Admin: These messages were moved from the Mexico Chat area for being Off-Topic

Blazers: A vivid memory about Mexico v. U.S. Soccer matches

I have a distinct memory that makes me angry every time I think about it. I like to see as many competitive soccer games as possible. On two occassions I was able to see the U.S. play Mexico in Los Angeles. We lost in 98 but won in 2000.
In 98, there were 99,000 screaming fans (95,000 being of Mexican descent) and 4,000 of us lowly Americans behind the goal. They played the U.S. National anthem and they booed so loud that I could not hear the song...at all.

In 2000, the U.S. started mostly young players and won the game. This time there were about 66,000 fans (65,000 Mexican). The National anthem played and again the booing was so loud that the stadium was shaking. I left the building slightly drunk and telling everyone Mexican there how shitty their team is (in Spanish). I was lucky to leave there alive.

If Mexico wins, no big deal. Soccer is the only sport that they can compete with the U.S. If we beat Mexico, the entire country's nuts are completely cut off. Mexican men must look at themselves in the mirror and realize that the U.S. is now better than them in EVERYTHING. No amount of beers can ever wash that feeling down. The sad thing is that these are mostly people whom have benefitted from the opportunity the U.S. gives them yet they hate us and love a country whom gives them nothing.


Kendricks: Re: A vivid memory about Mexico v. U.S. Soccer matches

They are just blowing off steam for the way they are generally treated like subhumans in this country. Look at all the Americans who believe that undocumented immigrants should be left to die in the streets like dogs if they become ill, and who deserve to die in the desert for the "crime" of crossing a line to look for honest work.
I have also witnessed the inherent racism and disdain many Americans feel toward our hermanos morenos with my own eyes - despite the fact that America greatly benefits from their presence here.

To them, booing during a soccer game is kind of like booing against the villain during a professional wrestling match. It's just meaningless symbolism, anyway, and really nothing to get all worked up over.

Kendricks

Markymark: smarter than raider fans will ever be!

there still smarter than 98% of raider fans!

Milkman: our Agreement rate just shot up 9 percent

hahahaha
Kenny not to sound like CHL but i totaly agree with you on this.
Our agreement rate now stands at 54 percent.
I take no offense of those Proud mexicans who display their pride on their cars , houses etc..

viva Mexico !!
Milkman


Kendricks: What could the 46% disagreement rate possibly be? (NCF)

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MisterChekhov: Re: our Agreement rate just shot up 9 percent

I'm with Blazer on this one.
Why are they so proud of a country that they couldn't get out of fast enough?

Why are they so proud of a country that doesn't give a fuck about it citizens?

Why are they so eager to re-create in America what they LEFT and tried to get away from in Mexico?

Why should the American taxpayers be burdened by helping people which AREN'T its citizens, came here illegally, and boo the National Anthem of the country they now live in?

Why should the American government spend money to rescue illegals who are fucking idiots trying to cross the Sonoran desert in 110 heat with no water and then have the audacity to SUE the government when their relative die because they didn't have water stops for the illegals?

Why should the American taxpayers pay for healthcare for illegals when ITS own citizens are hungry and homeless?


Kendricks: I'll take these one by one

1. Why are they so proud of a country that they couldn't get out of fast enough?
It's not that they couldn't get out fast enough; they left for economic oppostunities. Many (most?) of them return at some point, although I'm not sure of the exact statistic.

2. Why are they so proud of a country that doesn't give a fuck about it citizens?

You are confusing "country" with "government". A country is it's government - I love America, but I think many things about our government suck ass.

2. Why are they so eager to re-create in America what they LEFT and tried to get away from in Mexico?

They're not. They are just trying to enjoy vertain things that they enjoyed in Mexico here. All immigrant groups do this, and it is one of the things that is interesting about America. When we are selecting a restaurant, we usually decide between Italian, Thai, Vietnamese, Chinese, Mexican, Indian, or some variation of American.

3. Why should the American taxpayers be burdened by helping people which AREN'T its citizens, came here illegally, and boo the National Anthem of the country they now live in?

Because the American taxpayers are profoundly benefitted by the labor of the immigrants, whether they have official paperwork or not. As far as the national anthem goes, I know some Mexicans that constantly sing the praises of America over Mexico. Is it ok with you if these people get emergency medical care?

