I wonder if the Hombres would find the following commentary offensive or somehow meriting a flame? I posted it on another board in the midst of a thread about whether or not providers actually respect men (I hope it's OK to repost, if not then I'm sorry mister H-man!), and it didn't really get sympathetic responses. Funny thing is, it's a provider-review board where it first appeared, and yet people actually responded that there might be something wrong with me for only wanting sex with beautiful women, and not with just any old woman. WTF??!!

Here's my comments in full (links to the sources appear at the bottom)

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Hahaha. And vice versa: are there any men here at TER who can honestly say they respect providers ... or respect women, at all, for that matter?

I hear your implications. I understand your implied point. I, too, feel your pain. In my experience with providers, with women in general, I seldom get the impression that the other person is going out of her way to figure out how to respect me, out of some personal choice. She may "end up" respecting and even liking me (sort of, "by default," as it were), or she may "pretend" to respect me as long as I'm the paying customer. But her base understanding of human interaction is the following:

what's in it for me?

You seem to be implying by your question, that you'd like to meet some people who are a little less cynical about life. "Do providers actually respect men?" implies a larger issue, as "Are there any providers who would do this for me if I didn't pay them $300 an hour?" or even, "Why can't I charge for sex like they can, and why is the power so imbalanced and why am I the one who is seemingly controlled by his biology and not vice versa? How do I get out?"

By the way, you may not be implying those ideas, but I certainly am inferring them. That's where I'm coming from. I want "free" of the imbalance of power. It ruins my day, day after day after day. Women control me, by means of their femininity and my desire for it. And they aren't interested in sharing or helping or making my life easier or, for that matter, "respecting" me in any of those terms. They're interested in keeping my money.

I remember once, a long time back, on these very boards, the following amazing event.

A very very beautiful woman -- and I know she was beautiful because she has a website -- described an occasion that she very much wanted to share. Through a sexual act, she had "seen the goddess" and had experienced such a wonderful human interaction that it changed her life, made her open up to the wonder of the world, just got her to be more spiritual and happy all at once. I felt this was a great thing. She went on to describe how it had happened -- she and another very very beautiful woman had gotten together with that other woman's extremely gorgeous Chippendale hunk of a boyfriend, and they had had sex in a "meaningful" and "mutually respecting" way. This was just great. For them.

What amazed me about the story was two-fold. First, that the woman was describing this experience to us as though it were a novelty to her -- as though it were the first time any human had discovered the deep and powerful interaction between sexual activity and human trust, between spirituality and connecting with body as well as mind. She had invented this wheel, and she was damned proud of it. She did not once express the sense that she was following in humanity's footsteps, but rather that she herself was the more enlightened one for having created a path the rest of us might follow. She presented herself as a type of "savior" or "messiah" figure, "helping" the readership to open minds and change souls. I found that patronizing.

The second thing that amazed me about the story was that she took occasion to tell the rest of us that we were the problem. Why can't we all just have better sex, like that, all the time, she asked? Why are people so hung up on sexuality, and on Puritanical restrictions, and on silly things like monetary exchange and tit (ahem) for tat, that we aren't all helping one another to see the goddess (or the god, for that matter) more often? I found that fault-finding to be quite offensive. Naturally, for most men on the boards, it isn't the MEN who are resisting the opportunity to have sex with the women, it's quite the opposite.

This set of questions of hers were rapidly followed by a thousand horny bastards hollering "I'm in, I'm in! I'll help you see the goddess again!" Of course, she had forgotten that SHE was the one who charged $300 an hour, SHE was the one universally desired by the opposite gender because of her amazing body, perfect face, flawless breasts. SHE was the one preventing US from experimenting, growing, changing, because of her own insecure need to restrict others' access to her.

I, too, would love to see the god or goddess, to have mind-blowing physical experiences, and even better spiritual experiences, thanks to sexuality. I tend to feel (to bring this topic back to its original subject) that the restrictions placed on me, not only by society at large, but also by the beautiful women I would LIKE to get intimate with, are what's preventing this spiritual development of mine. To hear a stunningly beautiful woman who would NOT date me without being paid for it, announce that I was the hung up one and she was much more enlightened because she had (on this one special occasion) "freely" engaged in sex with a more open mind, was utterly galling. Infuriating. I've spent most of my adult life chasing around trying to find a woman who would have pleased me physically as much as that hot hot hot looking provider would have, and not being able to find her, or if I have, then I also found that she wasn't going to be my partner in human respect, and instead she was going to squeeze as much money out of me as she felt the market and my wallet would bear, for the "privilege" of sharing the goddess with her. And now I'm being told I'm the one who's restrictive, and needs to lighten up?

Anyway, as it relates to "respect," monetary exchange for sex can be quite respectful or not. People can be rude to one another -- as another post says, courtesy is not the same as respect -- or quite polite. But to think of that as a "respectful" situation is problematic, to me. It doesn't provide what I want, which is the knowledge that my own priorities and needs are valuable to the other person. To "respect" someone is to not only give them the common courtesies, or even the BFE courtesies, in the hopes that they exchange for you exactly what you want; rather, it is to go farther, and come to understand what it is like to be that person.

Personally, I regret having come that far. I've learned what I know about women, to date, from people who didn't respect me. And now I am learning not to respect them. The neediness, the selfishness, the stunningly unapologetic nature of the arrangement -- "I'm getting what I want; what's WRONG with that?" as though it were excuse enough to simply enumerate it -- all amaze me. Have these people no worldly awareness, no education, no sense that humanity is, itself, something to cherish? That would have been respect. I've never gotten it from a human female, whether provider or civilian, whether she were the most well-meaning or the most cynical. I've gotten IMITATIONS of it, in the form of good service for an hour or good girlfriendness in exchange for my even better boyfriendness, but I've never actually believed that the other person was capable of walking a mile in my moccasins. And I have done that -- walked a mile in hers -- and am appalled at where I went. The childish, needy, self-determined, pathetically dependent, un-self-sufficient paths I trod ... Oh!

