Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive 01	50		2002/09/19, 09:56 pm

Much of the research on prostitution is crap. Most of the people conducting the research have an axe to grind. They start with the idea that prostitution needs to be stopped, and then find what they want to find. Many are "feminists" who essentially are new Victorians, who want to save the poor misguided prostitutes from us evil men.

For instance, check out the following nutty site:

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/

Given their strong biases, you have to wonder if their research is at all objective. They maintain that prostitutes' lives are ugly, brutish and short, basically. PC feminazis, I think.

There is some good research out there... Some cross cultural studies of prostitute personalities, etc. I can't seem to find any of this stuff on the web at the moment...

If there was a book, "How to Court and Marry a Prostitute, and Live Happily Ever After", what would that book say? In the year I've been here, I've come to realize that tons of people around here would like to know. Some people have maintained that it would be just like any other marriage, but my guess is that there's probably some additional issues to consider... In the long run, does the former business orientation affect marital love? sex? friendship? trust? partnership? health?

In the past, I've been pretty cynical about the long term prospects of hookups with working girls. I'm still pretty cynical. But now, I'm sort've curious about the other side... (No, I'm not in a relationship with a working girl, and not seeking one).

As an example, my guess is that about 99.999999% or relationships with working girls include HUGE trust issues. Those girls are unlikely to trust anyone, especially men. My guess is that a huge job of the boyfriend/husband is to establish trust and to tolerate the wife's constant vigilance around trust issues. Those issues are likely to remain years after she retires. I dunno. Does that sound right?

And just a reminder... Don't get busted!

Dogster, I looked at some of the stuff on that site. I think it would be safe to say that that site is run by a group of women. They all have buzz-cuts, refuse to makeup, and all drive around in cars with rainbow bumper-stickers.

...I almost forgot. I bet they all ware plad too.


That is the most off the wall stuff I have ever seen. Yeah, I have a slight suspicion the is a little bit of feminist agenda being pushed there.

I stand by what I said before. We as mongers don't need to feel sorry for these women. They entered that field of work by making the choice to do so themselves.

Most prostitutes that I have met are lyers, theives and con artists. Now dont you all get your panties in a bunch I am not saying all. You do have to admit though that alot of them play games instead of telling the truth. Sure there is a diamond in the rough but it is rare .... very rare.

I disagree with Ahora about most prostitutes being liars. It is usually their clients who are the liars.

For him also to say that most prostitutes are thieves and con artists also indicates that he needs to raise his level of quality.

I could name quite a few chicas that I would not label as liar, thief, or scam artist, but they certainly do exist in within the group called "prostitutes". LOL -when I substitute politicians, car salesmen, or the barkers on Revolution into the same sentence.

And the prostitutes primary clientele is not the most honest group of people either......married men who lie everyday to their wives.

Even for the diamond in the rough chica who prides herself on honesty, it is better sometimes to lie than tell the truth. Or don't you consider it lying when they tell you how good you are in bed or how happy they are to see you?

All types of people, even prostitutes, hate to be lied to, when it comes to serious emotional relationships.

The incidence and magnitude of a lying tends to be proportional to a person as their lack of respect for you. As one increases, so does the other.

So if you do find the rare, rare, diamond in the rough chica who is totally honest and open with you in the beginning, make sure you never lie to her because the bottom line is that what goes around, comes around.

Back to the question, "How do these women get out of prostitution?"

One I know has bought a hair salon.

One is supposedly saving to go to college but she's well passed her "one year" of working as a prostitute.

One is married to a lawyer, happily or not, I don't know. A beautiful lady indeed.

Another was supported by a married man, but he left to another country and I'm not sure what she does now. Her sisters are married but I don't think they were in the biz like she was.

Another was engaged but claims her fiance fell for her sister intead when he went to meet her family and he's marrying her instead, thus she's returned to being a prostitute.

Another has bought a coffee cafe and she's says it's doing well, she's passed 30+ and needs to another way to make income soon. Somebody manages her business while she continues to work, probably for a year or so more.

Another has gotten married.

All of you, you've made some great points, wonderful reading! You're insightful group of mongers.

I can say most of the prostitutes I've met are liars and hustlers at heart, while they all deep down would like to have a real love they have all sabotaged that dream by lying to me in a major way. They lie to their parents about what they are doing generally and they make the mistake of continuing that pattern with their mates. Not that the guy doesn't know about her work, I'm referring to their pattern of lying to him as well. They don't seem to realize honesty is vital to a lasting relationship.

