I do knot buy the "socially liberal" crap. Germany bans abortion. Italy frowns on divorce. The French refuse to allow muslims kids the right to wear scarves in schools. These are not my idea of liberal things. As to Clinton-maggot and his blow jobs, that was never the issue, the fact that he committed perjury was. On the other hand, after Mitterand and Chirac, the French are probably so accustomed to corrupt politicians that Clinton appeared honest in comparison.
That article may appear in the LA Times. If they are too timid to run it, it will be shopped around elsewhere. Then you will all know my name...

Personally, I would love to see MinniMe get his ass kicked.The obnoxious little fucker deserves it.Secondly, what you forigners don't understand about the Clinton blow job is that we didnt give a rats ass about him getting a blowjob.Where he fucked up was when he decided to lie about it.He should have said fuck you its none of your business.Instead,he lied under oathe(is that accetable in your country)and then wagged his finger in our faces and lied agaain.

Judging by the behavior of surrender monkey and nazi (excuse me, frence and german) politicians, perjury and much worse IS acceptable in those countries. Silly Americans, what business do we have questioning the activities of our betters?

Pissed off in San Diego,

I was so optimistic about Lucky Jacksons and Jamesbr1961's predictions of the mass destruction of Iraq and the theory that big oil including Halliburton was going to be the benefactor of this war, that I went out and increased my position in the energy sector.

This backroom deal that big oil has made with Bush (why else would we be in Iraq) is in a word, backfiring. The price of oil is down almost 25% in the last week and very little infrastructure(power plants and oilwells) has been destroyed that will benefit HAL or its subsidiary construction company (Brown and Root).

I say fire Barney Frank and the rest of the commanders of the coalition and get some less competent leaders to run this war.

BenwhoisnowhighlyskepticalofLJacksonandJames

I understand the choice to indulge in impotent rhetoric rather than try to engage me on the issues. It must be frustrating for you not to be able to answer intelligently, and have to opt instead for schoolyard tactics. That's cool, it's an ego boost for me, AND I get a chuckle out of it. ;)

Powerslaver,

I'm not sure where you're getting info. Not only is abortion not banned in Germany, the very party that's againsts abortion (SDP), allows the sale of RU-486 with very little restriction, and the same 'conservative' party was recently made fun of for distributing packages of condoms with the saying "Feel good about yourself, SDP". Imagine the Republicans doing that.

As far as Italy goes, yes of course a Catholic country 'looks down' on divorce, but their rate of divorce is average. You don't know of any socities that look approvingly on divorce, do you?

I thought that on this of all boards, there would be general agreement that European attitudes toward sex, (and most other social issues), are far more liberal than those you find in the U.S.

Ben,

The Iraqi oil fields will need tens of billions of pesos to really get cranking, so plenty of opps for fat contracts and pumping rights.

Remember, no new equipment has gone in for almost 13 years and maintenence is very limited. The fact that it is not being destroyed (for the most part - a little has been and at least a little more will be) just means the existing facilities can continue to do a marginal job of pumping until the oilfield services companies can get to start rebuilding it.

Cat,

I know. I was just saying the above for the dramatic effect and to point out that much of the negative senario forcast by LJ has yet to come aboot.

I hope a year from now the Middle East will be a better place for the U.S., so I can be tell LJ and others "I told you so".

Benbelievesmightmakesright

Which 'negative scenario' did I forecast?

How bout you guys just "french kiss" and make up !!

Milk

I'd consider it the polite thing to do, ;) but it's been made clear that he won't oblige unless we call it a 'freedom' kiss.

I think he might be referring to my speculation that the U.S. could make things worse for itself by giving A.Q. the war it wants.

Of course, that depends on what the U.S. does after it's finished mopping up Hussein's government. By that I mean that the U.S. has to do more than just swat the terrorist mosquitoes. It's got to drain the swamp as well. The best way to do that would be to follow up the war with steps that ensure Iraqis get proper medical support, food, shelter etc.,...and a hand in creating a better government. Though it's sure to rankle with some of you, this would probably be best achieved through the U.N.

