OG

I can't debate each point over and over. We disagree on principle, fine.

I agree this is not an ideal world, I have yet to see how "President" (get it?) Kerry will do better. Gerhardt Schroeder has already rebuffed Kerry, saying Germany's position will not change with our election.

Guess that leaves France to come around.


Fortunately I have a FFL and all the "automatic" weapons I desire. -- Well, I am looking at a vintage Bernelli... Thanks for your concern.




"YOU do not have to fight it an obviously have no relatives there so you can smugly say "Yeah, GO Usa" and not have somebody shoot back"

Hmmm.
I am home in bed as a result of - my smugness? The bandage on my best typing hand is what, my arrogance? I would love to have this bag off my stomach, and have my manly man hair back to go mongering. I am begging return to duty (USMC), can't get a medical release to a combat zone.

I went in twice under a 'Bush", and can say it was worse under Clinton.

Enlistment remains high. The Core has had never wanted for recruits, and has made the requirements tougher.

You are right about the higher re up monies, but wrong on the intention. If we made service more desirable you wouldn't consider that helpful to those that actually like serving, but a fucking bribe?

I make enough money in private business to be in Kerry's tax gun sites. I am due to re-up very soon, but may not, so I can return as an independent, as I was in Afganny the first time. More money and adventure can be had without all those US rules and constraints, But, I actually like the job, like the vast majority on us.

5) Laura Bush.

Let me get this straight. You believe that the president's wife is a good reason to re-elect him? Well, to each his own, I guess, but I'd have to have a candidate with a wife as hot as Jackie Kennedy before I'd give him any credit.

Now, let's talk about Afganistan, shall we? More Afgan farmers are growing opium poppies than ever before. Afganistan now provide 75% of the world's supply. Half of Afganistan's gross domestic product comes from poppies. I guess the war on terror has supplanted the war on drugs, eh?

Speaking of drugs, Bush said in Ohio today that he'll use educational programs to curb drug use by young people today ... just like he helped improve national education (I'm not being sarcastic here).

Does anyone else get the impression that Bush senior, upon learning of his son's death due to a drug overdose, had surgeons go to work making a substitute using Dan Quale?

Rimnoj, just what the heck is your story? I don't mean the whole right wing thing (hey, we need a right wing to have a left wing, eh!), but what did you do in Afganistan, and you really want to go back?

I'm not setting you up here, I'm really curious. (Start a new thread if need be.)

Random thoughts on the political scene:

People think Halliburton is the root of all evil. Maybe it is. But its open ended, and almost exclusive service contract, with the military was resigned under Clinton. They went in big time to Bosnia( Clintons unnaproved aggression) to provide service and build bases. I wonder how much Clinton and Gore got in kickbacks? Or do only republicans do kickbacks?

Kenny Lay was an equal opportunity offender. He gave money to dems and republicans. But he is getting prosecuted by a Republican administration. Interesting that the prosecution of corrupt bigwigs has gone up under Bush II. Especially considering that alot of the dirty dealing happened on Clintons watch.

I know Halliburton is in Iraq to make a killing. But they sure are getting there ass kicked now. Has any one seen the losses over the last three quarters?

I get a kick out of Kerry and others going on about how they would be happy to give their $5000 dollar tax return back to the government to screen containers in LA. Easy to say when you have millions. My $300 was more important to my pocket than $5000 dollars is for them.

I wish Teresa Heinz would pay her share of taxes. Based on the returns that she has released she does not pay much. Wouldn't it be noce to be able to hide income in trusts. But I wont bitch too much. Contrary to what any good socialist would believe, the rich already pay more than their share of taxes. I believe the figures are the top 5% of income earners pay around 50% of all the income taxes. and the top 50% of income earners pay 96% of taxes. Leaving the bottom 50% to pay a measly 4%.

I think its past time to go to a national sales tax. Then the poor could pay their share( a little sarcasm)

I always get a kick out of people talking about the "Rich Republicans". The majority of the 10 richest members in the senate are Democrat.