Their self-worth is extremely low, thus they have no sense of dignity, which is verfied by society. That's why they go elsewhere to work in order to give plausibilty to their fabrication of working as a "waitress".

One thing I believe is: a person is a good as his word. Rather than seeing the value in that, they see the value of a man for what he can provide for them finacially. A traditional lady generally puts much more importance on the honor of a man than his pocketbook, which is the opposite of a hooker. This is understandable if you are living in poverty but as was mentioned many poor ladies would happily marrying a good honest man even if he was poor.

That probably explains why most ex-prostitutes marry a monger because at least they both don't have to explain or lie about their past.

great topic....

Bingo

I don't necessarily consider my CC chica "lying" to her children as a sign of her self low worth. To be sure, she does not think prostitution is a great job. However, as long as it is legal, she has no moral qualm whatsoever making (good) money out of it. In fact, at one point, she looked into buying a massage parlor and run her own sex business, before she decided it might be too risky under the current climate.

But, prostitution is an "adult" business, and understanding these reasonings requires adult experience. And thus, explaining them to her children (or to any children, for that matter) is a different issue.

Now I think about it, prostitutes are not the only people who might "lie" or "hide" about their business from their children. For example, the people who are running porn websites might not tell the truth to their children. And if they don't, it does not mean they have low self worth or esteem. It is just, some things are too complicated and subtle for children to judge or understand.

Nomar

My gut feeling is, it is too burdensome for prostitutes to keep hiding it permanently (or take it to the grave, so to speak). If they know they like to be open about it at some point, then they might rather do it at the onset of the relationships.

Dogster

It is valid to think about the effect of the former business on ex-prostitutes' marital love, sex, friendship, trust, partnership and health. However, (as you know well), it takes two people to form "marital love, sex, friendship, trust, and partnership".If a guy enters into a relationship with a former prostitute with "cynical" attitudes on the long term outcome, then it will never work.

I have certainly seen that prostitutes have issues with "trust". In the bar, they are surrounded by lies, and grew accustomed to distrust men. For that matter, it is safe to say that pros distrust men more than non-pro women. On the other hand, I am not so sure if this is such a bad thing. The truth is, many men (both mongers and non mongers) lie and try to cheat, all the time. If pro women are more knowledgeble about the natures of (most) men than non-pro women, then they could use the wisdom for the purpose of working out on their relationships.

In any case, one reason why dating with a prostitute is thrilling to me is, she is trained to distrust men. So, seeing her show the sign of trusting me gives me a feeling that I achieved something difficult. (Needless to say, I must be able to distinguish sort out lies from honesty).

This is a good thread. It's too bad that we can't have some actual prostitutes, past and present, tell us their stories.

One thing. Although money is only one issue in this life style, on both sides of the gender, it is still a big one. Many of these women have incomes far larger than women their age in a straight job. In fact, their incomes are often greater than most people even in socalled professional fields. If the woman avoids drugs, alcohol, abusive boy friends, and the overall party life she has the potential to save a large sum of (tax free) money over a period of time.

Again, money is just one part of why they are doing this. If they end up as protrayed by so many negative media examples the reasons are certainly not for the lack of income.

Byron...
...But I would guess that those trust issues were there for most of them before they even got into the business. You can see it as a chicken and egg issue, as in what came first, being a prostitute or the lack of trust? My educated guess: the lack of trust came first. It is a stable trait that doesn't start or end with being a working girl. I think most of these women lost faith in men when they were young. They were afraid of those who had power over them, and those who abused/neglected that power. Their early experiences have carried over into adult life as a chronic suspiciousness of other people's motives.

Ultimately, the issue is whether the chica's perception is accurate. Her system of survival depends on recognizing sources of potential harm. But on overload, this system makes these women sensitive to unexpressed intentions of others. They may feel convinced that they trust the accuracy of what they see, but they are especially prone to "false positives". In other words, they will be convinced of some sinister motive on your part (or mens' parts) in situations where it isn't warranted. For instance, you may be doing something kind or enjoyable, and out of the blue, for no obvious reason, she becomes convinced that you've insulted her, or cheated on her, or abandoned her, etc... And by working at a bar, she's chosen an environment that will validate her perceptions. If she ever found herself in a trustworthy environment, she probably would continue to be convinced of a threat, and mistakenly perceive non-existent threats.

