I am coming to Juarez on the May 12 weekend and
will buy Dougie a steak dinner for all the
hard work in finding all the places to go to
in Juarez and also for some info Dreameagle
has helped with. If you guys are around let me
know.. If fact everybody that shows up gets a
free drink. I think I am going into the interior
deep into Chihuahua to see the indians and some
historic places having to do with Pancho Villa.
But I am also going to make the rounds of all
my favorite massage places and clubs.

I'll take you up on that offer, Doc. You talking about the steak house by the Villa Manport? If so, what time would you suggest? Thanks much, by the way...

Dreamingeagle, I will be in Juarez on Thursday
afternoon, so Thursday night would be good. I am flying standby but there should be no problem.
I can meet you at the steakhouse down from the
Villa Manport or any other place you might
like in Juarez at maybe 6-8 pm-let me know
where you, and if Dougie comes, want to eat and
at what time...I will be back in Juarez also in
a month or so ... if you cant make it perhaps
then... I am looking forward to talking to the
Goddess who was at the 4-10 and seeing if Marta
is still there. I am going to try some of the
olther massage places too and then go into the
interior of Chihuahua....

Ok, Doc, here you go...

You said some people might like hearing about aspects of Juárez which have nothing to do with girls, so I am going to give you my impressions as a basis for what might be a lively discussion at dinner. A lot of people will not agree with them.

I think México is like those like those little trick images kids get in cereal boxes. Hold it one way, you see only the hustlers, pimps, transvestites, and drug addicts stalking the streets in Zona Roja and the bar district. This is the place from which most Americans take their impressions of Juárez, and it seems to me one generation of Americans after another have bad experiences there and perpetuate the myth that every Mexican man is out to slit your throat for $30 and that all the policemen in Juárez are corrupt. It's the ugly side of the image.

The other side of the image is just as beautiful as the ugly side is frightening and peligroso. Juárez is an old bitch with holes in her streets and the same low-life you find in any big city in the world, but 99.8% of her people are hard-working decent types who are far, far too busy with their own doings to pay much attention to some gringo wandering around. When I think of Juárez, I no longer think of the low-lifes on the streets of Zona Roja. I think of the many nights I have spent in the bar of Villa Manport Hotel in the company of my friend Elva, the bartender, and her many friends who have shown me nothing but kindness despite my poor Spanish. I think of the guy who did the make ready on my apartment and walked me all around the neighborhood and showed me how all the buses run and bought me lunch so I would feel welcome there. He always comes up on Saturday mornings to see how I am doing. And I think of my friend, Rojelio, a cab driver to whom I entrusted a lot of money to finalize the apartment on a Monday morning because I could not be there and how, arriving the next Saturday, I found him eager to take me there and sign the papers, just as planned.

Nor am I simply someone enthralled with the sounds of Spanish guitars and the excitement of being in a new country viewing things with rose-colored glasses. I have spent more time in Juárez in the past year than most people living here on the border have spent there in their entire lives.
Yet they continue to speak ill of Juárez and make every American who wants to go there feel afraid when there is nothing to be afraid of if one is respectful.

Nor am I much concerned about whether or not I am getting the rock bottom price there from anything from leather goods to the girls in order to prove I am savvy man of the world. It seems to me the Mexicans are poor enough without me making them give up their goods and services for a pittance out of desparation. I do not see how taking advantage of their plight makes one savvy or wise.
I do not pay anything unreasonable, but I refuse to haggle over every nickel and dime when nothing in the United States can compare the value found in Mexico.

So, I would say again that México is like those trick images you find in children's cereal boxes. How you view her, and how she views you and responds to you, depends upon how you hold her.

The girls are *always* there for you in Juárez, but they are only a small part of the picture. My advice to anyone who wants to really wants to experience Mexico is to be a great embassador of the United States and show them the same respect you would show to new people at home. Brush off the hustlers just like you do here, and trust whom your instincts tell you to trust just as you do here---and don't hedge on it.

Seems like sometimes it's considered anti-American to heap praise on any people other than Americans, but I think now we are just one of the great peoples in the world and that the wealth of a people cannot be measured in money. The Mexicans may be poorer than we are, but they somehow manage to keep the cars running, the lights on, to dress nicely, to run a polite society, and to keep a positive attitude about life.

I really like it there...

If you are going to Chiajuajua to visit the Indians and learn more about Pancho Villa, I suspect I am preaching to the choir here. But I just think some things need to be said even here on a whore monger forum. If you come here just looking for cheap pussy that's what you will find. If you dismiss all the preconceptions our world has put in place about Mexico and her people you will get the girls *and* the pleasure of seeing what's really on the other side of the image.

It took me a year to quit hiding money in my socks, Doc, so I thought a little insight into what's really going on across the border might be of interest to those who are either new to Mexico or still not sure if they are safe here.

"Brush off the hustlers just like you do here, and trust whom your instincts tell you to trust just as you do here---and don't hedge on it."

Amen.

"I really like it there..."

It shows.

