Sound journalistic references (i.e. not right-wing mouthpieces), please! Beachman, I want to hear you out, but without solid evidence to back up your statements, you're just another Bill O'Reilly.

President Bush got more respect from our military than Clinton ever did. Troops hated sick Willie and specially that bitch hes married to, and the soldiers never saluted him with the same respect. Yall think that our troops is gonna salute Kerry any better? He ain't nuthin special. Our boys over in the war deserve a real leader.

Yeah, you tell 'em Bammer. We want a soldier in office! A man with combat experience, a courageous man who's faced the enemy under fire; not some pussy who hid out at the country club playing golf. We don't need a sap who asks that combat soldiers in the field pray for him. We want a man who will stand up to the Saudis, not bend over for them. We want a man who can stand on his own, not be propped up by his daddy and his buddies. Yeah, it's time to shove that snivelling sissy out of office and replace him with a real man like Kerry.

Go away, troll.

Bammer,

I beg to differ.

There was vast respect for Bill Clinton in the Military. That claim that the soldiers never saluted or held him in less respect than former presidents is just right-wing hyperbole. In fact absentee votes from the military overseas showed more voting for Clinton over Bush I in 92, and in 96, almost 3-1 over Bob Dole, a decorated WW2 veteran.

My brother, who by the way, is in IRAQ right now, has told me most of the soldiers in the field HATE Dubya. So much so, It is a standing joke to put George W. Bush's name on unexploded ordinance. This is one step beyond just putting his name on a hand-grenade, ( a reference to fragging- which if you do not know, was a method of eliminating certain much-despised idiotic superior officers in Vietnam). Soldiers are actually risking thier life to chalk his name on roadside bombs,and other ordinance, expressing thier hatred of Dubya. A fact that IS NOT reported on Fox News, which is obviously were you get your sources of information.

OG

There once was a soldier named Wombat
Thunk he was skilled at verbal combat
There ain't nuthin sorryer
Then a self proclaimed warrior
Takin a swing at our pres while at bat

Don't mess with Texas punk. Stand up fer yer country AND the womenfolk we got to.

There once was a mongerer named Bammer,
who was better known as a shammer,
one day he revealed his butt in Luomo,
at least that moonshine man ain't no homo.

Orgngrndr-

I would sure like to know where you are getting your overseas absentee voting data......Michael Moore's website.....oh...that explains it!

C'mon, Beachman, back it up, buddy! This is no taunt, I'm just curious as to your sources. Ten to one they're right-wing propaganda outlets (or getting their "facts" from right-wing think tanks).

I have been getting requests to withdraw my earlier limerick about Bammer on the grounds it is inappropriate. Unlike George W., I am man enough to admit I was wrong. I thereby withdraw the earlier limerick owing to its inappropriateness in this thread. I hope this sets an example for George W. to follow with respect to the swift boat smear campaign.

Hey Bammer, I got something for you buddy!

There once was a moonshiner named Bammer
Who spent most of his life in the slammer
While there he fantasized about his dog Rover
At the same time he was in the shower bent over

And remember y'all, vote for Kerry!

Bammer is a troll. Here is a message he posted elsewhere on the BBS:

"I've been lurking on this site for some time now. Read many of your reports. Seen yer pictures. Watched a few video films too. The only reason I joined this site for a year was to see what all the fuss was about, and so far I aint impressed. Masterbates leaves the USA to fuck fat chicks. Hell I can get them here without smelling puke in some Tijauna gutter.

I can get pussy here if I wanna. Bargirls who get drunk will go home with me for free. And if im' wanting a hooker, I can always drive through cracktown to find a $30 bitch to blow me. I just don't see why I half to leave my country to find cheap pussy.

Fact is, I really think many of you guys must be full of shit. You think that females in other countries are that much better than American women. Damnnn. Ain't you fellas ever been laid in this county?

I'm sure that the girlies around the world must be good too. My granddaddy used to say that all women look the same when you hold 'em upside down (god rest his soul). But honestly - what the fuck is up with y'all? Ain't ya never been laid here in the USA?

