sure there are some takers on THIS board. The best part of the article were the obligatory "I felt so humiliated, I was so glad when it was over" comments from the ex-virgin. Hey, YOU decided to ebay your twat, so don't bother acting like the 7th Holy Virgin Martyr of Padua! Anyway, the whole thing was a reprint of an article in the UK "News of the World", I'm sure the next column over was an Elvis sighting...

Still, it was hilarious, thanks for posting it!

BS

Sue Tyson has another book by the same company called Brazilian Portuguese that apparently can be purchased with some oral language lessons. I just have the book. It is a series of conversations that handle any number of situations. In between there is a great deal of grammer and various exercises.

Are you referring to "Teach Yourself Brazilian Portuguese"? This was the first book I bought and it only came with one cassette tape. This has a nice layout and would be ideal for a once-off holiday but for those who want to learn a lot, the Living Language book is more comprehensive.

A friend of mine who's a lawyer in Rio had a similar story with the "my clit, my clit, lick my crack etc." song when a work colleague was singing it in the office. He asked her if she knew what she was saying. As she didn't he explained it in Brazilian slang, at which point the other Brazilians had a go at him for using such coarse language at work.

I have her book "Brasilian Portuguese" I don't have the tape for it, but it's pretty useful. More like a tourist language phrasebook than anything else. No monger phrases, alas.

Need "free" language lessons? I've been using WinMx to download music for a while now. I tried getting the Pimsleur Portuguese material last year but with the 28k dial up I had at the time it was a lost cause. Now I have cable at 3000k and it's a different matter. Today I walked into one of their chat rooms (Faery's Language Archives) that is just for trading langauge mp3s. Some of these people have more language files than many have in music. One trader had over 2000 files including complete sets of every darn language you could think off. How about 10 lessons of slang in Polish? Besides the usual Pimsleur there are also a number of other programs.

Thanks for the tip. I would use that if I revisit some of the spanish speaking countries, or get to Thailand. I don't like the thought of not being able to communicate at all so a Pimsleur course would help.

I bought my Pimsleur sets a few years ago. Handy to have the CDs but I don't owe them anything as they are quite pricey.

The Sue Tyson-Ward book comes with (ordered separately) two CDs. The set seems to be pretty good, although kind of fast out of the starting gate, and I haven't used it much while I'm going through Pimsleur. I plan to get into it sooner or later, but Pimsleur is easier to use while driving than a book.

TF--can you provide more info on these chat rooms and language files? And I've not heard of WinMx.

I have that book, it's called "teach yourself Brazilian Portuguese", the current edition has a colourful photo of Carneval on the front. The ISBN number is 0071420045.

I'm using it for my Portuguese class, my Brazilian teacher makes a few corrections each time. She says it's good but there are some times when there is something more appropiate way to say something. Also, she thinks that the CD's go through things too quickly to be of use.

One more thing to note, this is not American English as the author is from the UK. Amazon reviewers give it 2/5. There are typos and the organisation could be cleaned up too.

(Message edited by downandup on March 25, 2004)

Hunterman, WinMx is one of the main programs that people use to download files. Mostly mp3s but you can also get pictures and movies. And e-books and software. Go to http://www.slyck.com/ which is a good overall site for the whole category of downloading software. They have forums, guides, and links to downloading whichever program you want. Plus lots of news including the most recent RIAA lawsuits against music downloaders.

On WinMx there is a section for chat rooms which is HUGE. Most of them are your typical retarded 15-25 y/o sex wannabies, there are a surprising number in French, and also quite a few directed towards specific types of music. Faery's Language Archives is one such semi permanent chat room.

Yesterday I wasted 4 hours downloading half of the total Rosetta Stone Brazilian Portuguese language program. Don't ask. Wierd file format, hard to open, completely screwed up system which I eventually deleted after giving up on making it work. However, I must have seen at least 5 others with complete sets of the Pimsleur Brazilian Portuguese which is 90 lessons altogether.

Warning: even if you have a fast connection with someone else having the needed language files, these can be very large files and may take a while to download. A typical Pimsleur lesson at 96kbps is around 21,000KBs. With a good DSL or cable in both directions that would take 10-20 minutes. You may decide it's easier just to buy the complete set for around $35 or so on http://www.usedtapes.com/education.asp?sort=forsale

Thanks, TF. As far as Pimsleur, my cousin bought the pirated MP3 on CD set, along with a few other Portuguese-related programs (for $75 from someone at Meia Pataca, I think). He gave them to me as we left Rio, and I burned CDs from the MP3's so I could play them in my car and keep replaying the last few seconds so I can get the pronunciation right (or figure out what the hell they're saying). Better than downloading, maybe not quite as easy or cheap as buying used (the MP3 to CD program cost $30). Anyway, I'm up to P II Lesson 22 now. Still can't understand (fast) spoken Portuguese, though.

Anyway, I'll check out the sites after I catch up with CH.