Dreaming Eagle, that was well written with good
thought sequence: however try walking around the
old market place on La Paz at night alone and
dressed like a Gringo or in the zona around
san sousi after 100am when the police make their
sweep and you will wish your money was back in your sock. I remember one night on La Paz I
witnessed a old man get in a fight with a much
younger man when they tumbled out of a bar...
both had been drinking heavy...while the fight
was going on a street girl came walking by and
seeing the police down the street called
out to them. They came running up and dragged
the younger man out of the bar, the old man still was on the ground ,and they took
him to the other side of one of the buildings
that was in the middle of the street,so that no
one could see what they were doing, which was
going through his pockets, after a body search and
I didnt see him anymore. The old man didnt have
any money and they could tell just by looking at
him and searched him in plain view. They let
the old man go and he went back into the bar. They had seen me standing outside and waited around for awhile...I had gone into the bar and
discovered it was a pay for dance place and met
a very simpatica girl that I visited quite awhile
with then waited for a large group of people to
come walking by and joined the group and then
walked out of La Paz street. Vowing to only
go again with someone or during the day when
the police are not hanging out. Amazing thing
about La Paz and the old marketplace-I have
never seen a tourist... I am sure tourists find
the old market but it doesnt seem tobe in very
large numbers...the old marketplace is one of my
favorite places to go in the morning and at lunch.
It is facinating to people watch and find shops
I havent been in before.......

I haven't been to La Paz yet, but the Zona is indeed extraordinarily dangerous at night. I would suggest never walking there at night. That's the ugly side of the image I was talking about. Unfortunately, that's all we hear about, and Juárez is a vastly bigger and much better place than that. I try to balance things out for people who know nothing about the other side of the coin.

If you still want to meet for dinner on Saturday, Doc, try to let me know by tomorrow afternoon. I leave right after work about 5:00 MST on Fridays.

Well, Doc, I didn't hear from you so I went to the steakhouse between 6:30 and 7:30 thinking you might pop in. We'll try again...

Well Dreamingeagle I was in a big rush to see
patients before I left thursday afternoon and
did not check the board to see if anyone was
interested in meeting me. However I will be back.
Thanks for telling me about the Herredero steak
house. The filet mignon was one of the best
steaks of that kind I have ever had. The Mexican
Filet Mignon is different than the U.S. Thanks
also to Dougie for mentioning the buses traveling
down H. Escobar in front of the Villa Manport.
For some reason I was reluctant to ride on them
before but I had thought about it as a good way
to see the town. I know downtown enough that I did not get lost when the bus let me off and I
rode a bus twice to downtown and saved from $10
to $16 . I have always stayed at the hotels
downtown but tried the Villa Manport for the
first time and it is certainly in a good
location.
I noticed a change in the police. Apparently many of the corrupt ones employed
by the old administration are gone and the new
ones are on bicycles and their ages arein their early 20's.
I noticed in the newspaper that there
were some new massage parlors compared to when
I was there a few months ago.

Yeah, I was worried about riding the buses, too, for quite a long time. But 40 cents is a great deal compared to the taxis, and they seem to run all day and night, not to mention being entertaining. Every guy had his bus fixed up his own way, and it's not unusual to see someone in the back of the bus playing a guitar for cambio. Some of them are actually quite good. One guy was singing 50's songs in English last weekend and doing a good job of it. The bus drivers will also help you out if you are not sure where to get off.

The police, however, have not changed much. They will still shake you down in zona roja, but once you are away from zona roja they never seem to bother you. I have been walking around now and riding the buses for weeks and am passed by the police all the time. I think it's possible to take impressions from the bar district and superimpose them on your expectations of what to expect in the rest of the city, but I haven't had any problems anywhere else. My Mexican friends tell me this is pretty much right on.

My analogy about the dual image was really based upon the difference between things in the red light district and elsewhere in Juárez. It's two totally different worlds. The red light district is like a bad neighborhood in New York or L.A. Most of Juárez is just people going about their own business. Tell you the truth, the girls are always there, and I look forward to seeing the better side of things in Juárez now as much as I do the girls.

If you make friends at the Villa Manport, I can promise you that you will want to keep coming back.

>>The filet mignon was one of the best
steaks of that kind I have ever had. The Mexican
Filet Mignon is different than the U.S. Thanks
also to Dougie for mentioning the buses traveling
down H. Escobar in front of the Villa Manport. <<

I somehow managed to miss out on this entire thread. Didn't matter because I would not have been able to make it anyway. Maybe some other time, my trips are usually planned well ahead of time so I will be able to give plenty of advance notice.

I was unprepared for what I got when I ordered the Filet Mignon at El Herradero. I'm not really a fan of mushrooms and sauce on a steak but I ate it anyway and liked it besides my preconcieved notions of what a Filet Mignon is supposed to be. If you want a more "traditional" filet order the Filet a la Parilla. Stay away from the Filet Santa Luisa though, it's covered with cheese and pretty gross. The T-bones are good and probably the best value of anything in the place.

Another good steak house is El Toro Bronco, on Av. de las Americas & Calle de Sucre, a little south of Hnos. Escobar, not too far from the hotel. A little more expensive than El Herradero but still a great value. Give it a try sometime.

Hey Dreamingeagle, that post on "El crapo grande" had to go on the Top 10 list.

Hey, I may be able to make it out to El Paso (only place in Texas I've never been) this week, around Aug 7 or 8. Let me know if you would be free for an afternoon to show me around.

I am a HS Spanish teacher so we wont' have any problems with the "Mexican special" translation problems of which you mentioned...

Pop me an e-mail if interested. But do it by Saturday. Later Gator UHalum@excite.com