The "Occupy" camps have me wondering...it seems like there is a push for a more socialist America...an America which is hostile to business and corporations, but favors the worker. The push is for greater government involvement and broader powers.

I look at this and my thoughts are..."uh oh"...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204479504576637082965745362.html

"Our research shows clearly that the movement doesn't represent unemployed America and is not ideologically diverse. Rather, it comprises an unrepresentative segment of the electorate that believes in radical redistribution of wealth, civil disobedience and, in some instances, violence. Half (52%) have participated in a political movement before, virtually all (98%) say they would support civil disobedience to achieve their goals, and nearly one-third (31%) would support violence to advance their agenda. "

"What binds a large majority of the protesters together—regardless of age, socioeconomic status or education—is a deep commitment to left-wing policies: opposition to free-market capitalism and support for radical redistribution of wealth, intense regulation of the private sector, and protectionist policies to keep American jobs from going overseas."

Portege,

I believe that the fundamental problem with America and many other parts of the world such as Japan and Europe are the banks. Probably in our life time, they will destroy the prosperity of hundreds of millions of people, and perhaps even a billion.

The only solution to this problem is that we need a government that can control and regulate the banks for the common good. Unfortunately, it has already been demonstrated that the American government is unable to do this and the banks remain unchecked. I believe fundamentally in capitalism as the most efficient mechanism to distribute capital. However the current banking system actually is anti-capitalism and concentrates the power of distribution of capital not to the free markets but in the hands of a few very wealthy bankers.

The countries that are able to regulate their banks successfully will be the most successful in the future. Currently, the United States has zero percent interest. This attractive interest rate benefits just a handful of people. It is also discourages savings which is critical for any normal economy.

I support Occupy Wall Street. They have not articulated their goals, but they are frustrated and their focus is on the right target.

I think you support what you believe Occupy Wall Street is about. The reality is they never had real goals. There was this Tweet sent out which caused the initial wave and then everyone piled on. Since that time Occupy Wall Street has protested at Sothebys as a result of some labor dispute involving art handlers and then there was the demonstration at the Board of Education New York.

If they are going to be against the banks, then they should be against the banks and with a clear vision as to how they want to improve the system. They shouldnt be demonstrating at the Board of Education or Sotheby's. That seems to dilute the purpose and take away from the vision.

Some of the things they are doing are a little cheesy and disturbing. Should they be letting in convicted felons into their groups? Should they be having rule by committtee which is strangely similar to the old style Soviet Union political? Should they be making it ugly for the residents and businesses around the park?

You have to understand...the banks are regulated. They are regulated by the states...they are regulated by the feds. The problem isnt the banks, but human nature. We have had huge bubbles of assets many times in the last 1000 or so years like Tulip Mania. There is no amount of regulation which can be created to control human nature. They did it with tulips, then they did it with train stocks, they did it with tech stocks, then real estate and now government. Its going to keep happening again and again and recessions will come ever 5-7 years like clockwork. You just have to know they will come and prepare accordingly.

If you were wiped out or know someone who was by this fiasco, then dont blame the banks. The only person to blame is the one in the mirror. You should have noticed how things seemed to be getting too hot in real estate and then reduced your exposure to it. I feel sorry for those who lost jobs, houses, etc, but you have to understand it was their fault. Shit happens and you just have to expect it...prepare for it...

(Message edited by Portege on October 26, 2011)

http://nymag.com/print/?/news/frank-rich/class-war-2011-10/index1.html

Some interesting history about "Occupy". Maybe some of you old-timers even remember '32 "Occupy".

A lot of the "protests" are going beyond protesting. In Atlanta there was a guy with an AK-47 assault rifle roaming around. A lot of the Occupy camps have become more or less homeless shelters with fights, drunkeness and sexual assaults. There are public health concerns such as disease and injury like hypothermia.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45042393/ns/us_news/

It seems like the people around the Occupy camps are inviting the police to come and assault them. There was a poll taken which stated that 1 in 3 Occupy protesters would resort to violence.

Portege,

Interest rates are pegged at 0% and the Fed is trying to get creative to force them even lower. Who benefits from all this monkey business? I do not, you do not, and the 99% of perhaps even more do not. The banks and Wall Street are the only ones.

Your Tulip Mania analogy falls way short. There were no credit default swaps on tulips, and they did not have an entire economy based on tulip prices. You did not see every tulip owner borrowing money to finance their lifestyle through the rising price of tulips.

