Live and let live.

What other people do or say is their business, as long as they do not harm others or the environment.

I hope this a reasonable standard by which to conduct one's life.

Of course, many people differ when they push for other agenda, such as prohibition on a person's use of marijuana, abortion, or sex worker. These agenda harm others?

I have been visiting Pattaya regularly beginning 2014 for various reasons. Better air, less crime than Manila. Need for a change from transvestites' attacks on Angeles City's Balibago main street (occurred in Feb 2014 on Fields Avenue).

I see myself as a romance traveler.


To explain: I have never been successful in getting a "nice" girl to fall in love with me. So, my love quotient is/was arrested at age 18-25. While I do pay a girl for sexual release, I half-hope for an emotional bond; although to have good sex with one of every ten girls is acceptable.

That emotional bond is also becoming tied into my senior's need to find someone for proper disposal of my body, sooner or later.

On the other hand, I recognized that I am/was not a great catch for a woman. Simply not attractive enough for a "nice" woman. Consequently, never married. Then later, I learned that sex with one woman was not enough. To be a one-woman man, I need sex and more, like romantic love, shared interests, etc.

The upside of never married is that I listen to other men complained about their divorced wives and was relieved ??? to be single, at least up to now.

"Third sex" meant to me was that group of non-straight men and non-straight women. Third sex included homosexual men, homosexual women, bi-sexual people, and orgy people. The closest I got to them was attending concerts and a drink in a bar with a couple of gay men already committed to each other. They were very humorous, especially on straight people and about my looking better when hair covered my face. Nice people and sorry I lost track of them years ago when I left NYC.

When I began paying for sex in foregin country in the early 1980s, there were always one or two clubs near the sex areas. There were baklas in Manila's Ermita neighborhood and kathoeys in Bangkok on the so-called Patpong 3 street. Once, a friend and I spotted a kathoey posing as a female dancer amid a hundred dancers in a Patpong club. We bought a lady drink for a dancer, who admitted that there were two katoeys in the club but refused to tell us who the second one was. My friend and I thought we could always spot the kathoeys, but we learned differently at least from more than ten feet away.

Back then, all the bar girls were 5-feet tall or shorter, slim, and mostly flat-chested.

Nowadays, bar girls come in all shapes and sizes. Tall girls are a question mark for me. I always look closely to determine if they are male or not? An adam's apple was the supposed male clue, as well as voice, physique, musculature, body movement, behavior, etc.

Years ago, friends have told me of taking a girl back to their room and finding out that the girl when unclothed has a penis. They got angry, asked the bakla-kathoey to leave the room quickly.

So, a penis on a girl was the definitive sign of a bakla-kathoey.

Several months ago, in the middle of intercourse with a Pattaya girl in my hotel room, I felt that something was not right. She was short and more attractive than my usual girls. But, I usually got a really attractive girl only once in awhile in spite of the numerous male customers. Although the girl was not passionate, she did everyhthing I wanted. But, something was not right. Several months later on a different trip, I barfined her again when I saw her on stage. But, again in the middle of sex, I got that same feeling that something was not right.

Later, after much thinking over weeks, I guess that the wrongness I sensed was her vagina. Usually after minutes of conjugal insertions, vaginals achieve a certain elasticity and self-lubrication while retaining or lessening their initial container tightness. This girl's vagina did not have a combination of those three factors that I have experienced with maybe a thousand other girls.

I have heard that men could get an operation to turn them into women.

I first heard of this in 1979 on a midnight interview program on the cable televsion Playboy channel. A guy living with a former-male turned girl was asked if he could tell the difference between the former male and a real girl? He replied that she(ex-he) was tighter.

Over a year ago, I saw a US network television hour-long program about the third sex in the Philippines and Pattaya, Thailand. One bakla was participating in a third sex beauty contest in order to try to win enough money to get a sex change operation.

On a discussion board, someone asked about a hospital recommended for plastic surgery. One answer was a hospital in Bangkok, where many ladyboys received sex change operations.

So, the terms ladyboy may be used with an assortment of different meanings. Correct me, if the following, of which I know very little, is incorrect and/or imprecise:
... Transgender is a catchall term for male-female conflicted beings. See wikipedia.org for more information.
... Transvestite is someone who dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex.
... Transexual is someone who mentally identifies self as a gender not assigned physically.
... Trans.?. is someone who has been surgically altered to appear as opposite sex. Also, called post-op.
... Trans.?. is someone who acts or thinks as a male one day and as a female on another day. ... Trannie is slang that could refer to any of the preceding.

