My comment regarding the enthusiastic horn blowing done by Yanks, was in direct response to Powerslaver's attempt to explain why Europeans 'hate' Americans. You shouldn't take the comment out of context. Every country has some collective foible that others find irritating. With Canadians it's our navel gazing and endless second guessing about our 'position' in the world. Yes American's are brash, but the flip side of that coin is a positive 'can do' attitude.

Just finished listening to the news, and it seems the American military is a victim of its own success. I can't believe the reports regarding the "slower than expected" conquering of Iraq. For chrissake, it's a nation of 23 million people, and the invading army is doing its damndest to hold casualties to a minimum, and avoid destruction of the infrastructure. How much faster do people want this to happen?

LJ,

I agree with you regarding the "how much faster do people want this to happen?

I mean 5-6 days and we are 50 miles from Bagdad and have pretty much taken over everything we have gone after.

Now don't get teary eyed just because we final agree on something.

I say boycott all blueberries exported from Canada.

Now that the US is about to take Bagdad, I'll bet that a lot of the guys who opposed the war last week will now tell us that they really supported the war.

Including me.


Kidding. The war sucks.

Yeah Explorer,

You and the fuckin French

I love how the media always refers to the "elite" Republican Guard. Makes them sound like SEALS or SAS Commandos or something. I guess they're elite because they use toilet paper instead of wiping their asses with their hands and they have slightly better military equipment and training. I'm sure the ROTC crew from any college could take them on easily in a fight but that's just my opinion.

I heard that the only difference between the Republic Guard and the Republic Army is that the Republic National Guard wares shoes.

yeah well, the VC didn't wear any shoes either, who won that war??

asymmetric war

who knows what's going to happen?

I have to admit, my biggest concern is how all this affects my portfolio

and I don't like what I'm seeing/hearing

but that may all change any minute

pubic hairs on coke cans, cum spots on blue dresses, the good ole days

The VC LMAO .

Bush Presents Evidence:


The following advisory for American travelers heading for France was compiled from information provided by the U.S. State Department, the Central Intelligence Agency, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the Food and Drug Administration, the Center for Disease Control and some very expensive spy satellites that the French don't know about. It is intended as a guide for American travelers only and no guarantee of accuracy is ensured or intended.

General Overview
**************** France is a medium-sized foreign country situated on the continent of Europe, and is for all intensive purposes fucking useless. It is an important member of the world community, although not nearly as important as it thinks. It is bounded by Germany, Spain, Switzerland and some smaller nations of no particular consequence or shopping opportunities. France is a very old country with many treasures such as the Louvre and EuroDisney. Among its contributions to Western civilization are champagne, Camembert cheese, the guillotine, and body odor. Although France likes to think of itself as a modern nation, air conditioning is little used and it is next to impossible to get decent Mexican food. One continuing exasperation for American visitors is that the people willfully persist in speaking French, although many will speak English if shouted at repeatedly.

The People
********** France has a population of 54 million people, most of whom drink and smoke a great deal, drive like lunatics, are dangerously over sexed and have no concept of standing patiently in line. The French people are generally gloomy, temperamental, proud, arrogant, aloof and undisciplined; those are their good points. Most French citizens are Roman Catholic, although you'd hardly guess it from their behavior. Many people are Communists and topless sunbathing is common. Men sometimes have girls' names like Marie and they kiss each other when they hand out medals. American travelers are advised to travel in groups and to wear baseball caps and colorful pants for easier mutual recognition. All French women have small tits, and don't shave their armpits or their legs.

Safety
****** In general, France is a safe destination, although travelers are advised that France is occasionally invaded by Germany. By tradition, the French surrender more or less at once and, apart from a temporary shortage of Scotch whisky and increased difficulty in getting baseball scores and stock market prices, life for the visitors generally goes on much as before. A tunnel connecting France to Britain beneath the English Channel has been opened in recent years to make it easier for the French government to flee to London.

History
******* France was discovered by Charlemagne in the Dark Ages. Other important historical figures are Louis XIV, the Huguenots, Joan of Arc, Jacques Cousteau and Charles de Gaulle, who was President for many years and is now an airport. The French armies of the past have had their asses kicked by just about every other country in the world.

Government
********** The French form of government is democratic but noisy. Elections are held more or less continuously and always result in a run-off. For administrative purposes, the country is divided into regions, departments, districts, municipalities, cantons, communes, villages, cafes, booths and floor tiles. Parliament consists of two chambers, the Upper and Lower (although, confusingly, they are both on the ground floor), whose members are either Gaullists or communists, neither of whom can be trusted. Parliament's principal pre occupations are setting off atomic bombs in the South Pacific and acting indignant when anyone complains. According to the most current State Department intelligence, the current President is someone named Jacques. Further information is not available at this time.

Culture
******* The French pride themselves on their culture, although it is not easy to see why. All of their songs sound the same and they have hardly ever made a movie that you want to watch for anything except the nude scenes. Nothing, of course, is more boring than a French novel (except perhaps an evening with a French family.)

