Arnold just announced he's in. The Dems don't stand a chance so tomorrow Davis is going to resign, the recall becomes moot, and Bustamonte gives Davis an advisor job and everything stays the same.

watch......

Ldvee: I have heard varying opinions as to whether your scenario can occur legally after the recall petition signatures are accepted and a recall election is approved by the Secretary of State. In any event, I doubt whether Davis would resign at this point given that he is a fighter, if nothing else. There is too much time between now and the election for things to happen and possibly break in Davis's favor, not the least of which might be unfavorable revelations about Ah-nold. Also, there is no love lost between Davis and Bustamonte; the idea that he would give Davis an advisor job with any real power seems unlikely.

Great ! That's what we need . A steroid addled brain and slurred speech so bad no one knows what the fuck he is talking about !! The guy can barely speak English and he wants to be the next Bonzo- I mean GUVERNATOR .

Where IS Ronald Reagan when we need him most ?? Oh yeah -- I forgot !

Get ready for Ahnold as Gov.

Khun mor,

That ws a funny post.

BenLOL

I don't understand what changing the governor will do, to combat terrorism, eliminate the dot-com crash, and improve the economy. I'm sure Gray Davis is a scammer and a twerp (hell, he's a politician), but why would replacing him make things better? It just seems to me this recall thing is a lot of people who didn't have the sense to vote in the first election and now are disappointed with how things went -- is that democracy? At it's best? Or worst?

Actually, I haven't followed the issues carefully. Maybe he deserves it, I dunno. I'm pretty sure replacing him with Schwarzenegger won't improve things. Geez!

I despise Gray Davis. However, the recall is very simply a coup d'etat by deviously motivated individuals exploiting poorly designed and thought through democratic tools. Republicans have decided that they are no longer willing to just sit back and accept electoral defeats...e.g. impeaching Clinton for lying about getting his knob polished (hmmm...wonder what would have happened to Clinton had he openly lied about top secret intelligence that would be used to justify a major war effort?), the Florida debacle, and now this recall. When you've got as much democracy as we do and so few people who give a crap and pay close attention to what is going on, even democracy can be bent into tyranny.

One of the main issues is Gray Davis mislead the public during the last election about California's impending deficit. Hmmmm, the federal deficit under dubya has ballooned to more per capita than California's and he led us into a war under false pretenses to boot. I haven't heard much from the Republicans about getting rid of him.
As I posted on another thread, I wouldn't just assume that Ah-nold has this thing wrapped up. If Davis can convince Bill Clinton to come in and campaign for him, its a whole new ballgame.

Erip, agree with you 100% about the recall being led by devious individuals using poorly designed democratic tools.
I believe some of the recall protocols were designed in the early 1900's. Back then, gathering a million signatures was like gathering the whole damn state [it wasn't anywhere near the most populated state in the USA until after the Dodgers left Brooklyn and relocated here ... and brought other New Yorkers and east of the Mississippi types ... like yourself ].
Nowadays, California has 25 million people and gathering 1 million signatures, especially with the help of professional signature gatherers at malls, gorcery stores, banks, etc., it's not that hard to do.
This thing is getting to be a joke.
What if Gray Davis decides days before the recall vote that he will not keep his job? Can he resign and just give the job to Cruz Bustamante, another Democrat, currently serving in the Lt Governor 2nd spot? That would seemingly invalidate the whole recall election.
Similarly, Willie Brown, the SF slick politician, has threatened that if a Republican gets in via the recall ... what works for the goose can work for the gander. Willie Brown has correctly assessed, gathering 1 million signatures is easy, let's recall Arnold (or whoever) and have another recall vote.
Anybody thinking Arnold is a shoo-in needs to reconsider some things.
Many of the people attending Arnold's outdoor public gatherings are there because of Arnold's celebrity status. How else could you get that close to a Hollywood superstar? I wonder how many of these celebrity groupies have ever voted?
Voting in this recall election is going to be next to impossible for anybody who didn't vote in last year's gubenatorial election. Where exactly are the voting locations going to be with such short notice is intriguing. I suspect I will get a sample ballot about a week before the election only because the county voters registrar unit knows my previously on-file data. Anybody who is not already on-file ... forget about knowing where to vote, or being eligible to vote.
That does not bode well for Arnold and his crowds of newly interested well wishers.
This vote is going to be decided by the same die-hard voters (both Republican & Democrat) who participated in last year's election. Agree?
That is, if Gray Davis decides not to pull out and let's the recallers have a chance to vote.

Rodney
re : That is, if Gray Davis decides not to pull out and let's the recallers have a chance to vote.

The only thing that could have stopped this recall was if Gray Davis' father had decided to pull out. Alas-- too late for that !!!!

I've seen the "cynical manipulation" by professional Republican rabble-rousers first hand, in the Florida elections of 2000. I live near Tampa, and during the re-counting I drove to West Palm, one of the contested counties. What I saw were two camps. One, the Democrats: grass-roots people who lived there and were angry, annoyed, concerned, that their votes might not get counted properly. Two, the Republicans: bussed-in-from-Oklahoma professional protesters opposing them. For this reason alone I can not trust the "manipulations" of the Repub party -- what's going on with redistricting in Texas, with the Calif gov recall, with 2000 election Fla, etc. There's a cynical sense, that if the election results aren't good enough for them, then they can (and do) have the tricky loopholes to change the will of the electorate.