At a Saturday afternoon get-together of mostly Americans -- at Welkom Inn until May 2015 (now at BJ Holiday Lodge, on soi 3 near Beach Road), I thought I asked the Pattaya expats. I waited until about 4 pm when most of the fellows had left and only six of us die-hards were still talking. I asked if anyone has had sex with a girl who was suspected of being a post-operative male?

Surprise. All of them. They said that living in Pattaya a girl you having sex with might easily have been a male. One guy said that a transvestite said that she was going to get a sex change operation and he had promised to her if he-she did have the operation; so she(ex-he) did and he kept his word and paid her bar fine and had sex with her. Another guy said that he was drunk and when he paid her bar fine, his friend questioned his choice but did not explain why; in the morning when he sobered up, he discovered his error. A third guy asked, what difference did it make; a vagina was a vagina.

I did not try to reply. How does one explain the difference between butter and margarine, leather and leatherette, and driving a gasoline engine in a Tesla chassis? How do I explain my search for romance to bitter men divorced several times?

On television news and internet news, a few reports on ladyboys:

. . . Posted in August 2013, kathoeys using their stiletto heels killed a male tourist on soi 7. See www.thaivisa. com/forum/topic/662139-norwegian-beaten-to-death-soi-7-pattaya/

. . . Last year, the local Pattaya channel reported that after a tourist was mugged on Beach Road, the police arrested 100 females on Beach Road and at the police station 70 females were ladyboys.

. . . In April 2015, six ladyboys attacked a Canadian couple and the police fined the couple for defending themselves in public. See bangkokpost. com/news/general/532779/ladyboy-attack-victims-threaten-to-leave-thailand

. . . In May 2015, local Pattaya channel in English reported:.

First, the police had arrested 34 ladyboys on Walking Street. All were released at the police station, except for three held until their drug tests came back and two held for assaulting tourists. (Shit, more ladyboy violence. Is AC coming to Pattaya?)

Second, a Miss Tiffany's beauty contest had been held. A few contestants looked male, but many looked like the tall dance girls in go-go clubs.

Now, as I visit the go-go clubs in Pattaya, not only do I check who has breast implants, who has too many tattoos, and who looks like a ladyboy but also who looks surgically altered?

The Saturday get-together group said that all the Pattaya go-go clubs and beer bars had ladyboys.

That is not fair. Customers who want a ladyboy can go to Boyz Town (near Soi 13/4), soi 6, and soi honey, Action Street (on soi buakhao). But, a ladyboy hidden among real girls is false advertisement. Such third sex's presence should be announced, prior to a customer's selection. And definitely prior to buying a lady drink or paying a bar fine.

Scientific research might explain and/or solve ladyboys:

. . . One research study on overcrowded rats resulted in the emergence of rats with sexual deviant behavior. Overpopulation, environment contaminants, artificial stuff in food, etc can cause biological damages.

. . . Neuro scientists are finding that certain areas of the human brain without the proper amounts of a chemical, hormone, etc cause the human subject to be depress, violent, or other non-normal behavior.

. . . Epigenetics study changes to the building blocks (A, G, T, C) of DNA, which form genes. Specifically, chemical changes to C, called methylation, can be caused by such factors as extreme environmental, diet, or exercise stress, especially early in life. One extreme stress is starvation, as shown in psychotic mice studies. Such genetic change can extend down to two generations, from a grandparent to a grandchild. In other words, DNA which is the basis of all living things evolves to shape different species and oddities of nature, such as ladyboys.

Researchers should study trannies. And, Congress should stop arguing about gay marriages and fund scientific research into how human DNA, brain, and behavior have changed and causes.

In any case, I have cut my bar fines by 70 percent. I am asking club manager and mama-sans to identify whether a likely girl is a ladyboy?

In fact, I already spoke to managers and mama-sans at three go-go clubs on Walking Street and one massage parlor near 2nd Road (Sai 2). They all claimed that other clubs had ladyboys but not in their business establishments. One explained that the surest way to identify a ladyboy was to look at the Thai ID, because the ID will show a male's name which cannot be changed on the ID.

The other night, I was sitting in a go-go club off of Walking Street, enjoying a libation, watching the semi-nude women on stage, and wearing my $25 Hawaiian shirt for the first time in Pattaya. A tall, half-dressed late-20s woman covered in tattoos planked her butt on the cushioned bench seat next to me and suddenly grabbed my forearm, as though she had the right to throw her body on any club customer ignoring her. I pushed her away and told her to keep her hands to herself. She got angry, got up, and went over to a nearby threesome. She pointed at me and said something in Thai. They looked at her like she was crazy, ignored her, and did not even look in my direction. She walked off looking for another customer to target. Her reaction to my rebuff was pure ladyboy. I am not returning to that club on this trip, because I do not want to be spiked with the high-heel of a woman's shoe.

