I read a message today in the Dominican Republic section about a resort being forced to shut down due to changes in laws in the country. These changes were brought about by political pressure from the US.

Now this doesn't seem that big a deal as an isolated incident, but then I thought about things that have happened in other countries during the current administrations reign. I've read of an increasing number and aggressiveness of Immigration raids in Costa Rica. Crackdowns have been taking place in Cambodia, Philippines, and Thailand. Bars were shut down in Tijuana, Mexico (most reopened). Are these isolated incidents or is a root cause an administration that wants to enforce a higher standard of morality (as defined by the administration).

I'd love to hear any comments on this issue, especially anyone that has inside knowledge on any of the above mentioned places or other incidents in other countries.

I posted the following in the Mexico Chat section:

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quote:

Political Pressure on Tijuana?

I know there has long been talk of Tijuana doing away with the Zona playground, and we've mostly dismissed it as just talk and little action, but is there a chance that the political pressure being exerted on foreign goverments is stronger than we realize? What about the chances of it being indirect rather than direct? Instead of our government asking for the doing away of prostitution, they target reconstruction projects in the Zona while calling for stricter enforcement of existing laws and new laws to make opening up establishments more difficult. (How about all the massage parlor crackdowns?)

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I posted the following in the Central America Chat section:

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quote:

Political Pressure on Prostitution in CR and DR?

The immigration raids seem to have been raised to a whole new level, with foreign visitors being including in the roundups when not carrying their original passport, and even some with so they could "verify the authenticity". I've read about guys being placed in cells for many hours until the police finally got around to escorting the guys one by one to their hotels to get the passport. Someone also posted about a guard making a comment about a concentrated attempt to put the Del Rey out of business. Also a very recent post mentioned what sounded like a raid on New Fantasy. (The article quoted just mentioned massage parlor, can anyone confirm if it was New Fantasy?)

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I posted the following in the Asia Chat section:

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quote:

Political Pressure on Prostitution in Asia?

We seem to have gotten used to the Thailand bar closures, but are they more common now and more serious due to political pressure from the US? Svay Pak in Cambodia apparently is nothing like it once was and is far underground. Now we also have a bunch of bars closed down in the Philippines and some discussion of the government wanting to do a lot more. Is all of this related and does it originate from our government taking action on immorality?

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I would be a mistake to blame Ashcroft or the current administration alone. The left wing NGO, women's rights activists are just as big a threat. In fact maybe it is an unholy alliance between the activist left wing political correctness police and the right wing bible thumpers that is causing trouble. Throw in some nationalism here and there and a little good ol' government corruption, and you have crackdowns. It is the NGO's that are my greatest concern though, and in general the leftists tend to be more activist.

BTW, I do find the recent street improvements in Tijuana and the possible more serious talk about the new border bridge to be of some concern and there have been a couple of bars temporary closed down as well.

But in the end, it is the worlds oldest profession after all. The business adapts itself to change. It has since the beginning of mankind.

"The business adapts itself to change."

Let's hope so. Brothels used to abound in the United States, both in the wild west and east coast cities. They're all but gone now, perhaps thanks to narrow minded Protestant extremists like Ashcroft. I imagine the same is true in Canada, England and countless other countries.

The cleaning up of Zona Norte is dangerous to our hobby. I bet AB and CC will survive for quite a while because they are relatively clean, well policed establishments. An interior passage to the hotels may be a good idea to keep the action off hte street. It may be tho that the more seedy joints and SGs are in jeopardy.

On another note, AB management may be their own worst enemy. I understand the ficha quota is up to 20 drinks a day and the management is making the girls pay if they don't meet the quota. I know a couple chicas who are really pissed off and are looking for a way out. Anybody else heard these stories?

I think there are many factors that contribute to what seems to be a developing trend. Some are local and others maybe not. On the local front, although I haven't seen many on this board who seem to agree, the very public scandal involving a major massage parlor owner in Thailand who is accusing the police of taking massive bribes has given the crusaders another opening. This, along with Bush's upcoming visit to Thailand have hurt things and resulted in another crackdown. I am less convinced than others that it will all go away after the Bush visit.

In Brazil, the new leftist President, Lula, has initiated a crackdown on child prostitution. No problem there, EXCEPT, to the extent it provides a pretense to attack prostitution in general, something that may be happening with the closing of some escort services on the ground they employed under-age garotas (although apparently none were found during the raids that resulted in closing the places). The fact that Rio has a Christian fundamentalist mayor (or so I'm told) doesn't help.

