I have been contemplating living abroad for over a year now. After deliberating over a few cities, I decided to settle on Rio. I am aware that living somewhere is completely different from visiting for a couple weeks at a time. I also know that I havent even begun to scratch the surface when it comes to what really goes on in this city (nor do I really intend to find out). However, I would like to experience Rio from a slightly different perspective.

Two years ago my business partner and I started a media design company which enables both of us to be mobile with our work. Therefore, I have been fortunate enough to travel frequently all while working and earning a decent living. Over the last three months my partner has been living in Amsterdam and as of late I have had the urge to venture out as well. In posting this, I am hoping some of you experts could lend your expertise about what to expect. As well as any suggestions you may have on best neighborhoods to stay in (Im thinking Ipanema), etc etc.

Some info on me:
1. 32 years old and I love the termas (especially Centaurus, Solarium, and 4x4). I prefer meeting a girl working in the termas and hooking up with her again/later. This just seems to work for me because I know they work regularly which gives me the time/freedom to work (or play).

2. I have done the Help thing and it has been hit and miss for me. Have gone occasionally but not a nightly occurrence.

3. Portuguese level is intermediate. Can hold basic conversations/get directions/order food. I plan on getting an instructor that I can see at least twice a week to improve.

4. Have been to Rio 6 times before yet this will be the first time flying solo. Looking for some gringo friendly spots where I can meet some decent locals. Also would be good to know some guys who have relocated or have been living there for some time to show me the ropes (in particular, what not do do).

5. Love sports and ever since World Cup, soccer (Futebol) has grown on me considerably.


Just wanted to hear any and all suggestions you guys may have. Like I stated, I know living is way different than a nice two week vacation. As of now I am procuring living arrangements through a couple friends I have met on previous visits.

Thanks in advance!

Thawk, I think many of us here are in the same situation as you and can relocate and work if desired. I really hope you will keep us up to date on your experiences - pro and con. As for Rio, you've been there as much as I. I doubt I have any advice you don't already know. Live the dream amigo.

Well, I'll give my two cents - As far as looking for some gringo friendly spots where you can meet some decent locals. I have made some good friends along the way in Shenanigans in Ipanema. There is almost always a crowd of locals and also gringo's living in Rio that hang out there on a regular basis. Most are pretty approachable and work for local companies - the majority of gringo's work in the oil business. Another regular hang-out spot is the Balcony Bar in Copa. There is usually a regular crowd there on Sunday's. Some of the other places - like TA - are little harder from a mixing perspective. Another popular place for both locals and gringo's is Emporium in Ipanema.

The problem is that it is usually easy to meet friends, but if they are gringo's then the majority tend to be on vacation or short stays.

I also have made Brazilian friends through girls that I have met along the way. Otherwise, unless you speak really well Portuguese and are very well versed on soccer, it is somewhat awkward trying to form a friendship with a Brazilian guy in a public place.

Now after some time I have made a good circle of male Brazilian friends, but it took time - A couple of my better friends I met at Pampa Grill after repeated visits there and continuing to run into them. It was usually the same guys hunting girls and one time we were all after the same girls. That prompted conversation and subsequently a friendship.

Lapa is an ever popular spot....

I am always around....so if you want to meet up for a few dozen beers, let me know.

One more note....if you are looking for buddies to hit up termas, etc, you will probably be better off getting to know gringo's. Most of my Brazilian friends have enough trouble paying for a regular nightclub, much less a program in a terma.

When are you planning to begin your adventure? I've lived in Brazil in 2003 but right now I am taking a little break in the US. Will be back in September.

First thing is visa. Theoretically, you are allowed to stay 6 months during any 12 month period of time. Also, the max stay is 90 days. I have found that if you leave before 90 days, and then return quickly, you can stay well over 6 months in a 12 month period of time.

Your other option once you are past the 90 days is to get an extension at Policia Federal. That gets you to 6 months total.

So a big question is whether you are going to leave Brazil at all during the 12 month period of time and if so for how long?

Ipanema, Lagoa, Leblon, Jardim Botanico, Botafogo, and Flamengo are all nice places to live with nice views.

I got married in 2006, but from 2003 - 2006, I was single and living in Rio de Janeiro. Like you are planning, my company is based in the US but enabled me to work in Rio. I have to admit it was the most fun I had in my entire life. There is nothing like being single and living in Rio.

Couple of other quick pointers:
1. Get a local cell phone and pay as you go.
2. Get a VOIP for international calls.
3. Buy your electronics outside of Brazil. They are really expensive. A $50 printer would cost $200 in Brazil.

I would strongly recommend keeping your living arrangements in Ipanema, Copa, or Leblon. Ipanema is probably the best for a location and security perspective and is probably preferred by the majority of people I know. There are other nice areas, but those three areas are the most convenient. Copa will be the cheapest of the three options. Ipanema and Leblon are considered the most desirable....while some might argue that includes Lagoa. But the problem with Lagoa is that most everything is far away and you have to walk quite a way to buy groceries, etc.

Now the biggest piece of advice - unless you line up some apartment in advance, be patient. Looking for an apartment in Rio takes patience. Trying to find a nice and affordable apartment in Ipanema and Leblon can be a frustrating experience. The monthly rent in Ipanema and Leblon averages about R$2500 - including condo fees (which can range from R$300 - R$600)- for a furnished "average" apartment. Higher end will be in the R$3000 range. Copa tends to be around or less then R$2000. Before inking the deal always ask if the rent being quoted includes the condo fee to avoid any ugly surprises. Also be aware that some owners will be hesitant to sign a lease agreement for more then 3 months due to local laws that favor tenants over landlords.

I would say the rental market in Rio is a sellers market, versus a buyers market like the US. Very few *nice* apartments at *reasonable* prices.

bluelight,

I will definitely keep the board apprised to any juicy info in regards to my experiences (good or bad). To temporarily live in a city like Rio can definitely be a dream. I just need to make sure I do everything I can to prevent it turning into a nightmare. Thats why I am here my friend.