I am going to go out on a limb. I believe that Bush is going to win easily. Explorer hopes I am wrong like I was about WMD in Iraq( I do admit when I am wrong). We will see. If he wins by a small margin, the left will say he "stole" the election. In fact they will probably say he stole the election no matter what.

Even though Kerry would categorize me as rich, I love shopping at Walmart. I saw the nicest mexicana their today with the biggest tits and the tiniest waste.......And she even gave me some great eye contact. Too damn bad I was in a huge hurry to pick up a new suit case( for my vacation that starts tommorrow)and get back to my office to wrap up the week......but I digress

This is an interesting thread. I hardly ever agree with Explorer, but I think he is one of the funniest posters on the board. And I don't agree much with Dart either, but he is a damn good writer. And Organgrinder is pretty damn good also even though he is an Etarra lover.

See you in a few weeks.

Batster1 -don't go. Aaahh!



OK, #five is weak, that's why I put in the no particular order thing. I was just making a comparison. LB is respectful/respectable.

Gary Hart should have been elected on the bimbo meter, and Bill deserved impeachment over thunder hips.
I guess the BJ was a good Clinton decision, however.


7)
Taxes. Tax cuts.
That 300 was a fixed “rebate only”. Bill gates got the 300 too. Everyone who paid taxes got a break (baa- what ever) . The majority got more after filing at the end of the year. The withholding rates changed mid year as well, the savings were more than the 300.

We can argue whether or not it did this or that, but I saved money as did most of you I am sure.
Since I feel I have a choice, I’ll “stuff the dough in my shirt”.

Rimnoj hands us yet another - shall we say - "inaccurate" quote:

"I know Halliburton is in Iraq to make a killing. But they sure are getting there ass kicked now. Has any one seen the losses over the last three quarters? "

The impression that Rimnoj is trying to give is that Halliburton is losing a lot of money in Iraq. However, the reverse is true, its the operations in Iraq that are generating the cash to offset Halliburton loses elsewhere (asbestos claims and a troubled deepwater drilling project); in 2nd qtr 2004, Halliburton generated $1.7 in revenues in Iraq.

So, without the Iraqi sweetheart, no bid contract, Cheney's former company could be in some trouble, quite the opposite of the impression that Rimnoj was trying to give. The question is why Rimnoj would be trying to give us a false impression?

Come on Explorer. Are you dipping into the muscatel a lttle early? Its Batster not Rimjob that brought up Halliburton. Get with the program.

You are right that Halliburtons biggest losses are due to Asbestos write off.

And I was not trying to give a false impression. I am just stirring the shit. I think its funny that the left thinks that Iraq is all about Halliburton. They believe everything Michael Moore says.

So what about the NO bid contract that the Clinton admin gave Halliburton? I think they were paid 2.8 billion for Bosnia. I guess Gore wanted to help out his buddy Cheney. No bid contracts are good for Dems bad for Repubs. I think its funny that people are so blind to the errors of both parties.

Of course Iraq was about Cheap oil also. Blood for Oil or something like that. I am glad that oil is so cheap now.

Batsterreallyleavingonvacationnow

Haliburton's profit or loss isn't quite settled for this year. I do wish I owned that sucker, I could take quite a bit of name calling and false accusations of mis-statements. (ex? anything to say?)

I'll offer in Batster1 defence, don't confuse revenues with profits and leave it at that. I still do not have a problem with corporate profits and such.
I don't pencil Haliburton's balance sheet.
Have some respect for those who have been killed working for them, please.
Give up on the no bid joke.

8)
Bush will put the U.S.A. first

Not the blue hat.
I have no problem with the troops of the U.N. for the most part. I actually respected many of the FRENCH the most.
But, I would not want to put that baby blue brain bucket on.
Some of those commanders resent us far, far, more than you libs resent me.
Many fuck us when they can.

Rimnoj:

I must apologize for calling your statement inaccurate, when in fact it was the Batster who claimed that Halliburton was losing money in Iraq.

BTW, since the "veterans" ran their anti-Kerry ad, here is what we know now:

1) None of the veterans actually served with Kerry.