Hate to say it, but another factor is the spread of information over the internet and news organizations that owing to new technology can more easily cover the globe. I remember when I "discovered" the Tijuana scene fifteen years ago; I had no help, or very little, negotiating the scene from publicly available sources. It was not something that someone could discover in a few seconds of internet surfing. The general spread of information creates a cottage industry for NGO's, religious fanatics, etc. with an anti-prostitution agenda.

By the way, I am fairly certain I remember one of those right-wing heros, Bill O'Reilly, doing some exagerated hit pieces on prostitution in Thailand and Japan, while he was working as a tabloid journalist for Inside Edition. Oh, the horror! Unfortunately, that type of reporting has hit the mainstream.

I don't doubt that current U.S. values also contribute to the problem, although the U.S. pretty much has always had a strong puritanical (as opposed to the preferred puta-tanical) streak. In the U.S. that, however, has often been accompanied by an "out of sight, out of mind" mentality, but as noted above, a whole lot of stuff is no longer out of sight.

What I don't know is the extent to which promises of foreign aid are being accompanied by conditions that relate to prostitution, etc. We do know the Bush administration's agenda is to condition certain types of aid on foreign country's abortion polices, which is not a far cry from doing the same for prostitution, either officially or out of view and behind the scenes, If anyone has information on this one way or the other, it would be of interest.

(Message edited by LAguy on August 23, 2003)

In earlier political threads I noted the vocalness of the left-wing but also pointed out their ineffectiveness. The big difference I see now is an administration that is big on "good vs evil" and is more willing to go after morality in the bedroom. The Patriot Act is particularly dangerous to us, but that's a whole other huge topic itself.

I think Ldvee brings up some good examples that the adaptation may not be that effective. You still have prostitution in the US, but the prices are ridiculous.

What's really disturbing is if you see more of the things like tourists being thrown in jail during immigration raids. You should look up one of those stories. Imagine the teenagers with rifles storming AB and asking for your passport. Since you can't provide it, they drag you off to a holding cell where you have to wait a few hours until they decide to let you go or you can prove that you are not in Mexico illegally. I doubt that this ever would (or could) happen in Tijuana, but then again I'm sure the Costa Rica regulars used to think the Del Rey was untouchable.

AB Management sucks ass.

Guys... you have to take a couple of points seriously first.
I've around for 20 years doing my rounds in Monterrey Mexico and never as in the old days are all the clubs and bars where girls go, openly advertise everywhere.
Not to mention, on the Internet.
This is supposed to be hush-hush stuff, society is not prepared to open their arms to prostitution.
I think that is why the resort in CR was shut down (realy, if it is the one I am thinking of... that one sounded something short as placing the girls as furniture in the hotel).
You must also consider that people are NOT going to openly defend prostitution.
You have to remeber that in Latin America it is illegal... Mexico too. I pointed that our once on the Mexico Board.
Tijuana as in the state of Baja California, just had elections. Bars, lap dancing clubs and whorehouses are always used as scapegoats here. They get the short end of the stick, but as someone else posted, they opened again.
Believe me: it goes with the times.
All the bars and joints are getting it, because they have becomed too public. Society is trying to beat them on the head and place them where they belong.

Good point on the abortion thing, I had forgotten about that, perhaps because it annoyed me so much and seemed so wrong to refuse aid to health organizations if they provided any kind of information or services regarding abortion. I would not be surprised at all if they tried to do the same with prostitution.

I think that that report on Viking in the DR was a false flag. I called them "Viking" and was told that they were NOT shut down.

A few points. One, there are still plenty of brothels, private houses, escorts and good-old streetwalkers in the US. Probably more than ever. It's just gotten either very expensive or very nasty, take your pick. Two, hooking is not illegal in Canada, Britain and most of Europe. Pimping is, and street walking is, but escorting generally isn't and private houses, while technically illegal, never seem to have problems.

As far as the place in the DR, wasn't it on the list of 10 top destinations for single men? That was from the post in the South America chat section just in the past week.

"One, there are still plenty of brothels, private houses, escorts and good-old streetwalkers in the US. Probably more than ever."

I don't think that's true. Go back to 1850s or so. Brothels were everywhere.

Here's some history from Buffalo NY.

http://www.buffalonian.com/history/articles/1851-1900/RappPortofBuffalo.html

The term "hooker" came from a General Hooker that kept Washington DC chock full of whores during, I think, the Revolutionary war. Maybe the Civil War, I'm not sure.

Remember Miss Kitty and the Longbranch saloon?

No, prostitution was much more prevalent and accepted in the past.

I have pointed out several times on posts on the Nogales section that there is an ongoing, active, pervasive effort by the current U.S. Administration to put pressure the local, state and federale government in Mexico to crackdown on what the U.S. considers undesirable elements in US/Mexican border cities.