Lovingmarvin,

You have always had great advice my friend. In regards to where I am staying, I hope to stay in Ipanema – for the same reasons you speak of (security, proximity to shopping, academia, beaches, and lets not forget the women). My Portuguese is above average. I say above average because I can read just about everything as well as write. My problem however is that other than my ex (Brazilian here in the states), I haven't really developed a great ability to always understand what is being spoken/said. As I see it, this is my biggest worry. I have the Rosetta Stone series, as well as many other helpful learning tools but I know until I am completely immersed in the environment it will be a challenge. For this reason alone I am seeking out a tutor while during my stay. By the way, I dont know if you will be around but I wont arrive till end of this year (Dezembro) when business starts to taper off a bit. Maybe we can get some beers and share a couple stories.

Thanks again for the info!

Bluestraveller,

Great info! I wont arrive until December but I figured the sooner I get things in order, the smoother the whole thing goes. My visa just expired in April so I will be renewing it once I get the airline ticket. Thanks for the info about the visa. The plan is to stay roughly 150 days +/-. During that period I may return home 2 times at most.Any recommendations on which cell phone carrier is the best for pay as you go? I plan to use Skype for my international calls (is that VOIP?) I will definitely need internet connection (preferably wifi due to my laptops). Any advice you have on this would be beneficial as well. BTW, I got a lot of info on a similar post you made here a few years back. I think some of it could still be applied today. Congrats on finding Mrs. Right. Hopefully its still a great as it was from day one. Tell me if you can, how receptive are non-working women in Rio to the thought of dating gringos? Last time while I was BodyTech I saw one of the most gorgeous Cariocas I had ever seen. She actually assisted me in getting the 30 day membership (com disconte). I was a bit apprehensive about approaching her but this time I am determined to see what its like to enjoy a non working garota.

Thanks again/in advance!

It's been awhile since I've been in Brazil but I ran a contract work force there for a decade. One thing to consider (if still available) is a type V visa {pretty sure that is the one I had}. It was $1200 but allowed unlimited entry/exit. It also made it much easier to write off all travel/hotel/meals and per diem. At the time I was entitled to $165/day + travel costs...the real wobbled around but at 3.8 or so at one point that was pretty nice.

I ran into a lot of oil guys on the flights and at one point got a company apt on a sublease for a very reasonable price since I had an appropriate visa (vs the typical tourist rate).

As a side note if you stay outside the US for as year (think your allowed 2 weeks in US) for a year you might benefit from tax laws. If you have a good account/tax attorney I'd review the realities. If your making good coin then the ability to write off cost is significant.

Obviously you need to have a demonstrated intent to try and build a business base in Brazil/South America. When I started it was a "monkey business" level of intent that quickly turned into a stable cash flow of $30-40,000/month across Brazil, Argentina and Peru (as well as Mexico).

I've had another business in development for 2 years with the intent of using to springboard a similar interest.

I'll be around for sure....getting closer to Carnival and I will taking advantage of all the activities that will start in January. I usually only travel back to the US for work every 2 months and then only for one week.

VOIP - Skype is the most common, easiest to use. In my apartment I have a couple of back-up systems since my work and $$ all depends on a good Internet connection - I mainly use Vonage...Skype is my backup, as well as a Lingo DID (A Rio number tied to my US Lingo number). This local number allows me to ALWAYS have access to make calls to the US even without Internet. I forward it to a long distance dial-out number in the US.

Wireless 3G is available (I use OI), but I have found the VOIP experience to be so so with it. I have the highest speed 1mb, but the upload speed is really sucky at times which makes your end sound garbled to the other person you speaking to.

Getting Internet service installed is a breeze - Net (Cable) is the most reliable and I have always had good experience with them. Appointments are quick - sometimes next day - and they show up during their scheduled time. But, the minimum contract period is 1 year so you will have to pay a penalty for cancelling after 6 months. The other option is Oi Velox (DSL) - but you need a fixed line and the appointments take much longer to schedule.

I would probably recommend Net, because they offer some good packages that include not just Internet, but digital cable, and a fixed phone. My package for everything runs less then R$300 and includes premimum channels like HBO, Telecine, etc... plus I get 12mb download speed.

All you need is a CPF to order the service yourself....very easy to get. There is a place in Ipanema where you can get it.

As far as local versus tourist prices - I really hope you have a different experience then I and others I know, but Ipanema is popular and inventory for long term rentals are limited. Most of the oil guys I know have beautiful apartments that are paid by their company, but one told me his apartment runs in the R$6000 a month range. Not exactly a special price. Plus you are coming during high season (Dec - Feb is peak), so you better get everything lined up as soon as possible.

Regarding cell phones - I recommend either Oi or Claro. Both offer free Internet torpedoes/SMS. I use the torpedos quite a bit. TIM does not offer any free internet SMS, but I believe Vivo does. But it all depends on the type of promotions they run when you come. Sometimes they have a double up promotion, I remember TIM before had buy R$25 and get R$25 free promotion.

As far as how receptive "regular" non-GDP Caricoa's are to dating gringos - that I can without doubt answer to them being very receptive. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. All the time I read stuff about them not being receptive and thinking about gringo's being bad and sex tourist - that is a bunch of bullshit. Of course there might be a few that want nothing to do with gringo's but I found those to be in the minority, but it all boils down to good old human chemistry, looks, and how outgoing you are. If someone looks like a troll, they will have difficulties anywhere - in the US and Brazil. If you are moderatly good looking, then there will be no issues. But you have to be outgoing and willing to approach women. Also being able to take the 'No's that come along with that. It is afterall like telemarking - some will bite, some will not. Normal stuff!

CPF is one of the first things you will need. You will need your birth certificate with you, and then you will get your CPF number, and they will mail a card to a local address within about 2 weeks after you apply. But the key is your number, and then you can write it down when filling out forms. No one ever asks for your actual CPF card so far as I know.