So, if the prototypical working girl wants to live happily ever after, my guess is that she's got to re-calibrate her perceptions and attributions at some point. She needs to acknowledge her habitual suspiciousness of sources of intimacy and support, with the subsequent desire to go it alone. She needs to acknowledge her habit of focusing on negative detail in a generally okay situation. She needs to acknowledge that she wants to outthink those who would like to assist forward motion. She needs to notice that the faults that she perceives in others are the ones she fears most in herself.

That OVERLY mistrusting profile fits lots of women. Their vigilance keeps them out of danger but also out of relationships that would increase vulnerability. If the chica can acknowledge when she's at her worst regarding mistrust, and acknowledge that her fears screw up her perceptions at times, then she's got a shot at long term intimacy and friendship. If not, well, anybody who marries her is essentially marrying World War Three.

I think the Lucky Monger who hitches up with her needs to be unphased by all the mistrust, and remain consistent while under scrutiny and attack. These girls need to have their subjective fears taken seriously even though they seem to be spreading an utterly off-target false alarm. A minute examination of her fears (by her, with someone else present) is valuable, because she will ultimately be able to admit that she can't determine which fears are imaginary and which have some basis in fact. A great deal of her suspicious thinking will go away when the issue is brought under close, neutral, trustworthy examination. If the dude is up to that task, and the chica can look honestly at herself, then a Hollywood style ending is more likely.

The chances of this happening? Uhhh... Close to zero. Maybe 1 in 100. The chances probably increase if Monger and Mongee have strategies for dealing with all that mistrust.

Dogsta

I honestly don't know answers to most of the questions you posed here. I don't know if their suspicious nature is egg or chicken. I don't know how detrimental their nature is to the long-term relationship.

In fact, you must remember these TJ chicas are Mexicans/Latinas before they are prostitutes. Their cultural backgrounds might even be a bigger reason for their dramatic/passionate/overly jealous behaviors toward men.

All I can tell you is this. My CC chica told me she was trusting me, and it was a big deal for her to tell me that (until I was busted, as you know).

Futbolito I have no problem that you disagree with me but please read again. I said MOST prostitutes I have MET. Alot of guys turn a blind eye to the chica they like and dont see it.

I will be in TJ next thursday through sunday and will see if i can get my chica to respond to alot of your questions.
The trust issue does run deep. Mine does also have a trust issue with me, which is why i will not mention her name.
she has always been a woman of her word. She does not drink or do drugs, which is why she does so well for herself.
I do tend to know more than alot of mongers because of the trust issue.
It is so very sad though that some of these chica's will do almost anything to get out of ZN. One got married to a guy from SD who works at Jack in the box and makes almost no money, but at least it would be better than a life in the Zona. She was partially educated, could have gone to college, except that her father spent her college money on Putas.
She had stated that she wanted to work until she ran into him while working...... that never happened.
So many sad stories that have come from this area.
Bryon, i will be there next week, and would like to have the opportunity to talk with you in person, and buy you a cervesa.
Slick

I dont agree that they will do almost anything to get out of the zona. What I see is they will sometimes do everything to make you think that but screw you in the end. Trust factor is probably the big issue. They have so many guys saying they will take them out of the life. I will ask you one thing. Out of the thousand putas in tijuana how many do you actually know that have married and left the zona never to return.

Byron, if you'll review my thread, I didn't equate lying and low self-esteem as being quite the same thing. Lying is something you do with yourself or to another, but low self-esteem comes from how you and others perceive you. Most prostitutes I've known have not been good at keeping their word. Sure they may be honest about a lot of things, just like you and I may be, but I'm talking about promises made between them and me. So, I lost faith in them because of those lies and all I can say is: you have to walk in a person's shoes before you could really understand them.

"you have to walk in a person's shoes before you could really understand them."

Just as long as I don't have to wear those freakin stilleto spike heels...

"Out of the thousand putas in tijuana how many do you actually know that have married and left the zona never to return."

LOL, because it all depends on how you look at it....Out of all the hombres in tijuana, how many do you actually know that have left the zona, never to return.

Life in the zona can be pretty good for both genders.

My point exactly is that they are not tragic victims as some of the hombres like to think. They dont want to be rescued on the most part. I know lots of people in Mexico with kids who get along ine without selling their ass.

I agree 100 percent Ahora.

So many mongers think poor girl. She has been through alot. Well so have the rest of the mexican population.
These girls love to tell you sob stories about why they work there.

I see a lot of girls playing my friends out like a fucking flute. And you cant tell these guys nothing because they will not listen.
Their reply always starts with "well she told me"
And I always stop them right there.

I think Jaracho said it best Just enjoy the zona for what it is and get out.