2) Some of them previously publicly supported Kerry.

3) Some rich guy from Texas started giving some of them some cash.

4) Now these guys are opposing Kerry.

5) The Bush campaign has distanced themselves from the ads, claiming that they concede that Kerry has a fine war record.

So, who do you believe, some Texan who is trying to smear Kerry through the application of lots of cash OR the Bush campaign?

All of them served with Kerry. The claims of them not being in his boat are what you refer to. Gardner was a gunner in Kerry's boat, and is quite outspoken about this. One of them is a doctor who treated Kerry.

The rest were witnesses, and officers, in other boats at the scenes of the events.

These are credible witnesses. There are twenty some of these officers, not just the six sub ordinates that, by the way, were spirited out of Nam 6 months early, compliments of John himself.

A rich guy in Texas supported them to the tune of 100 grand. How does that compare to anything like the millions george Sorass has contributed to Kerry's fairies?


Bush will smartly stay back, but he did denounce the whole independent group thing, mostly as a smart ass lick at McPain, who built this forum with his campaign finance idea. Of course I know Bush signed it. Another Bush error.

These men are doing the talking. Not some other Texan.

How bout Kerry addressing Mike moores 'Big scene". Looser. This guy is self destructing. There are more bombs to go off in his camp.
He really stirred this up with that salute.

6) Bush will put people first.

Ahem, like the Chip Away the People's Freedoms Act? You're probably more familiar with the candy coated name Patriot Act. (Just how the hell is this act patriotic, anyway?) How 'bout the Carnivore e-mail harvester to pry into the affairs of private citizens?

People first, eh? Environment be damned, eh? Gore wouldn't have proposed drilling for oil on Alaskan reserves. He'd have probably done something more sensible like slap massive taxes on SUVs and tax incentives for vehicles with low power consumption.

7) Taxes

So, what did we get for that 300 clams? A spectacularly massive deficit. That means you'll be paying -- oh, I dunno, let's say 100 bucks a year for the next six years to pay for it? Hmm ...

8) Bush will put the USA first.

Huh? Just what the smeg does that mean? Can you name a single president in the past two hundred years who did not? I mean, I thought the First Lady thing was lame, you were really stretching there, but this ... this takes the cake!

http://www.counterpunch.org/wormer1011.html

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_4921.shtml

I'll be kind, Bush is incompetent and should not be president.

Wombat88:

It doesn't need to be one extreme or the other on environmental matters. Your stance belittles the "Earth" and her resilience. Use it or lose it, I’d venture. The greens way over blow their case. This comment does not refer to civil issues as it does land, resources and misstated species hardiness.

We got MORE than three hundred, right? I believe the revenues increased as a result of the tax reduction. That reduces the deficit. It’s not worth arguing, though, as the “facts” come pretty loose on economic issues.
Compare the "massive deficit" to the "even more massive" Gross Domestic Production.

Read the U.N. part. Kerry says he will defer sovereignty to the U.N. Of course, he says he will not as well. Use both ears, perhaps.

9) As if this isn’t enough of a waste of time.

Bush likes N.A.T.O. , but what pres doesn’t? Well. Kerry is against the expansion of it. I love it. Here comes more 'talking out of my ass' as someone put it, butt, N.A.T.O. is shaping up as an anti fundlemental Islam tough guy group.
Unlike the U.N., which is full of dictators and despots, rouge nations and endless debaters.

At least your not calling me names. I do have more cake, such as the Yellow Cake uranium Bush
LIED about. Then was vindicated. Twice. He never fucking flinched, that falls under the cowboy thing!

Rimnoj says:

"I believe the revenues increased as a result of the tax reduction. That reduces the deficit."

I believe that your drugs were kicking in when you wrote this. I hope that you have enough to last you at least until the day after the election.

It is unbelievable how the Bush people (whether officially associated with the campaign, or just "helping") are drudging up old film of Kerry's statements on the war, etc. made 35 years ago, as if to suggest that what he was saying 35 years ago should disqualify him from being President today. I would like to see some more recent footage so it would have at least some relevance, like George W. running his car off the road drunk and getting arrested, or perhaps someone can find footage of him getting arrested for that disturbance he created in college (well, yeah, maybe that footage isn't more recent than Kerry's, but I assume you get my point).