If you think that America has proper regulation of its banks then you are living in a fantasy world. The reason that the gap between the wealthy is rising is also due to the banks and no regulation. The GDP growth under Bush was a fantasy because it was driven by the financial sector and CDS. I do not think that this type of betting should be included in GDP.

I have friends of mine visit Occupy Wall Street, and as soon as I get back to the US, I am going there too.

Stop labelling me. You don't know me, and worse yet, I'll start labelling you and I don't think that is a game you can win.

Ok I will give you the podium and you tell us what you would like to do. Nationalize the banks? Impose a 15% tax on top of the 40% tax on high income earners. If I might ask how will that get you back to work? How will that help the wconomy grow? I do label you as a man with many false premises and there are more like you around so I dont expect the economy to grow again in my lifetime. Go visit the Occupy Camp and sit with the drug dealers and other folks who just exited Rikers in the snow. That wont put you back to work.

"Ok I will give you the podium . . . "

What a guy! ROTFL

Anyone who knows BT is absolutely laughing at Portege's attempts to debate him.

In all honesty I have no clue what the Occupy Wall Street dudes are asking for. They look more like a bunch of bums begging for pocket change than any kind of social movement. They are pretty much off the radar to me since they haven't articulated anything, good or bad, as far as I can tell. I guess they are against Wall Street??????? My Wall Street has been very good to me in the last month since they have ramped up their aiti-Wall street protests so what ever the hell it is they are doing??????? it seems to be working.

It is interesting the market rallied just as the protests took off. Its as if the market is laughing at them. Probably as winter sets in and the protests taper off then the market will come back down. I know NYC winters and it will be a little hard camping out in freezing weather even with tents and warm clothing. Who knows...

Portege, are you really that stupid? That there's a global stock market movement upwards just because of protesters? If that's the case, then wouldn't it be a good idea for global investors to build permanent shelters for protesters to remain where they are?

No Catocony, you are the one who is stupid for not seeing the context of my post. I'm not going to be an LAguy and launch into a 10 page essay to explain it.

However, I am interested to know what would make the protesters go home. Any guesses? Whatever happens, I dont think the protesters will ever go home. Right now, it looks like their fight is with the police and the municipalities, but no longer "Wall Street" which is unfortunate.

Funny. I just looked at the stock chart of Goldman Sachs, the posterchild of Occupy Wall Street sin. Its been rallying ever since the protests started.

I'm not American but can you not remove the protesters as they could be terrorist.

>>I'm not going to be an LAguy and launch into a 10 page essay to explain it.<<

This is one of the primary things I have objected to about Portege from the get-go: he is an unmitigated liar.

Hey Portege, how about providing some links to these supposed 10-page essays on politics you claim I have written? And after you find you cannot, you might want to look at your own long-winded posts to see in striking detail what a hypocrite you also are.

Portege,

What in the hell makes you think that I am out of work? I am guessing that you are older than me, but I feel confident in saying that I have made more money in the last 6 months than you have made in your entire life. If you really want to get into a discussion of who has made more money, who has created more jobs, who has enjoyed more success, and so on. You will lose.

Nationalize the banks? 40% tax on the rich? Did I say any of that? Rather than defend your stupid ideas, here are some ideas that will fix the problem, not that you care.

1. Put back the line between retail banking and investment banking from Glass Steagall. This is one of the root causes of the too-bog-to-fail bailout.
2. Repeal McCarren Ferguson to stop the insurance agencies from jacking up rates while colluding. It is illegal in every other industry.
3. Demand transparency in the Fed.
4. Promote competition in all markets.

There are many things that can fix the current economic mess. These are just a few ideas. The problem is that Obama nor none of the Republican contenders discuss any of these topics. The reason is that they are all controlled by the banks.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jan/21/obama-bank-reform-glass-steagall

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2010/02/president-obama-backs-repealing-health-insurance-industry-antitrust-exemption/

I dont measure a persons success by how much money thry have made but how many lives they have changed and if we get into a discussion about that you will lose. All I have to say to you and your Occupy friend is to go home and get a job. Its time to get back to work doing constructive things and working like a team. Its not the banks that caused you to fail...its you and your attitude...your own damned fault. Im the richest man in the world for what I have. Im happy with what I have and if you want to spread your hate...blame some bankers then go ahead. Next thing you will blame the jews too. So dont come to me saying that you can win...you cant. All you have is some profane foolish words. Hehe the fact is all this was caused by some idiots who thought their house would never go down.

BT's demands sound entirely reasonable. Is that what the occupy WS dudes want??????????????? I could get behind that. I could probably bring along more than a few "Tea Party" folks to back up those positions.