I joined this site cause I thought I might get a passport and try this internation sex travel thang, but you guys have done changed my mind. I don't want to end up liek yall. My membership expires soon, and I think i'm best to just let it go afore I become like you. "

I would suggest that, except for one thing, we ignore Bammer. That one thing is, of course, that he is a Bush supporter.

I doubt he's a Bush supporter. Anyone who can write with that kind of talent must be a Kerry supporter.

He is a troll though, so please, please, please, let's not feed him by responding here. That being said, be sure you visit the other thread Afore I Become Like You ... in which case you'll have a great laugh!

Exployer....Wombat

You admit that Fahenhiet 9/11 contain the "usual inaccuracities." Those aren't usual they are flat out lies. He made up a newspaper headline concerning the 2000 election ...that is a BLATENT LIE.

Through his movie he tells as fact that if the Supreme Court hadn't ruled....Gore would have won the election under any scenerio. He fails to look at the facts that a study by a newspaper consortium including the Miami Herald and the USA Today counted the ballots every way .....with the chads, without the chads and with the chads hanging and determined that Bush would have won anyway the ballots would have been counted. The New York Times with another newspaper consortium counted the ballots the same way and came to the same conculsion....Bush would have won under any scenerio.

Moore still ignores those facts and has the balls to claim his film is a documentary. What other lies and fictional accounts are in the movie.

And you say it is not Kerry's job to point this out. Maybe it is not....just like it is not Bush's job to tell the Swiftboat veterans what to say and not to say.

But John Kerry embrace and rewarded Michael Moore and invited him sit in the Presidential Booth at the Democratic Convention knowing that his movie had many fictional accounts and ignored many facts.

I bet you don't see any Swiftboat veterans sitting in the Presidential Booth at the Repubilcan Convention.

Beachman,

First off. I do not consider myself a liberal. I have voted Republican, Democratic, and Independent. But I do not support President Bush. I honestly feel that the lack of WMD and the Abu Ghraib hurt our international standing. I also find the President's position on stem cell research against everything that I believe in, including my religious beliefs. So because my opinions are different than the current President, I have been called a flaming liberal.

Are you comparing Michael Moore's movie to the Swiftboat veterans? There is one huge big difference, money. Swiftboat veterans was funded by Republicans, and Moore's movie was basically funded by the movie going public.

I agree with one point however. If Moore was at Kerry's campaign, it would take a lot of balls on Bush's part to have all of the Swiftboat liars at the RNC. Of course, Bush would never do that. Which highlights the flaw in your logic.

Beachie:

Let's see, Farenheit 911 was a condemnation of George Bush as President of the United States. It was 2 hours long, and what you have is that he composited a newspaper header, and his analysis of the Florida election returns varied from your analysis.

Tell me what else you didn't like about his movie?

On the other hand, Bush has had an abysmal record as president. Very here disagree with that assessment. In fact, you must agree with that assessment, since you spend no time on the Bush record, and everything on attacks on Kerry and Michael Moore.

Beachman, Beachman, Beachman, the Miami Herald, USA Today and the New York Times did not count the ballots. Whoever told you that misled you. I mean, Gore won the popular vote! If Bush was a fair and just man, he would have demanded that the votes be counted before declaring a winner. No, the puppetmasters knew that they could pull this one off. I mean with the guy's brother as governor, his cousin looking after the counting and with the supreme court full of daddy Bush's pals ... hey, you or I would have done the same thing!

Special late night post for Beachie:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5835000/

Yet another Swift Boat vet supports Kerry's account, he says that this guy Thurlow doesn't remember enemy fire because Thurlow was in the water at the time.

“When they blew the 3-boat, everyone opened up on the banks with everything they had,” he said. “That was the normal procedure. When they came after you, they came after you. Somebody on shore blew that mine.”

Please tell me again why Kerry, who was in the middle of that fire, didn't deserve his medal. Did Thurlow deserve his medal, or will you insist that it be taken away?

Last question: what is your take on the latest economic data?

Wombat...Exployer

You wanted a source other than the "rightwing media." Here it is the New York Times telling you....Micael Moore and everyone else Bush won the vote in Florida. Moore lied about that and many other things in his movie.

www.nytimes.com/pages/politics/recount/

Moore ignored all this information and mislead and fraudently and unethically made this film ... and called it a documentary. And John Kerry and the Democrats offically embraced him and rewarded him with the honored seat in the presidential booth at their convention.

