I posted this under the "Lick Bush in 2004" topic, but then realized this really needed it's own topic to stand out. Bush will not stop at the military...
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While conservative propaganda media continue to dazzle simple-minded parrot-sheep with CBS, the Bush Administration continues their assault on civil liberties, in this case related to "the hobby".

Troops may be tried for using prostitutes - Seattle Post Intelligencer
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apwashington_story.asp?category=1152&slug=Military%20Prostitutes

DoD Fights Human Trafficking With Training, Awareness - Department of Defense
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2004/n09212004_2004092109.html

Note the lack of differentiation between human trafficking and consensual prostitution, in the simplistic eyes of Bush, Ashcroft, and the rest of their ilk, it's all the same thing.

Conservaties that support Bush while at the same time engaging in "immoral" behavior continue to befuddle me. Be thankful you are not a soldier under W. I'm waiting to hear the spin to explain that Bush will stop at the military and that this is not a first step against all "degenerate Americans" that frequent prostitutes.

(Thanks to Yujin for mentioning the first article on the Asia discussion board.)

Interesting article. I guarantee you that the vast majority of officers and enlisted personal (male, that is)who have served OCONUS have at least paid for a hummer at some point in their careers.

During my layover in Korea I spent a good deal of time drinking with an really cool Army dude in bars down at "hooker hill". All the prostitution bars were posted off limits to US military personnel.

Army dudes solution, he left his military ID at the base, carried a US passport and when challenged by MP's he flashed, but did not hand over his US passport, claimed to be a school teacher and boldly challenged the authority of US MP's to demand ID from a non military US citizen in a foreign country. He then demanded to talk to the Korean police who do have authority over civilians if he was to be forced to hand over his passport. Korean police of course did not want to be bothered by such silliness so the MP's had to let him go.

Beachman!

What's your take on this!!!????

Guess what? All of Hooker Hill and, well, half the regular places in Itaewon have been off-limits for years and years. Other than Nashville Club and maybe Seoul Pub, and I haven't a clue if these places are still even around, those were about it for "acceptable" establishments.

Wow; Well I guess it's a good thing that I am retired, and am no longer on active duty "hope I don't get recalled"

By the way guy's, when I was in Zagreb Croatia the local whorehouse was run by the Russians and staffed by Ukrainian providers.

They kept a close eye on the girls, and would not let them have any contact with customers outside the house. So there could be a little truth to the sex traffic story.

I don't doubt for one minute that women are trafficked and it is an international problem. What I challenge is the notion from this administration that ALL women are trafficked or even that they make up the majority of the prostitutes most men visit.

Are the women in the termas of Brazil trafficked? Are the freelancers of Help trafficked? Are the women of Adelitas and Chicago trafficked? Are the women of NEP, Cowboy and Walking Street trafficked? Are the women of the FKK's in Germany trafficked? Are the women of the bars of Recoleta in Argentina trafficked? Are the women of Fields Ave in Philippines trafficked?

That doesn't matter though. If you visit a prostitute she must have been trafficked, forced into it, or a child. At least according to the Bush Administration.

I wonder how those ladies in Pattaya and Bangkok get to go away out of the bar on vacations up to Chaing Mai or all around Thailand with their sugar daddy since they have been forced into this life and were trafficked. I wonder how the lady I took out of Solarium was able to come back with me to my hotel and gave me her cell phone number so we could meet again since she must have been trafficked. I wonder how Baby comes and goes from Nogales so easily and has her own car since she must be a sex slave controlled by someone else. I wonder how all those ladies in the Philippines get to go to and from province so easily since they were trafficked. And I guess when guys bring ladies to the US for marriage they must be trading in one slave owner for another. Drewwho married a woman who worked on Soi 33 in Bangkok. He must not be telling us the entire story. He must of had to pay off her owner in order to bring her to the US for a better life. What a nice guy that Drewwho is.

Enjoy it while it lasts, guys. The fundamentals say it won't last very long.