These elements, of course, include the drug trade, but as this thread points out, the sex trade as well. This has nothing to do with improving the lives of the citizens along the borders, but everything to do with how the conservative puritanical ethos of the current administration, attempts to put its stamp on mexican society and culture.

According to several government contacts I have in Nogales and Sonora,Mx., the US administration has made no bones that it considers the "zona tolerencias" that exist in most border towns, high on the list it considers of thing to be abated.

This has gone so far as the threatened holdup of promised and contracted aide to border towns, including the withholding of water for Nogales.

This has been an ongoing battle among the Mexican government and the Bush Administration since day one.

The fact that the administration has one of the most puritanical and social conservative attorney generals since the civil war, you then have the perfect conduit for an attempted hijacking of mexican culture by the American right.

Mexico has, much to their credit, resisted any real change, and have given mostly lip service. An occasional ordinance to forbid streetwalking, or outlaw privados are just a few of the many announced changes. These as most know have very little effect because they are not backed up by any enforcement , mainly because most police forces lack money to really enforce these regulations. This has pretty muched pissed off Darth Ashcroft who sometimes forget that Mexico is actually another country, and not another US state.

There are currently several aide packages being considered by the Bush administration to aide border communities in wake of the current economic (and social) crises brought on by the administration's terrible economic policies, that have, not only hit the US pocketbook, but those who live across the border and are dependent on the US economy.

Almost all these packages have strings attached as to how they will be administered, with more priority and more money going to those border communities who gladly bend over, swallow their pride, and take it, to recieve monies given out to those who show the most aggressive campaigns to abate these terrible nuisances.

I am not alone in thinking that by the time these monies get funded and are likely dispersed, we will, have another President and AG.

OG

Here are two articles that are kind of related. God it infuriates me how the words sex and travel are always associated with child prostitution. The yellow journalists ALWAYS spin stories about sex travel this way. Here is one example.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/travel/dailynews/childsextourism000824.html

Sex Travel is NOT about child prostitution. It is about adults traveling and seeking sex with other like-minded and consenting adults.

Here is a story about a femi-nazi group that could not get the state DA to file criminal charges against a sex tour operator, so they got them to file a civil suit instead.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/abs_news_flash_article.asp?FlashOID=10927

I don't think there's much chance of our "no sex outside of marriage" current administration doing anything radical prior to the November 2004 elections.
If George Dubya gets re-elected ... then you can start to sweat!

I wouldn't be surprised in the least that the Bush administration is putting pressure on other countries with "known" mongering destinations, especially through threats of foreign aid. Like it has been pointed out, Republican administrations have been doing this for years in relation to the abortion issue. That trend began with the Reagan administration.

Whether this is the case, I have some doubts. In regards to the Asian countries, it could very well be coincidence that some things are happening simultaneously. To note:

Philippines: People forget a few things about the PI. One, it's a very Catholic country, and church morals shape a lot of opinions there. Prositution tends to get frowned upon, and yes, attacked.

Two, there has been a quasi-nationalist movement underway for quite some time. The most obvious manifestation was the Philippine senate voting to oust the US military out of Subic and Clark, freeing the country of "colonialism." Nationalism frequently expresses itself through xenophobia.

Given that mayoral elections are underway in AC, it is not a surprise to see both elements rear their head. This isn't the first time this has happened in the PI. Other cities got their prostitution clamped down on when a new mayor got elected as well, long before the current Bush administration was in office.

Cambodia: KM11 has been under assault for years. Certain NGO's have been targeting it in campaigns for a long time now, as a center for child prostitution. Unfortunately, the reality is that they were right. In addition to being a center for legal age prostitution, there was also mixed into the bag a large number of minors.

This fact was well-documented and internationally known. It's very well possible that the European Union was putting pressure on the Hun Sen government to shut it down. If nothing else, the NGO campaigns were going on before Bush became president.

Personally, I feel it was only a matter of time before the Cambodian government decided that enough was enough and closed it down for good. The last I heard, there was no general attack on prostitution in general in Cambodia, just on KM11.

Thailand: There's a possibility that several things are happening simultaneously, brewing the "perfect storm" for one of the most severe shocks the sex industry has ever experienced there. First, of course, is the upcoming APEC meeting. This is a huge event, as it involves the leaders of the countries (22 members?) that circle the Pacific Ocean. Given that this includes the US, Canada, Japan, China, and Australia, the event has global importance.