Sure, it's true that Democrats are a bunch of loonie-tunes as well, incapable of adding together the simple arithmetic concepts of "income" and "outflow" to reach a basic mathematical number called a "budget," and determined to give away free services wherever they can find a teary eye. I do'nt like them much, either.

But what CONCERNS me, is that we have a system in which one half can work the system. Enough people don't vote, or don't give a shit, or are misinformed by our rather right-wing television infotainment, that they don't realize the level of corruption. That means, it's THEIR system, the Republicans', and yet that's not how it was designed.

From a Malthusian point of view, I would worry about any cycle that becomes a vicious one, in which a tendency toward one side does not bring about a sudden swing of the pendulum back to the other; but rather, is more likely to recapitulate itself by tending even farther to that side. That's a system in crisis.

Starting with election 2000, I no longer think we live in a Democracy. Certainly not a meritocracy, although that corruption has been going on for a much longer time. It's sad, it concerns me, and I have to figure out how to live a happy life within those constraints. When the right-wingers start hollerin' about who I'm allowed to fuck, then I get angry and give up even on happiness in the name of revenge!

A poll reported today shows 35% will vote against the recall (i.e. to keep Davis as governor); 54% favor the recall, and the rest undecided. Arnold (don't ask me to spell Schwarzenegger) leads all competing candidates with 25% support. Thus if the election was held today, 35% vote for Davis, 25% for Arnold - Arnold becomes governor. No runoffs in this contest. There's some democracy for ya...it's really a thing of black comic beauty!

Whoa, hold on. 35% for Davis and 25% for Schwarzenegger means Schwarzenegger wins? Yeesh ...

Yeah, California is following the lead of the national election process, the candidate who comes in second gets the prize. Maybe its about time to re-evaluate the Founding Fathers' experiment with democracy; it doesn't seem to be working too well!

book guy, I should have explained more clearly since you are not a Californian. There are 2 separate questions on the ballot. The first is do you favor the recall of Governor Davis. The second question is to choose from the 200 or so entries into the race to replace Davis...Davis himself not being among them. That's TWO FUCKING HUNDRED PLUS CANDIDATES ON THE BALLOT!!! [County election administrations are sweating chads]. You can vote for a candidate even if you vote against the recall.

Thus if 35% vote against the recall (i.e. to keep Davis as governor), the recall will carry and the new governor will be whoever gets the most votes on the 2nd question...no matter how small a plurality that may be...the current leader in the polls being Arnold at 25%.

Since about 10% are still undecided and there is no 3rd choice for the first question, I think it is safe to assume that the anti-recall vote will be 40% at minimum by election day.

I actually think that the sole mainstream democrat candidate, Cruz Bustamonte, will overtake Arnold unless dems vote in large numbers for Arnold - which is entirely possible. The arch conservative California republicans, a self-destructive lot if there ever was one, are NOT happy about Arnie and have a candidate more in line with GOP ideology to back. This is not what the GOP right wing had in mind when they put the recall machinery into motion. I imagine Arnold's GOP support will be trimmed way back as his fairly liberal social views become known (e.g. he supports choice and gay marriage - or has in the past). However, the GOP leakage may well be replaced with democrat votes.

I still believe Davis could very well pull this thing out. When people are confronted with why they don't like Davis, it becomes clear that the many of the problems Davis gets blamed for are only partially his fault. For example, the seeds of the energy crisis were planted when the Republican governor before Davis led a program of deregulation of the power industry, something Ah-nold supported; the energy crisis also could have been averted, in part, by even half-hearted enforcement actions by the feds against the energy companies who were Enronning California while Dubya was spending all his time singing "Kenny Boy" to his good friend, Kenneth Lay. The budget deficit is at least partly due to the country's economic problems, which affected California more because California was at the forefront of the new economy, and the dot.com crash really had an impact here. You get someone like Bill or Hillary Clinton to make the case, and a large number of Californians will listen, as they may also listen to Feinstein, Willie Brown, and other prominent Democrats. So long as Davis doesn't appear so hopelessly out of contention that these promiment Democrats decide against putting their personal reputation on the line for a sure loser, Davis has a good shot at staying in office. If not, it looks bleak for the Democrats in this election; Cruz Bustamonte scores very low on the charisma meter although I suppose could overtake Ah-nold if Ah-nold makes some dreadful mistakes.

Laguy, I agree - I haven't written off Davis surviving this process. The issues and his performance aside, he will eventually gather increased support from people who just come to realize what a sham the recall process is. That is why I will vote against the recall - not a vote FOR Davis, but a vote against this process.

Cruz Bustamonte has no charisma that is true. But he is a respected long time public servant. He also has the potential ability to pull in an overwhelming slice of the latino vote...that alone in an election which will be won by a low plurality may be enough.

Erip, Actually, I agree that Bustamonte has a good shot at getting most of the latino vote, as well as the diehard Democrat vote(such as myself); whether he has the ability to energize latinos, and get some of the younger latino voters to the polls may be another story, one critical to whether he succeeds. If he fails to generate the energy, I don't see it happening for him, unless Ah-nold's poll numbers start to collapse.
A key question is which of two forces is going to dominate in the Ah-nold vote: on the one hand his liberal views on social issues could alienate many right-wingers and result in their voting for Simon or another right-wing candidate, on the other hand things have gotten so partisan that when the right-wingers realize that their favorite candidates such as Simon have no chance, they may abandon them for Ah-nold just so they can say they defeated the Democrats. Given the latter possibility, it seems at least as likely to me that Ah-nold's poll numbers will actually increase as time goes on (at the expense of the more peripheral Republican candidates), assuming he makes no major blunders. I am, however, holding my breath for some blunders; I would rather they occur during the campaign thereby effectively disqualifying him, rather than after he becomes governor.
Then again, when Larry Flynt announces that if elected governor he would make Clubhombre the official website of the State of California, he will have my vote and all bets are off. Nothing wrong with special interest politics!