More than two thirds of the US population are female and/or religious, so a majority would support outlawing all sex tourism. The precedent for extra-jurisdictional laws is already there, thanks to the PROTECT Act.

We are seeing the main bug in democracy, namely minority rights, catching up with us. The main bug in free markets, namely monopoly, already caught up with us thanks to Microsoft.

Xeneno,

Some of the girls in FKK's are traficked, but not many. It was one of the reasons for closing Atlantis. Many of the girls in Thailand and the Phillipines are traficked.

The brothels and clubs that sprang up and serviced the Nato and Un troops in the Balkan Staes had mainly trafficked girls. So do the ones around Somalia and other UN tropp locations which have sprung up.

It is not only the moral authority coming through on this. If the americans need the help of the UN, they have to have to be in a position where they have little space to be attacked. UN soldiers are notorius for their use of some of the most dubious forms of prostitution in the world (underage is not seldom either). Just as there are tonnes of UN officials who were taking massive kickbacks from Saddam for the Oil for Food program. Many of their votes against the war were to protect their money stream.

The UN is the worst institution the world has seen in years, but for some reasons all the stupid people in the world think it is worth something. The US needs more troops in Iraq. They need to ask the UN. They have to have an Ace in the hand. If they clean up their Soldier Whoring then they can claim they are doing something to clean up one of the points of complaint.

After the Abu Gharab crap, it was clear there would be an unfair "grounded for 3 months" reaction. When we were kids if we got in trouble for fighting at school and got Grounded for a month, we weren't allowed to go to the dance either. They don't have much to do with each other, but they have to clean up their act for appearances.

I think that in countries like Germany, where there still are some troops, they will not crack down on the FKK visits so much. These clubs are frequented to 99% by non-soldiers, the opposite of Hooker Hill and other places, and it is in a country where the activity is more or less legal.

The rules have to be there, the question is how well inforced they will be.

To be clear I am a Monger that is firmly against John Kerry and any democrat that has ever walked the face of the earth.


Sabio,

the main bug with democracy is not minority rights. It becomes unsustainable when people realize they can vote for their personal prosperity. The idiot who promises the most gets the most votes, and the productive suffer.

Peter - Fan of Mongering and Divine Monarchy.

Peter29,

Are you saying that Atlantis was essentially a slave house where women were brought and held again their will, forced to service 10-20 men a day, didn't keep any of the money they earned and could not leave of their own free will? If that is true then it should have been closed and should remain closed.

As I understand it you have spoken with many of the women in FKK's. When I recall reading your previous stories I thought I recall reading about women who chose to be in the profession (Actually left being nurses, etc since they made more money doing this), paid a small fee to live/work there and kept all the money they made.

Xeno,

The authorities are claiming that that sort of thing was going on. But it wasn't really a slave house. 95% of the girls working are free to come and go as they please, are in full possession of their papers and really cannot be held against their will. However, there still are girls being enticed to come to Germany under sometimes dubious circumstances, an once they get here they are coerced into working. Not by the club, but by a pimp who sends them into the club. Basically the charge is that the old managers of atlantis were more closely involved in this process than they would like.

I know girls who came to germany on this path. Lisa, one of my favourite russian girls at Golden Time came to Germany via Human Traffickers. She was already a pro in Russia and knew what they meant when she came to germany to work as a Hostess in a restaurant. She spent a month in an apartment in colgone, and they could not place her in a place to work, as there had been a crackdown on those appartments earlier. She and her friend Dina just took off and looked for their own club to work at. Some of the other girls who came with her were really naive enough to think they were being offere legitimate work.

There is a continuous demand for new prostitutes in Germany. A Large amount of this demand is met by girls entering the job of their own free will. some of the leftover demand is satisfied by "businessmen" who deliver product to fulfill the demand. In this business there is always a dubious underside. The FKK's are one of the best set-ups to make this underside as unnecessary as possible, but there are still people out there working like this.

The old image of girls whose papers are taken away, "broken in" and forced to work and keep none of the money is exaggerated and really a thing for television fiction. But watered down versions of this still happen a lot. In Germany as in every other country. Most of it is done through manipulation instead of brute force.