4. Why should the American government spend money to rescue illegals who are fucking idiots trying to cross the Sonoran desert in 110 heat with no water and then have the audacity to SUE the government when their relative die because they didn't have water stops for the illegals?

Because the American government has essentially created a system where we are dependent upon their labor, yet have created repugnant immigration policies that we know will compel desperate people into dangerous territory to simp seeking honest work.

5. Why should the American taxpayers pay for healthcare for illegals when ITS own citizens are hungry and homeless?

The only hungry and homeless Americans I know are drug addicts and mental defectives who have halp available to them, if they are willing to seek it out. None of your arguments are valid, but this one is probably the worst.

Kendricks

book_guy: Agree with gist, disagree with specific

You said ...
"3. Why should the American taxpayers be burdened by helping people which AREN'T its citizens, came here illegally, and boo the National Anthem of the country they now live in?

Because the American taxpayers are profoundly benefitted by the labor of the immigrants, whether they have official paperwork or not. As far as the national anthem goes, I know some Mexicans that constantly sing the praises of America over Mexico. Is it ok with you if these people get emergency medical care?

4. Why should the American government spend money to rescue illegals who are fucking idiots trying to cross the Sonoran desert in 110 heat with no water and then have the audacity to SUE the government when their relative die because they didn't have water stops for the illegals?

Because the American government has essentially created a system where we are dependent upon their labor, yet have created repugnant immigration policies that we know will compel desperate people into dangerous territory to simp seeking honest work. "

These two are arguments based on enlightened self-interest. The American taxpayer / government should do good things for the Mexican immigrant (illegal, presumably) because we benefit long-term from them. I do agree with that idea, but I don't think that's the most important reason why we should "give" them free health care or what-not.

The biggest reason is, THEY'RE HUMAN BEINGS fer Chrissakes. Charity, services, call it whatever, is given regardless of the perceived benefit to the giver. It's given because of the NEED of the receiver. Yes, it costs the giver. But it's given because to not give, would define the donor as callous and heartless. It we recreate his self in the image of a monster, merely in the name of self-protection. There is a time when looking to the home is more important than sending the money elsewhere to be wasted abroad; but this is so close to home, I can't call it abroad.

I couldn't be proud to be an American, if I viewed America as a nation that denied humans the basic rights of decency, cleanliness, water and shelter and food, the opportunity to work for a living. Sure, there are kinks to be worked out in the system; and sure, it doesn't really sit well, that MY taxes support THEIR (the Mexican government's) ineptitude and failures. But then, I'd rather be the man who spent the extra dollar in the hopes of saving some grief, but then saw it flushed down the drain, than the one who tried to keep it in his pocket, watched someone die of thirst, and then ran to the sewer pipe and muckraked through the swill to pluck my dollar back out of the shit.

God is watching. However you define "God" and "watching" for your own personal view of the universe, there IS somewhere in your heart a "do the right thing" thing.

Kendricks: Correction!!!

That post should have read "a country is NOT its government", i.e., you can love your country, but have disdain for your government. Sorry for the typo.
If this is not true, then do you think that Cubans who hate castro are unpatriotic? Or that citizens of the former Soviet republics who hated communism were unpatriotic?

Kendricks

Milkman: Re: I'll take these one by one - now 60% (ncf)

x

Bookguy,

You are correct, I cannot argue with you on this one. I was just taking the "enlightened self-interest" approach since that is probably the only argument guys like this can understand. Arguing that people should be treated as human beings, even if they do have brown skin or come from another country, is usually dismissed by them as "liberal bleeding heart bullshit".

I also think blazer's original post contains some likely misassumptions on what he saw.

To start, he cannot possibly tell residents from citizens. How many of 95.000 he saw in the stadium were American citizens of Mexican decent or Mexican citizens living in this country (or even Mexcians traveling from the border for the soccer match)?

In addition, these soccer crowds do not represent general populations of Mexican Americans (if that's what they are). It's not only that they belong to the least educated group (as book_guy said in another thread), soccer is not really an "American" game (well, until yesterday anyway), thus the people who come to soccer games might be more Mexican in their mindsets than the rest of Mexican-Americans (come to think of it, a significant portion of soccer fans in this country are "ethnic" Americans).