If you plan on visiting Pattaya, beware that Pattaya is swarmed with trannies.

I say:
Live and let live, as long as
-- there is no harm to others and the environment, and
-- there is advance notice of nearby ladyboy(s).

---------------------------- Soi 6 Party

By the way, Soi 6 (between Beach Road and 2nd Road -- also called Sai 1 and Sai 2) has its annual street party on the weekend of Friday, June 5 and Saturday, June 6, 2015 from early afternoon to late at night. They claimed 55 bars, 700+ girls, free food, and fun. But, you might want to take this claim with a grain of salt, like bars and clubs claiming a night-long pig roast party. (food served late and disappeared in half an hour).

Note that I have seen obvious ladyboys and ladymen on Soi 6.

GG, if you ever again find yourself in a "doubting" situation in bed, just conduct a cervix check. Those cannot be faked. Vagina with cervix = real woman. Vagina with no cervix = chopped ladyboy.

It helps to have long fingers though, as some women go deep.

GG;
So you are saying you had sex with a homosexual who changed into a woman??? listen, i truly simphatize but that's is something you and only you have to live with for the rest of your life. if i was you, i would get me a through full medical check up to make sure you didn't get any medical side effects (STDs).
How you didn't see the person wasn't really a woman??? have to say those kaoteys in thailand do look well presentable; but; at least to me is pretty damn obviuos i see men and not the real thing!!!! if you really take your time and compare a real thai woman against a katoey; you will see a lot of points that separate them wide apart, things such as: katoeys are taller than thai women, in general thai women as most asian chicks are not too tall, the adams apple is a dead give away in katoeys (look exactly like men's), bone structure and some facial details are men's difficult to block, body muscles are another way to figure them out as not as feminine as women, voice is another and no matter how sweet they might sound, there is some tone voice that doesn't sound right, etc...
these and other details should be a right away alarm to make these freaks out. personally i don't care what they do with their lives as long as it doesn't intrude into mine; live and let live you might put it that way.
I do hope this problem goes away with time and just be safe next time.

MarcoPolo

As I once said to a good friend in Rio who picked up a post-op at Balkony by mistake, "he was better looking than most of the women".

If you have to resort to an amateur gynecological exam to determine if you brought home a genetic female or a genetic male, I would say it's a bit late at that point. As long as you avoid bareback anal, you should be physically fine.

I imagine post-ops can be tricky to detect, especially if you've had a few beers and the lighting isn't to great, which it usually isn't. We've all had 8s turn into 5s with the flick of the light switch. If that happens just turn the lights back down. I guess in Thailand, just make sure yours is the only cock in the room.
.

Catocony;
I couldn't put in a better way!! well said my fellow monger.

MarcoPolo

PS- To lighting up spirits; reminds me that movie with jim carey where he finds out he did it with a man and went into the shower to clean himself up, took mouthwash, used a toilet plunger and finally burn his clothes!!!! thought it was very hillarious!!!!

Yeah, but all Ace Ventura did was kiss.

I remember SF Hombre took a tranny home one night by mistake. A famously passable one. Luckily, he saw her taking a wiz - standing up. Thus started the tail of the "the rented Hoover with an attachment package I did not request".

Another guy actually took home a somewhat famous Rio tranny. He was taking picks and she was hesitant to take her panties off. When she did, he freaked a bit, and sent her on her way. I think he did a dupla the next afternoon just to get over the near miss.

One of my favorite Gilbert Gottfried jokes was at the Joan Rivers Roast. "I've had sex with many Joan Rivers impersonators over the years. Most were complete gentlemen"

If I've ever been fooled, I'm still fooled today. For anyone in that position, I wouldn't worry about it at all. If you inadvertantly take home an extremely passable post-op, no harm no foul. You're not suddenly gay.

Of course, if you inadvertantly take home one with a dick, and discover said dick before the festivities start, and say to hell with it and get a hummer, you might be a little gay. If you let the tranny fuck you in the ass, you might be a lot gay.

Funny thread. I've never been fooled myself however I remember once I picked up a fairly tall Garota in Rio.

Hmm I wonder.