I use Velox, mainly for the longest time, I had DirecTV (which is now Sky) so I did not have cable TV. But that said, I have been very happy with Velox over the years.

If you are going to leave Brazil twice within 150 days, then you really have nothing to worry about. The maximum stay is 90 days so you are well within tolerances.

If you are going to be working strictly out of your residence, then I don't recommend wifi. That advice goes for outside of Brazil too.

In general, I think that a lot of Brazilian women are attractive to non Brazilian men. Same as a lot of American woman are attracted to non Americans, etc. I would say that Brazilian women are more open, but there are no rules. Just give it a shot and see what happens. BTW. Ipanema has a certain reputation for stuck up women.

I think you know this, but if you are on a tourist visa, you will be unable to open a bank account. So most likely your primary source of cash will be the ATM machines to your foreign bank. Might want to check out the international fees at your bank because you will probably be doing it a lot.

Once you get your first bill (cell phone, light, whatever), make a copy. You will need that for other things to prove you live in Brazil.

My plan is to spend Dec - Jan in the US with family during the holidays but I will definitely be there Feb 2010 and beyond. There are tons and tons of great restaurants in Rio as well.

One other piece of advice when you apply for your CPF they will want your mother and fathers names. You need to use the names as they appear on you birth certificate. I did not and it caused me problems later on. May never be a problem for you but good to start on the right foot.

What everyone else said. Also get certified copies of all your documents, preferably several of them, and know what you will need for every step of the way depending which visa you will get.

You're right that language will be your biggest hurdle at the start, so study now as much as you can. Rosetta Stone, Pimsleur, and other systems are a great start. Being immersed is better. Find some local Brasileiros if you can and make an arrangement for time to speak Portuguese with them. DVDs or TV shows with Portuguese language and/or subtitles will also help. Apply yourself, because it's east to slack off.

After nearly a year living in Brazil, I'm finally starting to feel like I can carry most of my side of a conversation some fraction of the time, although some accents and rapid speaking still pose major problems.

I read the aforementioned posts and just had to chime in with a much different perspective than the obvious things (like it great meeting so many cute girls). And no shit you need to be able to speak Portuguese more than just simple phrases like, "Oi, tudo bem".

I too have/had the inclination of living in Rio since I mostly operate out of virtual office. I gave it a test drive a couple years back and here is my opinion of Rio living as a "normal" person than a "tourist".

First off, living a normal life means having normal friendship relationships. I found this impossible to do with the local people. You are always viewed as a Gringo and it always feels like someone has an angle. You get screwed over a couple of times and really develop a real sense of paranoia when it comes to trusting people. Local people always seem to have money issues. It can be petty and sometimes just downright annoying. And because you are a Gringo, YOU don't know what it is like. It gets REAL old of their stupid fucking attitude.

Second off, romantic relationships. Brasilian girls are sexy, they are good in bed for sure. But, they are some of the craziest bitches I have ever met. Being a tourist, I thought it was just the whores. But, I really think it is all women there. Jealousy and craziness runs rampant. You could meet the nicest, sweetest girl...but leave it up to her sister, mother, grandmother, aunt, some other female family to put some crazy shit ideas in her that you are certainly cheating/lying/whatever else to her behind her back.

Third, I think it is just more a Rio thing than a Brasilian thing but people just lie too much. If you ever heard the saying -- "Say what you mean, mean what you say" then it must be impossible to translate that in the minds of Carioca people. Again, it becomes absolute bullshit afterwhile. Lieing is like some kind pastime like futebol and sex. It is just part of the culture. Again, how can you lead a happy, normal lifestyle when you never really know if what someone tells you they will really do. They will just smile and move one like oh well, that is just Brasil.

Fourth, infrastructure. Things we take for granted like decent electrical wiring, plumbing, etc. just pretty much sucks. And when there is a problem is sucks even harder to find someone who knows what they are doing. Going to a gym where things weren't constantly broken was real problem. The way they fuck you over on cell phone usage blows my mind. Their internet there is very erractic especially during late afternoon hours, very frustrating when you are trying to run a virtual office.

Fifth, imports. Think about how many things you use in Rio that are imported. When you visit, you probably bring down enough of these things or arent down long enough that you miss them. Anything that is worth a damn in Rio has to be imported and the government there fucking ass-rapes you with their 50-100% taxes that makes things 100-200-300% more expensive than you would want to pay for it. It is stupid example, but my Nike shoes got ripped on a motorcycle. A replacement pair would have been 500R or wait until some friend could bring me a pair. Basic electronics like memory cards, cabling, whatever is 3 times more expensive. Shit just breaks and there is no BestBuy down the street you can just pick up what you need.

Sixth, warped sense of reality. I am not sure how you can take 30,40,50 years or whatever age you are to just not take the aforementioned things and start clouding your perspective. Face it, Brasilians (and Rio brasilians specifically) do some things that will just go against your values and possibly your morals.
After awhile of being there, I felt I started changing and not for the better. I found myself lieing myself and believing my own lies.

Rio is very nice place to visit. Don't get me wrong that I love being a tourist there. Now with the economic conditions like they are, things in the U.S. are actually more affordable and I prefer living here. I can honestly say the only thing I miss about Brasil are the girls. The cumulation of a lot of little things will really make you see that is actually a pain in the ass living in Rio compared to another major metro U.S. city.

My suggestion would be to only commit to 2-3 months to test drive it out. After about timeframe you start notice it in a much different perspective than a 2-4 week vacation.
The materialistic stuff I was just ranting about, but it is the very real things like trust and romantic friendships that in my opinion are very, very difficult between a Gringo and a Brasilian.

I think the fact that there aren't too many resident Hombres in Rio anymore says a lot. Aside from Don and Ken and the other apartment/tourist dudes, the numbers are way, way down. Travelsrr is a quasi resident, Coffeemaker was coming down for pretty close to the six month max each year but has but back a lot. Anjinho too. Hemp and SFHombre and chichi99 and those guys, they're just occasional visitors now. Bluestraveler still spends a lot of time in the US, but is pretty much a full-time resident with family commitments. LovingMarvin, kjtrav, Husband of the Black Widow, they're still here. Of course most all have US jobs they work out of here.