Bluetraveller...

Moore's movie wasn't.... isn't funded basically by the public before it goes to the screens. In fact he was trying to get Disney to market and distribute it through one of it's other companies who one of the major stockholders is the Bin Laden family....the same family that Moore accuses Bush having ties to. BTW....there is no if Moore was at Kerry's convention.....Moore was an honored guest seated in the Presidential Booth and Kerry welcomed him with open arms!

I found this article an air america, I hope it doesn't break the brevity guidelines suggested here but it's just to much fun.

From an fantastically clearly-written NYTimes article about an interview with Bush. Read it, read it, read it.
A few highlights:
Mr. Bush ... acknowledged for the first time that he made a "miscalculation of what the conditions would be'' in postwar Iraq.

Great! The first step is admitting that you made a mistake. So, far, so good. But soon...

Mr. Bush deflected efforts to inquire further into what went wrong with the occupation, suggesting that such questions should be left to historians, and insisting, as his father used to, that he would resist going "on the couch'' to rethink decisions.

Ah. See, the next step is usually to learn from your mistakes. Nuts. And then:

On environmental issues, Mr. Bush appeared unfamiliar with an administration report delivered to Congress on Wednesday that indicated that emissions of carbon dioxide and other heat-trapping gases were the only likely explanation for global warming over the last three decades. Previously, Mr. Bush and other officials had emphasized uncertainties in understanding the causes and consequences of global warming.

The new report was signed by Mr. Bush's secretaries of energy and commerce and his science adviser. Asked why the administration had changed its position on what causes global warming, Mr. Bush replied, "Ah, we did? I don't think so."

Um. Comforting. And things get even weirder:

Mr. Bush conducted the interview in an unusual setting: A cinderblock dressing room, outfitted with a conference table and leather reclining chairs, accessible only by walking through a men's room underneath a small stadium here, where he appeared for a campaign rally.

...which is particularly perplexing, given that

The president was joined by one of his closest advisers, Karen P. Hughes, who is now traveling with him; the national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice; former Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani of New York, who was introducing him at rallies across the state; and his press secretary, Scott McClellan.

...meaning that Hughes and Rice must have walked through the men's room. But I guess he is the president, so he can change the rules.

This was also comforting:

Showing none of the alarm about [North Korea's] growing arsenal that he once voiced regularly about Iraq, he opened his palms and shrugged when an interviewer noted that new intelligence reports indicate that the North may now have the fuel to produce six or eight nuclear weapons.

Don't worry--President Bush had an explanation.

He said that in North Korea's case, and in Iran's, he would not be rushed to set deadlines for the countries to disarm, despite his past declaration that he would not "tolerate'' nuclear capability in either nation. He declined to define what he meant by "tolerate.''

"I don't think you give timelines to dictators,'' Mr. Bush said.

Of course not! That would be ridiculous! Nobody would ever do that.

Nobody would ever say something like

Saddam Hussein and his sons must leave Iraq within 48 hours. Their refusal to do so will result in military conflict commenced at a time of our choosing.

Thanks, Beachman. Well, the results are open to interpretation but I shall concede the point to you, touché. Still, how is it that lil' ol' Michael Moore and his film has you all up in arms about fraud, misleading people and lack of ethics when the right-wing press does this on a weekly basis?

Anyway, thanks for the reference.

Errr ... Moore' claim was that "under any scenario, Gore would have won a Florida recount". Just because the New York Times has another opinion doesn't mean that Moore's opinion is wrong, just that there are other opinions.

Bammer,

---- Army Times.

Beachman,

What you fail to mention is that the Supreme Courts upheld the stay of the Appelate Court to STOP COUNTING THE BALLOTS. At the time, there were several counties that had not completed a total manual recount of ballots, there was an estimated 500,000 ballots yet to be recounted, all in heavily democratic precints. Had these ballots been manually recounted, it was an almost certainty that it would have overcome the 500+ vote lead Bush had.