Actually, my novia once told me Mexican Americans "hate" Mexico. She says, they think they are poorly treated in the US because of their ethnicity. I don't really know how true this statement is, in general. It wouldn't shock me if there is some negative sentiment toward Mexico among Mexican Americans, though. The relationships between "ethnic" Americans and their "mother" countries are often twisted. For example, many to most Japanese Americans do not like to associate themselves with Japan. Since Pearl Harbor, looking like a Japanese only gave them troubles.

Byron,

I know I will have all sorts of people tell me I am wrong, and that I should not stereotype, but in general I have found that there is no love lost between Mexican-Americans( chicanos) and Mexican Immigrants.

This uneasiness, is based on several factors. Primarily that even though they have a common ancestry they do not really share the same culture. Two different birds. Mexicans even have a word for chicanos " Pocho" and it is not a real complimentary word.

But I think this thread was about football. I think it would have been great for Mexico to win. It means a hell of alot more to them than it does to us. But to be truthful after all the shit I have taken from co-workers this week here in Tijuana about the US, I am glad the US
won this one.

I actually spoke with a colleague who is half Mexican. He said he rooted for Mexico, and made a point this has nothing to do with his loyalty to the US as its citizen. He says, soccer means little in the US, while it means everything in Mexico. This is only when he watches soccer which is not his primary interest, he says. His passion is Lakers.

I think you are right Batster1, that maybe outsiders like us are misinterpretating the reaction of Mexican Americans. Namely, soccer represents the "Mexico" part of their heritage (together with the fact that soccer means nothing in the US), but it does not represent the "whole" of them. The rest of them could be as American as any other citizen.

This does not justify their (I don't know who "they" are, by the way) booing to the US national anthem, but it is not clear from blazer's post how many of "them" actually booed.

Nor are the accounts of bigots like Blazers realiable, to any degree whatsoever. In any event, Byron's colleague summarized my main reason for rooting for Mexico over the US - Mexico World Cup victories bring a lot of happiness to my Mexican friends and relatives, while my American friends and relatives are only vaguely aware that the US has a team in the World Cup, if they are even aware that the World Cup games are being played.

Mexico should not be depressed and ashamed ... they should be angry and embarrassed at how their team did not play with any class. Headbutts, intimidation, spiking the back of U.S. players legs ... they got what they deserved. The longer the game went on, the worse their behaviour became.

-Superman-

OK Kendricks...whatever you say...at least I'm not a self-hating basher of anything patriotic or anything remotely American. Can America treat Mexican's better..of course...but my story is to demonstrate the real envy and hatred that many (not all) Mexicans have towards the U.S. You hate America and your an American...how's that for bigotry.

Actually, I think that there are are many good things about America. Sam Adams, Sierra Nevada, legal gambling, Las Vegas, San Francisco, New Orleans, gun rights, legal porn, lots of opportunities to make cash, the right (and means) to travel freely about the globe, the right to speak opinions without fear of jail, etc. Being an American is good.

What I wonder is why people with such easy access to all of the above (and more) need to bash less fortunate people and countries in order to feel good about themselves. Can you explain this to me?

"What I wonder is why people with such easy access to all of the above (and more) need to bash less fortunate people and countries in order to feel good about themselves. Can you explain this to me?"

I've often wondered too. It may be an attempt to compensate for some personal internal inadequacy or inferiority complex, or personal frustration in life.

A Doesn't like to kick a man when he's down (but I'll lick a woman when she's down) kind of guy,

Out-of-Towner

I guess we bash for the same reason others bash us. Human Nature

Ootie, I think you nailed it. Ben, that's a cop out.

Kendricks..or why someone must continually bash people as fortunate or more fortunate than themselves...think about it. Envy, jealousy...not sure why you do it but you do. Besides, I have only bashed Koreans. I have never bashed Mexicans directly, I have only bashed their actions from time to time.

Kendricks, your posts are the most venemous of all...it's just that your words are praised or dismissed because you love to bash the elite and the strong while praising those with weaker minds or wallets....all the while giving them excuses for their actions....typical liberal mindframe. If your going to tell me that minorities don't see color, I hope you have some more funny jokes under your sleeve....

I root for the USA team whenever I can, because (although I admit that it's true, most of my fellow American citizens don't give a rats ass about soccer success and failure) it's IMPORTANT to me to improve the status of the game in America.