My first trip to Brazil I had studied the first 6 Pimsler lessons, and could have only the most basic conversation only with someone who was very patient and really wanted to talk to me. My seconod trip I had done 26 lessons, and it made a huge difference in my communication. I could ocnverse easily with cab drivers, not only stating my desired destination, but even getting info about bars in Salvador for picking up whores. My conversations with the girls were still more limited than I would have preferred, but much more extensive than the first trip. For example, I was able to speak with two girls at the beach for a good fifteen minutes (albeit simple concepts) finally resulting in getting a phone number from one. What I found more difficult was phone conversation, and understanding Portuguese spoken fast. I still speak very slowly and deliberately, and have to ask others to speak more slowly. Also the first 26 lessons still leave you with a fairly limited vocabulary, although most of the words and phrases are very useful for traveling. I plan to complete Pimnsleur POrt II then take a formal class or hire a tutor. Interactive conversation is really necessary in order to learn to understand spoken POrtuguese. I did find though that the listen and repeat method of Pimsleur was pretty good in developing good pronunciation. I was told by several Brasilians that my pronunciation was good. Of course theres no way to know if they were just being polite. I did seem to be understood better than I could understand.

Has anyone used Rosetta Stone? It's an interactive CD and sounds good from the ads, just wondering if it's effective as compared to Pimsleur. Of course you cant listen to it while driving, it requires a PC.

I downloaded the Portuguese Rosetta Stone the other week. Apparently I was missing some software because I could never open it correctly. I've since found the necessary accompaning files but haven't had the time to play around them. What I found the first time was a huge collection of photos which I gather go hand in hand with a text describing them and short oral clips. Because of lacking the correct unifying software I was forced to listen to individual 3 or 4 second sound bites. That got tiring real quick. I didn't hear all that much that I hadn't already studied on Pimsleur. It was nice to hear a different accent though.

Several days ago I also downloaded something called The Living Language course in Brazilian Portuguese. My copy has 40 individual lessons on it that are around 4-5 minutes each. I get the feeling that there is a written text that accompanies the oral part. Just skimming through several lessons finds nothing but short statements that end with a question. "You are living here, right?" I miss the complete dialogues that you find on Pimsleur. The accents on this series are naturally very different and the speaker(s) haul ass compared to the relatively slow and carefully pronounced Pimsleur. I guess that's good although I wouldn't want to start this way. Also, there is nothing said so far in English which is why I am assuming there must be a written part or otherwise the listener wouldn't have a clue as to what was being said. Hey, I must have learned something because I could understand most of the 3 lessons even if the guy was speaking 100 mph.

I found both of these programs in Faeries Language Room, a chat room, on WinMx. Some of the people who hang out in the room have literally hundreds of foreign language lessons in dozens of different language. Did you know that there is an Eastern Arabic? Or how about Polish slang? Thai slang? While you can find users with some pretty specialized and seemingly useless dialects along with users having all the main languages (Spanish, French, German, Chinese, Russian) not too many seem to care about Portuguese. Wonder why?

Tigt_fit, I have both Rosetta I and II, if you want a copy of the books that go with it, I'd be happy to send it to you. I have only looked at RS a little because I want to finish Pimsleur III first.

Thanks, I may take you up on it. I've been stalled on lesson 8, part III for weeks now with one excuse after another. Today I finally did lesson 9 and learned how to say "I need the details of the guest list". It's going to feel strange once I finally finish this. Kind of lonely if you know what I mean. I've got to find a real live person to practice with.

I do know what you mean, I guess there is not much hope for a Pimsleur IV any time soon. I have tried to find someone local for private instruction but I live in an area without a large Brazilian base. I have Brazilian friends here but they lack any real training in teaching so when I am with them it is only of limited help.
(Damn, it's pretty bad when i type the word help and other visions enter my mind) My friends all talk so fast I can only key in on every few words but I least I can get the gist of what they are talking about. On the other hand I can make myself understood pretty well since I can speak slow and usually think of some word, if not the perfect one, to express myself.

Exactly. You reach a point where you can say quite a bit but still aren't able to understand much of what they say. Maybe that's why some guys join these foreign matchmaking outfits. They are perfectly happy with having someone who just smiles.

Yea, but that would get old real quick. A little over a year ago I took a Barbarella girl off the market for about 6 months. She spoke almost no English, and back then, I spoke almost no Port. It was a lot of fun at first, but after many nights of conversation like "I like you", "You like me?", "You want to eat?", you begin to realize how important real communication is. After that learning experience I swore that I would learn Portuguese and be able to have a relationship with a Brazilada that meant something. That said, it also helps pick up Rio-Sul girls and negotiate better prices\emoticon{talker}. I'm going to the Czech Republic in June and I just bought Pimsleurs Czech Course to study before I go, maybe not much help, but It couldn't hurt.

Anybody been in the Faery's Language Archives chat room on WinMx recently?
I can't seem to find it. I'm a new WinMX user.