Most of the retiree Hombres have moved on, and the ranks of the worker/monger are pretty thin now.

The real is also much hire now. Makes things just a lot more expensive.

MM

I don't think you can generalize about what it's like to live in Rio full time, especially having done it for only a short time. Every person has their own experience, like LovingMarvin for instance seems to have good friends and no regrets about living there.

Most of what you've described are the stereotypes associated with Rio and although there is some truth to stereotypes it is not everyone's experience. For instance, the people in LA have the reputation of being superficial and shallow. It's true that many are, and especially if you just showed up and were living there but not really working there (like in a virtual office), most of the people you'd meet in bars, clubs and gyms would probably fit that description. But if you worked there or studied there and had a regular life you'd find many regular genuine people. The same is true for Rio. I also think you have to live there for sometime to meet the right people and also to appear as though you are a resident and no longer a tourist. If you are just there for 4-6 months it's likely that you would still be viewed as an outsider. Spend over 2 years there and you'd have a different experience.

As for the women being jealous and crazy, many on this board would agree that that's not just true for Brazilian women.

Here is a quick analysis of LL's points. I have lived in Rio since May 2003 (a little over 6 years). Here are my observations.

1. Gringo forever. True. No matter how hard you work on your Portuguese or ingrain yourself in Brazilian culture, you will always be a Gringo. That said, that is not all bad. To some, you are a curiosity. To many, America has a special shine and appeal. There is a good and bad. In the beginning, I do think that a lot of people wanted to take advantage of the new guy, but now that I have been around a while I don't sense that so much.

2. Women are crazy. True. I think that it is wrong to attribute this to Brazilian women. All women are nutty (from the eyes of a man) independent of nationality.

3. Brazilians are liars. False. I agree that people lie all over the world, but it is a dangerous thing to start calling people that live in a particular country liars. It is much better to search for honest people independent of nationality.

4. Infrastructure. True. Life is a little more difficult in Rio. My personal experience is that it is worse than the US for sure but not to the degree that LL suggests. Electric outages happen frequently. I am going to say 3-4 times/year where as in the US, you can go entire year without experiencing one. Same with internet. I would say my up time on internet here in Brazil is 95%, and the US is 99%.

5. Imports are expensive. True. This has not cost me much since I have always traveled back and forth and brought back all of the stuff I need. Also, they recently increased the customs limit so you can bring in R$3000 worth of stuff each time. This trip I brought back a router, a phone system, a printer and a notebook, and it all was well under the R$3000 limit.

6. Warped sense of Reality. False. It is almost a philosophical question. Do you make your environment or does your environment make you? The only change in my sense of reality is that I expect a really hot women to be really good in bed too.

One last note. There is no doubt a big adjustment coming from America to Brazil. One key reason is that Rio is one of the biggest cities in the world. I have never lived in a place with so many people before. Basic things become more difficult. That said, there are many pluses. In a big city, there are some awesome restaurants and Rio is no exception.

Having lived here for the last two years I would pretty much second Bluestravellers experiences. Through my job I meet a lof of middle and upper middle class Brasilians, some of which I trust as much as any American. I have been invited out to dinner and never paid a dime. Lots of things are different and take an adjustment.

I do not know why the whole Gringo thing is such a hang up. I think the biggest problem is that some gringo's simply cannot adjust to being a Carioca.

Things work differently in Rio and so are the people. It is not that they lie, but if you understand the culture and people you know things are just said to be said...it does not mean that they will come true. I do the same thing now and I understand completely when it is done to me.

I guess on the women front, I completely disagree with many of the above comments. Most gringos I know insist on getting involved with working girls. Most of those type of relationships are going to be a disaster....but there are MANY MANY MANY MANY fantastic normal everyday women in Rio. But, it does take work and some game. It really is not that different then anywhere else. If you are ugly (sorry , it is horrible word but it is what it is), have no personality (having personality, by the way, is the most important factor about meeting someone in Rio), do not know how to talk, have fun, or interact, etc, then you will be loser in Rio just like in anywhere else - the only difference is that in Rio there are always putas available and guys insist on getting involved with them. Those girls will most likely turn out to be completely crazy and readily take advantage of opportunities given to them. Also, if you are 50 years old and looking for a 20 year old - well, sorry, then there is probably high likehood that she is not with you for just love.

Key point - It is sooooo important to keep the same sensibilities in place when it comes to dating in Rio then anywhere else in the world.

The key to happiness in Rio is becoming a Carioca. Understanding how people interact, how things are said, how to be playful and not take things to serious, being affectionate to your friends and dates, etc..... if you do not have the ability to do so, Rio is not the right place for you.

As far as the "Gringo forever" - That might be true, but it mostly because of the way many of us act. If you meet the right kind of people and adapt to being a Brazilian - vs expecting the other way around - Gringo becomes much less of a stigma. But gringos act like gringo's - I see this myself all the time and my Brazilian friends comment the same. For that reason I do not like going out with newbies to Rio and try to avoid it all together, unless they are former friends. Some of the regulars will never get it either....

What has made me happy and successful in Rio is the fact that I love the city - I love the people and their ways. I understand them. I have adapted to become like them and with that have been able to build friendships and met some incredible fantastic women along the way (including my current incredible wonderful wife). I remain an unfaithful and ruthless man chasing tail.....adapting to be a Carioca.

Well, I will step off my soap box now. Is Rio for everyone - certainly not. If you come to Rio to live and want to chase working girls, well then you will certainly see the worst side of this city and its people.

If you take the time to learn the language, learn how to be outgoing, friendly, and understand the Cariocas, you will certainly find Rio to be a fantastic and magical place to live. Also, I think the #1 rule is NOT to get involved in relationships with working girls. Learn to talk to women, flirt, talk, and take rejection which comes alongside success and acceptance - and you will find happiness. Dating in the regular world is a numbers game - it is the same in Rio.