This means HUGE media attention. Bangkok will get flooded with reporters from around the globe. Inevitably, these reporters will know about Bangkok's reputation, and since we all know that sex and titillation sells papers, the sex industry WILL get reported on. Given how media/image sensitive the Thaksin administration is, it comes as no surprise that they would try to tame the scene until the media has cleared out of Dodge.

However, that's not all. Combine this with the continually unfolding scandal in the MP industry over the owner of the Davis group chain of soapies and his battle with the police and tax authorities. This conflagration has been making huge headlines in the local press, and has the police under a microscope.

Add into the mix the fact that the current interior minister, which oversees the police, among other things, is a puritanical Thai muslim, much like his predecessor Purachai was. This brings in a religious motivation, as he believes in a "clean" society. They have already been conducting "social order" campaigns for a couple of years now, to varying effect. Combine the three elements together, and it's not a surprise to see that people are running scared at the moment in Thailand.

Personally, I don't think the evil axis of Bush, Cheney and Ashcroft have much to do with what's going on in Asia (I will make no attempt at deciphering Latin America). Most likely, each country is experiencing something unique. It's also important to point out that that we haven't heard about any crackdowns in Singapore, Japan, Macau, China, Hong Kong or Taiwan, all places in Asia with huge and visible sex industries.

The most intelligent (and foreboding) comment I've seen in this thread is the following by I-am-sancho:

"In fact maybe it is an unholy alliance between the activist left wing political correctness police and the right wing bible thumpers that is causing trouble."

I have to agree. Both those groups listed are "fundamentalists" in the sense that they're very bad at brooking dissent, diversity, or a sense that anyone other than themselves could possibly have a valid way of life. It's the "be like me" movement all over again. You could describe it as the rise of Americanist conformity, just to coin a term.

I'd call it anti-intellectuality, at least that's what is at its root cause. A limited mind thinking it's not quite so limited; a dumb person acting smart; a half-wit embarrassed about being found out to be half-empty, trying to act all-full. Help us ...

(Message edited by book_guy on August 24, 2003)

Read the news story below. This is just a sample from the BKK Post but I am sure you, like myself, have seen hundreds of similar news stories. I think this kind of publicity is much of our problem as well as the political pressure groups like the one mentioned and their partners in the media bring to bear on local politicians who otherwise don't give a shit.

Read the story below then notice the elements of this story. They are typical of most of the stories you see on prostitution in Asia.

A)Pure Left wing media propaganda so skewed towards the left wing feminist viewpoint it has little relevance to reality. Sure the facts are mostly correct but the propagandistic media writing style skews the meaning. Notice how after a scathing hit piece on the horrors of "trafficking of women" only in the very last line of the story is it mentioned "many Uzbek women came to Thailand voluntarily."

B) It is the "Foundation for Women" who is apparently on the ground in an activist role in Thailand. Bible Thumpers typically take the missionary role in places like Thailand. Healing peoples souls and crap like that. They generally don't tend to be aggressive political activists the same way the liberal pressure groups. Go to http://www.foundationforwomen.org/ and see your enemy. For you liberal types. The enemy is you. Clinton appointed hundred of these types of women to various roles where they make a major impact on policy at all levels. That's what pissed me off about Clinton. That piece of shit is sitting in his office getting his dick sucked while at the same time appointing hundreds of these militant feminist types to everyplace he can think of to make sure that I do not get my dick sucked.


The story (just a typical example of any of 1000 stories you can read about prostitution)


Trafficking of Uzbeks causes worry


Most come in search of work as prostitutes


Anjira Assavanonda


Women's groups yesterday raised concern over a sharp increase in the number of Uzbek women brought into Thailand for prostitution by human trafficking networks.


The Foundation for Women, which recently conducted a study on female migrants from Uzbekistan, said their number here has grown sharply from 2,595 people in 1999 to 5,017 in 2000.


Last year 228 Uzbek women were arrested and detained by immigration police, it said.


There were a few other countries Uzbek women liked to get into, including Dubai, Bahrain and Malaysia. However, because of stricter immigration procedures in those countries more Uzbek women had come to Thailand.


Immigration police said Uzbek women were largely arrested for illegal entry, overstaying their visas and/or prostitution.


The foundation yesterday presented a report based on interviews with Uzbek women aged between 19-30 who have stayed in Thailand from 10 days to five years.


Varangkana Ratanarat, who prepared the report, said most of the women interviewed were divorced before they came to Thailand.


Their previous jobs in Uzbekistan varied from personal business, to phone operators, discotheque staff and even teachers. Some were students or housewives. Most came from Samarkand and Tashkent, the Uzbek capital.