Milky

dogster has come close, but no one has addressed the theory that the girls are the majority income producer and sometimes the only producer for the extended family. The family won't let them quit. The family pressure to work every chance she can so they can sit home and watch TV can never be overcome. Go to work or stay home and get ragged on by the family and your mother? Everyday, Everyweek, Everymonth. I'm beginning to understand why so many girls turn to alochol and drugs.

This truely is one of the oldest questions in this business. I have had my share of discussions with the girls and favoritas I had been with.
I think there are many reasons why girls go into the business and these are different in each country.
Besides psychological issues as the reason to enter this job, are sociological ones, too. In the US the reason could be drugs, in Mexico to support children.
The Mexican culture is fucked up in many ways. Girls often get knocked up because condom use is not encouraged, but the farthers (also too young often) are not held accountable. Of course we mostly see the uneducated farmgirls in TJ, the other classes probably have other ways to deal with the situation.
Secondly, there is a mass-denial in Mexico. Whole families depend on the work of these girls, but nobody seems to question how a factory worker or waitress in TJ can send $200 each week home to mommy and daddy.
One could look at all this from a freudian perspective and say that these girls repeat the life they knew from their families, but there is a huge sociological point to the story, too.
The one psychological clue why girls enter the business I hear a lot is past sexual abuse. All the girls I have come close enough to talk about things like that in TJ, told me about this. My ex-novia didn't even consider being fucked in the ass by her teacher when she was 13 sexual abuse.
One psychological theroy is that a prostitute relives her past rape or sexual abuse with each client.
Some chicas I have fucked really made me believe there is something to this theory. THe sick thing is, that it mostly turned me on...
But that is my problem...

Right--we covered the psychological theory here at various times, and on this thread, I think. The prostitution supposedly provides a way to master the helplessness of the earlier situation. Whatever abuse got them into this predicament, some of them sure as hell love to fuck. Personally, I'm more than happy to be their sex therapist. But that is my problem...

Milky--does this mean that we shouldn't believe your sob stories? (2 in the last month).

I just had a sick idea for a recipe:

Guacalamole dip
(crushed avocados and lemon juice mixed with Dogster's secret sauce). High in protein.

Yours in whoring,
D.

Dogster
The girls i date are ones i met at Pulgies or discos. I date Real gurls Not whores.
Don't you follow my posts ?

I will try your Guacalamole dip it sounds good.
Mail me sum

hahahaha
Milky

One and only one thing is true. All of us Mexicans, from a historic point of view, are all bastards. Our female ancestors where raped by european men, mostly spanish, and our male ancestors where moslty slaughtered. We Mexicans are all "Hijos de Putas". "Mestizos" is the politcal correct term, which means we are a result of Spanish/European - Indian mix. Our female ancestors where taken away from their families against their own will, and repeatetly raped and raped by countless "conquistadores". These "pioneer putas" gave birth without ever knowing who the father was leaving a big void as to the "father figure" with the children. In our society, it is very common that either you, your neighbor, your cousin, or your schoolmate grew up without a father, or with an abusive stepfather that proyected a "Macho" or "machismo" personality. Our whole culture is based on this. It's our Nature. Their Nature. The Puta's Nature.

I have talked and had long conversations with hundreds of prostitutes, and yes, superfically they proyect a resistance against intamacy, against love, against understanding. They reflect an anger against men and against the world. They distrust us men. That's just the way they where taught and raised. They look at men like our indian ancestores looked at the Spanish conquistadores hundreds of years ago. As a threat, as rappers, as in-forced providers. But deep down, they are yearning and still looking, like lost puppies, for that missing father figure, most of them have already lost hope and will never get out of the business. They will just hold on as much as they can and than just vanish away without anyone ever noticing or caring. So next time you're with a mexican puta, try to understand their sitiation before you judge and do our say something stupid. As Abe Lincoln said: "You may forget something someone did, you may forget something someone said, but you will never forget how they made you feel".

Enjoy, Understand and Respect the "Zona Norte".

The Masterater

PS: If you are intrested in understanding our mexican culture, and the whole "machismo deal" read "Laberintos de la Soledad" by Octavio Paz.

Masterater
I might just do that.
Is it in English ?
I saw a special last night on PBS on how much the whiteman fucked over the mexicans that owned property in the usa after the war ended.
i was a great show they also had a special on border cities and how texas border cities are having major water problems etc..
I will look out for the show again so i can watch it all instead of parts of it

Thanks again
Milky

Milky,
Barnes & Noble has it, it's called " The Labyrinth of Solitude", from Octavio Paz. About $13.00 US DLLS.