(Message edited by LAguy on August 11, 2003)

Laguy,

The Democrats have governed California for NINE FUCKIN YEARS!!!

Don't blame this crap on the Republicans.

We have two U.S. senators, both houses of the state legislator and a governor who is in his second term that are ALL Democrats.

We now have the privilege of having the highest state income taxes and the lowest credit rating of all the damn 50 states. The state is bankrupt from to much spending on teacher’s salaries (we have one of the worst education systems) and liberal programs to help the poor and needy.

Businesses are fleeing this state in record numbers and still the governor and the legislature don't understand what the fuck is going on. I also include you in that group.



How much more do you think we can take?

Apparently you and your liberal buddies think the status quo is muy bueno

I am generally left of center but Davis is pretty much a goner in my book. Like I've said from the beginning, get ready for Arnold, like it or not.

-DJ

I can just see the headlines after the inaugaration:
"Govenor's Message: Fuck You, Assholes"

Ben: Making up facts is not going to win your argument. You state: "The Democrats have governed California for NINE FUCKIN YEARS!!!" yet Pete Wilson finished his second term as governor in January 1999, which isn't nine years ago, and certainly wasn't that much before the energy crisis hit. The bill that deregulated energy in California passed in 1996, while Pete Wilson was governor, and included some provisions that went into effect years later, some as late as 2002.
If you want to complain about the state income tax, you might want to also mention that in terms of overall tax burden per income (which includes all types of taxes), California is in the middle of the states, not even leaning toward the high end. If you want to lower the income tax rate, maybe you should lead a movement to repeal Proposition 13, which artificially keeps property tax revenues low.
Your Republican friends control the Presidency, and both houses of Congress. Unlike Gray Davis though, the President was not really elected. Bush has managed to drive the federal deficit to numbers that on a per capita basis exceed California's. Maybe he lied about the effects of his tax cuts, or maybe he just isn't too good at arithmetic. In any event, to pretend the economic disaster that Bush has brought us does not affect the state budgets is pure fantasy.
As to teacher's salaries in California, could it have to do with the extremely high cost of living here? In any event, I doubt whether lowering their salaries is going to improve the quality of education in this state. What do you suggest?
I thought that New York's and Louisiana's bond ratings were as bad as California's but my info may be out of date. What info are you relying on?
Cheers.

From my vantage point, Cruz Bustamante is the front runner that the Republicans have to cope with.
The logic goes as follows:
The diehard Democrats who show up on election day could easily total 40% of the total vote (not enough to help Davis but nevertheless a force to be reckoned with). Since the true-blue Democrat has the right to vote on the 2nd ballot question (even if voting NOT to recall Gov Davis) where does that Democrat voter go?
There is only 1 true Democrat available on the 2nd question (who do you want to replace the current Governor) ... so Bustamante is going to get all the diehard Democrat vote (around 40%) by default.
The Republican's problem is that there are several candidates that are claiming they are true Republicans and worthy of the party vote. They include Bill Simon, Arnold, Peter Ueberoff, there's another lesser elected official (McClintock??) etc. If these guys divide up the the non-Democrat diehard vote (100% - 40% = 60%) which figures to be around 60% ... none of them overcomes the 40% vote defaulting to Bustamante.
What do the Republicans do about the problem of too many GOP candidates?
At some time shortly before election day, all the guys laying claim to the Republican vote are going to have to get together in a smoked-filled room and strike a deal. All but one announces that they are no longer ACTIVELY seeking the governor's office except the duly annointed one.
Sounds simple but it's really not.
Arnold is the guy with the most popular appeal and seemingly the only candidate who could possibly challenge Bustamante's monopolistic grip on all the Democrat vote.
Could Simon and others swallow their pride (these guys are much truer Republicans on issues like abortion, gay rights, gun control etc.) and let a marginal Republican like Arnold carry the banner?
That's a tough pill to swallow and I'm not sure if Simon et al are willing to "take one for the team".
Do true-blue Republicans from outside California dare exert pressure on REAL republicans like Simon to step aside?
As the Clint Eastwood character Dirty Harry might say "well punk, how badly do you want to win?".
This election is going to be interesting.
Also, in any election, the voter may be enamored with a 3rd party candidate (in this case, anybody other than Bustamante & Arnold) but at the last moment realize that not voting for either of the two established leading candidates is effectively "throwing away your vote". They eventually abandon their candidate opting instead to adopt "the lesser of two evils" mentality.
SUMMARY: unless Arnold stumbles, forget the other 155 candidates, it's either Arnold or Cruz.
Agree?

LAGuy,

It sounds like you are reading straight from the Democrat Talking Points. You really are a diehard Demo.

I am not an economist, but Californias budget problem seems fairly simple to me. Since Davis took office:

1. Inflation and Poupulation combined are up 22%

2. Overall revenue is up 25%( it is not lower, due to the recession, as many think. It is lower than projected, but the actual revenue is 25% higher than when he took office).


3. Spending is up 37%.

It does not take a genius to see that Davis and the democratic legislature have spent money at a rate that exceeds the growth in revenue, that in turn has kept pace with inflation and population growth. Sorry, but as a business person, I can tell you that does not work. And you cant blame that on Wilson, the Energy crisis, Enron, Bush, Reagan, Anauld, Elvis, or anyone else.