Cuisine
******* Let's face it, no matter how much garlic you put on it, a snail is just a slug with a shell on its back. Croissants, on the other hand, are excellent although it is impossible for most Americans to pronounce this word. American travelers are therefore advised to stick to cheeseburgers at McDonald's or the restaurants at the leading hotels such as Sheraton or Holiday Inn. Bring your own beer, as the domestic varieties are nothing but a poor excuse for such.

Economy
******* France has a large and diversified economy, second only to Germany's economy in Europe, which is surprising since people hardly ever work at all. If they are not spending four hours dawdling over lunch, they are on strike and blocking the roads with their trucks and tractors. France's principal exports, in order of importance to the economy, are wine, nuclear weapons, perfume, guided missiles, champagne, high-caliber weaponry, grenade launchers, land mines, tanks, attack aircraft, miscellaneous armaments and cheese.

Conclusion
********** France enjoys a rich history, a picturesque and varied landscape and a temperate climate. In short, it would be a very nice country if French people didn't inhabit it, and it weren't still radioactive from all the nuclear tests they run. The best thing that can be said for it is that it is not Spain. Remember no one ordered you to go abroad. Personally, we always take our vacation in Miami Beach and you are advised to do the same.

Regards, George W. Bush President, United States of America

The reason the USA didn't win Vietnam is simple: the administrations in charge fo the war paid too much attention to the cocksucking peacenik faggots, and didn't go in to North Vietnam with the strength necessary to win.

The Bush family understands this lesson, and will therefore ignore the cocksucking peacenik faggots, and go in with whatever strength is necessary to win.

Ben,

Just a second while I get back up into my chair. We agree on something? Holy shit. Actually, we probably agree on that one very small point. According to BBC and CBC (insert joke about Canadian public broadcaster here), there seem to be some contradictions to the American claim that the invasion is going according to plan.

Though they seem to be on schedule insofar as the approach to Iraq goes, the strength of the resistance is proving a bit of a surprise. Supply lines are stretched, and towns that American forces passed through or by are not rid of Saddam supporters. Iraqi forces have not affected progress towards Baghdad, but fighting continues in the American forces' wake. I guess the plan is to take the capital in the expectation that resistance will then crumble. Makes me wonder though - how tough will it be to maintain control once the capital falls? A prolonged guerrilla campaign by the Iraqis must be the chief worry for America, since the longer this goes on, the more chance there'll be that public support at home will wane. So do we still agree Ben?

Ldvee,

I want to make a comment on your remarks. In the interest of keeping things civil, let me say that I'm not casting doubt on your patriotism, but I wanted to hi-lite something you said as a way of drawing attention to what passes for patriotism in the U.S. - and maybe shed some light on why it seems strange to foreigners sometimes.

You said your "biggest concern" was the effect the war might have on your portfolio. I realize you probably didn't put much thought into this statement, and that if questioned more closely, you'd probably revise it. I'm sure the lives of the American's fighting and dying on your behalf probably count for more than your portfolio.

Nonetheless, that kind of off the cuff remark goes unchallenged by fellows who are ready to forego blueberries and rename french fries, whereas, if you'd said "damn this war, I'm going to keep calling em french fries and continue to enjoy champagne", you'd probably have been criticized or at least thought of as unpatriotic. Peculiar notion of patriotism ain't it?

As a general comment, Mr. Cellucci, American Ambassador to Canada, embarrassed the hell out of our PM yesterday by publicly observing that if Canada was ever in trouble, the U.S. would be there to help - no questions asked - since they consider Canada 'part of the family' along with Britain. Consequently, many Americans are disappointed by Canada's present stance.

Those comments resounded strongly for a lot of people up here. Good for him.

Damn Kendricks,

I think your carrying this Republican thing way to far.

Kendriks,

As a friend of mine recently remarked, "the older I get, the more I believe you see things as you are"

You got a lot of hate in you bud. Good luck.

Luckyjackson,

No, like I said my biggest concern is the affect of this war on my portfolio, which rises and falls as does the US economy. So a big part of it is selfishness, but my selfish concern is also everybody elses selfish concern.

Patriotism?? You know I actually had to look up the definition - "love for or devotion to one's country." I've never professed "love" (whatever that is) for this country or any other country. The fact that I'm an American is due soley to my parents citizenship.

One day Bush asks for billions to finance this war and the next day he wants to cut tax revenues. I don't get it. Maybe I'm just too simpleminded.

My biggest councern is the affect of this war on the American economy, which largely defines America. So maybe I am patriotic.

LJ,

I think you are right that it was "off the cuff" what Ldvee said and not meant the way it came out.

I feel most Americans that support this war, do so with the idea that the world will be a safer place once Saddam and his thugs are gone.

I was planning on also boycotting canadian bacon, but found out for the most part it is processed in the U.S. Also after one bottle of California Champage, I had to lower my patriotic standards.

What I worry about regarding the ease of which the U.S. and Great Britian have moved through Iraq is that maybe they are getting set up for a trap near Baghdad. Of course since we know Iraq has no chemical or biological weapons, I guess silly me is just worrying over nothing.

Man those soldiers look young.

Ben, I previously had allowed my NRA membership to lapse, because I was pissed at the way it only supports major party candidates, and refuses to endorse Libertarian progun candidates.