Masterater

-Crymilky, you know the whiteman stole that land fair and square. Get over it.


-Ok guys, how do you get these perspective from the bar girls? Do you ask them, and if so WHY? I just can't see asking these girls how they got into it, or how they are going to get out. I don't go to TJ to get bummed out. I go there to have fun.

When they do tell their sob-stories do you think they curtail them to each specific monger to get more sympathy? For instance would a bar-girl give me that "looking for a father figure" type story, or would she be much more likely to try something else since I'm about the same age as the girls working? ...maybe it's just me, but I think most of what they(meaning all women) say is complete bullshit

Yea Snapper, and we are getting it back! Little by Little, Year by Year. Inmigrante by Imigrante.

The Masterater

Does that mean that all these girls mainly supporting their poor families are not allowed to quit but they still have money to throw away on dope and these girls spend alot of money. Not all on drugs but on useless crap.

Masterater, immigration is a good thing. The United States needs a lot of day labors.

the first line of that post, and this one are both tongue in check statements

Now back to my question. Do you guys ask these girls how they got into prostitution, and how they plan on getting out? ...and if so why do you ask?

Snapper, apart from this hobby, I have many other hobbies as well. For example, I have played basketball all my life, even up to college level, I still play ball with the guys every single night. So, by logic, basketball is my "other hobby". Saying this, I keep up to date on the NBA, College Basketball, International Basketball, (those damn Argentinans are damn good), National Basketball (Mexico) and local Basketball (Mexicali and TJ). Keeping up with statistics, players and basketball history makes me a better player.

Same thing with our little hobby we have my dear fellow hobbiest. The more information I have on it, the better I am at playing it.

Also, talking to the girls makes me feel good and even younger because they simpley pay atention.

THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.........

The Masterater

Slick 1

I will be in TJ sometime this weekend. Once I figure out when I will be there, I will inbox you so that we could meet.

Bluelight

I definitely think (at least) some Mexican girls carry the sense of obligation to take care of their parents, whether they are prostitutes or non pro. I just don't know of any prostitute whose parents actually pressure them to stay in business.

I talked with my CC chica about how her parents viewed her job. She did not initially tell them about her job for three years. Her mother became suspicious when she visited her house and found her clothes. The mother asked her "are these clothes you wear at work?". Then the mother stopped asking any further. The chica thought she was afraid to find out the truth. A couple of months later, the chica told the mother she was a prostitute. She said, they both cried. The mother couldn't say anything about her job, but she does not like it. There was a time when the chica tried to quit, and the mother was all encouraging and cooperative (but her retirement did not last long). Her father never talked about it with her, even though he must know it. I get the impression that their parents are embarrased that they see their daughters in prostitution. But, they seem to feel powerless on the issue because they knew she was doing it partly for them (my chica tells me they are dirt poor 'even by the Mexican standard').

Still, in my chica's case, it seems solely up to her to decide whether or when to quit.

Masterater

A great post. Mexcan machismo may not be as bad as husbands burning wives in India, but it is still blatantly discriminating and oppressive against women. If Mexico had the moral/legal system that makes men accountable for their actions even to a half of what have been placed in the US, then the number of women entering prostitution would (probably dramatically) drop.

Basically, the Mexican system and its machismo culture is an extremely convenient system for those who have power (i.e. men). The reasonings like "it is our nature" and "it has been this way for centuries" would not cut it for long. For one thing, nobody from outside was watching them in the past. Conversely, the people in Mexico were not exposed to other ideas that existed in other parts of the world. With advancement of information technology, it won't stay this way forever.

Ultimately, however, the change must come from inside, and from the people in power for the sense of justice (just like how slavery was abandoned in the US).

Byron...Look foreward to it
Slick

anyone have first hand experience with a mother pressuring her daughter to work?

This is an awesome thread and great reading. You know, I'll bet TJResearcher has answers, or at least insights, into many of these questions. Maybe we should invite her to another chat or invite her to chime in on this thread.

Bingo,
This is for you because you are the only monger who seems to know who I have been living with for the last 8 months.
You can find the real thing in the zona but you must speak spanish or be willing to learn.If you can really talk to them you will see they are just like everyone else.They want what is best for themselves and their families but you can be part of that family too.Don't give up,keep a open mind and heart.
I don't know if I have the real thing because I am 30 years older than her but I know this.She now can speak english,has a drivers license and car and a real job.She no longer has to ever do what she hated to do just to survive.You know what she looks like so you know she could have made a fortune doing what these girls do.The girls who hate what they are doing are really the good ones for you in the zona.Good luck.