States like Colorado that have capped spending to inflation plus population growth do not have a budget crisis.

I agree with you that Kenny Lay and freinds raped California. Bastards. But if you dig in a little you will find out that he was also pretty damn tight with your heroes Bill and Hillary. But thats another story. I think its a damn shame that the country is so polarized by the parties that people are willing to turn a blind eye to the errors of "their" side while attacking the same errors on the opposite side.

My take on the recall( I am not a California voter). Its not a real good idea. In fact I think its a bad idea. Davis just fairly won the election. If California voters are apathetic or naive enough to vote for him, maybe they deserve 4 full years of his ineptitude.

And if the shenanigans continue, maybe the state will go bankrupt. There is nothing that will bring spending under control like a bankruptcy. Rock on Davis.

Batsterthe independent

Oh, and not that anyone cares, but If I were a California voter, and could vote for a replacement candidate, it would be Tom Mcklintock. He seems to have lots of good answers and knows the budget and legislative processes inside out. He may have the best shot of straightening out the fiscal problems.

If I were voting based on who is most deserving of the post, my vote would have to go to Gary Coleman. African American midgets are severely underepresented in our government bodies. Its not fair and its time that the injustice is righted.

If I were to vote based on who has personally given me the most pleasure( self interest), Larry Flint would be my man. Bless his filthy soul.

And if I just wanted sheer entertainment I would vote for Arnold, or that Kook Arianna Huffington, or the Porn Star, or...........

What a mess.

"Ben: Making up facts is not going to win your argument. You state: "The Democrats have governed California for NINE FUCKIN YEARS!!!" yet Pete Wilson finished his second term as governor in January 1999, which isn't nine years ago, and certainly wasn't that much before the energy crisis hit."

I was referring to the state legislature as to the nine years and of course you are right that Wilson has only been out of office for five years. By the way Wilson lowered our taxes and CA had a very healthy cash reserve when he left office.

"The bill that deregulated energy in California passed in 1996, while Pete Wilson was governor, and included some provisions that went into effect years later, some as late as 2002."

Deregulation of energy is not a bad idea and in some states such as Pennsylvania it has been very successful in lowering energy cost to the residents and has even allowed excess energy to be sold to residents of surrounding states,

The problem in CA was and is that a Democratic legislature and Pete Wilson MADE the utility companies divest themselves of all power plants in order to make sure they bought energy on the open market. It was a bad idea. I will give you a toss up on the original energy bill, but I get a slam dunk on the fact that a panicked Governor Gray Davis signed some contracts with both outside and CA utilities locking in energy rates at prices so historically high they are pathetic Some of these long term contracts will cost us billions of dollars over the next 5-10 years. Hell Davis signed the contracts and then tried to renege on them once he saw how stupid they were and the CA courts have twice ruled against him this year.

I have a good friend who use to be President of a utility company back in the Midwest, but retired and had a consulting company up until a couple of years ago. He told me that Davis had absolutely no clue as to what he was doing during our energy crisis.



"If you want to complain about the state income tax, you might want to also mention that in terms of overall tax burden per income (which includes all types of taxes), California is in the middle of the states, not even leaning toward the high end. If you want to lower the income tax rate, maybe you should lead a movement to repeal Proposition 13, which artificially keeps property tax revenues low."

I have no problem with the repeal of Prop 13, if we had a responsible legislature that would not go nuts on raising our property taxes to an outrageous level. Prop 13 is a very unfair tax to new buyers in a neighborhood who can be paying double or maybe even triple property taxes over someone that has lived in the same home for many years. I and many of my "Republican friends" would pay much higher taxes, as we have owned homes for a long time. So hell why not punishes us for it.

Incidentally, did you notice how much in Federal taxes Swartzenagger (sp?) paid? I thought all the rich Republicans didn't pay any taxes, Oh my God he even gave over a million dollars to charities. I dare him as Repub. to hurt our image.

"Your Republican friends control the Presidency, and both houses of Congress. Unlike Gray Davis though, the President was not really elected. Bush has managed to drive the federal deficit to numbers that on a per capita basis exceed California's. Maybe he lied about the effects of his tax cuts, or maybe he just isn't too good at arithmetic. In any event, to pretend the economic disaster that Bush has brought us does not affect the state budgets is pure fantasy."

Bush has been President for less than three years and he inherited many of his economic problems. If you recall we were already in a stock and economic down turn at least six months before Bush took office. I don't agree with the huge tax cut he has made, but if you look back in history every time we have had a big tax cut it has restarted our economy. EVERYTIME according to Malcom Forbes.

Oh, and please stop your whining about Bush not being elected President. Its over and Bush is da man. I will bet you any amount that Bush is legally the President of the United States.

"As to teacher's salaries in California, could it have to do with the extremely high cost of living here? In any event, I doubt whether lowering their salaries is going to improve the quality of education in this state. What do you suggest? "

How about a word that most teachers hate "Accountability" Teachers and their unions fight to the death any thing that reflects on the individual teachers efficiency in the classroom. I would be even happy to pay teachers more money in the way of bonus's for giving students a better education.