Once you make friends, the social life in Rio can be of the hook..... I am way overcommitted, but again, that is what Brazilians do. Commit, but really they do not commit. I have three commitments on Saturday.....not sure I will make it to anyone of them, nor is it 100% certain that those commitments really were mean to be real. From my side, it all depends on how late I want to sleep and - most importantly - the weather. Also, maybe a better offer comes up.

Now living expenses - again, learn to be a Brazilian and you will spend less. I posted in another thread that the majority of Brazilians do not have alot of disposable income. Well, as a result I had to adapt if I wanted to go out and meet with my friends. The majority of my Brazilian friends do not eat at R$40 a Kilo places....but rather R$20. They pre-drink, choose low cost places, etc.... if you do the same, you will find Rio to be an extremely cheap place!

Go with the flow..................

Here are some unwritten rules -

If you are invited to a party or plan to meet a group, usually everyone arrives one hour late. Just adapt accordingly, better to be late then early

If you make plans with a group of people and it happens to rain on that day, most likely those plans will not happen. Rain for the most part means people stay home....even if you were planning on meeting indoors.

If you have regular lower/lower middle class friends, plans for the beginning of the month are more realistic then at the end of the month. People get paid at the beginning of each month....most places will be packed the first week and as each week passes people have less money. Month end plans are the worst...

As far as saving money - Each Tuesday and Friday there are open markets in Ipanema that sell fresh fruits, vegetables, etc, are very low prices. I usually pay about $3.00 for enough fresh oranges to make freshly squeezed orange juice all week long. Brocolis and Cauliflower costs about $1.00. Filet Mignon's are cheap at Zona Sul - like $5.00 for two fillets - .... if you eat at home (which I do 4-5 times a week), it is surprisingly cheap.

Take the bus and metro versus taxi's....etc, etc, etc...

(*All prices quoted in USD)

Agree 100% with Lovingmarvin. Very well said.

LM (and even BT).

You say you disagree with some of my points, only to say that to cope to living in Rio you have to become a Carioca yourself. Such as "over-committing" -- telling someone you will be there but just don't bother showing up because you just (don't) feel like it. That is lieing and kind of a jerk on the way I was brought up. Then you say you have a wife, but you chase tail constantly. That is cheating, again being dishonest and unfaithful. Basically, faith and trust is the basis of a loving relationship.

So, you have no problem -- lieing, cheating, being unfaithful, being a cheap-ass petty ass.

To me those are things the Cariocas accept as being "Carioca". Fortunately, my clients and friends don't treat me that way and I don't treat them like that either. If I did, I would not have a good business or strong relationships.

The original poster mentioned he has a media business which allows him to work virtually -- hence, still working with other Americans.
When you tell Americans the meeting is at 9:00am, it is 9:00am not 10:00am or maybe tomorrow if today is sunny/nice. And if you can't make it, you call and not the next day. You don't just smile and "go with the flow". It is considered rude, disrespectful and most of all not to be trusted with their business.

I don't want to EVER become a Carioca. Again, I don't want to generalize all Brasilian as being Carioca-like. From what I had learned is that Cariocas will rip off fellow Brasilians, just like people from Miami will rip off fellow Americans.

I am firm believer that you are only as good as your reputation. I believe in honesty, committing to things you say and doing those things.
If I deviated from this behavior -- then I would have to start growing my own vegetable b/c no one would want to do business with me (and therefore, I would have far less cash flow).

I do agree with your #1 rule -- not getting involved with whores for relationships.

But, whether you disagree or agree -- you essentially reconfirm points 1, 3, 4, 5, 6.

#1 - Always a gringo (or try to become Carioca)
#3 - Overcommitting and saying "yes" (when it would be impolite to say "no") is for some reason not lieing in the Carioca culture. It is being a LIAR.
#4 - Infrastructure like roadways, comunications, etc. are no way on par to comparable U.S. cities
#5 - Unless you traveling back/forth several times a year or have someone who does, then you fucked over on real essential things.
#6 - LM has changed his belief systeme "to live in Rio become a Carioca". Or be a Gringo-forever.

I don't think it is enough to speak Portuguese, have some money, and like soccer to live in Rio. There is a tremendous of bullshit you either deal with or become yourself.

So when did you leave the priesthood to join this mongering board? These are very gentile and socially responsible comments. Are Carioca's different then the rest of Brazilians, yes - for the most part. But the point is that if you want to live in Rio you need to adapt and - even more importantly - like the culture. If you do not, then you will simply not be happy. I fell in love with Rio and its people because of the flaws, imperfections, and the day to day "jeitinho" of the Carioca's. That is why I stayed and that is why I am as happy as pig in shit. Maybe I am rolling around in shit, but I am happy.

Now, we do not need to agree nor need to be pals, but this thread just demonstrates that living for Rio is not for everyone.

You also talk about differences in infrastructure and essentials...well, this is afterall not the US...When in Rome do like the Romans do.

Did I reconfirm points you essentially reconfirm points 1, 3, 4, 5, 6? Maybe from your perspective, but from mine I confirmed them within a completely different context.

Well Damn Fellas!!!
I go away for a few weeks and come back to find out this thread has taken on a life of its own. Despite the obvious differences, I feel I have gained a tremendous amount of info/insight from you gentleman. For that I can not thank you enough. I know living in Rio will be enormously different than being in the states. Hell, I will be a fish out of water essentially. But thats why I only want to do it for a few months, initially. I do have other questions that I will ask some of you privately as I dont want to take away from the threads momentum. Thanks a ton fellas. And by all means, continue to post your insight if you feel the need.

I am also planning on living in Rio for an extended stay starting next July. I am planning on 3 to 6 months maybe longer. This thread has really out a lot. Thanks. Finding an apartment that is affordable is my biggest concern. Other than that I am just figuring out which flip flops and board shorts to bring and which beer is the best. Im sure I will figure it out. Definitely would like to meet some of the gringos who are living there for insight and stories and of course meeting women. Cheers.