>>>Rimnoj says:

"I believe the revenues increased as a result of the tax reduction. That reduces the deficit."
I believe that your drugs were kicking in when you wrote this. I hope that you have enough to last you at least until the day after the election.<<<

If he doesn't, he can always go to Afghanistan to replenish his stash.

OG; Fuck the U.N.!! I love when people like you say "but Kerry will be able to work with them" The U.N. is about fucking worthless, I know this first hand. Remember the mess in Bosnia? The U.N. was there, France was there, hell half of Europe was there and they could not stop the war. I remember freezing my ass off with shitty cold weather gear when I was there. It took the power of United States to put an end to that killing field in Europe's back yard.

So like I said fuck the U.N. If we had waited for permision from the U.N. you might have had a chance to see what a war looks like from your front yard and not your T.V. set.

Hmm,

Bosnia

We did get help from the UN in Bosnia, We did get out of Bosnia , We got out of Bosnia with fairly light casualties, Bosnia is for the most part, peaceful now.

Iraq,

We went in without UN approval, We are still in Iraq, We are taking heavy casualties, Iraq is still a warzone

Do I see a trend here.

OH WAIT, we have the "Coalition of the Willing", Those brave nations of the Phillipines, Spain, Poland and countries like Surinam and Lower Elbonia. OH wait, thier abandoning Iraq and war faster than rats off a sinking ship. Man it's hard to bribe good help these days.

Don't you think it would have been better to wait until the UN inspectors had done thier jobs, or waited for UN resolution for war, (like the first Gulf War). Or maybe really read the intelligence reports given to the administration. Or really read intelligence reports from the allies.

I found it really suspicious that Bush was making such a hard case for a war in Iraq and the French and German, who had far greater inteeligence resources on Iraq , were not.

Hmm, that armchair quarterbacking now. Do not listen to your allies of more than 50 years if it doesn't match your political agenda.

But Hey, Fuck the UN, we don't need the French or the Germans or thier tanks or weapons, hey we can die just as easily as they could..if they were here, which they are not

So were saving the world from terrrorism, one US Casualty at a time.

OG

So, now its all terror, all the time, probably between now and the elections. I predict that the day after the elections, the threat level will go way down.

I am still waiting for someone to defend Kerry for missing 38 0f 49 hearings in the last eight years as a member of the Senate Select Committe and voting to cut the intelligence budget by 7.5 Billion Dollars. These are facts!

Where was he for his duty to American people....I will tell you where he was....he was AWOL 78% of the time. And now he has balls to say he is ready to report for duty!

Well, at least he actually reported for duty (unlike Bush who spent most of his presidential time on vacation).

This whole issue of how many hearings of a particular committee Kerry went to is rather ridiculous. The real work of the Senate does not get done at hearings (most of the time) and the statistic doesn't differentiate between hearings on nonsense and hearings on important issues. Using hearings as a measure of a Senator's worth is sort of like using attendance at your classes as an undergraduate as an indication of success in school. I'll take the A student who finds some of his classes a waste of time and therefore skips many over the C student who goes to class every day.

Having said this, it raises one of the most embarrassing comments Bush ever made since becoming President. Speaking to his alma mater, he said something like "I'm proof that even a C student can become President of the United States." Well, yeah, and now we now that maybe for an office like President we deserve better.

The issue of Kerry missing Senate hearings is a non-issue, all candidates for higher office who happen to currently serve always miss lots of meetings. For Chrissake, please tell me about the George W. Bush attendence record in the great state of Texas in 2000!

The reason no one responded earlier to your post, is that it was a no-brainer. There are standard attacks that are made on candidates, depending on their office, and no one even bothers to deal with these standard attacks, they are cliches.

Beachman; Remember my post on Monday, asking why I should vote for Kerry? The only reply was anti Bush.