The real problem remains that I haven't a clue what the rank and file "Occupy Wall Street" dudes are demanding. It mostly seems just an insignificant ruckus to me and I have dismissed it as such.

We should all strive to be like Portegay.

He should be our new leader, or at least on the ticket next year with Mitt Rhomney, or Barac. I am sure one of those guys would love him on the ticket.

Out in front and lead us to victory Portegay!

Actually, the Occupy protesters have no idea what they want and that is, in part, because they have no leadership. As a result of no leadership, their cause is diluted and twists&turns into new things each day. One day they are at the Board of Education in New York while another day they are at Sothebys. Wait a second, why are they at these places. Did the Board of Education in New York City cause the financial crisis? Was Sotheby's responsible for the housing crash? Whats happening at the Board of Ed and Sotheby's may be important to them, but its a distraction and a dilution.

At first, they enjoyed support by the local communities, but their welcome is wearing thin with the ex-convicts and homeless which are infiltrating their ranks at the camps. At first it was a protest, but now its a public nuisance becoming a hazard to local residents. Not only is it a hazard to local residents, but now children are being thrown into these camps which to me is child endangerment. Placing children in 45- or 50-degree temperatures without shelter from the wind&rain around ex-convicts and homeless without any explainable reason as to why is child endangerment to me.

My advice to the protesters is this. Go home, take a shower, look for work and come up with a better plan. Battleing the local police (who were not responsible for the financial crisis), putting children at risk, creating a nuisance for the communities and causing havoc is not doing anything for the cause.

When we marched in the 60s along with King, there was an obvious cause and even more obvious solutions....there was also obvious leadership. In this current "protest", there is no leadership...no obvious cause...no obvious solutions. In the great words of Herman Cain, how can you be insensitive to a group's demands if you don't know them?

(Message edited by Portege on October 29, 2011)

I was a small business owner for a time. No I wasnt the CEO of Haliburton, but I do consider small business owners as the heart&soul of America and even more important then any CEO of any large corporation.

The thing I have against Occupy Wall Street is their war on small business owners in the communities in which they set themselves up. I know how it is for Ellen in the following article:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/29/MN951LNTGB.DTL

The woman works hard for her business and it is now coming apart. These small businesses employ people, they empower communities and they are the heart of any city or town. How dare they impeed on that business? What gives them the right to do so?

I hope Hombre doesnt sensor this picture because it may contain material that is objectionable to some here.

I'm guessing the guy is one of those geniuses who blames Obama and the Democrats for wrecking the economy and making it impossible for many people to find a job while at the same time blaming those without jobs for being too lazy to find one.

Laguy - come on everyone here knows it's Bush's fault. Obama has no blame.

Can you buy me a round trip to Thailand if you got loads of money portege.

I missed a lot of Portege idiocy over the past few weeks. The dude is prolific!

My visit to OWS 2 weeks ago was very interesting. I talked with quite a few people while there. There is a great deal of anger over the structural economic inequities that have been created intentionally by policymakers serving their very wealthiest constituents (even BT doesn't fall into this category). Political inequality and economic inequality feed one another, and a lot of people of various political persuasions are finally figuring out they've been screwed and lied to.

Internationally.... "structural economic inequities" are the number one reason smoking hot 20 year old chicks work in bars selling their pussy to old guys for trivial sums of money.

Yeah IAS, but even you gotta admit nothing would be lost in hookerville if we made the U.S. a structural-economic-inequality-free zone.

I dont think anyone has been "screwed" or "lied" to. I dont think anyone has "intentionally" done anything. The real truth is the United States is a great place to live and the 100% of people live a life of luxury when compared to their third world counterparts.

Lets take the Philippines for example. Now that place is truly a rough spot to be poor and it is evident right when you land and see the backdrop of shanty towns. I dont need to explain more.

The other real truth is that no one owes you anything and it does take work to make life work. There is a great sense of entitlement and a total lack of personal responsibility in these protests. There is no leader to the protests because no one wants to take personal responsibility.

What are the answers? Confiscate the wealth and re-distribute it like Mao did in China so long ago?

The United States has been through worse and will get through this, but there will be more struggle before that happens. When I say the word "struggle", I have to laugh. "Struggleing" in the United States is not the same as a "struggle" in these third world countries. What we have here in the first world should be celebrated...we do have it very good and there are always options here. Rarely do you see the worst case scenario which is people living in the streets. Most of those Occupy protesters have jobs which is something to be celebrated.

Has anyone read Indignez-vous! by Stéphane Hessel yet?