That the Supreme Court took the case, was a surprise to many legal experts, as traditionally the Federal courts did interfere with what was essentially a states rights case. The Supreme Court Justice who agreed to recieve the case was a Bush I appointee. (It only takes one Justice to agree to take an emergency case, they all rotate on this duty.)

The Florida Supreme Court had earlier upheld the Gore appeal to continue the ballot recounting, that had been stopped by Kathleen Harris.

It was the first time in U.S. History that the Supreme Court had interjected itself into an ongoing vote. Previous Supreme Court issues dealt with issues resolving the right to vote, or the manner of voting, but never had interceded DURING a vote. Highly unusual, unless you take into consideration that 5 of 9 the judges were appointeed of the Reagan-Bush administrations.

OH, and Michael Moore hired a fact-checker for his movies and DARED anyone to challenge his facts, even going as to offer a bounty for facts that were bogus.

So far, not one challenge of the VERY few, has succeeded. Now, if the right wing, beachman, bammer, and rimnoj, have issues with Michael Moore's facts in the film, and no-one has succesfully challenged ANY of the facts of the film, ANYWHERE, I can only presume that they are attempteing to blow smoke up our ass, to attempt to confuse the issues, and just out-and-out lie to make thier twisted version of the world "fit" the real-world facts.

No wonder this is a popular theme. If the "leader" of the free world can live in a fantasy land, why can't they enjoy it.

OG

The New York Times article is consistent with my recollection of the post-election analyses of the ballots by various news organizations that if the recount Gore requested (which was limited to certain counties) had been done, he still would have lost Florida; however, if the whole state had been recounted, something his lawyers did not ask for, he would have likely won. This is apart from the fact, which is troubling but does not have a solution, that there were a large number of ballots in Florida that were meant to be cast for Gore, but owing to inadequacies in the ballots, and/or ballot procedures, these either were not counted (spoiled ballots) or were counted for Buchanan (West Palm Beach).

To the extent Moore claimed "under any scenario, Gore would have won a Florida recount," there is to my knowledge no evidence to support this claim, unless Moore is limiting his statement to recounts that included every ballot in Florida. If he means to include a recount only of those ballots requested by Gore, I suppose his statement goes under the category of "anything is possible," hardly a persuasive position.

Orgngrndr: The problem with your conclusion, is that while everyone assumed a recount of the ballots Gore requested, coming from heavily Democractic precincts, would have yielded enough votes for Gore to win, when the various news organizations were later given access to these ballots under Florida's very extensive freedom of information law, they found this was not so. Only when all the ballots in Florida were recounted did Gore seem to win. I am unaware of any credible reports that this "recount" was biased in any way, although perhaps there are some out there.

Nonetheless, it is true Gore received around 550,000 more popular votes than Bush. Kerry is IMHO a stronger candidate than Gore, at least from the perspective of who would make a better president. My hope is that the electorate agrees.

LaGuy

The ballots in question were SEALED by the State and Federal Courts and were never allowed to be seen or counted by journalists or anybody whatsoever. The ballots the journalist were allowed to review were those that were NOT the ones sealed, but they were ballots from the counties and precincts in dispute. The ballots sealed were the ones that had not yet been recounted by anybody and will remain that way.

This is the reason why many feel the vote in Florida was stolen. The fact that the Bush appointed Supreme Court sided with Bush to STOP the recount before it was completed and when seemingly the recount was yielding votes for Gore at a ratio of around 1 in 400-500 votes recounted.

The Supreme Court never ruled that Bush won the election, rather it ruled that Bush's rights were being violated by extending the dealine to count the Florida votes. The votes were sealed by the State of Florida to assure that George W. Bush's rights would never again be violated by the Florida voters.

Perhaps you're thinking, like a lot of people, that this won't ever happen again?

Think Again.

Right now the two big issues are the new Diebold touch screen voting machines, and the seeming harrasement by the Florida State Police and Black Elderly voters.

The Diebold machines are the same ones that were DE-cerified in California for election use as they were too easy to tamper with, were prone to gross errors and uncounted bugs and were mostly unreliable. The source code and some of the patches, as well as comments from some of the programmers and technicians designated to repair the faulty machines was inadvertedly left of the diebold ftp site with annoymous access. Diebold then tried to sue anyone who wrote published these comments or post negative comments about the machine on the internet. They finally gave up when a consortium of Universities fought them in court.