I've said from the beginning that I supported a U.S. invasion, chiefly because Iraqis would be better off afterwards, so I'm kind of mystified by the talk of 'negative scenario'.

Speaking of French boycotts, I'm completely against it. I refuse to refuse blowjobs just because hummers are called French.

Ben writes "This backroom deal that big oil has made with Bush (why else would we be in Iraq) is in a word, backfiring."


What better proof exists that this war is all about oil than the fact that the barrel price has dropped so much? According to an article at Fortune Com "Each $10 increase in the price of a barrel of oil is like a $100 billion tax hike, slowing U.S. economic growth by more than half a percent over the course of a year."

Reytj

Reytj--What better reason than that to have a war?

luckyj:

"Today, citizens of the EC have freedoms and levels of wealth quite comparable to America's. Generally they have less disposable income, but better social services. I don't think that point is arguable.

No, the reason most Europeans, (and Canadians for that matter), resent America, is because America is like an individual who walks into a room, starts blowing his own horn - and doesn't stop. Even if another country wanted to recognize America's greatness, they wouldn't be able to get a word in edgewise because America never stops proclaiming it's own greatness. That's the first reason."
=================================================

it may be true that europe is thriving as you say. however, it seems that they are oblivious to the fact that they have enjoyed the benefits of american military & economic protection without having to pay the costs, or accept the responsibilities. in short, they're living in a fool's paradise. for example, we waited a long time, and begged for, any eu action in the balkans. never happened. afraid canada kinda lives there too. the ex-eastern bloc nations seem more in touch with reality. now i don't expect gratitude, just a little less petulant whining.

as for blowing our own horn, i'm not sure i know what you mean. the people & government of the us are not responsible because there are too many mcdonald's commercials on french tv. please clarify.

Reytj,

Saying this war is about oil is like saying that when you go on vacation it's all 'about' the purchasing of an airline ticket. It's undeniable that oil is a consideration, but the drop in price is a fringe benefit that comes with the invasion. The price was high because of the speculation that Hussein might sabotage Iraq's valuable stores of oil. As soon as the oil fields passed into safe hands, speculation stopped and the price corrected itself. People who say this is all about oil miss the point entirely. Why should the U.S. wage a 300 billion war to get a product that will come to them in any event?

Deve 80,

I never said that Europe did not benefit from American military protection, and clearly Canada should be at the head of the list of countries that have shamefully shirked their own defence costs because they know America could and would step in to defend them if the need arose. But respectfully, how does that relate back to the point raised by Powerslaver that I was answering? Powerslaver gave a list of reasons that he feels explain European resentment of America. I was countering his argument.

As for Americans blowing their own horns...well, I'm sure you've heard the phrase "ugly American". That's the phenomenon I'm referring to. Some, not all, Americans seem to feel that it's unpatriotic if they are NOT constantly bragging about American superiority and know how etc. I'm not saying that such talk is always inaccurate, I'm simply pointing out that it's rude. If a visitor came to your house and said, "Hey, nice car, but mine's way better. Geez, your wife's got nice tits, but my wife is a double D cup", you would probably get tired of it pretty fast. ;)

Your example of McDonald's is also right on the money. I in no way blame McDonalds for being successful, (not that it IS so successful these days), but even though people abroad like McDonalds, they resent it at the same time. In Thailand once I saw an American complaining because hot sauce came out of a dispenser when he thought he was going to get ketchup. The Thai McDonalds employee politely told him that in Thailand it was different. In Paris I had a steak and french fries at a cafe right beside a McDonalds. The owner told me he hated McDonalds, not only because they took business away from him, but because McDonalds was accustomizing a whole generation of French people to bad food.

I'm not saying one side is wrong and the other is right. I'm just saying that those reasons have a lot more to do with foreign resentment of America as opposed to any of the reasons given by Powerslaver.