Now that I have thrown my political support solidly behind the Republicans, and since the Libertarian Party has proven itself unworthy of my continued support, I am once again a proud card-carrying NRA member.

kendrickswhowillonlyvoteforrepublicnasinallfutureelections

Well apparently, it wasn't on off the cuff remark. Ldvee appears to have said what he meant.

Ben:

I worry about this all being a trap in a "sci-fi" sense, it is hypothetically possible, but not likely. We have better chem warfare gear than the Iraqis, so it doesn't help Saddam to use that stuff. In fact, its more likely that we will use it rather than Saddam, since we can always blame Saddam for using it. The sci-fi fear is 1,000,000 Iranians crossing the border at night and swarming our tanks sitting outside Bagdad, just for the hell of it.

As for the war itself, I find myself counting the number of times that we say something that becomes "non-operative" later on:

The general uprising in Basra. Not.
Umm-Qasr is 100% pacified. Or not.
We control Basra. Not.
Our tanks are almost outside Bagdad and moving quickly. Or not.
Saddam is dead. Not
Saddam is injured. Or not.
Shock and awe. Not.
Iraqi command and control is disabled and they are fighting in an uncontrolled manner. Or not.
This will be a quick war. Or not.

Traditionally, the side that makes the worst predictions or reporting loses. Since the Iraqis lie by habit, this becomes a tough call. I suspect that some of our bad reporting is simply dis-information.

CNN reports that a convoy of 1000 Iraqi vehicles is heading south to meet our forces. I had no clue that the Iraqis were so stupid. I guess they don't know that radar can see through sandstorms.

If there isn't another "Highway of Death" within 24 hours, something is wrong with the world.

Were they heading out of Basrah?

Two different reports, the 1000 vehicle convoy out of Bagdad, and the 70 tank retreat from Basra.

BTW, ever notice that Fox News adds an extra "h" to Iraqi place names?

Some retired General, I think named Patroski just said on CNBC that the Iraqis would not send out a 1,000 vichicles from Baghdad. He was hoping it was true, but said he didn't believe the report.

If they did send out a large group to meet our troops, I hope they let the Iraqis get some distance from Baghdad so they can't get back quickly.

The warthogs among others would have a field day.

Batster

So we should go after countries that are in violation of UN resolutions. Israel is in violation of 64 UN resolutions since 1967. Hmmmm. or are you saying that the US is just so righteous that it is only our opinion that counts and that we are the only country that has the responsibility of pre emtion, which could bring the entire world into war within a few months. As the war is now transformed into an Urban setting we will see if this one does in fact drag out for 4 to 8 months or perhaps a year or more. The only way to win in such an urban setting is to level Bagdad with hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties unless the Iraqi people suddenly take to the streets and rejoice us by throwing flowers even though we are now killing hundreds of their people. I think that cowboy Bush has led us into a very slippery slope with very dangerous possibilties for world war now in all of our futures. We shall see what happens, but I think that no good will come of this. I just hope that North Korea does not do anything crazy like send one millions troops into the South, could be a little tricky for our 37,000 troops there with almost no air support. In either way our president and his administation has ushered in a very dangerous new world (order LOL) for us and the United State will very soon become one of the most dangerous places to live in the world.

Why would Canada be in any danger? They declined to support this war.

In several of your tirades you have said the U.S. invading Iraq will cause us to be hated by Muslims/the Middle East and it will cause terrorist attacks on the U.S.

Since these terrorists will exact revenge on the U.S. it would appear to me that Canada will be held in high esteem by Iraq, etc.

Ben,

I'm assuming that was directed at me. If so, you didn't read my post with much care.

Your Ambassador said IF Canada were ever in any danger the U.S. would be there to help. He did not suggest such danger was imminent, and I don't think I did either.

As far as my 'tirades', it's already a fact that many Muslims resent the U.S. This invasion has not improved that situation, it's exacerbated it. I think that's beyond argument.

As for my comment about terrorism, I'm too lazy to look back and see exactly what I wrote, but I believe my words suggested an increased liklihood of terrorism against America. I don't believe I said it was a sure thing.

All of this seems self evident.

James, ever think of changing your handle to "Nervous Nelly"? ;) I've never heard so many 'end of the world' predictions from one guy before.

I think this war will mean a safer world - in the short term at least. There's no telling what the long term effects of Bush's Pax Americana will be. If America fails to win the support and gratitude, (or at least the apathy) of the muslim masses, then it's likely the middle east will be fertile ground for the breeding of more terrorists. The worse off the populace, the easier it is for terrorists to recruit and win support. But that's a long way off from the world becoming the kind of picture you're painting.