The influencing factors that caused them to come to Thailand included unemployment, poor income, family problems, job insecurity, encouragement from other women who returned from overseas jobs, and persuasion by sex-trade agents.


``Many women, who were former teachers or accountants, said they used to earn only 440 baht a month in Uzbekistan, which was not enough to raise their children and support their families,'' Ms Varangkana said.


Many also have heard positive information about Thailand, particularly that it was a place where they could make a lot of money.


``Dilya is a divorcee who came to Thailand by arrangement of a local agent who told her Bangkok is a city full of tourists from rich countries, and she would be able to earn as much as US$2000 or 88,000 baht a month,'' Ms Varangkana said.


However, things did not turn out as the women expected.


``Most of the women said once they arrived in Thailand, the agents would take them from the airport to meet a mamasan who would buy them from the agents, and withhold their passports until they could pay off the debts,'' she said.


Without their passports, they were forced to do all kinds of work. Those who came by arrangement of an agent also had to commit themselves to a debt of between $1,500-2,000 each. This made them subject to abuses by employers.


The kinds of work they were forced to do included agogo dancing that usually led them into prostitution.


Some of the women were sent to work in the sex trade upcountry, while others operated in Bangkok from some medium-sized hotels in the Sukhumvit and Pratunam areas. They earned between 1,000-3,000 baht per client. Some even received a monthly pay if they had more than 60 clients a month.


Ms Varangkana said though many Uzbek women came to Thailand voluntarily.




Now......Look at the facts reported in this typical left wing hit piece and contrast them against the tone of the story.

Uzbek women only make the equivalent of 440 baht/month at home so find it desirable to work as prostitutes in Thailand. The horrible men they call "traffickers in humans" loan them the money for plane ticket and make travel arrangements for them for a debt of $1,500-2,000 which is a little steep but is hardly a crime against humanity, no worse than what some sex tour operators charge American men. Also the men making these loans do face a real risk they may not be paid back if the girl gets arrested, deported, whatever. Passport is held as collateral against the loan. These women make1,000-3,000 baht per client plus receive monthly pay if they have more than 60 clients a month. Oh the horror, oh the humanity. 3,000 baht seems pretty good for Bangkok don't you think and if they are doing 60 a month I assume these are ST prices.

I'm not interested in reading that twaddle.

But I'd have to say that, aside from the lunatic feminist side of things, I tend to find the US media to be too RIGHT wing for my preferences. Strange, no? (To calibrate, I should inform you, my politics tend toward the libertarian, but not the Libertarian.)

I would also tend to be Libertarian if they would moderate on a few of their more extreme positions and put forth some viable candidates. I am a Libertarian at heart. I find both the right and the left threatening but I tend to lean right simply on the basis that the left has been much more activist in trying to shove there value system down my throat than has the right. The right is a threat but has not had nearly the level of success in infiltrating every aspect of my life as the political correctness police have. Hell, even on this board, a board devoted to whore mongering of all things, if you step out of the politically correct line, the political correctness police are standing by to try to force there beliefs on you. I don't like bible thumpers but I don't see any of them here and they are not constantly trying to shove there values down my throat as aggressively as the left is. It is like a religion to both groups though. The left are very passionate and activist in trying to impose there beliefs on others. To me personally, if you are left wing, cool with me but don't try to impose it on me. If you believe Jesus is the god of all things and bow down to kiss his feet, cool with me but don't try to impose it on me. As this relates to whore mongering, both the left AND the right are attacking it and if you fail to see that you are blinded by your religion be it Christianity or the "religion of political correctness" As for me I don't really give a crap. I long ago decided it is futile to argue religion with people and I apply this principal equally to the passionate left wingers since they often behave much the same as any religious fanatic.

As for the media, Of course Fox News is right wing propaganda. CNN is left wing propaganda. I read news from various sources and try to sift through it all to find the truth.

It's all a matter of perspective. For example, I conclude by the following statements of yours that you don't live in West Coast Florida and probably do live in California:

"I tend to lean right simply on the basis that the left has been much more activist in trying to shove there value system down my throat than has the right. The right is a threat but has not had nearly the level of success in infiltrating every aspect of my life as the political correctness police have. Hell, even on this board, a board devoted to whore mongering of all things, if you step out of the politically correct line, the political correctness police are standing by to try to force there beliefs on you. I don't like bible thumpers but I don't see any of them here and they are not constantly trying to shove there values down my throat as aggressively as the left is."

Personally, I find the opposite to be true ... that both sides can be guilty of shoving shit down your throat, but that the Right tends to do that much more regularly in my daily life than the Left. Of course, that doesn't mean it isn't happening the other way around in YOUR world.