Not only that, but most models of the newer machines do not have a paper backup., ie NO paper trail. This is a another cluster fuck looming in Florida and some Southern States that have adopted these machines. Yet Jeb Bush has, with the Republican Secretary of State (who replace Kathryn Harris when she ran for congress) has OK's thier use, WITHOUT a paper trail.

There are some heavily democratic precincts that HAVE to use these machine,that are requesting that an extra number of absentee paper ballots be made available a they are asking many voters to vote by absentee ballot.

Why?

Some Florida Precincts used DieBold voting machines in the 2000 election. Some had paper trails, some didn't.

From Diebolds own ftp site, archived comments from techs who were on call to fix problems the Diebold machines were giving them:

“I need some answers! Our department is being audited by the County. I have been waiting for someone to give me an explanation as to why Precinct 216 gave Al Gore a minus 16022 when it was uploaded. Will someone please explain this so that I have the information to give the auditor instead of standing here "looking dumb"

DieBold is run by a major supporter of George W. Bush and the Republican Party who are trying to use this influence to ram the machines down the throats of unsuspecting election officials.

The second problem arose when the Democratic Party asked for extra absentee ballots. These ballots are used a lot in minority communities by the aged and infirm to vote. Recently the Florida State Police launched a probe into election fraud. Part of the investigation was the interogastion of hundreds of elderly black voters. The questioning, according to civil rights leaders was more intimidating than investigatory. Rather than asking questions regarding the elderly voters knowledge of facts concerning the voter registration fraud inquiry, the question were formed to intimidate, as in "Do you know the penalty for perjury?, or, Do you know we can arrest you for voting fraud if your voter registration form is filled out wrong?.

When asked who were the targets or what the investigation was about, The Florida State police refused to give out any information to the Press.

The investigation was targeted at a black "get out the vote group" that focused on aiding the elderly black community vote in elections. No other voting group was targeted in the investigation. No other law agency, such as the FBI were aware of any voter fraud alllegations and no county of local officials received complaints of voter fraud or are conducting any investigations.

Most of the elderly black voters who were questioned in the investigations told reporters than they feared they would go to jail if they voted.

At this time, no charges have been filed, no arrest warrants issued, or special grand juries empaneled, only the continued interrogation of black voters by mainly armed white police officers.

If Jeb Bush wanted to intimidate black voters who would normally vote for democrats (and Kerry) in the next elction, into not voting, he seems to be succedeing.

This is NOT some vast right-wing conspiracy to defraud voters (although it really looks that way). It is, rather, a republican-cozy company trying to sell really defective machines and using its contacts and influence the Bush administration to do it. It is the brother of the president using his control of government to lauch what is most likely a specious inquiry aimed at intimidating voters through fear and reprisal.

It's not farfetched to reason out why Gore's tally's were never uploaded.

Or why the ballots in certain counties and precincts that had large population of hispanic, black and Jewish voters were never recounted.

But someone really needs to tell the tech who complained and perhaps the Black, hispanic and Jewish Florida voters.

OG

The problem with the 2000 election was that the inherent error in the voting process was greater than the margin of victory. We have never had an election so close. Somehow we had to do something to break the tie, and no matter what, 1/2 the country was going to be mad.

But that is water under the bridge. The key point is that the 2000 election could not have been any closer, and whether Bush has done anything at all to pick up/lose votes since 2000. I still have yet to meet a single person that voted for Gore in 2000 that now plans to vote for Bush in 2004. I have however met a non trivial number of people that voted for Bush in 2000 that now plan to vote for Kerry in 2004.

Orgngrndr:

Actually, notwithstanding my limericks,I am probably one of the most partisan Democrats on this board, and was outraged by what the U.S. Supreme Court did, both from a political and a legal perspective. I also am very fearful of a repeat performance, although statistically speaking it would be bizarre indeed if we had another election in which the presidency was decided (whether fairly or not) by less than 600 votes. On the other hand, at least two other Presidents in my lifetime would not have become president if not for fraud (in the case of LBJ, the fraud occurred when he ran for Congress; without it he would not have been on the fast track for high political office). So despite the myth that we live in a democracy where every voter's vote counts, I know this doesn't always happen and there is all kinds of room for manipulating the outcome of a close election. We will probably be in a better position to judge whether the upcoming election is going to be close a week or so after the Republican convention, when any Bush bounce settles.