(Message edited by luckyjackson on March 26, 2003)

Jackson

I have never said anything about the end of the world. I only am talking about world war, with one we do not assume the other. I strongly disagree with you that us attacking a country that does not threaten us or its neighbors will make our world safer. But then you agree that this war and its carnage on innocent civilians will make a fertile breeding ground for terrorists, but not in the near future. So how long then before we see the results of this increase in terror as a result of this war, ????? would it be umm 3 months, 4 months, perhaps 8 or 9 months, perhaps a year, or just tell me what you mean by a long way off. I saw our country change forever in a matter of about 30 minutes 18 months ago. No, I am not being mr dooms day, I just see a huge change in the way people in the world, Europe look at Americans now. Creating enemies and making the ones we already have more antagonistic, will in no way make this a safe place. This simply is not logical. Halliburton will be the first to profit from this it seems, just I predicted about 2 weeks ago, although not a difficult prediction. On the other hand I wish the elder Bush would have had the balls to go in to Bagdad in '91. It would have been a much different atmosphere at that time and we would have been rid of Saddam 12 years ago.

So, how come the Iraqi generals are sooooo stupid to put their tanks in nice columns for our aircraft to destroy? Is this all part of some tank recycling program?

There is not a direct relationship between the U.S. attacking Iraq and more terrorist attacks. Don't you agree that 9/11 has disproved it? We were not even thinking that much about Iraq before 9/11, but we still suffered the worst terrorist attack in our history. Bush adopted the doctrine of prevention because no action would have allowed Saddam to see how far he could go before we did something about it. With that in mind, it's possible that we might go after Iran and Syria next. Doctors know that people don't pay a penny for prevention, but would pay anything to get a cure once they get sick. That's why this war is so controversial and the attacks on Afganistan were almost 100% supported.

Perhaps it is an insurance scam

"There is not a direct relationship between the U.S. attacking Iraq and more terrorist attacks. Don't you agree that 9/11 has disproved it?"

Jarocho

I am trying to understand your logic but I must confess I am not able to. You are saying that 9/11 is proof that there will not be any terrorist attacks as a result of this war, hmmm still makes no sense. Everyone aggrees that terrorist groups will swell their ranks as never before as a result of this war, so you are saying that with a million people or what ever the number vs 25,000 in Al-Quieda that this will not result in Terror attacks??? And you are saying we should go to war against Iran with 4 times the population of Iraq, and Syria, North Korea, (which would probably bring in China into the war) Why yes this sounds like a wonderful plan to make the world a very safe place. Hell lets go after all of them at once and hell lets hit Russia while we are at it. I think that by definition what you are describing is world war.

Either way, this will probably require the re instituting of the draft so we can send at least 600,000 to 800,000 men and women over seas for these Crusades of the 21st century.

So if we destablize many governments of the world over the next few months or what ever it is, then I just wonder, who is really the greatest threat. It has not happened yet and I hope that it does not, but "nation building" is a very dangerous concept.

We are on the brink of war in Korea, this is a much more serious threat

Peacenik Jamesbr said: "Everyone aggrees that terrorist groups will swell their ranks as never before as a result of this war"

Bullshit. I don't agree. We just need to keep on busting up terrorist groups, killing their leaders and members, and disrupting their activities, as we have been doing post 9-11.

There is a reason why we haven't had any major attacks since 9-11: we have unleased our anti-terrorist operatives like a pack of hungry wolves. Traitors (like you) would have us sit around with our thumbs up our collective ass, while those who would destroy us arm and organize themselves.

Fortunately, Bush is ignoring the traitors and peaceniks, taking the world by the balls, and hitting these bastards where they live.

(Message edited by kendricks on March 26, 2003)

Kendricks
Kendricks
first of all in you are a real dumb ass to begin with, what do you do for a living, sanitation engineer with a 2nd grade education. You are nothing but a meat head. So I am a traitor because I do not agree with this war? You cannot debate so you stoop to insults. We have not had any attacks since 9/11 because we started a war LOL, don't worry dumb ass they are coming now for sure. He is taking the world by the balls and we are about to get kicked in the balls again.

After reading your postings, as a war lover, that loves to see people die, why don't you start with your self numb nuts and go over there yourself. If you want to fight so bad why not start with some "traitors" like me shit head. You are nothing but a low life low class uneducated idiot that bases all of his "knowledge" on the 5:30 news and CNN.

Iraq is not a terrorist group and has had nothing to do with them or with 9/11, or is that a concept that is too difficult for you to understand?

We certainly have a lot of peacenik traitors to take care of in the US alone before we start going after them overseas. Shame on them for thinking independently. We should revoke the 1st Amendment so we can go after all those traitors.
(fyi, this paragraph is sarcasm)

Of course not everyone agrees, but I think most Americans that read past the headlines and easily a majority of the world that has opinions would agree that our pre-emptive war has done a marvelous job of unifying the Arab world against us and greatly damaged our reputation throughout the world. Americans might believe it to be wrong, but in the minds of MILLIONS of people, this war is about greed and the monster is the one that initiated a pre-emptive war.

There's certainly a danger of more 9/11's, but they are not the greatest threat. The bigger threat is the smaller groups and the shorter term planning. We have enough trouble tracking down letter bombers, abortion doctor assassins, and tag-team snipers...now we're supposed to monitor all the smaller groups that will pop up in the "Axis of Evil", and the Middle East, and every other country that has citizens willing to violently protest?

I lean in support of the war, but I also hold the opinion that this move is one of the riskiest and potentially devastating ones that the US has undertaken. I wonder if our resolve will be as strong if or when people start dying INSIDE the US as a result of the war.