My personal politics are nowhere near the Libertarian Party's. (And I have to say what I always say about libertarians: if all our citizens were as smart as most of the card-carrying members of the Libertarian Party, then Libertarianism would probably work.) I'm somewhere 'round about the Left Wing of typical European politics. But my "theoretical politics" or my "personal political philosophy" is very libertarian (lower-case "L") in the sense that I believe in personal responsibility, less government control, greater reliance on the common sense of the philosophical social contract articulated in the Western Enlightenment and less on the looopholes and technicalities of codified law. It's a great idea IN THEORY, but I'm well aware that in practice hoo boy!

Where I differ with the American Right, is that (aside from the obvious Bible thumping problems) I don't like the influence of business on political decisions at all. I think economics doesn't work, capitalism is a crock, and we're in a mess of maldistributed resources here in America. Richest country in the world, with some of the world's poorest inhabitants -- what's wrong with this picture?

But I agree with you about the problems of the Left. I think their tactics and positions are entirely inappropriate on things like Political Correctness -- the whole "you can't say that" movement, and the other whole "you can't think that" movement. Those issues, which threaten to stifle debate and install Fascism, are, over the long term, even more insidious than any subtle balancing act between things so similar as slightly-less-laissez-faire or slightly-more-laissez-faire Federal monetary policy, for example.

So, I vote Green or Libertarian when I think it will work, and otherwise Democrat. But my Democrats here aren't like the Democrats in California, trust me! Here, the Dems are the sane ones, not the lunatic fringe! And for national elections, I vote the man, not the party. I worked on John McCain's and Janet Reno's campaigns, for example. Heh, reconcile THAT one ...


(Message edited by book_guy on August 26, 2003)

book_guy, you raise a valid point. I used to live in the Midwest and there were plenty of democrats there I would vote for. Florida is no doubt similar. In California the Democrats are much more aggressive in taking away my rights. Much more so than the Republicans in this state. As for your views on redistribution of wealth I must disagree. In America there is opportunity for all. I personally know refugees who arrived here with nothing, can barely speak English, have terrible money management skills yet they succeed. I also know many other American born Minorities that have the world handed to them with a silver spoon and just bitch and moan that society mistreats them and that is why they are failures when the truth is they don’t even try. But how does distribution of wealth affect mongering since this is after all what this board is all about. I have a theory that short time sex costs roughly the equivalent to a weeks lower end blue collar wages in almost any society and Long Time is equivalent to a months lower end blue collar wages. Thus in the US an escort cost $250 for an hour or so. In Mexico $60, In Thailand $10, In PI $8 and so on and so forth. LT is the same sort of scale give or take. What is cool about the inequitable distribution of wealth is you can travel from your high priced job to an area where there are low priced jobs and you are then of an elite class who can get your dick serviced and you semen extracted for what is only chump change to you but is a weeks wages for the semen extraction specialists. Inequitable distribution of wealth is way cool. And for anyone predicting the end to sex tourism, the only real solution would be for the governments in the countries in question to stop the corruption and raise the standard of living of there citizens to the point that this inequitable distribution of wealth became balanced. I don’t see that happening soon so sex tourism will continue. Viva la inequitable distribution of wealth. BTW the poorest of the poor in America are wealthy compared to most of the people on the planet. Hell, most poor Americans own at least a beat up old car, a TV, a microwave, have food, clothes, ect. Compared to most of the world, our poor are doing pretty good or else we would be fucking our poor girls for $30 a night (which I would not have a problem with).

(Message edited by I_am_Sancho on August 26, 2003)

I gotta agree with just about everything, I-am-Sancho. Especially the little economics lesson about ST and LT costs, and wealth maldistribution across the globe.

The only place I'd differ, is the notion of BUILDING a society on the basis of free-market (or, more accurately, I guess, "competitive") economic practices. The only thing that everyone in the USA has in common, is that we want to screw each other out of a profit and steal as much of the other guy's dough as possible. LOL. That doesn't sound to me like a good unifying influence.

In France, for example, there's this notion of "common history" and a sense of the "Real and True French Way To Do Things." People who win, or lose, the game of making a profit in their country, end up with a unified sense of Frenchness. The same for Germany ("hey, let's go conquer France!") or Russia ("uh oh here come the Western Europeans!") or Thailand or even (perhaps to a lesser extent) "modern" nations like Australia and Taiwan.

Many Americans happen for whatever reason to end up on the wrong end of the economic stick. Some because of the reasons you suggest, minorities (and others) having too much handed to them on a silver platter, to the point that they have no work ethic or sense of consequences, that can reap rewards or punishments depending on which actions they choose. Other people fail because of bad luck, or unfortunate starting circumstances -- plenty lack the basic education to balance a checkbook, for example.