Looks like we’ve got a Pachuco in our midst! Masterater, thanks for your contribution.

I read Labyrinth of Solitude many years ago and I’m glad you mentioned it here. Paz was of course marvelous, and deeply insightful.

I’m sure that the last 500 years of European conquest and genocide have had some of the effects you discuss, not just in Mexico but in all the Americas. Such effects are of course sugar coated, minimized or buried by most assimilated Americans. The deleterious effects of cultural and physical genocide are transmitted, like a blueprint, from generation to generation.

I’m very interested in all sorts of cultural and historical issues, and how they impact people’s lives today. I’m certain that not all who study patterns within Mexican culture would agree with the “we are all bastards” sentiment, or that the character of Mexican prostitution was determined fully by the European Conquest.

First off, what about the nature of Mexican (i.e., Mesoamerican) cultures before the European conquest? The ancient Maya and Aztecs were, for instance, both brilliant and brutal. The Mayan civilization, for instance apparently ravaged Olmec culture in much the same way that the Romans brutalized the Greeks and the Etruscans. The blood of conquest and loss poured through Mexico long before the Europeans reached its shores. The decimation of families and cultures did not begin in the fifteenth century.

Second, what about the fact that there are plenty of intact Mexican families, that function differently than you describe? The fact that people are resilient, and form extended families despite their ancestor’s history of oppression, seems to contradict some of what you say. Mexican culture is highly resilient. And the number Mexican men who work their asses of for their families, at all costs, is phenomenal. I’m not so sure that father figures are lacking in Mexico.

Third, what about the fact that prostitution exists world wide, and the fact that Mexican prostitutes have many things in common with these other prostitutes? If a prostitute looks at a man as the great oppressor, fine, but people with that mistrusting attitude exist in all cultures.

Masterater, I’m wondering. How do YOU view the Euro-Americans who visit prostitues today? In you eyes, do you see them as oppressors? Rapists? As a threat?

Anyway, I’m glad you posted here. Best, D.

MrBill

Ya know, I'm not sure that TJResearcher has the answers we are looking for. I'm sure she has a point of view and some insights, and it would be nice to hear them. But I think she proved herself to be a bit naive, an interested outsider who chose to observe a complicated scene. She seemed to take chica self-reports at face value, which is a huge problem. Self-reports are often not accurate, as the famous Milky (2002) study of working girls demonstrates.

European conquest - ok, what are you talking about. The Mexican-American war(1846-1848), or the battles between France and México(1861-1867)?

-If you are talking about the battles between France and México, México won. In 1867 Maximilian was executed and Juarez was re-elected.


-If you are talking about the Mexican-American War remember that the United States had a little tiff called the Revolutionary War, where we faced off against the largest empire in the world, and that ended just 64 years prior to the Mexican-American war. The Revolutionary War wasn't exactly a walk in the park. Our women were raped, our children were murdered, and our homes and villages were burned.

Since the Mexican American War the United States has been in The Civil War, The Spanish-American War, World War I, World War II, The Korean War, The Vietnam War, Desert Strom, and now Operation Enduring Freedom.

Since the Mexican American War México has been at war France, then the Mexican Revolution witch lead to a Civil War(witch ended in 1926). Nothing since 1926.

I just wanted to compare the two nations to show that America has constantly been at war and has always remain the worlds economic super-power. Now why hasn't México gotten to be a strong first world country? They definitely have the resources in oil, gold, and tourism. They should have been able to make themselves into a industrial leader by now.

I think that the problem lies deep inside the political structure of the Mexican government. Blaming the white-man as a leading cause for Mexican women going into prostitution is ridiculous, and nothing more than playing a race card in order to shift the blame from where it belongs. The fact that the Mexican Revolution lead straight to Civil War should be a big hint were the blame belongs.

I have had the experience with a mother pressuring her daughter to work.And her grandmother, her brothers, her sisters, and her father. They owe there whole existance to a child of 14 who became a whore for them. At first I had the thought of just buying them off,say.. I pay them 5 years of her incum if they would leave her alone. Meaning not calling her to send money. not standing in front of her crying and begging for money.....Later on I realized that she is hooked into it also. She would not leave even though she can. She has got to the point that she wants to do 10 guys a night.