Lovingmarvin,
As a long-time resident and observer of Rio trends, what do you think of the current prices as compared to other western countries? Do you think the current upward trend is going to continue?

I think at this point the cost of living in Rio is right up there with that of the majority of Western countries...in same cases even higher. Probably comparable to New York or San Francisco. Real Estate costs are insane....especially in areas like Ipanema or Leblon. Having shopped around recently, the average price of a nice apartment (at least in my book) is around USD$400-$500K. I saw a small studio, on the 3rd floor, without an elevator listed for R$300K, i.e. aprx USD $170K.

Brazil is booming, two big events are coming to Rio - The Olympics and the World Cup, and people continue to flock to Rio.....the current upward trend is definitely going to continue....

All the desirable areas of Rio are built out, with no room for new constructions. Where old building are being torn down, more expensive ones are put in their place.

In South America, Brazil is easily the most expensive country to live when it comes to its cities like Sao Paulo and Rio. You can still find bargains in the northern parts or interior, but I certainly could not live there (One central phone in the entire town type of places :-)

LovingMarvin, what do you think will happen to Rio afer the Olympics? One of my best friends and I have standing arguement over the future of Rio. He thinks that real estate costs will continue to go thru the roof. I firmly believe that about 1-2 years after the Olympics, the price of real estate in Copa will plummet into the toilet. It would be interesting to hear what a rio resident thinks.

With the fact that they've done absolutely zero construction since the Olympics were announced 9 months ago, I think the real question should be "will the Olympics actually be held in Rio?" I'm still not seeing how they're going to get the Metro to Barra in the next 70 months or so, much less build any roads. Venues in Zone Oeste, hotels in Zona Sul and Centro with cruise ships docked in Centro. Still no way to get all those people from hotels to arenas.

Why would anyone move to Rio just because the Olympics are going to be there? Are people moving to London also?

I would suggest that people are moving there for the same reason my company wants to open an office there. The next 20+ years the country is going to be one of the engines of world growth. Every international company needs to have an office or more there.

I agree that the major players will need offices in Brazil if they don't already have them. But Rio? What are they going to do, import people from Sao Paulo to work in the offices? The Carioca work ethic is close to non-existent. That would have to change before the city could become any serious sort of business center.

A second thing is to get a handle on the Rio crime situation, but the recent trend has been encouraging and they have a shot at getting crime under control. But something approaching a work ethic? Hard to believe that's going to happen.

Bluelight how can you head back to Rio? isn't there a 5.3" black haired. blue eyed bundle of fury with put a contract out on you?

Sorry old friend could not resist.

LAguy, excellent point. Rio is, from a business perspective, about the 4th spot a company would set up shop. Sao Paulo is far and away the first place to put an office. Brasilia is 2nd, Porto Alegre is probably 3rd. Rio is maybe a bit ahead of Belo Horizonte but other than Globo and Petrobras - two big players to be sure - there isn't much else in Rio. All of the banks, telecommunications companies, ISPs, manufacturing, media, etc are elsewhere.

"Why would anyone move to Rio just because the Olympics are going to be there??"".... the question was related to cost.....The Olympics is just another factor. One of many. Sao Paulo certainly is much more desirable from a business perspective then Rio, but the plain fact is that there is no room to grow in Rio in the desirable areas...that will continue to drive prices up. I just do not see real estate prices diving... there is just too little inventory of real estate and no new construction to compete with. Rio is huge, but the reality is that the desirable neighborhoods are all in Zona Sul...Barra after that. Barra still has plenty of room to grow, especially as you move out further to Recreio. But most anyone with money will certainly prefer to move to Zona Sul before Recreio.

Brazil is booming....people have more money to spend. Inflation pressures will continue!

Rio might not be the business center that Sao Paulo is, but people continue to flock here. Many foreigners, and Brazilians with buying power.

Unfortunately I see prices going up and up! Even if remove the World Cup and the Olympics completely from the picture, I see this trend continuing - for now.

But everything has a peak....I am not sure where that peak is for Rio. I continue to meet new Expats and this trend is telling in itself. Most of those, even after their jobs take them back to wherever, want to find a way to stay in Rio. One recently transferred Oil guy, for example, who returned back to the US is absolutely trying like crazy to come back....

Rio has a spell....despite its dangers, its many imperfections and problems. It is a wonderful place to live....Carioca's might not be the hardest workers, but in many survey's have been ranked as the happiest (Forbes ranked it #1).

Unless Brazil overall starts to tank from an economic perspective - which i do not see happening anytime soon - prices are on their way for everything.

Cat, OGX and Vale are headquartered in Rio.

It's easy to predict that the Rio real estate boom will go bust at some point (but when--is the big question), and the real will fall with it.

Is the Rio real estate boom a bubble? It shares few features with the US housing bubble. Housing prices may be over-valued, but not so much that I think there will be a collapse. More likely it will peak soon and hold.

And the Rio housing market, should it go bust, probably won't affect the Real that much. If the entire country's housing market imploded, yes, but housing prices have not gone quite as insane in other places. And the price increases were not artificially created by the availability of easy and cheap financing, as was the case in the US.

Good point.....there certainly is not an easy and cheap way of financing available anywhere close to that in in the US. Banks are starting to loan more then they did in the past and there were some specific housing programs targeted towards the working class, but all done within reason. Banks require a lot of documentation, proof that income to monthly payment will not be higher then 25-30%, higher down payments, etc. Also until the recent years, most Brazilian's I know - including those in my family - all own their property outright since it was so difficult to get financing in the past. The norm being until just a few years ago to save up the money to buy the home you wanted. Now, my Brazilian family does not own property in Zona Sul so an outright purchase was much more realistic when prices are in the R$50-R$100K range in some of the other areas.

Interest rates to buy a home still are in the 9% or so range..