Because we have a system that rewards winners in a roughly zero-sum game (stay with me, here, I'll get back to that Germany France thang soon enuf!) we therefore BY DEFINITION also have a system that punishes some people. If there are winners, there are bound to be losers. And yet, those losers do NOT end up (as they would in Germany or France) still feeling connected to their homeland. They don't say, "Well, that's the way the cookie crumbles, but I still live here and can still do things Real and True Here Way To Do Things." Instead of that, in America, they tend rather to say, "Fuck the system, I want to blow it up, because I didn't succeed and it's rigged against me."

So, to me, the concept of building a society on the basis of internal competition is wacked and stupid. You're guaranteed to have a pissed-off set of people (the ones who didn't win as much as they wanted to) and that set is guaranteed to, most likely, be pissed off AT THE SYSTEM ITSELF. Hence, American self-victimization (at an all-time high), as well as plenty of Americans simply opting out of trying to win at the game. They don't BELIEVE they have a chance -- the only people they've ever met, have also lost at the game.

So, again, to me, the essential problem is a lack of unifying culture. Our winners don't win and contribute to true Americanism (the corporations run to tax shelters in the Caribbean, for example), and our losers don't lose and yet still value the games we play (they reject the game and consequently participation in the country as a whole). We need something "truly American" that is NOT divisive and competitive. So few of these things exist, to the extent that the LOSERS out there actually buy into them.

So, in the long run, I think capitalism as a completely laissez-faire system is doomed to failure, since it breeds internal strife.

Now, on top of that, I'm one of the losers. You didn't guess, did you? I have intellect, skills, dedication, education, great financial savvy, a good distanced view of things (leads to sensible predictions about the future potential of investments), etc. But I have never had OPPORTUNITY to use my skills. That's because they aren't CURRENTLY MARKETABLE. They're not "hot." I'm good at writing, philosophy, teaching, nurturing adolescent sports teams, leading artistic groups like choirs and drama productions. I'm VERY good at some of those things.

In a world where I had opportunity, those skills would go rewarded. But in this world, in order to achieve what level of "value" (a.k.a. remuneration) that I "should" (a.k.a. I think I should) be worth, I must develop a different skill set, and suffer a less fulfilling life. Immigrants who come here AND LIKE THE TYPE OF WORK AMERICA REWARDS are people who do well here, and consider this the land of economic opportunity. Those who don't like that kind of work -- for example, French cheesemakers, who prefer more tradition and time for a pastis at the local cafe, and less cut-throat competition (which might reward the lowering of fromagerie standards, for example) -- don't tend to migrate here. So, we don't meet immigrants who aren't calibrated for Americanism. But we do meet indigenous populations who aren't, because with each new generation it's a crap-shoot as to whether the individuals will prefer French-style cheese-making or American-style tire-making.

Consequently, I'm going to have to disagree with the idea that capitalism provides for opportunity for all. It provides ONLY ECONOMIC opportunity for PARTICULARLY ECONOMICALLY MINDED individuals. Those of us who need to nourish our souls, while also filling our stomachs, find that our stomachs go empty.

Now don't go telling me my "frivolous" interest in something "non-profitable" like leading a choir, is the problem. Sure, I could "choose" a preference that was more profitable, and stop this pie-in-the-sky dreaming about the idea that each and every little dalliance that some faggoty drag queen in Greenwich Village happens to chance upon deserves a multi-million-dollar income. In a world of TRUE OPPORTUNITY, all things which are ethically worth doing, would be allowed for. As it stands, singing (just as an example) has to take second place (fifth place, really) to sitting on your ass and watching numbers on a screen. Just because the number-watching happens to be more profitable, doesn't mean it DESERVES to be, nor does it mean the society which expects that sort of behavior over any other, is necessarily a "right" or "just" society simply because it currently IS more profitable to do this, rather than that.

In the long run, the market might or might not work. It currently works for things like tires and cheese, as long as you like processed American-style Kraft rather than hand-made French-style Brie. If you want to sing, or make French-style Brie, American capitalism doesn't work, even though it's taking over most of the singers and the Brie-makers. And on top of that, it guarantees a sub-set of its own citizenship will be disgruntled, perhaps to the point of rebellion ... bad plan.