(Message edited by luckyjackson on March 23, 2003)

"Today, citizens of the EC have freedoms and levels of wealth quite comparable to America's. Generally they have less disposable income, but better social services"

Ljackson, that is bullshit. In almost every continental European country, citizens are legally required to carry national id cards, and must show them to pigs on demand. In many countries, they must register their adresses with the police. Minorities are treated horribly, far worse than in the US of A, with the treatment of Algerians by the surrender monkey (oops, french) police being perhaps the worst, but not the only, example.
If social services were so good, the European tourists I have seen here would have better looking teeth, and American hospitals would not be full of Europeans (and canadians, some howpitals in Detroit survive on you people) seeking medical treatment quite unavailable at home.
Europe is the past. The future belongs to America and the English speaking countries.
Oh, it is EU, not EC. The name changed about a decade ago.

lucky:

it's always problematic jumping into the middle of a discussion, so i'll try again. sticking to europe, they resent america because they are living in a fool's paradise. the lotus land, we've outgrown war so why can't you attitude of europe is based on generations of peace and stability bought and paid for by america. with blood as well as dollars. they accept, and enjoy on a daily basis, the free ride provided by america's protection, and willingness to assume global responsibilities. they then vilify the us for throwing it's weight around. all those wonderful social programs get a lot less generous if you have to foot the bill for your own defense. as long as the target is the world trade center, and not the eiffel tower, people whose countries exist only because the us handed it back to them will gleefully maintain the distinction between themselves and those ugly americans. i suspect a large part of the reason is much the same as in the arab world. their governments are unwilling to deal with their own problems and shortcomings. it's easier to whip up a little resentment towards an external bogeyman, and that's the us. the "arab street" is by and large an uneducated one - not that difficult to lead around by the nose. western europe is supposed to be a little more sophisticated. bottom line, they resent us because they're hypocrites.

i'm afraid i'm still very unclear about the blowing our own horn thing. are you saying that large portions of the world's population are so resentful of the us that they will loudly, sometimes violently, try to force their governments to support a brutal tyrant like hussein because of a few, or even a whole bunch of, boorish tourists. sounds to me more like a case of thin skin than ugly. btw - american tourists haven't cornered the market on boorishness. let me tell you about some germans i ran into once. well, maybe later.

Powerslaver,

Which countries require citizens to carry national i.d. cards and register with police? I'm curious about that, since I know the UK, France, Italy, Portugal, Austria and Spain do not.

I'm most familiar with social services in Portugal because my background is Portuguese and I visit often. Even there, one of the poorest EC countries, basic health care is free for all, university is free, 6 weeks vacation is mandatory, and they get two extra month's pay - by law - at Christmas, and when they take their vacation. My wife's family is Austrian, and their social welfare system provides much much more.

You are right that many Canadians travel to Detroit for health care. But did you know that in 90% of those cases our government covers that cost? MRI scans are the chief reason for those visits and it's been a scandal up here for a while that the government chooses to spend far more on sending people down there than it would to just properly equip our own hospitals. Only procedures judged to be 'elective' are paid for by the individual.

I'm curious about how you've formed the impressions you have about europe. Do you travel much through Europe, or are you like those U.S. senators who proudly proclaim they do not have a passport and have no intention of ever traveling outside of the U.S.?

I must say I'm very surprised by this challenge to a statement that seems to be common knowledge around the world. You are the first person I've encountered who challenges the belief that European countries tend to spend more on their social services which they pay for through generally higher taxes.

Deve80,

Fool's paradise? Lotus land? Generation's of peace and stability? I have no idea what you are talking about.

Europe has had generation's of peace? Please check your history books. I will grant that since the end of WW2, the U.S. has provided military service for Europe that has saved the European nations from spending money on their own defence. Granted.

As I said, this is a peripheral point to the issue brought up in Powerslaver's article, which is what I was responding to.

LJ

Obviously you are right that Europe in general and western Europe in particular offer a much higher degree of social services than the U.S.