In the Brazilian Business magazine Exame, June 30th, 2010, edition it states that Brazil last year had the 3rd highest inflation in home prices, 22%, only lead by Hong Kong and Singapore. For the Zona Sul regions, there was a 70% increase in home prices reported in some cases....CRAZY!!!!! the magazine breaks down prices per region and major cities - Rio prices, believe it or not, beat those of Sao Paulo.

It shows the average price per square meter (10.7 feet) to be 8100-8500 for used, and 11000-11500 for new construction in Ipanema and Leblon. So that would put a used 1000sq ft apartment at around R$750K, and new construction at over one million. It also shows that the average salary in Ipanema and Leblon is in the R$13000 (i.e. USD$7300) a month range.

One little tibit about credit as well...A CPF is similiar to the US Social Security Card. However, unlike in the US there is no such things as 7 years for "things to drop of your credit". Here, in Brazil, something that has not been paid will stay on forever....until paid!! No availablity of bankruptcy either....

Real estate booms can exist without easy credit and go bust. Japan had a big real estate bust 10-15 years ago, from which that country is still recovering, and Japan has a rock solid banking system. There is a lot of money in Brazil now, and real estate prices are heating up in other parts of the country, as well. At the first sign of real or imagined trouble, Brazilians traditionally run to the "safety" of the dollar--unlike the yen, in which the Japapnese and the rest of world have faith. (The impending election and then election of Lula had people running from the real sending it to its--now longed for--lowest rate.) If the Rio real estate market has problems, there will be a ripple effect in the other boom and mini-boom areas of the country.

For now, Dilma Rousseff is seen as the predecessor of Lula. I think she will keep Lula's policies relatively in place, so I do not see much political instability. The dollar is pretty low right now compared to the Real, so people are definitely not fleeing to the dollar.

I do wish we could get some leftist radical come into power, driving the dollar up. Everybody expected that from Lula, but in the end he become much more moderate then anyone expected. It will be interesting to see if this trend continues.

Brazilian's are a resilient bunch of people - they have seen all sorts of ups and downs, in the end the recession that most of the world experienced had pretty little ripple effects putting them into a pretty good position for now.

I live in Brazil, to be more precise, in Rio, Copacabana, near extinct Help.
Funny, nobody here remembered me. Many of the posters on this thread have stopped over at my apartment, some prolific posters have spent some time renting rooms in my place. So really surprising that nobody remembers I live here. But sorry I never saw this thread, I usually just check the chat board.

All the long term residents, contact me and drop by to chat. Some contact never hurts. Visitors also, feel free to contact me when here, or better before you come. I can probably give some good advice.

For newbies as well as for experienced travellers, a stay at my apartment can be a good learning experience. I have been lving in Brazil for many decades. I try to help other people, too, but staying right here in my apartment is sort of like total immersion. Most people jsut stay for a few weeks, but actually, there are a few good reasons to stay longer: for example I have pretty reliable internet here (DSL with 1-3 different 3G services as backup). But, before people scream "spam", no hard sell: if you feel happier elsewhere, no problem. You still are free to contact me and I try to help out with advice.

Brazilians are liars? Well, one of my major mistakes was not watching novelas. The only one I watched from the beginning to the end opened my eyes. People always, constantly, invent schemes to screw each other. Strangers, of course, but also their customers, business partners, friends, lovers, their own mother and father. And novelas are the school where you learn about how this is done. Only through years of schooling can people get the creativity to always find ways to rip off others. The culture of impunity encourages such behavior, just 2 days ago a few high and supreme court judges received the worst possible punishment for receiving millions to make decision favorable to gambling vice lords. That worst punishment was mandatory retirement with full salary: in other words, keep getting your salary, but no more need to work for it. 24 000 Reais per month. A German judge told me that is much more then a judge in Germany gets, and this is where your tax money goes. The next day the corrupt received a stay, so the corrupt judges are back at their jobs.

So lying certainly is rampant. And gringos are favorite targets: they have more money, they are gullible, they have no clue about legal morass here. And they don't take revenge like Brazilians: they don't beat you up, they don't get you killed, they don't have a police relative that plants a pound of cocaine in your car to bust you with it, or at least a tax office friend who can harrass you.

I have a history of paying huge amounts of money to lawyers, who in turn f.ck me over, partially through amazing incompetence, partially clearly on purpose: they must be receiving kickbacks from the other party or just be good friends with them. So I am also paying huge amounts of money to people for losing or settling frivolous absurd law suits. The major absurdity are labor laws. But also tax laws: government has been suing me for 10 years for HUGE amounts of taxes & interest & penalties: I already paid the taxes timely in 1992. There are also girlfriends, police, government agencies that want to shake you down. To make things worse, the lawyers you hire might be conspiring against you, too. So I can only recommend everyone to have no money here, to live out of ATM machines, to rent, not buy, and if you absolutely have to own a home, not to own anything else.

LovingMarvin: you seem to have gotten the knack of living here, I am more like CincoLeche: too much integrity to adapt to the lifestyle here. I would love to meet you and you giving me some personal classes in how to adapt to this unreliability.

There are also the little things: it is funny to see a girl in the shower, who says: "I am in the elevator, wait one more minute downstairs". Or "my taxi is arriving in Barra da Tijuca" when she is just arriving in Ipanema. But if you are on the receiving end of this, you think she arrives in 5 minutes, and instead wait for 3 hours, time enough you could have gone to the movies, had she been honest. So I really don't understand why these people think they are "nice" for saying such lies. Maybe a Carioca would go to the movies anyway, even if the other party says she is arriving in a few minutes.?

LovingMarvin if you can give me a hint of how to deal with unreliable girls that make appointments and don't keep them: I make appointments with my favorites to visit me at home, and 90% flake out while promising to come for sure, even telling they are in the bus on their way. If they do that twice, I am so p.ssed that I don't even want to see them. Of course, a lot of this has to do with the fact of dealing with pros, or lower class people.