The problem that I see is there is a lot of hate out there. For those of you that are thinking that dumping Bush for Kerry is going to change the way the Muslims look at us are dead wrong. They hated us prior to Bush, Clinton, Bush sr., Regan, Carter, Remeber what happened in Iran in the late 70s?

And now, the other shoe drops:

"But yesterday, a key figure in the anti-Kerry campaign, Kerry's former commanding officer, backed off one of the key contentions. Lieutenant Commander George Elliott said in an interview that he had made a ''terrible mistake" in signing an affidavit that suggests Kerry did not deserve the Silver Star -- one of the main allegations in the book. "

<http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/08/06/veteran_retracts_criticism_of_kerry/>

Excuses for Kerry again. How about Kerry admitting to comitting attrociaties in Vietnam and violating the Geneva Convention. Even all though all soldiers were given classes about the Geneva Convention and a Geneva Convention card.

Kerry wants to take credit for and wants us remember the leadership he claims from the Vietnam and expext us to give him immunity from the attrociaties he committd in Vietnam.

Are you naive enough to believe that if he is elected president that his addmission of commiting attrociaties in Vietnam will not come back to haunt him and the United States.

Bin Laden, Castro, the Chinese..... are all going to have a field day when it comes to Human Rights violations. And you know the French will be jumping on that band wagon!


These are facts.....there is all kinds of film footage of his admissions!

Beachman: you've opened a different topic, Kerry's conduct after the war. We'll get to that in a bit.

However, please explain the Bush war record to us, he is your candidate. We don't need you to explain our candidate's war record to us.

However, the big issue of the day is:

<http://www.chron.com/cs/cda/printstory.mpl/business/energy/2722562>

Bush is ordering that the US Strategic Reserve add another 100,000 barrels a day despite record high oil prices. This will put even more pressure on oil prices, and cause you to pay more at the pump. I am getting the feeling that Bush expects to lose the election and is simply trying to put as much money in the pockets of his donors as is possible in the waning days of his administration.

Rimjob,

Obviously my opinion means something to you, otherwise you would not blame spit coming out of your screen for your swelling, teary eyes.

...make no fucking sense...accountant types
Which ass did you pull those out of? If by accountant types you mean decent spelling, proper grammar, and the ability to form full sentences in a coherent manner, then yes I guess I am an accountant type. If you need me to chop up my sentences and throw in bizarre metaphors so you can better understand, simply ask and I will try to dumb down my writing for you.

You are a sheep because all of your "facts" and "history" stem from a single ideological perspective. You hardly understand opposing arguments which is why you regularly mischaracterize them.

Afganistan is hardly an issue, as has been stated before, many of us across the political spectrum came together after 9/11 and supported the Bush Administration for the Afghanistan campaign. To put it simply, one of the major controversies we've been discussing has been THE IRAQ WAR. Of course, a sheep might get confused and start defending the war in Afghanistan.

BAAAAAAA....

Are you naive enough to believe that if [Kerry] is elected president that his addmission of commiting attrociaties in Vietnam will not come back to haunt him and the United States.

Sheesh! Are you naive enough to believe that the United States itself is not one of the greatest (if not the greatest ) committer of atrocities since the second world war? Are you unaware that the government has systematically used terrorism to subjugate so many other governments it’s difficult to keep track of them? Do you not know the reason why so many people of the world hate the US government? … Hate it so much as to give their lives?

No, Kerry can't affect this much (although I wish he’d try), but another four years of Bush sure as hell will make things worse! (“Crusades” and “Evil doers” my shiny metal ass.)

Explorer-

Just like you ignore many parts that are relative to many issues... you do so again.

Kerry admitting to comitting, participating and wotnessing war atrocities and violating the Geneva Convention relate to his conduct DURING the War ....not after the war. If he had the leadership and courage he claims he had in Vietnam he would have whave confronted those issues while still in uniform.

Bush's record has been well documented both in 2000 and now. Clinton's War record sure doesn't seem to bother you!

Kerry is the one who brings up his leadership in Vietnam.