What I disagree with is that these services are mainly provided for by higher taxes. I don't consider this a minor point. If countries such as the ones you referred to above had to or maybe decided to create a significant armed forces, these incredible benefits and I might add low productivity and high unemployment would not be sustainable. The U.S. by being the policemen of the world have in large part helped the quality of life of Europe and also other countries such as your own.

I do feel that the resentment toward the U.S. is basically jealously, but is usually manifested in some other form. No one wants to admit to being envious.

Reyti,

And please explain how this drop in the price of oil is benefiting the large oil companies?

No doubt cheap oil benefits our country and for that matter every country that consumes more oil than it produces. Even our allies such as France and Germany benefit from the drop in the price of oil. I am holding my breathe (turning blue) waiting for these countries for a thank you.

Some on this board have suggested that big oil has conspired with Bush and Chaney to take over Iraq so big oil will get rich(or is that richer?).High does big oil benefit fron a 25% drop in the price of oil.

The big oil conspiracy is just not logical.

France and Germany require that residents register adresses with the police. France also requires all foreigners checking into a hotel to provide ID, which is transmitted to the DSGE (i think that is the initials) in Paris. National ID cards are mandatory in France, Belgium, and I believe Spain. In Germany they must be possessed, but I am not sure about carried.
When I refer to Europe, I am not referring to the UK, which is an island of sanity seperate from Europe.
Since you are an expert on Europe, you might want to enlighten us unemployment rates across the continent. Just possibly, the wonderful services like 6 weeks vacation and 2 months pay MIGHT have something to do with this? And NOTHING is free, not vacation, not even health care. Doctors get paid, and someone pays them.
I have been to Europe once, when I was much younger, but have travelled extensively throught Mexico, central and south america. I am very familiar with other countries in the world, especially the poorer ones. And I have seen how idiocies like mandatory vacation time, "free" bonuses, etc destroy jobs in poorer countries.

BTW, regardless of who pays for it, if people from wealthy countries have to come to the US for treatment, that says something not good about their welfare systems.

The drop in oil prices is due to the US requiring that oil be pumped at maximum levels to ensure oil supply for the invasion on Iraq, the same happened during the Gulf War. Although Bush and company support the oil companies, the oil market is bigger than any one faction, that´s precisely why Bush and company want control of Iraqi oil, to gain more control of the oil market (and why Saddam invaded Kuwait).

The Iraqi resistence is more than expected, but still futile. The only notable disappointment is the performance of the Apache helicopters. If they can´t function in Iraq, where the terrain is perfect, and where we have air supremacy, I think we need to re-examine the purpose of heavy attack choppers (and why we are junking the A-10s).

The drop in oil is almost pure psychological and has little to do with the current production of oil, It appears at this time we are going to be able to take control of Iraqi oil fields without to much future disruption in production.

I watched the Oscar awards last night. I never watch this show, but was curious as to how many protesters would speak out against the war.

I thought I was at a Republican fundraiser when Michael Moore accepted his Oscar and made the speech saying Bush should be ashamed of himself.

I watched the Oscar awards last night. I never watch this show, but was curious as to how many protesters would speak out against the war.

I thought I was at a Republican fundraiser when Michael Moore accepted his Oscar and made the speech saying Bush should be ashamed of himself. A few cheers for him, but overwhelmingly he was booed. He wimped off stage which made me laugh my ass off.

(Message edited by ben on March 24, 2003)

I've never been to Europe, but as a frequent traveler (8 countries including Mexico) with many international friends abroad and locally (ex-Prez of International Biz Organization), I would say LJ is accurate in general perceptions of Americans outside of the US.

Simply put, Americans are considered self-centered to an extreme. Europeans are more frequently exposed to foreigners as they are being raised and many are multi-lingual. Logistically this makes sense of course as travel between countries is faster and easier through Europe, but it goes beyond that. American tourists have a tendency to expect that everything is done the American way, and often get annoyed or lose their temper when it isn't.