James,

I think I made my opinion clear in the post you responded to. I said that the aftermath of the war would determine the long range probability of more terrorism.

Kendricks...well you're still Kendricks.

WTF!!!???

First report today: 1,000 Iraqi tanks streaming south out of Bagdad towards our troops.

Second report: 1,000 Iraqi troops carriers streaming south, not tanks.

Third report: 1,000 Iraqi troops heading south.

Fourth report: Never mind.

What is going on with our intel?

Explorer

I think that the intel originally reported that there were 1000 troops or vehicles moving to defensive positions to the south of Bagdad, and a soldier told an embeded reporter for CNN that they were moving to
ward US troops, which was not correct, but too late the story was out and circulating in a matter of seconds. Wow it would be great if they were dumb enought to leave Bagdad and meet us head on, we could only be so lucky

For clarification:

Having a difference of opinion is not traitorous. However, it should be clear to anyone with an IQ over 30 that we are NOT going to pull out of this war, until it has been won.

Publicly voicing opinions during time of war which lead our enemies to believe that our collective resolve is weak, and which lead our enemies to believe that if they put up a little more resistance, and kill and torture a few more of our soldiers, we will pull out, will only get more American soldiers killed, and will only make the campaign longer.

Accordingly, people who publicly protest and voice anti-war opinions are disgusting, filthy traitors, as their actions directly result in the death of US servicemen and women. America will allow them to retain their right to voice traitorous opinions, of course, although they really don't deserve that, or any other, right.

There is one form of protest I heartily endorse, though: a war protester in San Francisco jumped to his death off the Golden Gate bridge, to express his opposition to the war. I think it would be nice if the rest of the protesters followed his lead.

Explorer8939

“What is going on with our intel?”

I hate to tell you but… The reports that you get from CNN and other media is not even close to our Intel. Those reports are the standard media practice of reporting unverified info just so they can be the first to “break” the news.


“BTW, ever notice that Fox News adds an extra "h" to Iraqi place names?”

As far as I can tell all of the media CNN, FOX, NBC, UPI, Routers spell Baghdad with an “h”.

"Accordingly, people who publicly protest and voice anti-war opinions are disgusting, filthy traitors, as their actions directly result in the death of US servicemen and women."

Kendricks,

this must not be clear to you as you obviously do not have an IQ over 30, but protest is a protected right, furthermore the US service men and women are actually fighting to protect that right, historically. So what you are saying is that one man the commander in cheif should be able to take our military into any country and attack and we should not question his actions EVER. Save the war powers act, which seems to be a bit of a farce, he can do just that. When people have no say in what their governments do, then you can only call that Tyranny. Protests do not kill US service men and women, only policies made by our administration which throws them into the arms of the enemy does. US service men and women do not make policies, so I am not disagreeing with them, they are doing what they are trained to do and told to do. You remind me of the radio talk show host Mike Gallagher, who said last week that all forms of protest and disagreement with anything that the government does should be rewarded with prison terms. He further went on to say that if the government labled these persons as "enemy combatants" they not only could be arrested and held forever without trial but could in fact be executed in secret. This is in fact true as a result of the Patriot act.

So what do you think, should everyone who disagrees with the government be shot on the spot like in ummmmmm Iraq, LOL.

You are quite and ignorant Cretin Kendricks.

Our founding fathers that started this country were traitors too, Dissent takes far more courage than being a obedient robotic non questioning idiot.

You know, its possible to disagree with someone and not have to state that they are a moron or a traitor.

Unless, of course, you are involved in an internet flame war and you just can't control yourself. Since no one here fits in that category, can't we all just get along?

Explorer,

sometimes I think your ideas are wacked. But I seriously enjoy all your posts. That last one was very funny. And dont worry I always have my flame suit on.

Jamesbr,

It is obvious that you are so anti-war that you would never even seriously consider any one elses arguments that are contrary to yours. So why continue the debate? What Kendricks said has merit. There is little doubt that all the opposition to this war has emboldended Hussein. Why do you think his propaganda machine is in overdrive? But just ask members of th emilitary what they think. Many in the military think that, yes, this level of dissent is bordering on traitorous. It goes beyond being in disagreement.

You go on and on about Bush deciding to attack Iraq on his own. Last fall a majority of congress approved military action against Iraq. More than 40 nations support the US. Spain, Poland, And Australia, all have combat troops planes or ships in combat action. Yet you still insist that the action is unilateral. Even the UN has tacitly agreed that there is legal basis under international law for the attack. Thats why you have not seen an immediate resolution condemning the attack. Yet you insist it is just Bush being a cowboy. Just admit you hate Bush and anything he does. There is absolutely nothing he could do that would please you. If Kendricks is on one extreme you are on the other.

You also make blanket statements like "everyone" thinks that terrorist’s ranks will swell". Not true. Many feel that terrorism increases in the face of inaction. Many believe that it was precisely the inaction of the Clinton administration that emboldened Osama Bin Laden to increase the intensity of his attacks. Many feel that actively going after organizations and countries that have supported terrorism will help diminish it.