Fellow hobbiest, I'll be in Tijuana this coming Friday TCOB, maybe some of you will be around AD or CC, let me know and we can pick up this thread with a couple of beers and who knows, maybe play conquistadores with some ladies. I plan to be there between 4 or 5 in the PM.

The masterater

Masterator,

I liked your post. And your book recommendation is a good one. But I think you give too much credit to the Europeans for fucking things up. They certainly did not help the situation, but, as Dogster noted, that whole women stealing and family breaking thing was going on centuries before the Europeans arrived.

La Malinche, so vilified by Mexicans, was already torn away from her family, and put in a position of servitude with another tribe, long before Cortez arrived. The idea that she betrayed her people is a myth. Who did she betray? All of the tribes hated each other. There was no group cohesion. Cortez never would have subjugated the Aztecs if it were not for the fact that other tribes gladly joined him in sticking it to the Mexica. The Mexica were universally hated and the other tribes were more than happy to sign up with what looked like a winner. La Malinche just hooked up with the latest strong man. He just happened to be european. She was just doing what comes natural to many women, look for a relationship, or relationships, that further their economic well being.

In Mexico it is common to vilify Malinche and Cortez and glorify Chuatehmoc. But the truth is that it was just a regime change. From one bad one to another. Where the Europeans really fucked over the natives was by bringing over all of the disease.

Good info Batster,

I was just trying to make a point and set up the bases or roots for the "machismo" attitude with us mexicans. I don't blame the Europeans or the whiteman in any way. As to the US culture, I really admire you guys for many atributes you have that are scarce in many cultures. Things as unity, fearlessness,integritiy, intelegance, education orientaded, resortfullness, your economic and political strenght, etc (to many to name) are attibutes you inhereted from your mostly Irish and European ancestors. At the same time, I don't like the arrogance that many of you display as a society. (nobody is perfect).

Byron: I think you are the only one that got my point, and it's true, the lack of a good, intelegent and honest government in Mexico is mostly to blame and also, time being the best healer, Mexico is changing, and I believe for the better.

Snapper: I was refering to "La Conquista which happened around 1530" Any war that happened after that we were already "Mestizos" (bastards).

Byron: Again, I was also just trying to make a point about machismo. But like you said, we our alot more family orrientated than many other countries. including the US. I guess it's because 95% of the population is catholic. But thats a whole diffrent thread. It's just this defense mechanisim "Machismo" us mexicans have because of our own, unconsious insecurities we have as a culture.

Well, anywho's, who's going to LA ZONA this Friday??

The masterater

Masterater,

I have lived in Mexico full time since 98. Guadalajara, DF, Chetumal, Tijuana. When I was in the DF, I had alot of contact with the Government. Particularly people in the Secretaria de Gobernacion and the Secretaria de Relaciones Exteriores ( Zedillos people and then briefly with Fox's people) And you do not know how right you are about the root of all evil in Mexico being the government. The PRI is almost 100% responsable for putting Mexico in the condition it is. Mexico should have developed at the same rate as Western Europe or Asia following WWII. But PRI kept the country in poverty by supporting an economic system that benefits a few key people and nobody else. There is no sense of "for the common good"

Bu the change needed is way off. I used to think I would see it in my life time. I am not sure now. I was at Foxes victory celebration at the Angel de Indpendencia the day he won. The emotion in the air was palpatable. It was one of the highlights of my life. Every one felt hope. I still like Fox. And he has an almost impossible job, but he has done nothing to change the political-corporate structure set up by the PRI. The PRI is going to retake the presidency in 2006 and resume with business as usual, because Fox has not spent the political capital necssary to make structural changes. He is too worried about his popularity.

I work in Mexico every day, I deal with government officials frequently. I talk with others in the business community. I can tell you that no one feels that change is on the horizon. I hope I am wrong, Mexico deserves better.

But I am way off topic.......

Hey Masterator - you replied to everyone else except me. I feel neglected, abandoned and confused. How come people on this site are so MEAN? Bastard!

I didn't know you were so sensitive, Dogsta.

I am fairly sure Masterator misspoke when he mentioned my name for the second time. In that, he is talking about Mexican men's orientation toward their families, and that sounds more like a reply to your post.

I was just messin' around. Perhaps it is true that all Mexicans are batsters.
Dogsta

As I wrote somewhere else, there are (at least) two separate social factors that contribute to women entering prostituiton in Mexico. (1) Mexico is poor. (2) Mexico treats women (unfairly) badly.

Mexico's economic reform might take beyond our life time. There is no quick fix on this. Ultimately, the nation must improve its education, as technology is what separates today's industrial from non-industrial nations.