Sexually, Americans are perceived as the most reserved and uptight. I don't think many people here would argue about how this is manifested in American women.

Of course, I'm referring to run-of-the-mill tourists, not us. Frequent travelers tend to be more open and prepared for differing cultures. People on this site have strong motivations for learning other languages and blending in to foreign cultures.

On the health care issue, foreigners coming to the US for specialist treatment is one thing, but the fact that so many Americans cannot get basic health coverage is significant.

As far as the consequences of this war (oil, terrorism, world opinion) it's still way too early to say what's going to happen. Who is going to control the oil doesn't seem to be much of a question. I'm not looking forward to the next generation of 9-11 wannabees, probably the majority not even coming from Iraq, and world opinion (which I personally believe is very important) is not looking too good for us.

Anyways, I just hope that this is a quick war and we can go in and rebuild a better Iraq. I don't think there would be so much chest pounding if we started seeing more people die within our borders.

(Message edited by dartagnan on March 24, 2003)

Ben,

I didn't think he "wimped off stage", but I also didn't agree with what he had to say. I think the anti-gun message of BFC makes sense, until you try to apply it to international relations, then I just don't follow the guy.

As far as consequences of the war, it is still too early to say, but I think the following will be among the most important determinants,

length of the conflict
whether WMD's are found
post battle efforts to rebuild

A poll in Canada showed 60% against the war and 40% for it. Undecided votes were so few they didn't register. Brian Mulroney, (past Prime Minister), chimed in to say Chretien had made a HUGE mistake in making Canada turn it's back on its oldest most important friend. Most important of all, Don Cherry, (Hockey Night in Canada Coach's Corner), came out on Saturday night and announced how ashamed he was of Canada's stance on the war, and of the idiots that boo'd the American anthem in Montreal. He said "If your buddy gets in a bar fight, you help him! You don't let him get hurt while you find out whether he's right or not!" Good ol Don, if he doesn't swing public opinion, NO ONE will! ;)

There's been talk against Canada here, and I feel obliged to post the following piece, which has been recently dusted off and is making the rounds again up here. I believe it represents the majority view in Canada. It was composed by one of our most popular broadcasters (Gordon Sinclair)in 1973, so some of the references are a bit dated.

"America, The Good Neighbour"

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts.
None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?

If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

_________________________________________________

I'm jumping in way late, but there are two major impacts of this war on me personally.

1. My business has fallen off sharply. I have a web business and revenue is off 10% week on week and traffic is off 20%. All this TV coverage is killing our national productivity. Much more than prior wars. Some quick math. 280M people in the US, and 250,000 American in Iraq. That is less than 1/10 of 1%, but the economic impacts are so much larger.

2. The dollar is falling like a rock. 3.3 reales to the dollar today. .937 euros. The real used to be close to 3.8 on prior trips. As someone that travels internationally for leisure frequently, this war is impacting my hobbying!!!

I'm getting squeezed on both ends on this one.

BT

(Message edited by bluestraveller on March 24, 2003)

LJ,

Thanks for the post.

I had read that article somewhere a few years ago (I think) and what a nice thing for a foreigner to say about my country. It is almost uncomfortable to read such a compliment to the U.S., even if it is just one Canadians opinion from many years ago.

Fuckin war won't be over so quick. If we lose an F117 and the Iraqis sell the parts to Russia and China that would really piss me off. Who wants them to be building stealth planes? Too bad these damn technologies can't be patented;-).

I would guess by now that both China and Russia have the tecnology. Russia probably can't afford to build them and China will probably have them within a few years.

Just my gut feeling and I have no facts or proof.

Remember, we lost an Apache the other day, and who knows how many boxes were removed before we got around to bombing it.

Anyone have any comments on the Russian's selling those "Kornet" antitank missiles as well as other equipment such as jamming equipment?

...granted they probably did it through middlemen in Ukraine, but just the same they sold out their so called allies. Thanks Mr. Putin

I suspect that we're going to find all sorts of munitions sold by companies from many countries in Iraq, including some from our allies.