Now moving to the 2000 election: not to question your information, but rather to be in a position to repeat it armed with back up, where can I find information about the Florida ballots that were sealed and not subject to inspection by the journalists? Perhaps I missed it in one of the articles cited above, or, alternatively, there must be some other source for this information. I suppose the other question is whether there is reason to believe the sealed ballots would have shown something different from the one's inspected by the journalists. Any thought on this?

Poll: More Believe Bush Behind Attack Ads
By WILL LESTER
The Associated Press

NEW YORK - Americans increasingly believe President Bush's re-election campaign is behind the ads attacking Democrat John Kerry's Vietnam experience, a poll found.

Almost half in a poll taken this week say they think the president's campaign is behind the ads that try to undercut Kerry's medals for heroism while just over a third think the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is an independent group, the National Annenberg Election Survey found.

The Swift boat ads, which ran in three swing states earlier this month, challenged Kerry's wartime service in Vietnam for which he received five medals.

The public's belief that Kerry did not earn his medals grew to 30 percent when the attack ads got widespread publicity on cable news networks. But that number has dropped to 24 percent now.

Kerry's campaign has accused President Bush of involvement in the ad campaign, a charge that was stepped up after Bush campaign counsel Benjamin Ginsberg acknowledged he was advising the group and resigned Wednesday from the Bush campaign.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/32-08272004-356287.html

Here's something a few of you guys will find interesting,
it's a fact check list for Fahreheit 911;
http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/index.php?id=16

Liberal Media Bias?
http://www.propagandamatrix.com/multimedia/myth_liberal.html?

Well, after getting outraged at what I read in "Republican Noise Machine" I slumped into a depression. Man, I was bummed! So, what should you do when you get depressed? Why, read something else that will outrage you even more and drop you into an even deeper depression, naturally.

I'd picked up Al Franken's Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them. on CD several weeks ago on a lark. I've never really been a fan of his, but I'd heard he was a thinking man's humorist. OK.

Well, a few months ago, I was hanging around in the lobby of the Dynasty Inn waiting for Epimetheus to get a shower. I spotted Franken's book on the shelf and figured I'd have a look. I managed to read one chapter and was impressed with his humor and writing style.

Anyway, after reading about how the right manipulate the press (and the public), I figured a bit of salt in the ol' wound would be a good idea (yeah, I'm like that some times). Well, I'm pleased to inform you that I feel much better.

Franken is funny. He's got a great sense of irony and crafts terrific satire. I mean, the book is good by itself, but with the audio version, you get Franken giving it to you straight.

What I like about the book is that not only does he tell it like it is, he has facts to back it up! (Something the right-wing press too often lacks.)

I'm only on the second CD, but it just keeps getting better. I recommend checking out chapter two "Ann Coulter: Nutcase." It was so much fun that chapter three is entitled "You Know Who I Don’t Like? Ann Coulter." Man, he just takes her to task, picking apart her arguments and showing them for the lies they are.

I particularly like the quotes from reviewers. A plethora of major news publications give the book glowing reviews (read ‘em for yourself on the site). Two of them, however, stand out. “A loosely knit collection of anecdotes padded out with cartoons" and “It's time to return Al Franken to the obscurity that he's normally accustomed to." The first is from The New York Post (major right-wing propaganda generator), the second is from Fox. Gotta love those guys!

Anyway, check out the book, but try to get the audio version. It’s a great laugh! Um, Roadglide, Rimnoj, Dripper and Beachman? Don't you guys read it. You'll just find it annoying (and I'm being sincere here).