My pappy was one of those evil rape and plunder “big oil” boogey men. He spent considerable time in the Middle East. That does not make him an expert on the Arab mind, but he probably has more insight than most on this board. For the last 20 years he has been saying that the Arab mind does not understand diplomacy. It understands only force. Show a little force and you get their attention. Its time to show a little force.

As for your allegation that George Bush Papa did not have the balls to go all the way to Baghdad, I could not agree more. Big mistake. Just one of the reasons I didn’t like him. But I bet if he would have gone in, all of the UN loving peaceniks would have been apoplectic. Because the UN mandate was to only liberate Kuwait and disarm Hussein. Not remove him. And of course we could not go against the UN mandate. That would be a very very bad thing. Bush Daddy should have told the UN to take a hike. But he was a pussy and did not. By the time that it was evident that Hussein had no intention of complying and the UN had passed further resolutions trying to get him to do so, Bush was out of office.

The person who really fucked up was Clinton. He let this go on and on and on for 8 years. Just like he let Osama go when Sudan offered him up on a platter. Clinton could have invaded Iraq. His party would have backed him and the anti war movement would have been mute. Because it is really an anti-bush movement. There are plenty of democrats that backed Clintons "Regime Change Policy" in 98 that are now railing against Bush. But Clinton talked big and did little. So typical.

As for Israel, I am not a big Israel defender. I am particularly pissed off that the assholes keep selling sensitive military hardware to the Chinese and have repeatedly spied on the US military. I also think the Palestinians are entitled to some territory. And I don’t think that Israel should be setting up new communities on the west bank.

You are right. Israel is in violation of many UN resolutions. And If I am not mistaken, they are under frequent attack from their neighbors. And I don’t see the UN doing anything to stop the attacks. The only time the UN gets involved is when it looks like Israel will actually snap up more territory from the very aggressors that are attacking it (The Sinai, southern Lebanon, etc). So I guess that supports my argument doesn’t it? Iraq does not comply and it gets attacked. Israel does not comply and it gets attacked. I said I suppose if a nation is in defiance of multiple UN resolutions and its neighbors have some justification under International law, or have real fears for their security, then maybe they are justified to attack. But once again it is not a good comparison. Because no nation in that region can prove that Israel is a threat to there sovereign integrity. Israel has never attacked a neighbor without provocation( unlike Saddam). And the only justification the arab countries have under international law for attacking Israel is Israel's defiance of UN resolutions.

Everybody forgets something about Israel. It was founded under a UN Charter. A nation actually created by the international community. With France and Britain as prime movers. And since, as we have recently learned, the UN is perfect and the only legitimate body to determine world affairs, the existence of Israel should be inviolate. Shouldn’t it? Most Arab nations don’t believe so. Most of the Arab nations have been at a state of war with Israel since its establishment. They wish to deny Israel the right to exist.

Arab leaders to this day advocate the extinction of Israel as a country. I believe only Jordan and Egypt have diplomatic relations with Israel. Even the Palestinian authorities don’t want peace with Israel. Arafat has never publicly admitted the right for Israel to exist. IN fact he has repeatedly said he would like to push the jews into the sea. Barak offered Arafat practically everything the Palestinian’s have been asking for during all of these years and Arafat walked away from it. A good demonstration that he does not want peace. He is a terrorist. There will be no solution in Palestine until he and all his ilk are gone. He and most Arabs are genocidal in their intentions for Israel. Israel is for all intensive purposes under siege. So what is Israel to do? Should it comply with resolutions that are designed to weaken its position and strengthen the hand of its declared enemies? Should it comply with resolutions that are sponsored by the very nations that wish to see it disappear? And disappear not only as a nation, but also as a people? I am glad you bring Israel up. Israel is just another example of the UN being on the wrong side of the issue. Another example of the UN bureaucracy engendering more violence not preventing it.

Apart from Turkey, Israel is the only truly functioning Democracy in the Middle East. And it’s a vibrant little democracy. Palestinians and other Arabs can actually be citizens. Arabs actually sit in the Knesset. There are elected officials in Israel that support the Palestinian position. Contrast that with The Arab countries treatment of Jews and Palestinians. The Arab world could give a rat’s ass for the Palestinians. Kuwait expelled them all at the end of the GWI. The other Arab countries treat them at arms length. They could give them territory if they wished. But they wont. Jordan is the only Arab state that will even allow a Palestinian to become a citizen. How about that? Israel and Jordan are the only two countries in the Middle East that allow a Palestinian citizenship. Yes, Israel gives Palestinians citizenship. But most arab countries wont. The Arabs could give a rat’s ass about the Palestinians. What they don’t want is a vibrant functioning democracy in their region of the world. It’s a bad example to have around.

Basterwhohastogetbacktowork.

I get the feeling that everyone on this thread has picked their position and plan on staying there regardless of what happens.

A few quotes that grabbed my attention:

Explorer---Now that the US is about to take Bagdad, I'll bet that a lot of the guys who opposed the war last week will now tell us that they really supported the war.

ldvee---yeah well, the VC didn't wear any shoes either, who won that war??

Catocony---Let's face it, no matter how much garlic you put on it, a snail is just a slug with a shell on its back.

Jamesbr---Creating enemies and making the ones we already have more antagonistic, will in no way make this a safe place.