Ben:

You don't get it. HAL isn't particularly interested in the reconstruction of Iraqi oil wells, its the control of the flow of oil from Iraq that's the big payoff.

So, for HAL, bad news from Iraq is bad news, indeed.

What's interesting about all this anti-Europe chatter is that those same people are also pissed at:

China
Mexico
Chile
Russia
various other parts of Latin America
Various parts of Africa
most of the Arab World

in other words, except for the short list of countries that are publicly supporting the US side, most of you guys are basically anti-everyone.

Exploder,

You don't get it.

The worse off the oilfields and oil wells the better for both Hal and subsidiary Brown and Root. If we had 500 oil wells on fire in Iraq and if Saddam would blow up all his refineries and pipelines it would be wonderful for HAL.

Also the higher the oil prices the more exploration is done by the big oil companies world wide. Hal is a service company and oilfield construction company among other things. They are not a producer or refiner of oil.

Ben:

As much as you deny that HAL won't be a beneficiary of the war, reality comes along to give your idealism a jolt, and your wallet a boost:


http://money.cnn.com/2003/03/25/news/companies/war_contracts/index.htm

That's a half billion for HAL for this week, who knows what they will get next week?

Explosion

If I am not misteaken Ben has said all along that Hal the kiddies Pal would benefit if Iraq torches the oil fields

Maybe i am wrong ??
Milktuff

I have never denied HAL will not benefit. I hate to say this, but your reading retention is very poor.

What I said was HAL will not benefit from low priced oil.

The recent post you made about HAL just shows how little you know about the oil patch.

Explorer,

Read this slowly while you are sober.

Lots of oil fires means higher oil prices and also lots of work for HAL both in Iraq and world wide

Ben, I think that what Explorer is trying to say is that HAL will benefit by the destruction of oil wells in Iraq, despite the fact that you insist HAL will not benefit from low priced oil. ;^)

He also made some pretty good points about how all the Iraqi street girls have novios and padrotes.

Ken, with all the warm and fuzzies you must be feeling right now, wouldn't a gratuitously detailed sex report be expected?

Ben:

I must be communicating here using words that I don't understand.

I agree that HAL is better off with high oil prices (nothing like a little war to ramp up oil prices), AND with oil well construction contracts BUT the key is control of the flow of oil, that has great strategic benefits beyond near term oil and share price.

The bottom line is that HAL is reaping huge rewards from their decision to hire a poorly qualified CEO back in the day.

I was against this war for a variety of reasons. Now that we are in it I still have my reservations but am willing to support the US side. Better us than them if you know what I mean. Since I strongly believe that oil, and who controls it, is a major issue in this war I had to laugh when I read the following news article. And after you get done trashing the French remember that they are responding to an announcement made today as to who the first US companies will be to get contracts to rebuild Iraq.

France Seeks Big Role in Post-War Iraq

By KIM HOUSEGO, Associated Press Writer

PARIS - Worried it could be shut out of business deals in postwar Iraq (news - web sites), France is drawing up plans to win French companies access to lucrative oil and reconstruction contracts, officials said Tuesday. The government is determined that French companies will be part of rebuilding Iraq, despite President Jacques Chirac's vigorous opposition to the war, a Finance Ministry official said. Gilles Munier, an executive board member of the French-Iraq Association for Economic Cooperation, said business leaders and government representatives were studying how to gain a foothold in postwar Iraq. He said a meeting between France's most powerful business federation, government leaders and the French-Iraq Association for Economic Cooperation was scheduled for April 3. The Finance Ministry official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, confirmed discussions were underway with business leaders about Iraq.