For example I know one girl who is a 23 Year Old German Citizen, born and bred in Gemany, has all the papers she could ever need. She worked in an Eros center for 3 years and never had real sex once (faked it). She worked for her "boyfriend"/pimp, who also had 5 other girls working for him. as the customers stopped going to the Eros Centers he forced her to go to FKK's. She hated it because she actually had to have sex. this is the first time she got mad at her pimp. How could he love her and expect her to actually screw other guys, not just rip them off (This is how screwed up her head works). She thought about getting out of the business but he demanded 15,000€ payment for freedom. Why? Because this was the established sum among the Pimps of Cologne.

Then this guy was in Jail for a full year. She could have left at anytime, but she didn't. She even kept putting his take into a bank account set aside for him. She was really in love with him and wanted to prove that she could earn the most money for him.

In my career I have known the one or other pimp and this is the method most use. There is a little bit of force when necessary, but usually manipulation of emotions and coersion on that basis. It is impossible to fully get away from it, but the forced style is not apparent in Germany in the FKK's, but the path the women went on to get to these places is not always clear either.

Peter

So Peter, what are your stories for Thailand? This I am curious to know. I have heard there have been problems in the brothels that serve Thai men, but for the girls working the farang scene? Nada.

Mura,

Been to LOS 4 Times, and don't claim to be a huge expert there. But in my time in Bangkok Soapies and in the bar scene in Pattaya I have come into contact with more than a couple of Cambodian, Laotian and Vietnamese Girls. These are all trafficked in one form or another. Traficking does not always include life long pimping, often it is just getting them across the border and into the scene for a fee. Or do you think that the girls in the newbie (Superstar, more Expensive) side of the fishbowl all just happened to ge tthis idea into their head at the same time. That is also one of the reasons why it is often said that they are fresher and newer, but don't always offer the full range of services. Hardly any of us ever find out exactly how girls got into this business, most don't want to know, and if we are treating the girls we are with with respect then we are doing most of what we can.
However, if you constantly complain that there are never any new girls, and the ones that are there are all too old and used, then you are contributing to the demand that fuels trafficking.

Again, I do not purport to be an expert on Thailand, I know Europe and China much better. But the amount of non-thai girls in Thailand is generally a sign of traficking of one form or another.

If you know for sure that this is not the case, then I am more than willing to revise my comments. I always am learning more about the scene.

Peter

A good portion of the Korean and Thai girls working in massage places in the US are in debt with whoever got them a visa. The prices vary but it can be quite a bit. Is that trafficking? I'm not sure. They don't come here explicitily to give handjobs all day long, but once here they need to come up with regular payments. I say it is, but I am friends with a few AMP owners and there is a real seperation between the AMP owners and the visa facilitators.

Peter, you're referring to a phenomenon I've had very little contact with. The only non-Thai I've run into in Thailand was a Khmer girl working in Mandarin. Other than that, they've all been Thai.

I've talked with several Thai girls about how they got started, and they usually have very similar stories: their sister/cousin/friend worked in Bangkok/Pattaya, and on a visit back to the village, told them how much money they could make working in an MP/go-go bar/beer bar and going with farang. So they packed up the bags and they moved to Beverly...

And you point out an important distinction that others have pointed out before: there is a substantial difference between voluntary "trafficking" (getting someone from point A to B for a fee) and involuntary trafficking (slavery, etc.).

I stumbled across this quote in Friday's edition of the SF Chronicle, and thought it quite interesting. The article itself discusses western perceptions of Asian sexuality, but the quote refers to the nature of this thread:

"Guilt for our past ignorance also drives some attempts to redress perceived wrongs, such as Southeast Asian sex trafficking. However, says Dr. David Feingold, who oversees trafficking projects for UNESCO's Bangkok office, "the reality of the industry is often quite different from what's written about, or people's fantasies."