Have you actually seen the film footage where he admits to comitting atrocitiesin Vietnam. The rest the World would love for him to be elected president because it will give them all the propoganda they need whenever they have the need to justify any human rights violations.

That film footage of John Kerry admitting to committing War attrocities will be played over and over again to terrorist recruits all over the World if Kerry is elected.

http://mickc.whizardries.com/blog/index.php?p=38

This will educated you better on the facts of John Kerry's Vietnam record.

Rimjob's updated list:

1. Bush in a cowboy hat turns Rimjob on
2. Bush invaded Afganistan while Kerry would not (although here we've expressed support for that invasion, but you confuse countries like you confuse terrorism, right?)
3. Democrats are coming to take Rimjob's guns!!!
4. Frying retards is the manly thing to do
5. A John and Teresa divorce will be embarassing
6. Kerry will shut off all parks
7. Bush's tax policy is better
8. Bush will put the USA first
9. Kerry is against the expansion of Nato

At least I'll give you one intelligent point in number 7. I do not agree with it, but at least it's not as meaningless as #1, #5 & #8, tangential as #2, invalid speculation such as #3 & #6, or so flimsily supported as #4 & #9.

Roadglide: The U.N. is about fucking worthless
That's pretty much what Bush said, until he flip-flopped and decided he had to start seeking their support again.

Beachman says:

"Bush's record has been well documented both in 2000 and now. Clinton's War record sure doesn't seem to bother you! "

Clinton was a draft dodger. Bush was a draft dodger. The big difference is that Clinton never went AWOL during a war. Doesn't it bother you that your guy was partying while AWOL while others who couldn't even get into the Guard were dying in his place?

However, I have to admit that a war record is NOT a requirement for being President, it is merely a plus. There have been good Presidents who did not serve. However, no prior President ever went AWOL, so that is problematic.

Actually, George Washington may have gone AWOL from the British Army during the Revolution.

Wombat-

Yeah...... so many people hate us that they all want to move here. So we are so bad.....why do you stay here? You tell me ....what country in the world would you rather live in or do you think has conducted itself with the most respect since War War II?

For those of you that are thinking that dumping Bush for Kerry is going to change the way the Muslims look at us are dead wrong.
This kind of misunderstanding and mischaracterization of the arguments against the Iraq War is exactly why your question appears insincere and probably why it was mostly ignored. If you are still describing your perception of our position on the Iraq War instead of what we've actually written, then why should we waste our time detailing points for you to ignore in place of your own preconceptiions.

If you still want to try asking the questions, though, I would suggest breaking it down by topic, such as: How would our economy improve under a Kerry presidency. Some of the others may be willing to respond to that. Personally, for now I would wait until I thought there were some undecideds participating in here before I got into that kind of depth of discussion.

Beachman, read my comment again. I referred to the government. Folks are allowed to hate the government and love the people (and you've traveled enough to know that by now).

Why do I stay here? Well, I mostly don't, but business is business (and business is good in the US ... no denying that).

What country has conducted itself with the most respect since WWII? Let's see ... how 'bout Canada? They're quite well known for peace-keeping efforts (as opposed to war-mongering) and never meddle with the affairs of others. They show up in the top ten of the “best of” places in the world so often you’d think they were bribing the judges! Switzerland prides itself on non-interference. Norway and Sweden are very well behaved (and considered to be two of the best places in the world to live). Iceland is very good, but nobody really cares about them, right? Come to think of it, I guess all the Nordic countries are very good.

Let's see ... Belgium is doing pretty good, quite benign. Holland is excellent. In fact, they have some of the most liberal laws on the planet. (Oh, by the way, in case the right wing brainwashing has had any affect on you, liberal means “broad minded, not bound by authoritarianism.)

While we’re in Europe, we mustn’t overlook the often overlooked Luxemburg. Did you know it’s GDP is greater than the US’s? Who’d a thunk it? Sadly, they’ve got a lot of pollution, so they loose points there.

Japan hasn't been too bad ... albeit they've used financial clout for influence (instead of brute force). Did you know that they have one of the highest life expectancies and lowest infant mortality rates in the world (the US doesn’t even rank in the top 20)? Too bad it’s so expensive to live there.