Kendricks---(Message edited by kendricks on March 26, 2003)

Kendricks---Kendricks---There is one form of protest I heartily endorse, though: a war protester in San Francisco jumped to his death off the Golden Gate bridge, to express his opposition to the war. I think it would be nice if the rest of the protesters followed his lead. (I decided to give Kendicks 2 quotes even though I liked his first one the best. )

d'Artagnan---Americans might believe it to be wrong, but in the minds of MILLIONS of people, this war is about greed and the monster is the one that initiated a pre-emptive war.

Luckyjackson--- If America fails to win the support and gratitude, (or at least the apathy) of the muslim masses, then it's likely the middle east will be fertile ground for the breeding of more terrorists. The worse off the populace, the easier it is for terrorists to recruit and win support.

Explorer:
"WTF!!!???
"First report today: 1,000 Iraqi tanks streaming south out of Bagdad towards our troops.
Second report: 1,000 Iraqi troops carriers streaming south, not tanks.
Third report: 1,000 Iraqi troops heading south."

This is why I asked what city they are coming out of. I heard a couple different reports like this. Truthfully I'm getting sick of watching the news on this war. They all want to be the first to put out the report and lose site of the importance of accuracy. A thousand tanks??? When I first heard this report I thought that there was at least one extra zero in that number. When I watched a press conference with Brigadier General Whatshisname he was asked about these reports and said he could not confirm any of them.

BTW, the spellcheck on my computer also give these spellings with a "H", but speling isn't too important.

-snapper-

(Message edited by snapper on March 26, 2003)

James, you dumbass, you totally miss the point. I know that complex concepts are tough for you to comprehend, but I will break it down for you again:

1. No one is claiming that war protests are illegal. Yes, you have the legal right to protest.

2. If you use your legal right to protest while we are in the middle of a shooting war, you are sending a message to the enemy: "our country is divided and has no collective resolve. If you drag this on long enough, and kill and torture enough of our soldiers, we will turn tail and leave."

3. By sending this message, you are strengthening the enemy's resolve, which will result in more death on BOTH sides. We will still win, of course, but you will make the entire situation worse, and potentially delay the inevitable.

4. Since the logical and foreseeable result of their actions will cause more US soldiers to die in combat, protesters are filthy, disgusting, cocksucking traitors, even though their actions are technically legal.

Tight Fit, thinking people will sometimes change their positions, when presented with sufficient evidence. For example, I was previously opposed to having Bush in the white house. However, since he has proven himself to be a strong, fierce, gutsy leader, I have changed my position, and now intend to vote for him in the next election.

What was the second quote of mine you liked, by the way? I only see one quoted in your post, although you refer to two.

Kendricks, you missed the joke. The first quote was "(Message edited by Kendricks on March 26, 2003)". That's it. I then decided that you might think I was making fun of you, which I guess I was, so I added a second one.

Even though I don't agree with some of the people on this board at various times I still try to give their posts a look or two. This thread is way off of the general theme of the board but has been one of the better such ones. Virtually everyone is taking the time to think about what they are saying. Considering that the typical American citizen usually doesn't have a clue or interest in much of anything outside of their immediate existence it's great to see how many people are taking a real look at where we are going and why.

Most of the shit that has happened to this nation in our lives has been due to the utter ineptness and corruption of our political and military leaders. 9/11 shook the country up because suddenly we were forced to look at some issues that were normally buried in the news or completely rewritten by those who have their own agendas to promote.

I fall on the side of those who feel that regardless of our military success in Iraq we will pay a very high future price in dealing with a multitude of nations. It's easy to talk about "nuking the ragheads" or whomever today's enemy is but that doesn't work in the real world. And even worse, many of these formally distant groups now have the ability to reach us both physically and emotionally. And they are only going to grow in strength as long as we continue to support regimes and societies that are fundamentally evil.

You can't ignore the cries of literally billions of people by calling them stupid. These socalled stupid people control the natural resources that we need. Oil, natural gas, copper, gold, wood, and virtually every other commodity out there. And they want a cut of the profits! All the material wealth that we consider "normal" and is just a dream to them. And they are sick of seeing our government directly or indirectly supporting those who keep them in poverty or outright murder them for their land and a source of cheap disposable labor.

We helped create almost all of the nut cases in the Middle East at one time or another. Israel was the first and probably 90% of the cause why we are hated so much. Israel wasn't created by a UN charter, it was one of the side plays of the leaders in WW II. Just like Eastern Europe which was ceded to Stalin. The first leaders of Israel were ALL hard core terrorists who bombed civilian hotels and promoted wide spread massacures of native Palestinians to create panic. This is the foundation and continued policy of the only socalled democracy in the Middle East. Oh sure, you get to vote if you wear a round cap on your head and spit on Palestinians as you walk though their remaining villages quoting Judism as the shell of a superior race.

The Shaw of Iran was our big time buddy and we now have a country supporting terrorism against us while hoping to build nukes in the near future. The former rulers of Afghanistan, and most of Al Quida, were trained and logistically supplied by us during the Russian invasion. Gosh, and now they are using that training against us. Sadam was perfectly acceptable for a long time and no one seemed to care about his background or local attrocities. Did he suddenly go psycho or did he just outlive his usefullness in a new post Cold War world?