Teachers for the most part work 8 1/2 months a year and have extremely good health and retirement benfits and very good salaries. I have a highschool teacher in San Diego as a client who teaches PE and has been a teacher for 25 years. She is making over $75,000 a year and if she hangs around for anothe 10 years she will receive 80%-90% of her salary plus cost of living increases. I don't brgruge her or other teachers for getting all they could at the public trough, but please quit your/their constant bitching about school administrations and they trying to make the teachers more responsibile for the quality of education od their students

"I thought that New York's and Louisiana's bond ratings were as bad as California's but my info may be out of date. What info are you relying on? "

This is black and white and you are 100% wrong.

I am relying on Moody, S&P, and Fitch. All are very reliable sources on getting bond rating and not only is CA ranked last for financial strength no other state has a rating as low. Oh, I forgot, five years ago when Pete (the weasel) Wilson left office they were AAA rated which is the highest rating a state can receive.

While I am at this I would like to mention that I do not support this recall foe several reasons. The Republicans have done many dumb things in the past, but this is really stupid in my view.

Batster1: Actually Bill and Hillary Clinton are far from being my heroes. I simply observed that they could mobilize the troops in California. And a few of you seem to be overlooking that I said the problems in California I was referring to were at were at least partially Gray Davis's fault. My point is that given that he was not solely responsible for many of these problems, e.g., the power crisis which began shortly after he took office and after 16 years of Republican governorships, the case for the drastic step of a recall does not even come close. And, by the way, I really do not like Gray Davis, but I like the demogogues behind the recall even less.

Ben: From the August 5, 2003, Sacramento Bee:
"Moody's lowered California's bond rating a notch to a worst-in-the-nation "A3," or four notches above junk bond status. It had been "A2," tied with New York and Louisiana."

I stated in my post "I thought that New York's and Louisiana's bond ratings were as bad as California's but my info may be out of date. What info are you relying on? " I acknowledged that my info might have been out of date; I since learned it was by about five days. What kind of answer is "this is black and white and you are 100% wrong"?

As to your statement "quit your/their constant bitching about school administrations and they trying to make the teachers more responsibile for the quality of education od their students" looks like you are losing it big time. It's not hard to win imaginary arguments with yourself; I never said in my posts or anywhere else anything that even relates to your mischaracterization of my views.

As to a teacher who has been working for 25 years and now makes $75,000 a year in San Diego, that doesn't go very far in San Diego; that is a pretty meager salary in San Diego (which has a very high cost of living from what I understand) for a professional.

By the time I had finished my response to Laguy; I see there have been three other posts. Sorry. but I am a slow typist.

Thank you Batster for making your points much better than I was able to do.

Incidently as you read my report you will see I don't blame it all on Gray Davis, but he and yes a Democratic legislature just can stop spending money.

What about the other German?

What does anyone think of Peter Ueberroth as Gov.? The guy is really brilliant and seems to be able to bring diverse groups together. He was able to actually make a profit on the 1984 Olympics. A profit had never been made before the 1984 Olympics and Time Magazine made him their "Man Of The Year".

This recall stuff is a big mistake, I think. It sets a bad precedent here in CA and elsewhere. A gubernatorial or presidential election every 4 years is sufficient.

As far as alternative candidates go, Peter Ueberroth is probably going to get my vote.

I worked for him in '84 during the LA Olympics and found him to be a pretty sane, solid leader in the midst of utter craziness. Despite all sorts of dire predictions about security lapses, terrorism, cost overruns, traffic logistics, etc., he pulled the event off without a hitch, and he turned a profit. (LA '84 was the first privately sponsored Olympics, and Ueberroth was a primary architect of this)

After leading the organization of 1984 Summer Olympics in LA (becoming 1984 Time Man of the Year), he was the MLB commissioner from 1984-89, and then headed Rebuild Los Angeles for one year after 1992 riots. He has a reputation for integrity and, as baseball commissioner, he was known for not being in the back pocket of the owners.

All you status quo cats can probably appreciate his roots in conservative business practices and management. Last I heard, he was on the doard of directors of BofA, Coca-Cola, and Hilton Hotels.

Assuming he survives the present and unfortunate Arnie infatuation issue, I wouldn't be surprised if he lines up some big $ and supporters to make a run at this.

Ben -- LOL. There I was, taking my sweet time typing in my post and eating my grape nuts... only to find that you already posted about the dude. Looks like he'll get at least 2 votes.

Great minds think alike.

I stated in my post "I thought that New York's and Louisiana's bond ratings were as bad as California's but my info may be out of date. What info are you relying on? " I acknowledged that my info might have been out of date; I since learned it was by about five days. What kind of answer is "this is black and white and you are 100% wrong"?

The answer is/was you are wrong as CA has the lowest rating in the United States. No other state has a rating so low. You are wrong and it is black and white. If you want to say they USE to have the lowest rating and were tied with two other states for fiscal irresponsibility I will not argue the point.


More importantly, why are we so poorly rated? Will lets see, I guess if you are going to have as much as a 35 billion shortfall over the next year and your citizens are about taxed out, maybe these rating services think our government is pretty mismanaged?

As to your statement "quit your/their constant bitching about school administrations and they trying to make the teachers more responsible for the quality of education od their students" looks like you are losing it big time. It's not hard to win imaginary arguments with yourself; I never said in my posts or anywhere else anything that even relates to your mischaracterization of my views.

The point I guess I didn't really make clear is that you ask me the question about a suggestion to solve the education problems and I answered "Accountability". I also just figured you were a schoolteacher or some other type of public employee when I included you personally in my statement as to how to solve the problem. Why is the statement untrue regarding part of the problem is schoolteachers are constantly fighting with school administrators as to accountability? It is pretty much common knowledge.

I apologize for thinking you were a teacher.