So, now, I'm coming to a new experience about the term "respect." I'm stopping the New-Age-y version of it up in my mind, and trying to forget universal human love and fellowship that will bring us out of our benighted darkness and into a new world of sharing and forgiving. Now, I'm thinking of "respect" in that Texan gunslinger sort of way ... you get the respect that you earn. Treat a woman like shit, and ... unfortunately ... she'll respect you because she knows you have power over her and are willing to wield it. Show a woman what you COULD do for her (and, if you're a cagey bastard, withhold it but PRETEND that you're willing to offer it) and she'll respect you enough to chase you down and try to cajole it out of you.

But offer a woman respect before making some sort of arrangement where you're guaranteed reciprocation, and -- again, unfortunately -- you're 99% likely to find that she will take without giving simply because she can. I don't find men to be that way. I find, generally, that if you start out by putting your offer on the table, he'll do the same, out of RESPECT. There are situations in which all humans are more "what's in it for me" than in other situations, like in business, haggling, international boundary disputes, the like.

But I would have liked to have thought that romance and love would not have been one of those situations -- women force it to be. And that mistake of theirs probably harms them more than me, in the long run: not only because I've figured it out and now know how to avoid personal injury from it; but also because romance and love are the sphere that fulfill a woman more than a man, and more than any other sphere in the world. They've shot themselves in the foot, while aiming to shoot us merely to control us, the ninnies!

This has turned into another of Book Guy's misogynistic posts. I don't want to be a misogynist. Can anyone refute some of the things I've said, help me to be more respectful? I hope so, but I haven't seen it yet ...


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Here's the link to the thread:

http://theeroticreview.com/msgBoard/viewmsg.asp?MessageID=55302&boardID=12

My statements appear in these posts, and following:

http://theeroticreview.com/msgBoard/viewmsg.asp?MessageID=55389&boardID=12

and

http://theeroticreview.com/msgBoard/viewmsg.asp?MessageID=55390&boardID=12


(Message edited by book_guy on August 04, 2003)

Ouch. Ouch again. And again.

I have no idea where to start. It would be nice to take a line out and make that a foundation for some witty and intelligent comment. Unfortunately (is that the right word?) your post all stands together in a way that would be a waste of time to dissect.

BookGuy, I see where you posted that and immediately thought of similar, but of far lesser quality, words written on RedBook.net which is also a US escort discussed board. It has a number of providers who post to threads including one entire section that is only for providers. There is also a section for general relationships contributed to by both the men and women where I often sense that I never got a ticket to the show.

My only question now is whether that's OK and I am actually doing better with the route I have chosen or some other combination of these two situations? The scary part is reading the comments from some of the men, especially in this one particular section, as it is obvious that US directed escort/sex boards are patronized by a very different crowd and mind set than the international ones.

Like yourself I have found the board to be both informative but increasingly frustrating. It bothers me to read many of the comments written by the women concerning their business, how they view themselves, and us as both customers and as men. Maybe it shouldn't be a surprise after this long but I somehow still carried illusions that they were different than "normal" women.

There is no point is rewriting anymore of what you have already said. I can feel it. Not just understand it but I can feel it. And I see your frustration and increasing bitterness. How do you present an sound argument, or a position since that sounds nicer, that it is the woman who is using you or holding you back when it is your own social and biological being that MAKES you need her in a way that she will never return? How can you claim that she "owes" you something when her response will be that she never even knew you existed?

Any stupid beliefs I still had about providers somehow being above or divorced from the superficial way that women view the world as how things LOOK has been erased by their own words. At the end of the day it is still the asshole agressive macho dude who will take the prize home. Unless, of course, she hates men so much that she seeks enlightenment with a mirror image. (BookGuy, I really had to laugh about your goddess who saw the light. It's not fair to blame a women for being beautiful or how we react to her but you still have to laugh/snarl when she deems who will enjoy this discovery of eternal truth with her. Nothing changes.)

Again, the most difficult part of all this is knowing that you hold a losing hand no matter what you do with it. You need her to complete the circle but she doesn't need you. At least she thinks she doesn't but her being wrong doesn't make you right. What we have to offer is only viewed for its financial attractiveness and its ability to hurt other women (Look at me, at my clothes, my diamonds, my house, my designer husband, my, my ,my). And yet, the single most common complaint of a woman is that the failure of relationships is due to the man's inability to express himself emotionally in a giving and compasionate way that is totally devoid of external accesories.

You can't win. You can't even tie. You can't even demand that it not be a contest, that it instead should be a joint sharing between two people. That position can only be held by the woman. And if you don't like that then go play with yourself alone and see what happens when you feel horney.

You better hope that Hillary et al does not win some major position of power. Guys like you will walk the plank. The female constituency, and I guess the males also, that is attracted to her and the accompaning 25 plus years of female "social consciousness" is filled with a hatred towards men, human biology in general, and children/babies that is second to none. And don't expect your local friendly provider to say a few words of pardon or comfort at your trial.

Awesome post, tight-fit ... except for the fact that you sound even more bitter than me. I follow you on ALL your points, the ones that support or agree with me, the ones that demonstrate the difficulty of holding this stance ... all of them. Looking forward to anyone else's opinion? I have a theory ...