LMAO. Between Kendricks and Jamesbr, who's the dumbass? I would have to say Kendricks is the dumbass and not Jamesbr. At least Kendricks is entertaining.

We lost the Vietnam war because of the peaceniks? lol. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It was because of seriously underestimating the opponent, fatigue in the jungles, informants in the civilians, lack of familiarlity with the locations, soldiers posing as civilians and support from other communist countries. Some of the factors could play a hand in the current war.

DJ

Jesus Fucking H. Christ.

I leave the country for a couple weeks, and y'all start a friggin' war.

As a longtime peacenik activist, I've spent many years as a concientious objector. Opposing war in a Gandhi-style fashion is a noble and gutsy cause, and I respect those who put their well-being on the line in defense of civility in these barbaric, ignorant times. Of course the conformist lemmings on this site and elsewhere want to silence the peace activists, destroy civil liberties, transform the press into a propaganda machine, and brain-wash the masses.

I applaud the true patriots who understand the importance of cherishing the Jeffersonian ideal of having an informed and educated populace, even in these difficult times. People who suggest that political dissenters (e.g. peace activists) should remain silent are truly un-American and un-patriotic. They are unwittingly the new fascists, who have no concept of Jeffersonian democratic ideals. Now more than ever we need free-thinking, vocal dissenters, and not the kind that turns bland in difficult times.

Having said that, I must say that this war makes intuitive sense to me. It makes sense to focus on warrior-extremists like Saddam, as well as Islamic fundamentalists, and blast these hateful entities off the face of the earth (compassionately). It doesn't matter that there is no substantiated link between Iraq and 9/11 terrorists or even Islamic extremism. Saddam is above the threshold of tolerability, clearly a risk to national and worldwide security in the aftermath of 9/11.

One of the tragedies of this conflict is that GW Bush is a complete idiot, nothing like his rather brilliant father. (Bush senior was something of a guilty pleasure for this recovering lefty). The current Bush has squandered the US's position internationally. Unlike his father, he has failed to create a powerful international coalition in support of the war. He has squandered the strong international sympathy the US enjoyed following 9/11. He and his "Homeland Security" cronies have ushered us into a post-democratic, neo-fascist era that does not bode well for independent, iconoclastic thinkers, or for free speech. Those constitutional rights and civil liberties were worth fighting for and may be gone forever.

This war did not have to be an international diplomatic disaster, and 9/11 did not have to serve as an excuse to sweep civil liberties under the rug. Bush as done an abysmal job of selling this war to our nation and the world. His arrogance and incompetence will cost our nation dearly, unfortunately. If you are lucky enough to perceive our nation's dangerous political and diplomatic errors, but decide to remain silent, you are not a patriot. You are one of the assimilated sheep.

Yours in international whoring^TM

Dogster
Multi-continental Whoring Specialist

Batster

First of all I do not consider myself anti war. I simply do not think this one is a good idea with very little support. The only nation that has popular support of this confict with us is Israel, almost all of the others, we simply have the heads of state supporting us for probably their own reasons and not for the security of the world or the US.

A majority of Congress approved this soon to be disaster because Bush put it to a vote just before the November elections and the spinless Democrats went along so as not to seem,,, umm spineless. I do not hate Bush I just think he is quite a dim wit with no diplomatic ablity as a statesman which is in of itself very dangerous.

And as for Israel, I began having a difficult time with Zionism after understanding the little talked about occurance in the 1960's when they slaughtered the sailors on the USS Liberty on the pretext of blaming it on Egypt to bring the US into the six day war in 1967.

see
http://www.logogo.net/liberty.htm

As for the protests as the war continues, I personally would not do it in the street at this point as now it is too late anyway, although I have no problem voicing my opinion that I think that this is going to become a disater beyond any of our comprehension. I will not be a brainwashed
passifist and simply agree with everything because I am told to do so.

Tight Fit

very good points, Bin Laden was a CIA asset and some think he still was right up untill 9/11. We created the monsters to do our dirty work for us and now they are giving us some work of our own to do.

So now the war goes on. I begin to wonder if Bush made a mistake by assuming that the Iraqis would welcome us as liberators, to know the answer to this question all one needs to do is look at history of the region. It is beginning to look like this will end up as a house to house fight in a city of over 5.5 million people. If this is so and I hope not, then this will become very bloody indeed, like Vietnam in the concrete Jungle.

Dick, you dumbfuck, if the USA had simply bombed the shit out of the North Vietnamese command structure, we could have easily taken the whole country.

The problem was that the people running the show were too timid, and didn't go balls out, as they obviously should have. George W will not make that mistake.

Moreover, Gandhi-style faggotry is neither noble nor gutsy, it is sad and pathetic. Those who wring their hands over "international consensus building" are also a national embarrassment.

Any American who thinks we should kneel down before the French and seek permission to act needs to pull his baguette out of his ass, and act like a god damn man for a change.

W, keep on kicking ass, brother. God damn, it feels good to have someone with some balls in the white house for a change. What a great time to be an American!!!