But forget about the teacher thing. I will just say you are right that I created an imaginary argument.

The main point is our education system is ranked one of the lowest in the U.S. and teachers are some of the highest compensated.

"As to a teacher who has been working for 25 years and now makes $75,000 a year in San Diego, that doesn't go very far in San Diego; that is a pretty meager salary in San Diego (which has a very high cost of living from what I understand) for a professional.

What? A person who goes to school for five years to get their bachelors degree in education and works 8-9 months a year as a gym teacher is under paid at $75,000? Not to mention that when she retires she would need to have put away a couple of million in investments just to fund her retirement. Oh and don't forget her health care is covered/paid for until she reaches 65.

Man, you are a true Democrat/liberal.

How much do you feel she should be getting paid?

OMG,

Here I am agreeing with a University of California, Berkeley alum who is known for associating with communist.

I may get black listed from my country club.

Ben, $75,000 per year (even per 9-month year) for a college graduate who has been working for 25 years just does not sound excessive to me, particularly in an area that has a high cost of living. Incidentally, as of two years ago, the average starting salary in San Diego for public school teachers was less than $33,000/year according to statistics available on the web. In Los Angeles, which had the highest salaries in California, it was about $35,000/year. Maybe you will come up with some statistics showing that under Gray Davis, these salaries have skyrocketed the last two years, but I doubt it.
As to what salaries should be paid, I don't have any precise opinions about that. I, however, am not outraged (as you apparently are) by the salaries the teachers are currently getting.

Bullwinkle says: "This recall stuff is a big mistake, I think. It sets a bad precedent here in CA and elsewhere."

That's a horseshit statement. Precedent has nothing to do with it - this recall is being conducted pursuant to the California Constitution.

I'd love to hear your reasoning as to how a recall conducted within the State of California pursuant to the California Constitution sets a binding precedent elsewhere.

Here is what the California Constitution has to say on this topic, by the way:

CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
ARTICLE 2 VOTING, INITIATIVE AND REFERENDUM, AND RECALL

SEC. 14. (a) Recall of a state officer is initiated by delivering to the Secretary of State a petition alleging reason for recall. Sufficiency of reason is not reviewable. Proponents have 160 days to file signed petitions.

(b) A petition to recall a statewide officer must be signed by electors equal in number to 12 percent of the last vote for the office, with signatures from each of 5 counties equal in number to 1 percent of the last vote for the office in the county. Signatures to recall Senators, members of the Assembly, members of the Board of
Equalization, and judges of courts of appeal and trial courts must equal in number 20 percent of the last vote for the office.

(c) The Secretary of State shall maintain a continuous count of the signatures certified to that office.

75,000 divided by nine months (which includes almost a month of vacation/holidays and three other months of free time equates to over $9,000 per month.

Now I don't know how much the other benefits like health insurance and retirement benefits cost but lets just say a lot of money over thirty years.

I do know the state has to guarantee the retirement salaries plus cost of living increases for these teachers and I would guess that alone has to be funded by at least a million or two million dollars.

Yeah, that is too much money for what they do for a living, when you compare them with the rest of the work force.

Since you have ignored most of the points about over spending by this state government, I am guessing you just really don't understand the problem???

I would guess you have never run your own business where there is complete accountability.

Perhaps you and your "Democratic Friends" have a better solution like tripling our license plate fee/tax and raising personal income tax on the higher income people who are already fleeing this state. Oh I forgot, you have already tripled the license plate fee.

Ben,
>>Since you have ignored most of the points about over spending by this state government, I am guessing you just really don't understand the problem???<<

WRONG, and STUPID. Nor should you assume that a failure to respond to any more of your messages here reflects anything other than boredom with your posts.

>>I would guess you have never run your own business where there is complete accountability>>,

WRONG AGAIN, and you can bet that in running my business I am financially much more successful than the San Diego 25-year veteran teacher you apparently are so jealous of.

A real example of a California teacher.

One of my clients spent 35 years as a Calif. teacher and finally got his salary up to $72000 this last year. Two years ago, under the Davis administration, funding to schools was significantly increased. That's why teachers should support Davis, but they won't because most teachers have no idea about where the money they get paid comes from or how it is split up. Most are in that school marm type mode of just wanting to help their kids. Do you think the clients (students) the teachers teach and encourage to become business men and women and highly paid professionals will remember how the education system may have helped them get to the positions they hold today?

The district he worked for gave an 8 percent pay increase primarily to retain teachers and attract better ones into the public sector. He started in 1968 at $6800 per year. The guy has 8 percent of his salary taken out to be put in the state teacher retirement system. The school district matches that amount. He doesn't get social security.

For the last 22 years he has been a part time tax consultant after school for the months of Feb. and March to make ends meet in San Diego. This guy may be the exception of the teachers I know who get a good second job, as most have to put out 2 or 3 grand a year on continuing education just to keep their teaching license.

The problem with the teaching job is even though it is 8 to 9 months work a year, the bankers want the mortgage payments for 12 months a year, and without his teacher union support fighting for better wages and benefits, he probably would not have remained in the classroom.

Wisely for him, he used what little he could save ($5000) down,and bought a house in San Diego in 1972 for $32000. He just sold that house for $375,000. It wasn't the teaching salary he earned that got him to an good position in to be able to live in San Diego. It was timing and luck.

Finally, this year he took early retirement from teaching and started working full time tax consulting. Will he increase the gross to $132,000 a year? No, taxes are prepared only in the first quarter of the year. The stange thing about the teacher pension is that he brings home $200 more per month retired than he did when he taught.