How about this:

August 26, 2004

It Takes Real Courage to Desert Your Post and Then Attack a Wounded Vet

Dear Mr. Bush,

I know you and I have had our differences in the past, and I realize I am the one who started this whole mess about "who did what" during Vietnam when I brought up that "deserter" nonsense back in January. But I have to hand it to you on what you have uncovered about John Kerry and his record in Vietnam. Kerry has tried to pass himself off as a war hero, but thanks to you and your friends, we now know the truth.

for the rest, see http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2004-08-26

Has everyone seen the latest swiwtboat vets ad. Goto http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=244# and you can view it. The factcheck site also shows you how they take Kerry's words out of context, it's a great impartial site, it also shows the other side's misdeeds. I live in Florida and I can't watch TV for more than a half hour without seeing a negative ad about Kerry. Bush has raised over $200 mil, he is going to be hard to beat in Florida as a lot of the state is made up of folks who think like Bammer. I am not religious at all, but GOD HELP US!

Pilotboy; The Republican party is just doing to Kerry what the Democrats and their 527s have been doing to Bush for the past year and a half. Payback is a bitch.

As far as taking words out of context, the link in the post above yours is a good example. Mike moore is REAL good at that kind of a smear campain.

I can't belive people are back on the recount topic.

Beachman,

There have been several different studies from several different newspapers which resulted in several different conclusions depending on what ballots were recounted. The question I have for you is do you dispute the fact that voter intent in florida was to elect Gore over Bush. I am refering to the some 6,000 plus votes for Gore that were not counted because of the now infamous double votes for Buchanan and Gore on the misleading butterfly ballot. Even Buchanan was man enough to admit those people did not vote for him.

Roadglide, I agree both sides are without any integrity. But, to attack Kerry for his military service, and during a time of "war" is very, very, very low. I wish we had a third choice, but if Bush wins, we are fucked, IMO.

>>>he is going to be hard to beat in Florida as a lot of the state is made up of folks who think like Bammer<<<

Pilotboy: You seem to have a rather broad definition of what constitutes thinking.

After having just finished Al Franken's Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them, I have come to the conclusion that Bush is not a bumbling fool manipulated by others. No. He's an evil bumbling fool manipulated by others. I won't even bother going into the details, it's just too much to bear.

Franken does a great job analyzing the Bush administration and it is not a pretty picture. Franken's a terrific writer and I highly recommend this book to anyone but a staunch Republican. He's funny, light, and accurate.

I just saw on CNN a profile of Cheney from which I learned he was arrested twice for DUI's and was kicked out of Yale for poor grades. Now I understand why he gets along with Bush so well; they have so much in common. I also have a better understanding of why these guys showed such a lack of foresight about the consequences of their invasion of Iraq; they performed like the C and sub-C students they were and are.

I didn't know these facts before, facts that should in fairness be included in a "what were they doing in the 60's and 70's" side by side comparison with Kerry, perhaps as part of the truth-seeking function of the swift boat ads. And these ads should, in the interest of fairness, state neither Bush nor Cheney were under enemy fire when they were put under arrest for their respective DUI's, or when they were underperforming in college (Cheney: flunking out of college; Bush: performing in a manner that would later enable him to brag that he is an example of how a C student can become President. )

What did we all do to deserve these clowns?

From Townhall.org, a conservative website, (see, I do read websites other than those that espouse a "liberal" philosophy!)Who, I think, don't really realize what a genius they have in the White House.

---SAY 'CHEESE!'

"President Bush stopped for about 20 minutes at the Cady Cheese Factory and Shoppe . . . near Wilson, Wis. He toured the factory briefly, urging his host, Dale Marcott, to tell him what they do. Their conversation was hard to hear, but essentially Marcott told the president they make cheese."

- Official White House pool report

OG

The most recent Congressional Budget Office report on taxes.

The report shows the histest earning 20% of households now paying 82.1% of all fededal income taxes, versus 78.4% in 2000.

Taxes on the middle 20% of income earners were reduced from 6.4% to 5.4%.

The lowest 20% of income earners actually recieved more money back from the government than they paid.

The top 20% paid MORE than 80% of allfederal income taxes. What do you Democrats want....the top 80% to pay 100%.

And all this talk of 40 million Americans not having health insurance. I would guess 75% or more of them have other priorities than health insurance.