There are other interesting options, of course. Either to be extremely well connected with powerful people. Or move the the very south of Brazil, Curitiba, Porto Alegre, where things are much more civilized and European.

Bluestraveller said
5. Imports are expensive. True. This has not cost me much since I have always traveled back and forth and brought back all of the stuff I need. Also, they recently increased the customs limit so you can bring in R$3000 worth of stuff each time. This trip I brought back a router, a phone system, a printer and a notebook, and it all was well under the R$3000 limit.

>>Where did you get that R$ 3000 limit story from? Brazilian residents have a 500 dollar limit. Tourists have a 500 dollar limit for stuff that obviously are not used things for their own use. Like computer motherboards they bring along for their Brazilian friend. Though they just changed the law and now allow residents to bring a free camera etc but no computer. There seems to be a 3000 dollar limit for tourists own used stuff, which is actually a trap for people who carry an expensive Laptop plus photo equipment.


kjtrav said:
Having lived here for the last two years I would pretty much second Bluestravellers experiences. Through my job I meet a lof of middle and upper middle class Brasilians, some of which I trust as much as any American.
>> you probably don't have enough property in Brazil to be an interesting target for upper class people to scheme against you. If you have a few hundret thousand in property here, middle and upper class people might get interested in shaking you down, too.

LovingMarvin said:
If you are invited to a party or plan to meet a group, usually everyone arrives one hour late. Just adapt accordingly, better to be late then early

>> the problem is: sometimes you cannot even trust things are always late. Court dates, for examples, are usually 1-5 hours late, so you lose over half of your day. Occasionally, a lawyer arrives 5 minutes late. He was already called timely, was not there. case closed, case lost.

LovingMarvin said
One little tibit about credit as well...A CPF is similiar to the US Social Security Card. However, unlike in the US there is no such things as 7 years for "things to drop of your credit". Here, in Brazil, something that has not been paid will stay on forever....until paid!! No availablity of bankruptcy either....

>> it drops off after 5, or even 3 years. Except taxes and labor law suits, child support, etc ......

Yeah, the bad CPF was indeed due to unpaid taxes explaining why it is still showing. It is actually a family member, who owes some money due to a failed business. Can't deposit anything into the bank in his name and CPF, otherwise they sweep right in and get the money.

As far as having adapted to life in Rio quite well....Not sure why, it just came easy to me. After awhile I became like them....I also take anything anyone tells me with a grain of salt. Waiting for a girl for three hours??? Never would happen....After an hour (I generally build in a 30 minute to 1 hour buffer from the agreed upon time anyway - meaning I mark it earlier then I really want to meet), I would just go on with my day not really frustrated about it. I have had girls do the "I am 5 minutes away", but really are more then an hour away....I just take off and do my thing. When she arrives and I am not there, she has to wait....that is the way it goes.

I guess I know what to expect and do not get frustrated about things. Carioca's especially are unreliable...I just adapted. Once I become unreliable as well, both culture's just mashed and my life became easier, as well as maintaining friendships. Now I do the 5 - 10 minute response as well....show up an hour late, and none of my Carioca's friends ever get upset with me.

Girl wise....After my 1st relationship went sour, I adopted a "I am the boss" attitude. This has worked for me....no girl in Rio will control me, or demand absurd things...they can try, but it won't go anywhere! I have no patiences for bitches! Plenty of bitches that want to suck money out of some gringo waiting in line....just got to learn how to use that (which I have all to well), and in the end I come out ahead with minimal cash outlay. I make lots of promises to girls...but generally never keep them unless it benefits me.

To be a happy Gringo in Rio, you just have to think and act like an SOB!

Happy as a pig in shit....lots of shit in Rio, for sure :-)

Forgot to mention one important thing: One huge difference in Brazilian's from a regional perspective - Paulista's are different from Carioca's, Baianas, Gauchos, etc.

Carioca's followed by Baianas are famous for their somewhat laid back ways.... Paulista's for their serious ways (more or less the Brazilian Gringo's).

Then we have a whole subset of a different Brazilian species - the GDP's, i.e. working girls..they are in a class all by themselves with their thieving, conniving, and unreliable ways. But from what I have seen so far in my travels throughout the world, these are commonly shared traits.

Cariocas aren't laid back, they're fucking lazy and stupid compared to paulistas or paranensas or gauchos or anyone else from southern Brasil. Maybe not stupid, just 100% lacking in common sense.

Thieving lazy dumbasses would be my description. If the garotas didn't fuck so well not many of us would stick around the place.

LovingMarvin, I have a serious defect. For some funny reason, I learned a moral system of total honesty. Even saying I am 10 minutes away when I am an hour away, for me is dishonest and cheating. Even if I notice that people translate 10 minutes into an hour, or rather into "30 minutes to 2 hours, or never".


I only learned to tell the car repair man that I needed the car urgently for Tuesday, when I really needed it for Friday. Then I would come on Tuesday, and at least he would start working on the car on Wednesday.

Now what every successful man does, lying to girls and making false promises, I never learned that. I keep 100% of all my promises. Of course, this is why I promise very little, and thus am unromantic and sound uninteresting. And then get irritated if I promise something quite valuable and they don't react on it. Of course, they think I am a lying bastard as everone else and just bullsh.tting.

So I don't know how to cure myself of that disease called total honesty and total integrity and total reliability. I am aware that this is a real profound moral liability.

I also usually keep my end of an agreement, even though the other party does not live up to it. Only after getting stiffed the 2nd or third time do renege on an agreement.

So if you want to meet someone at 2, you make an appointment at 1. If they don't show up by 2, you are free to go. and you don't need to wait at 1 either, if they come early they call you and then wait!? Clever!

Tell me some of the promises you make to the girls. Maybe I still can be cured and can learn.

One can't change the way most Brasilians (or people in general) interact and LM and BS take 2 polar ways of dealing with things..LM's sounds appears less stressful for sure...at the end of the day, its up to the individual to be comfortable in their own skin with their own approach.