I'm sure you understand my point. I don't claim that I know anything about potential replacement theories. I certainly hated my time in more socialist Canada, where the passive-aggressive attitude (and the rampant anti-Americanism) prevented me from having a happy life. I saw the destruction wrought by the former Soviet Bloc on Eastern Europe's infrastructure and environment, so I don't advocate that sort of silly system either. I'm simply pointing out some of the major flaws of the system we currently labor under, and currently are so often exhorted to assume is "best" simply because it's ours. It isn't the best of all possible worlds, Doctor Pangloss; it might even be one of the "least better" options out there. More creative solutions are always possible, and I for one and still looking for them.

It looks as if we finally found a topic everyone on this board agrees on - that prostitution should be legal.

I always suspected that eventually, we could all find some common ground.

How to end human trafficing for prostitution:

Make prostitution legal and give special 2 year visas to pretty 18-22 year old female talents to work as prostitutes.


Same solution how to stop drug trafficing. Make it legal.

I think making either legal would not only resolve some problems, but also "disneyfy" them. Like, clean it up in a squeaky unexciting way. I'm not sure I want mongering to go mainstream ...

After reading most of the posts on this thread i don't understand why these changes are coming about due to pressure from the U.S...I just returned from Australia ,which is to my knowledge very close with the U.S and to my delight found that prostitution is legal there both by brothel and street walking..

Australia is just Nevada with a different accent.

The odd American mixture of Puritanical political leanings, and (excessive, to many) civil libertarian legal leanings, hasn't ever made much sense to me either. But then, I actually have an education, the lack of which never stopped the American electorate or its chosen representatives.

While there is probably a significant portion of women in the Democratic party that consist of anti-prostitution feminazi's, I believe there is a greater number of liberal ones that will defend a woman's right to choose what to do with her body, as is reflected in the general party's stance on abortion and euthanasia. I don't believe there is as big of a divide among the Republican party, which seems to be more thoroughly against allowing these choices.

I don't know if the administration is putting pressure behind the scenes, or if this has always been done but this administration was more successful, I just placed the topic up for discussion about it given the coincidence in timing of these events.

I think Australia would be more insulated from US pressure and that less stable countries would be more likely to cave in, but this is speculation as well.

I'd speculate similarly, that less stable nations in Latin America or along the Pacific Rim would be first to cave to implied American pressures, and hence might re-arrange the official and non-official situations regarding prostitution more quickly. Africa, mainland Asia, and Europe will be I suppose more independent, if that's the right term.

But I'd have to chime in, on the subject of the feminine side of the Democratic party, that prostitution (and to a lesser degree, pornography) has always been an issue that divided feminists. Some laud the power of the sexual all-healing mother and others decry the exploitation.

In a few recent discussions, this dyed-in-the-wool Democrat has been well reminded that it's just as often the Left Wing of American politics, as the Right, that's out to force its opinions down our throats.

I'm trying to find a new name for myself, that will still allow me to claim allegiance to my progenitors the long-time Yaller Dawg Democrat southerners, while also sounding off a bit about Political Correctness. I have a bumper sticker that says I'm "Politically Incorrect," for example. What does that make me? How about just plain "offensive as a dog"? That might fill the bill ...

Most of the less stable nations in Latin America are already "officially" aligned with US policies, but they largely lack the capicity to enforce said policies even if they had the will to do so. So I'm not terribly worried about dickheads like John Ashcroft influencing events in Latin America. And thank goodness Brazil has always been willing to stand up to US bullying tactics, as they did when we threatened them with WTO action and sanctions when they started producing cheap anti-retroviral medicines.

Bookguy-
Puritanism is non-partisan. Dems and Repubes alike are scared shitless of sex, especially women's sexuality, so prostitution sends them over the deep end.

To BookGuy,
Perhaps the phrase "Bill Clinton Democrat" ?
It's a Democrat who ...
* doesn't give a crap about gay rights
* likes his pizza delivered by interns wearing only a skimpy thong
* doesn't believe a blowjob = sex
* is okay with a trailer park whore named Paula
having a one person town hall meeting with the gubenator
* likes DATY (as long as you don't inhale!)
* sympathizes with putas who do anal (I feel your pain, honey)
* prefers boxers to briefs (easier to whip it out)

Haha cute about that Clinton thing. I was initially a big Clinton backer -- thought he had the people-skills to run Washington and perhaps get some of the liberal (but non-PC) agenda into law. But after eight years, what did he accomplish? So, I found him a big disappointment. I still don't think the whole Ken Starr mess was warranted, mind you -- who cares who he fucks?! -- but I would have liked a bit more of a legacy. We had the Democrat with the most longevity in office in since FDR, and what do we remember him by? His dick ...

I have started calling myself a Positarian. Or maybe I should go with Raelian ...