His PBS 2003 documentary, "Trading Women," addresses the many myths that continue to prevail: that Thai prostitution resulted from the Vietnam War, when it had in fact existed as a state-controlled activity from the 1600s until recently; that heartless parents sell their girls into the sex trade (many go voluntarily to the big city to make money, and some get trafficked along the way); and that sex tourism thrives by serving foreigners, particularly Westerners, when, actually, the industry, which peaked in the '80s, is on the decline and trafficked girls don't normally solicit Westerners.

Feingold attributes Western willingness to take the blame partly from the "Suzie Wong fantasy": saving the bar girl with the heart of gold.

Though sexual trafficking is a serious problem, he says, the major forms of child abuse in Southeast Asian are forced begging, or working on fishing boats (where there's a high mortality rate). "There's much less interest in addressing those [other] issues," Feingold says. "People get more excited about sexual trafficking. It's much sexier."

The article is at: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/archive/2004/09/24/easternsex.DTL

Peter29
I have been visiting Thailand for over 20 yeras now and speak Thai so I have had long talks with countless bargirls and go go girls about their lives and the business they are in. I gotta totally agree with Murasaki- The girls we see in the farang oriented bars are all there by choice. There is no possible way a girl who has been enslaved could be trusted to go out of the bars for extended periods of time. These girls show up when and if they want to. Of course their pay is docked if they do not work but that's up to them.

I find it difficult to believe in only 4 trips you have found that many Cambodian and Viet girls. In 20 years I remember one Camdodian and never met a Viet girl working a bar. Many girls identify themselves as Lao- they are in fact Issaan Thai citizens, but call themselves Lao. Very prevalent especially in Pattaya.

There are brothels that cater to Thai dudes that do employ trafficked girls - many underage, many tricked by false promises to go to Bangkok to work in a factory or restaurant. It is these brothels that hide the girls from Cambo, Burma , and the hilltribes. They NEVER leave the brothel and are in fact locked in all day and night. They could not and would not be able to work in the bars of Patpong, Nana, etc.

We will fortunately never be exposed to the truly dark side of the business that exists unless you are agressive in seeking it out with Thai friends.

I am not flaming you. I am just tired of people talking about the fate of the poor Thai bargirl. They have a MUCH higher standard of living than 95% of the other women in Thailand. That is why there is no shortage of volunteers to work the bars. Why would they need to kidnap girls when they are turning away young willing girls every day ??

KM & Murasaki,

I retract my statements then, you are the much bigger experts. But I also make the distinction above quite clearly that trafficking rarely takes the form of kidnapping, and that is in large part a hollywood creation. The girls in German FKK's are free to come and go as they please and are not held by the clubs in any way, but there are tonnes of girls that have been trafficked in one form or another, and usually for a fee.

The sort of prostitution that establishes itself right next to a barracks and did not exist beforehand, and disappears when the soldiers leaves is the sort that I think the law is trying to get rid of.

But I really do remain by my belief that if you are actively complaining about talent levels and lack of new girls all the time you are contributing to trafficking in some form or other. That doesn't mean you should be satisfied with bad service.

I also know that many of the girls I have met in LOS have talked about their international travel and other things that demonstrate that they are better off than most other Thai's. I also know a lot of girls in Germany that are in much better financial shape than a lot of mongers I know.

Peter

The problem is that when anyone uses the term "trafficking of women" it is ALWAYS associated with forced prostitution, slavery, kidnapping, rape, abuse, torture, not being paid, servicing 50 guys a day, living in a dungeon, having travel documents and passports stolen, etc.

It's the same thing with the term “sex tourism.” That term is ALWAYS associated with "child sex tourism" which we all know are two different things entirely.

It is no coincidence either. It is an intentional deception in order to skew and shape the debate on the bigger issue of prostitution in general.

So they say that if you travel for sex, then you are having sex with a child.

Now they are saying if you visit a prostitute while in the military, then she is a sex slave who was trafficked and forced into it.

So with the news items skewed towards those two scenarios and the general public believing them to be true, who is honestly going to stand up and come out AGAINST and try to debate legislation that makes visiting a prostitute in any country, regardless of local laws, illegal?