Now that he has worked the system as best he could, he is for the recall of Davis in order to cut taxes and government expenditures, the likes that Davis and the Democrats gave the teachers. Will he be a loyal Democrat because he owes them? No!! He is a Tom McClintock supporter, but he thinks the public is too uninformed to vote for him, and Arnold will be in charge of the schools and the state. Well, not really, when will the public remove the Democratic legistators? Arnold is so soft on his public statements about the kids and schools, if he gets in as governor, there will be little change for the teachers. Whatever, he doesn't think he even gets to vote for this recall because he is going to be in Mexico mongering during the election. Will they have absentee ballots?

Nyarit,

No doubt we do not give enough respect to teachers in our society. And granted the pay is not the highest in the market. But its not bad either. I dont know, but I bet school teacher salaries fall in the median. And you have to admit the benefits are pretty good compared to most of the private sector. And Let me say that the pension and retirement system beats the hell out of what most the private sector has.

Having said that, should teachers get paid more? Probabaly, it takes alot to put up with shithead kids and their even bigger shithead parents. But I think Ben is maybe right that we need to expect more in performance. Not all teachers are as conscientious as your freind and others of his generation.

I bet your freind is damn glad to be retired.

Batsterthenoneducator

Your freind sounds alot like somebody I know

"WRONG, and STUPID. Nor should you assume that a failure to respond to any more of your messages here reflects anything other than boredom with your posts."

I have been called many things but usually not "stupid". It seems Democrats when refuted with undusputable truth either turn off their computer or just start throwing out insults and say I am noy going to talk to you anymore.

I am surprised that you are a business person, but congratulations for being so sucessful. I must admit you don't sound stupid, just liberal.

Jealous is the wrong word in describing how I feel about this teacher receiving $75,000 a year and if that is what you understood me to be saying in my posts, you clearly do not comprehend what you read.

I am sorry you are so bored that you can't continue with this discussion. Like I said the facts are difficult to refute.

Incidently, I have no problems with teachers, just bad teachers.

To LAGuy & Ben:
You guys are both bright, informative and entertaining ... thanks for the great flame and let the venom continue! There are good flames and there are bad flames but this is a great flame!
Here's something for you guys to dote on.
Besides blaming the Democratic controlled state legislative machinery and the Republican controlled federal policies that have had a ripple effect on California ... how much of this fiscal mess (in your opinion) is attributable to the ordinary voting California citizen?
You know, we get propositions/initiatives on every election ballot asking the voters if they will approve a bond issue to finance things like ... sewer system improvements, water treatment betterments, retrofitting (against earthquakes) on government buildings & key highway overpasses, school spending matters, police officer widows, etc.
Of course all of them sound noble. But now nobody wants to pay for them. But the state's politicians are stuck with expenditures that the voters have obligated the politicians to contract for. It seems some of this blame is not attributable to the doorstep of Gray Davis or Pete Wilson or George Dukmejian (remember him?) but rather the hypocritical electorate should stand up and take a bow. Maybe?
Voters seem quick to approve spending and slow to pay.
Which leads to my next topic.
Since much of the state budget is either contractually defined long ago (bond service debt associated with approved propositions/initiatives) or involves items not negotiable, including welfare and essential state employee salaries ... what could any politician (including Ahn-nold) do to trim spending?
Arnold talks of his fondness for children. The state's motto is ... "children are the state's highest priority". I wonder if Ahn-nold is willing to admit that school spending on young children may be on the table as an area where cuts might be made.
Ironically, Kendricks has already been more specific as to what he would do as Governor than has Ahn-nold. Geesh!

Kendricks cannot be elected.

He has a dark side that needs to be kept a secret. Will at least a secret to all non-ClubHombre members.

Arnold talks of his fondness for children. The state's motto is ... "children are the state's highest priority". I wonder if Ahn-nold is willing to admit that school spending on young children may be on the table as an area where cuts might be made.

Having seen the movie, "Kindergarten Cop," I could never support Arnold. I wanted to vomit, and it nearly prevented me from viewing Terminator 2, which was well worth the price of admission. Part of K.Cop was cutesie kiddie stuff that makes '50s TV shows look like reality TV, and part of it was "lets blast the bad guys to save the kiddies" moralistic crap. The flick where Arnold got pregnant (filmed at UC Berkeley) had somewhat more redeeming social value, but doesn't bode particularly well for his upcoming role as a child advocate.

Kendricks, I'm afraid you've missed the point of my post. There's no doubt about recent developments being constitutional, etc.
The issue is that the recall is very simply a coup d'etat by deviously motivated individuals exploiting poorly designed and thought through democratic tools. Republicans have decided that they are no longer willing to just sit back and accept electoral defeats...e.g. impeaching Clinton for lying about getting his knob polished (hmmm...wonder what would have happened to Clinton had he openly lied about top secret intelligence that would be used to justify a major war effort?), the Florida debacle, and now this recall. When you've got as much democracy as we do and so few people who give a crap and pay close attention to what is going on, even democracy can be bent into tyranny.

Bull_winkle_who_would_never_plagiarize_erip

Rodney,

For starts they can keep pay raises for state employees capped at inflation. Check out the huge raise that Davis gave the prison guards last year( of course they were huge supporters). When things are tight in the private sector thgere are no raises. And when things get really tight there are lay off. Thats what happens.