Those priorities included cell phones, 50+ cable TV programs, $70 Nike shoes, $4 coffee's from Star Bucks, designer clothes eating out at restaurants more often than eating at home, etc.

See the real problem is not health care! It is that our media society has convinced America that all the these luxuries are neccessities in our society and has convinced the public that they are more important to them than health care is. It is all about priorities and until people understand they have choices and that health care is a responsibity to be budgeted for before all those luxuries they think are neccessaries.

Beachman: Any idea what health insurance for a family of four costs these days, ASSUMING all members of the family are healthy when they apply?

Explorer, here's a good article on voter registration;

Defeat Bush movement spurs mass voter sign-up

Leaders of the Asian Pacific American Labor Alliance had a busy day planned for Aug. 21. After winding up their national board meeting in Las Vegas, half of the 40 board members were going to work a voter registration table in the city’s busy Chinatown Plaza. The other 20 were set to staff a voter registration booth amidst hula dancing and lei making at the grand opening of L&L Hawaiian Barbecue.
But before that, they were to start the day along with a couple hundred other labor and community voter activists at an 8:30 a.m. rally at the AFL-CIO hall. The aim, said APALA board member Rozita Lee, was to rev folks up and give them the information they need to get out the vote in Nevada.
These Las Vegas events are part of thousands of voter registration, education, mobilization and “vote protection” activities spreading like wildfire across America — in “red” states as well as “blue,” in tiny towns, leafy suburbs and gritty cities. They are evidence of, and seek to translate into votes, a smoldering grassroots rejection of the Bush administration

http://www.pww.org/article/articleview/5633/1/228/

Hmm, according to the Washington Post, a newspaper known for journalistic integrity
"Since 2001, President Bush's tax cuts have shifted federal tax payments from the richest Americans to a wide swath of middle-class families, the Congressional Budget Office has found ..." You'll find the whole article here.

Another quote: "The effective federal tax rate of the top 1 percent of taxpayers has fallen from 33.4 percent to 26.7 percent, a 20 percent drop. Yikes! I wish I had a 20% drop. I guess I'm just not rich enough.

Of course, if you were a Bushie, you'd be pretty upset, so it's time to smear the report: "Bush campaign officials have already begun dismissing it as "the Democrat-requested report." " Ha, ha! It should be pointed out that the CBO is led by a former senior economist from the Bush White House.

Beachman, where are you gettting your data? The report indicates that the top 20% paid 64.4% of the total (nowhere near 80%) in 2001. In 2004 it went down to 63.5%.

You're right about the media society though.

If the top 20% earners payed 100% of the federal income tax, would you want to be a taxpayer?

Heh, heh, it depends on how much I get to keep. If I earned ten million a year, I'd gladly let the government keep nine million of it! Just give me a chance to prove it.

TJuncle, although I appreciate the URL, note that the article only talks about plans, except for the story of one guy who registered a few hundred voters. I've found lots of sites that talk about plans for massive voter registration drives, but almost never about massive numbers of new voters.

What I am looking for is a news story that says "Massive numbers of new voters register for election 2004". What WON'T work for me, however, is the inevitable TV news story on November 2, 2004: "Massive lines at the polls as throngs of voters line up to vote". This story is always run before 8 pm on the major news outlets, every 4 years.


BTW, the People's Weekly World is almost assuredly a Red organization.

Let me quote some of the relevant passages from that Washington Post story at:

<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/a61178-2004aug12.html>

"Over that same period, taxpayers with incomes from around $51,500 to around $75,600 saw their share of federal tax payments increase. Households earning around $75,600 saw their tax burden jump the most, from 18.7 percent of all taxes to 19.5 percent. "

I think that's me in there somewhere as one of the taxpayers screwed by the Bush tax cuts.

Yeah, you'd have to earn an average income (whateverthehell that's supposed to mean) of $182,700/yr or less than $34,200/yr before you see a tax savings.

Meanwhile, the government digs a deeper and deeper hole of debt in which we can bury the next generation.

Say, you don't suppose that's what the Saudis have in mind, do you? Get ourselves so deeply in dept that they can screw us in the ass?

And of course, Bush would stand by and do nothing while America is screwed by his brother Prince Bandar.