I'm disappointed that, when we legitimately compete on the world stage against nations that are rightly considered our parallel, not our underlings, the few occasions when this can happen are either rigged in our favor (dream team basketball at Olympics), rigged against us (former Soviet professionals at Olympics), or ignored by most bigoted sheltered Yanks. It's my impression that, to be a REAL American, we ought to want to play the games the rest of the world plays, and want to do well at them in a legitimate way, and really soccer alone offers that opportunity consistently.

So, for me, once every four years a "real" chance for Americans to grow and become better presents itself. In 1998 we played against Iran in a friendly encounter. They beat us. That ought to have said something about what a bad job we were doing at being a world citizen. Instead, most uninformed Americans swept that under the rug, and went back to watching a bunch of Russians and Czechs fighting over a cup donated by a British Lord to the Canadians, because they were "proud" to be from Detroit.

I don't get it. If ya wanna be "proud," be proud of an accomplishment. Winning the Super Bowl doesn't impress the French, because they aren't TRYING to be good at rugby-football of the American sort. Winning the World Cup WOULD impress them.

So, although it's true that a Mexican victory would bring "greater good" to Mexicans than would a USA victory to Americans, in the long run I think that for the good of the American game I want us to do well, just so we get the (soccer) respect we deserve.

I mean, heck, right now you can't even SEE all the games in this country unless you subscribe to a Spanish-language channel. That's sadly irresponsible of our nationwide media outlets. They are effectively saying, it's OK to teach Americans to ignore what the rest of the planet thinks is interesting and important. I think that type of isolationism is a dangerous plan ...

OK, since we're off topic anyway, here's a joke.

There's this guy named Bernie who lives in New York. One morning, he hears a voice in his head. The voice says, "Quit your job, sell your house, cashout the retirement fund, take all your money, and go to Las Vegas."

He ignores the voice. Later in the day, he hears the voice again. "Quit your job, cashout the retirement fund, sell your house, take all your money, and go to Las Vegas." Again, he ignores the voice.

Soon he hears the voice every minute of the day. "Quit your job, sell your house, cashout the retirement fund, take all your money, and go to Las Vegas."

He can't take it anymore. He believes the voice. He quits his job, sells his house, takes all of his money, and flies to Las Vegas. As soon as he steps off the plane, the voice says, "Go to Caesar's Palace."

He goes to Caesar's Palace. The voice says, "Make your way to the roulette table." He goes to the roulette table. The voice says, "Put all your money on red 23." He puts all his money on red 23.

The dealer spins the wheel. It comes up black 17.
The voice says, "Fuck!"

I wouldn't disagree that the WC offers the unique opportunity to mix athletic competitions with national prides for those who care.

However, I think it is plain wrong to suggest that the outcome of these games mean anything in measuring each nation's intention to be "a good world citizen".

Does Brazil excel in soccer, because of their sense of obligation to be a good world citizen? Is Dominican Republic, who produces loads of All-Star baseball players, a bad citizen, because they don't compete in soccer?

If anything, it is healthy that the US and her citizens did not pay too much attention to the fact that its national team was beaten by Iran in a mere friendly. In the big picture, it was just a sporting event. If Iranians want to celebrate on the occasion, let them. It could not have hurt the diplomacy.

"They are effectively saying, it's OK to teach Americans to ignore what the rest of the planet thinks is interesting and important.

It seems to me you might need to distinguish the concept of "interesting" from "important". Soccer is "interesting" to the people in many nations for various cultural reasons. But, its "importance" has a limit. At the end of the day, it is just a sporting event. It is not nearly as important as, say, rescue efforts follwoing natural disasters and treating diseases. That's how we should be measuring the qualification for world citizenships, not by how many times (millionaire) athletes from certain nations find nets.

"It's my impression that, to be a REAL American, we ought to want to play the games the rest of the world plays"

I don't agree with this one either. My impression of being American is, you believe in yourself and do not follow the crowd for the sake of it.

You come up with the modern concept of democracy, and make it a reality. You institute capitalism like no other country has done. With the same spirit, you invent new sports which are your own (baseball, football, basketball,..).

If some Americans have discovered that soccer is a seemless beautiful sport to watch from this WC, then their interest may last long. On the other hand, promoting soccer "because the rest of the world plays" sounds like a wrong idea, to me.

Mabey if there could be a universal agreement to just have one human sacrifice after ( or before) major sporting events we could save alot of injuries and mayhem...

Has there even been a universal agreement on anything?