Then you could peg hiring for new employees at the rate of population growth(growth in the government should not exceed population growth). I understand Davis put a hiring freeze in effect a couple of years ago and something like 30,000 people have been hired since then.

Cap increases in departamental spending to inflation + population growth. Historically, even in times of slow growth, the increase in revenue has outpaced the increase in inflation/population.

Someone needs to beat down the government employee unions so that departments can be restructured to operate efficiently. Unions are necessary, more so in developing economies than in developed ones, but in government they have too much power and impede efficiency in state operations.

And, even though saying this will open me up to attacks branding me an immigrant basher, California seriously needs to consider cracking down on healthcare expense for illegal aliens.
(Sidenote: anyone who knows my personal situation can vouch that I prefer the company of immigrants, illegal or otherwise, to dorky white guys, but that does not mean I approve of taxpayers picking up their healthcare tab).

And finally, Sacramento needs to get get serious about making the state business freindly, thus stopping business flight and starting to really grow the economy again, therefore creating more revenues. California has long been damn near a socialist republic, but over the last 5-6 years it has gotten really bad.

I reently saw in a study in Inc or Fortune that had California ranked near last as a good environment for business. Funny, I remember only like 6-7 years ago it was ranked right up near the top. I wonder what changed?

Oh right, It was Bushes fault. Bastard. First he stole an election, created the energy crisis, then fucked up the environment, singlehandedly put the economy into recession, plotted 9/11, got us into a quagmire in the middle east over oil, created the homeless problem, and made cats and dogs live together. What will he do next?

Batster

'Scuse me if someone already posted this:
On the news today, they were saying it is estimated it will cost >$60million to do this recall thing. Anybody else hear that?

My take, as an outsider and Left-winger:

It's just yet another loophole by which the will of the electorate will be transgressed by Republicans, the legally mandated result of the election will be rewritten despite law. To restate: they're cheating again. Even if they aren't, it sure looks like they don't really respect the voters, and every time they don't get their way they LIE CHEAT STEAL so that they can BUY THE ELECTION or FAKE A RESULT. Texas redistricting, Florida 2000, now California governor.

Sure, Gray Davis' recent performance (less than a year!) might be a good reason, but not a democratic one on the basis of ELECTORAL PRACTICE, and it flies right in the face of the concept of having a voting electorate in the first place.

And what about the concept that less than 10% of the state's budget is discretionary AT ALL, much less up to the legislature not the governor? It's mostly set in stone legally, isn't it? Nobody want to argue that point?

I think the whole damn thing is malarkey. Anyone want to try to defend Teapot Dome, while you're at it?

Slicey,

I heard a week ago or when ever it was, about a day after the CA courts threw out Davis's efforts to try and have the recall found illegal, that the cost was estimated at $63 million. So I guess your numbers are pretty much correct, but probably conservative. This is another reason we don't need this special election.

Bullwinkle,

You are a swell kind of moose. But you also sound like you are reading from Terry McCauliffes talking points.

"Openly lie about secret intelligence" Although the dems tried to make that one stick, they couldn't because its a huge stretch of the factual record. Bush has fucked up some things, but this is not one of them.

Clinton was a mongers kind of president, but the impeachment( also a bad idea in my book) was never about the "hummer" it was about perjury. Perjury is against the law. And for the record, there are military officers who were shitcanned during the 90's for lying about sexual relations. And there are civillians who actually did jail time in the 90's for perjuring themselves about sexual relations. Why should Clinton be treated any different. I thought impeachment was a bad idea, but Clinton is lucky that he only lost his license to practice law for 5 years. And Jesus does he have poor taste in women.

It always amazes me how we defend inncorrect behavior in guys who we deem to be on "our side" of the issues. Clinton did some good things and he did some bad things. Bush has done some good things and some bad things( his out of control spending for example is really going to get us into California type trouble). I dont know why partisans can not call a spade a spade and realize their guy can fuck up as well as do well. IMHO Davis has been a real fuckup. Is the recall a good idea? I dont think so. But its legal, its constitutional, and its a whole lot of entertainment.

Batster

Yeah Bull_Winkle,

You fuckin communist.

Oh and while I am at it I have your answer regarding the Molina Rojo.

Back in the thirties there were two racetracks in Tijuana. One is the existing racetrack "Aqua Caliente" and the other was a track near the Tijuana river that was wiped out by a flood and an avalanche of horse shit (I am Not kidding) according to the book "Sea Biscuit".

If you use a little common sense (hard for a Berkley graduate to do) and in reading you went up a hill from a race track near the river it is very likely that the MJ that a few of us know about from thirty years ago is more than likely the same place as referred to in the book.

Now I sort of know what it feels like to sleep in a house where George Washington slept.

Batster:

Thanks for answering "my" post. (the one I admired and then plagiarized from Erip).

Or perhaps I should say, "I did not plagiarize Erip and I did not have sex with that woman."

It always amazes me how we defend inncorrect behavior in guys who we deem to be on "our side" of the issues.

Huh? Moi? I'm not sure that the Republicans or the Democrats are on "my" side of the issues.

Ben -- Regarding Molino Rojo... WRONG, STUPID, and WRONG AGAIN. Saying "it is very likely" that it is the same place doesn't tell me anything. It doesn't get us any closer to an actual confirmation that the two places are one and the same. There's a 20 or 30+ year gap between the older and newer Molino Rojos and we need actual evidence. Are all Republicans this fast and loose with facts?

Now that Bob Hope died, we may never be able to find out. We need to consult somebody really, really, really old who can verify the link between the old and the "new" Molino Rojo.