Transvestites are here to stay on this world. when i was growing up and the world was more conservative, it was unheard of to see these things so much in the open now.
Now in thailand and you would find them in all the major nite complexes here; be it soi cowboy, nana, patpong and along sukhumvit rd. and nana soi 4. in pattaya they are on walking street, soi 6, LK metro and beach road. also, on soi pattayaland. i tend to stay clear of them and like Mr. catocony put it: if you go ahead after finding the fact, well, then you just change teams (sort of speak).

MarcoPolo

Beer goggles will always do you in. Not a tranny issue but a buddy of mine would have questionable pickups (in the looks department) here in the states. His classic line was I went to bed with Christie Brinkley and woke up with David Brinkley.

In my Pattaya TR I noted an encounter with a person who I still can't nor care to make a determination as to his/her gender. I asked the person directly if she/he was Katoy and received a negative response. IF the person was truly female she was to me, if not the most beautiful woman on the planet, easily in the top five, absolutely STUNNING. Still there was an aire about this person who had no physical male attributes, which made me question her truthfulness and I passed. Even though I'll never know it was the appropriate decision for me.

GG, I don't know you, I'm not a psychiatrist, I admire your honesty and do not care to diminish you in any way. From what you've shared I sense you may have what you refer to "Third Sex" inclinations which you may wish to explore further.

I will disagree with you in that regardless of how you measure your own "looks" it would influence whether or not you can find a "nice" girl. For me, I've had a great relationship with a "nice" girl from the Philippines but we met online, not in a bar. The vast majority of the girl's you meet in a bar/club in Manila/Angeles and especially Pattaya/Bangkok aren't all about looks, they're all about $$$.

Pay for play objectives are as different as each individual who engages in the "sport". I feel a person looking for an emotional connection can find that fairly easily with a bar girl. If you're feeling lonely and looking for something much deeper, someone you would trust to oversee the appropriate disposal of your dead body, that's a self deception.

Happy Hunting!

Paying for sex can work out pretty well if your goals are fun and games. Paying for love, that rarely works out very well.

Paying for sex has led to love and marriage -- for many others.

It has happened to a lot of guys who visited foreign destinations.

However, many ended in divorce, mainly because the wife only wanted to get to USA and acquire a green card.

Most of the expats I met at the Saturday early-afternoon get-togethers have a live-in Thai girl friend or wife.

How many of these pair relationships last? I do not know.

Thus, being a romance traveler reflect more of my optimistic nature. Reality says, the chance of romance is small and lasting romance is rare to non-existent.

Aussie males are more pragmatic. They marry Filipinas to acquire a cook/housekeeper/bed mate.

Several marriages I know about involving Americans who brought Brazilians to the US were destroyed by the husband, not the wife. He could not stop mongering, he didn't realize the level of dependency she would have on him and other than sex there was nothing there. Sure some are in it for the green card but many do want the marriage to work.

If a boy takes hormones prior to the onset of puberty, he does not develop secondary sexual characteristics. There are plenty of post-ops who don't have Adam's apples, broad shoulders, or low voices.

Interesting discussion.

Sexual orientation and sexual attraction are far more complicated than gay, straight or bisexual. For example, there are men who are attracted to ladyboys (or whatever term you care to use) who will tell you they have zero attraction to men. Are they gay? At some point, such terms become pretty meaningless.

I'm with Greengasser. What does it matter to me who another person is attracted to? It doesn't matter, and I feel no need to throw labels at other guys. Live and let live indeed. As a 14-year-old daughter of a friend of mine put it, "Pleasure is pleasure, what does it matter who it's with?" I'll worry about where I'm sticking my dick, and no one else need really worry about that. And I won't waste a minute worrying about whether another monger is making choices different than my own.

On the marriage issue, I tried to do a rough accounting of all the monger-puta marriages I know of (quite a few, actually), and I'd say that through about 8-10 years, the failure rate is about 50%, which puts it roughly on a par with all marriages. Perhaps the point is that all women are putas, or that marriage is a flawed institution for many, or that mongers make terrible husbands. Who knows?

(Message edited by Bwana_dik on June 16, 2015)

I know I could never be faithful to one woman so I stayed single. Not looking for love just to have fun.
On the subject of Ladyboys, not really my thing but every year I see more of them here in Pattaya so apparently there is a market for them.
Personally I don't really care what another man's flavor is.
Just trying to have my fun.

Late to this thread due to too much work...

I've had sex with two post-ops. One was here in Los Angeles many years ago. She was a bit strange in some ways, but rather sexy. What gave it away was the lack of lubrication in her vagina. It was also quite tight (which was great once we lubed). I didn't really figure it out until the second encounter, after which I kind of lost my appetite for her.