In the Antipodes, Australia gets top billing, but I give the nod to New Zealand (as I too often favor the underdog, besides, it’s cleaner).

Well, that’s a pretty good start. I don’t suppose you’re be tossing out your “We’re #1” trucker hat anytime soon, though. Will you?

Beachman, I doubt that anyone that's not already far-right is going to consider your atrocities arguments as anything more than far-right posturing. Certainly if anyone did we would be seeing this film footage being played over and over again right now. My reading of the transcripts suggest a far less serious meaning of "atrocities" than what you wish it meant. Kerry has stated that some of his wording was excessive, and given the context of the time period and the position he was in as a young soldier fighting to end a horrible and unneccessary war.

So on one side we have a young soldier who followed orders, perhaps some he shouldn't have followed, and who perhaps didn't report improper actions by fellow soldiers. He sustained documented injuries, received documented medals, and is supported by the crewmates who served on the same ships. Upon returning alive, he bucked the system and fought not for his own safety, but for the safe return of fellow soldiers who were fighting a war that was leading nowhere but to the loss of more American lives.

On the other side we have one who used his father's connections to get into Guard service, a well-known escape route to avoid service in Vietnam. (See note below) Neither documented records nor witnesses can prove he fulfilled his duties.

I don't think that anyone that's not already decided for other reasons can look at these military histories and come to the conclusion that Bush acted more bravely or more honorably than Kerry.

A review of Bush's military records shows that Bush enjoyed preferential treatment as the son of a then-congressman, when he walked into a Texas Guard unit in Houston two weeks before his 1968 graduation from Yale and was moved to the top of a long waiting list...It was an era when service in the Guard was a coveted assignment, often associated with efforts to avoid active duty in Vietnam. Bush was accepted for pilot training after having scored only 25 percent on the pilot's aptitude test, the lowest acceptable grade.
Bush's Guard Service In Question

Wombat,

Beachman is using a right-wing attack tactic, perhaps intentionally...perhaps not, of mischaracterizing your distaste for the Bush Administration as distaste for the US, calling into question your patriotism and love for your country. The hypocricy is so aggravating because we know the Right did not hold back during Clinton's presidency and would not hold back under a Kerry presidency. Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge mainstream Democrats did not commonly stoop low enough to accuse Republicans as being unpatriotic bordering on treasonous during the Clinton years.

It's a simple formula, if you criticize a Democratic Administration then you are for restoring honor, integrity, and credibility to the Executive Branch. If you criticize the Bush Administration, you are "full of hate", an unpatriotic terrorist sympathizer that "blames America first."

I bring this up because I think that it's important for us to recognize when this is being done. It seems to be a common diversion used at times such as when we are discussing the fact that we live in an inter-dependent world where our success depends on using a balance of influence, intimidation, AND cooperation. Some on the Right want to ignore that last part until they are forced to flip-flop and seek it.

10)
Schools

Bush won't bow the "big Education" system crippling our our kids. Free enterprise and competition will make our Education better.
Fuck the teachers union. They want more pay, for a lighter work load, without judgment of their own abilities or results they get.

Bush prior to age 40 was off limits in 2000. Kerry 35 yrs ago is open to debate in 2004.

"let them eat cake"

Kerry has brought his war record to the front of the table, ad nauseam. He deserves this.


Wombatt88:

I do like your list of "more respectful" places.
It would be wonderful if 'we could all just get along'.
You know that is the problem. There have been many rouges to rise up and be met by the "terrorist" here the U.S.A.
The world would not be cool at all without our strength, stability and direction.
Look at the world wide conflicts of today, fourteen involving one particular group and NOT us. I am sure Canada and Holland can form a world wide coalition and stop them, if they would just stop being so damn polite.

Rimnoj:

We are still waiting for your assessment of the Bush war record.

You mean currently? I am in favor, as are more than two of three serving.

He isn't running on his past record, nor is he pretending to be anything. I will say his service in the Guard is "good for him".
Military service is not the only indicator, or even a good one, for a management position and certainly not the presidency.