Some French are concerned that a U.S.-led administration in Iraq will favor companies from the United States and other pro-war countries while penalizing companies from France and other war opponents. The Bush administration awarded a $4.8 million contract Monday to a Seattle-based company to rebuild Iraq's only deep-water port. Washington is expected to announce similar deals soon. Officials in Paris say French firms' experience in working in Iraq would be an advantage.
French companies — many with ties to Baghdad stretching back decades — have established themselves as the largest suppliers of goods to Iraq since a U.N. trade embargo was partially lifted in 1996.

In 2001, France exported $705 million worth of goods to Iraq within the framework of the United Nations (news - web sites)' now-frozen oil-for-food program. Communications equipment maker Alcatel clinched a $75 million contract to upgrade Baghdad's phone network, and Renault sold $75 million worth of tractors and farming vehicles to Iraq. French oil giant TotalFinaElf probably has the biggest stake. It spent six years in the 1990s doing preparatory work on two giant oil fields and has signed two tentative agreements with Saddam to develop them.

Munier said he believes American companies will have difficulties in Iraq because of widespread anger against the U.S.-led bombing campaign. "I don't see how American executives can work when their lives will be at risk," he said. "There will be such hatred toward Americans." Munier criticized French companies for negotiating with American companies for a piece of their businesses in Iraq, saying that such "collaboration" would damage the image of French business among Iraqis.

Differences over how to run Iraq after the war have put added strain on already tense relations between the United States and several European countries. France opposes any U.S. reconstruction plan that would sideline United Nations development agencies, multilateral organizations and non-governmental aid groups. Chirac has warned that France would vote against any U.N. Security Council resolution that would give "the American and British belligerents the right to administer Iraq."

Well I am back from the snowy wilds (Utah and Colorado not Canada). Had a real nice 4-day weekend. I hardly saw the TV and did not think too much about all the shitty stuff going down. But I see I missed lots of great posts and a couple of good flames.

Tight Fit,

I am with you man. Fuck the french. They should not get any spoils of war.

Porker,

We might not agree on everything, but I certainly agree that this thread has been entertaining. We also agree that nothing is better than sweet Mexican panocha. Hay varias razones porque elegimos vivir en Mexico. No?

Ben,

About 50 posts ago, I mentioned to Jamesbr that my father spent 33 years working for “big oil”(you know my background). He says he would not buy oil stocks right now. At least not for short term speculation. As I posted before, he believes that oil will fall to 5-10 year lows adjusted for inflation. The result? The American economy will win, but big oil in particular will not. The loony left has one thing right. The war is in a small part about oil. But it is about maintaining stable oil markets, not colonizing the oil fields

ActionMichaeljackson,

Take off Hoser. You canucks are indeed funny. It is my turn to ask if you really believe everything you say? I want to take issue with one of your statements. You accuse the States of blowing their own horn a little to loudly. If any one country could be accused of blowing their own horn it is France. Very few countries feel as self important as France does. They are a “has been” country but they think they are still the center of the universe. They are wrong. The US is the center of the universe. LOL. Seriously, I think that most of the world fails to understand us, and we don’t really understand the world. I will respond to some of your comments about why we are so damn brash and why the world hates us in a new thread called “ Why the world hates America”. Keep an eye out for it. I am not sure when I will have more time to post but it will be coming.

Jamesbr,

I meant to respond to one of your posts above and did not get around to it. You ask if it is now Ok for any country in the world to “unilaterally” attack their enemy or perceived enemy. My answer is not necessarily. You are comparing apples to oranges. You mention Pakistan-India, China-Taiwan, N. Korea-S Korea, and a couple of others. My response is that if one of those countries has refused to comply with 16 or so resolutions from the UN security council, and the second country can make a reasonable argument that the first country is a security threat and has some basis in international law to act, then I guess so. The fact is that very few countries are in the same situation as Iraq –US. Under international law the US as primary combatant in the Gulf War can enforce the cease-fire agreement that was brokered in 1991 but never respected by Hussein. Don’t compare apples to Oranges.

batster

Tight Fit:

You beat me to the post, the French always have an angle. In this case, they may assist in the final surrender of the Iraqis in exchange for some role in post-war Iraq.