The second time was with a girl I picked up on Copacabana Beach. She had a killer bod, but this time I figured it out pretty quickly. That didn't stop me, and we actually had a reasonably good discussion (considering my limited Portuguese) afterward.

I've been tempted to see what the katoeys on Soi 6 have to offer, they are right out front and some are very sexy-the best bodies on the street. Is it true that they give great head? I actually almost barfined a very cute spinner there in January until she told me she wasn't a girl. There were no obvious signs, and I've only been fooled once in 10 years since Epi taught me to spot 'em. One day I might try it....

Interesting piece. I enjoyed reading it. Maybe learned a little. I have two experiences. The first was a late night in Nana. I saw this very attractive gal at the door just up the far stairs. I don't go to Nana often. I walked by her and was thinking that the door girls probably had that duty for some period of time. I went into several places and after looking at 4s and 5s in several places I was getting ready to bail. I saw the girl at the door again on my way to the stairs. She winked and I stopped to talk with her. She was stunning...probably an 8 or 9 in my book not considering the beer bonus. A mamasan came out and said would I like to buy her a drink. I thought, "Great" as I thought she was not available while working. We sat down and I ordered us drinks and we chatted and she was bright. I could not stop looking at her boobs. They were spectacular. She seemed to sense my interest and put my hand on one and laughed and said I could squeeze...a surprise because they looked enhanced. I was stoked. Finally we cut a deal for short time at my place. Just before we left we were talking and I joking said, "You are a girl, right?" and she changed her voice and I almost fell off the chair. It was like my whole reality was changed. It did not seem possible. She was waiting for my my reaction which went at light speed for shock to wonder to sad to wonder to what the heck. I went ahead with the deal and she was thrilled. We got to the room and she slipped on a nighty. I put on some music and we slow danced slow. She was cuddly. I told her that I was not gay but that I loved her personality and body and that I would treat her as a woman but when it came to sex I did not want her to undress and that she would do a blow job. She agreed but wanted me to know that she was fully functional. I said I would be more comfortable if we did it my way. She was ok and I totally put her back as a woman and played with her body and she hugged and nestled me and when the time came she gave about the worst blow job I ever had...really diappointing as I had heard that was something that would be mind altering. She got ready to leave and came over and told me she had a good time and thanked me and that was that. She had totally fooled me but by the time I found out I really did not want to hurt her feelings and I knew I would enjoy playing with the boobs.
The second incident was several years later again in Bangkok. I had been getting a foot massage from a young girl on Soi 7 1/2. I got a body massage as well. I was there for almost two weeks and got foot massages each day. About the fourth day she made it clear she liked me and that she could go out at night. I asked if she could stay overnight and she said, "yes". She had a ok body but I thought she was very sweet and I had good experiences with massage girls in the past. She came over for our night out in a really cute green dress and was made up and seemed so happy, it made me feel good. I suggested she come up to the room and I took a picture of her in her dress and she enjoyed getting a picture of herself. We hugged a bit and clothes started coming off. I thought we might as well work up an appetite before dinner. Her boobs looked a bit irregular and I kind of felt sorry for her but let her know it was ok with me. As things progressed she got up to go to the bathroom and came back and announced she did not want to take off her pants as she was shy. Well, that wasn't going to happen and so she quickly admitted that she was a ladyboy and looked at me with teary eyes waiting for my response. I could not believe it. Not again. And again because we had a really good connection I told her that I could only see her as a girl and she seemed very happy. She stripped down to panties with a very small bulge. We played and she did a very nice bbbj and she took nice care of me and cleaned up and we went out to a nice dinner. She spent the night and we played some more and ended with another bbbj. She left in the morning and I realized that I really liked her and felt so sorry for the rough life she must have. She would light up telling me about things she had done at home. She not only took care of herself but helped her family etc etc. Over the years I have taken her out a few times and she has truly loved going out and sometimes I see worried faces of some folks who realize I may not know she is a ladyboy. I really did not care. To me she is a cute little girls and we have great visits and good times together. I have never been interested in other than blow jobs. I have never felt my gender identity was compromised or felt insecure about sexuality. She never seemed to care about all the girls I was taking out. We just had a good time during foot massages, body massage, and usually one night where I would take her out.
I don't think I am easily fooled, but it happened to me twice and I still have good feelings about each of the female personalities I met. For some reason once I saw them as females, it was easy to continue to see them that way. Admittedly the two I met were really nice people and extremely femine and who very much appreciated that I continued to treat them as females.