Kerry has built his career, and even more so this campaign, on his service. He can scarcely address anything without references to his brief time in country. These twenty some officers who served with him would love to let it go, but every man has his point where he can no longer stand aside.

Speaking of such, if the allegations were about you or I, can I assume we would not remain silent? I, for one, would suggest getting all the men in the same room and get to the truth. As a Senator, Kerry deserves more respect, but will have to show the balls to get. I am betting he won't. Some tough guy war president he will make.

Wombat-

You are mistaken...."people are allowed to hate the goverment but love the people." I thought our goverment was "of the people , for the people, by the people." Our constitution allows us to chose our goverment so it is a reflection of the people. I would bet the average person in any state in the US cannot even tell you who their two senators are in Congress.....and whats
more .....they really could care less.....they will flat out tell you that.

So every four years we have this popularity contest we call a presidential election than sounds more like Senior Class presidential election with both sides promising to do this and that.

But what I do know that there has been a war declared on us by terrorists and that Bin Laden and his followers are not the only ones who want to harm us. And if we learn anything from the last century from World War I & II that if we allow Europe to negociate with the tyrants who are allowed to build up a military machine that ends with World Wars.

With Korea, Vietnam and the Cold War.... with the US policy of using force and containment we prevented another World War from occuring.

If we don't the terrorist over there than it will be that much harder to stop here.

Wombat-

Those are some fine countries you pointed out by you fail to reconize that since the end of World War II the United States even if you don't agree how we have always done it has been most responsible for the World being free of a Soviet World. Starting with the Marshall Plan and ending with the end of the Cold War.

The countries you pointed out......benifited from our protection and have been been able to hide behind and be protected from the Soviet threat because we spent the money for containment.

Just think since the end of World War II we the United States ....would have been afforded the same opportunity as Canada, Sweden, Norway and Belgium and could have devoted a great portion of our military spending to our economy what the United States would be like.

Nice

"With Korea, Vietnam and the Cold War.... with the US policy of using force and containment we prevented another World War from occurring."

I had to laugh a Kerry's line in his convention speech, something to the effect of 'we will return to the long standing American value of going to war only when we have to, not when we want to'

What a dumb ass statement. I wonder how he would judge us engaging in these conflicts verses Iraq and the rest of the war on terror.

11)*
Bush has the endorsement of SOME foreign leaders.

We seem to all know who we would vote for, but who do you guys think Saddam would vote for, if he were a citizen?

Who would bin Laden vote for, if he were alive?

(Good thing, Kerry would bring him here, the 9th circuit would release him, and Mike Moron would sponsor his citizenship.)


Yassar Arafat?

Bush has fucked up our economy, disparaged our weakened, thinned out military, burned our bridges with the civilized world, and stammered his way thru the worst presidency in history.

Surely they will notice and vote in goose step with extreme Christian right wing wacko’s!

Beachman writes "With Korea, Vietnam and the Cold War.... with the US policy of using force and containment we prevented another World War from occuring."

How did US government intervention in Vietnam prevent another World War? Hasn't anyone told you or Rimjob that the US governmment lost? Talk about a "dumb ass statement."

We lost due to resolve at home not strong. We lost because of pressure by those who live in the States and still did not want us to do what was necessary to win.

The only valid comparison the Raq conflict has to do with Nam is those at home who are willing to compromise our national security to satisfy their own small minded, personal agenda.

You conveniently failed to notice the many other conflicts and the substance of Beachmans point.




11)
John McCain is supporting Bush

Not that you libs care. McCain said years back that the anti-war movement headed by Kerry was the single most effective propaganda tool used against him as he voluntarily remained in the Hanoi prison.

John Fucking Kerry.

A General from N Vietnam wrote in his book that he believes they would have lost if not for John Fucking Kerry’s efforts.

Is this why you guys support him?

Why DO you support him?

And yet a lesson of Vietnam remains.

They no damn well we are not afraid to return and get it right.

There may yet come a time when the left (outs) will get it. It may have to come at a great loss of innocent life.