But, changing the machismo mentality is an issue that can be dealt with nation's social consciousness. It does not require the sort of infrastructure necessary for economic reforms. What they need are legistrations that work "toward" equality between men and women. (I am not here talking about US feminism standard "equality", for which Mexico is far far behind.) Therefore, this reform might be more rapidly done if there is a will within the society.

At some point, Mexicans must realize that they should no longer tolerate machismo that produces abusing husbands and irresponsible fathers in abundance. As I wrote above, if Mexico had the legal/moral system that forces fathers to pay child support to mothers, then the number of women who must choose between poverty and prostitution will (probably dramatically) drop.

Sr. Dogster,

You really hurt me with your insensitive use of my handle. What do you mean by " all Mexicans are batsters"? If you are saying that I am a bastard I am really offended. I am not a bastard. I know exactly who my mother is. LOL

Dogboy, I don't know why masterater did not respond to your post. But I usually don't respond to your posts because I do not want people to compare my mediocre ramblings with your well crafted essays. I like everyhting you and Byron post. You guys are definitely good writers. Head and shoulders above most of us.

About the only topic that I think I have a good grip on is Mexican Politics and Mexican culture and Society. Mexico and Mexicanas have been my hobby for many years.

Byron, You are absolutely right on both points. But it will be a long time before we see change.
In Mexico there is a saying" Del dicho al Hecho hay mucho trecho" crudely interpreted as "easier said than done".

Batsterwhoisconfusedonfathersday

Thanks. Great post Batster!

(OK, S, I admit it. Batster and Dogster are the same Poster.)

Dogster, Byron's right. The secound "Byron" reference was intended for you. Will you forgive me, pertty please with cream and cherry on top??

And Dogster, who do you think you are!!, Only the masterater can call myself or any Mexican a bastard.

Are you just bullshitting that Dogster and Batster are the same poster?

Well anywho's, FOR THE THIRD FRICKING TIME:: WHO IS GOING TO THE ZONA THIS FRIDAY???

Masterater

Zona all weekend fellow mongers, flying out of Seatle this afternoon, be there by 8... AB/CC
Slick

While I am sure Dogster would like to be me( Yeah Right!!!!) I can assure everyone that I, Batster, am a separate sapient entity. Dogster does exist. I have personally have never seen him, but I know other hombres who have. And I have faith that one day he will reveal himself .....let me rephrase that!!!I have faith that one day he will appear in all his glory at a La Tropa convention.

Masterater

I will be at AB around 6:30 tomorrow night (that's PM, in case Epa2 does not understand it). You are Mexican, and what else should I look for?

Me. I am usually the worst looking monger when milkman is not in the house.

Slick says he will be there. If Dogsta is man enough, he should come join us. Then, we will have a featured match between Dogsta and superdud in 10-round arm wrestling.

Tuff guy Byron
I will be hitting that La mesa disco saturday night whats up with you ?
Let me know

masterater where are you out of ?
Los Angeles or San Diego ?>
i am looking for a local tuff guy to hang at some of the Norteno clubs in San Diego.

Let me know
take care
Milky

PapaC talks about a chica whose family members constantly beg her for money. I am not surprised to hear that. But, what is chicken and egg, here? Is she in prostitution because she is begged for money? Or is she begged for money because she is in prostitution?

PapaC says, his chica is herself "hooked to" the business. I am not surprised to hear this either. Obviously she is in this for money. With the money, she also gets power and control over her family. Alternatively, she might be driven by the sense of obligation to her family. In either case, it is safe to assume the moment she quits, her family will stop begging her for money. More importantly, if she decides to quit, what could her family member possibly do to stop her quitting? Probably little to none.

There are probably families whose members pressure a prostitute to stay in business. It is possible, for example, if a mother is a former prostitute, then she might tell her daughter to "take her turn". I am just guessing here. Either way, I agree that family dynamics (power and/or obligation) plays a role in chicas' decision to quit. The definining question here might be, "can a chica quit on her own will (despite the family dynamics), if she chooses to?" I don't know how many % of chicas say NO to this question.

There are other (minor) reasons that "pull" chicas to business. A few months ago, CC chica took a two-week vacation at her hometown. When she came back, she told me she actually "missed" the atmosphere at CC. This is from the girl who keeps telling me she dislikes her job (because it's dirty and risky). She said, she missed seeing me and her amiga chicas in the bar. She might also have missed being admired by her regular customers, and missed the thrill of encountering new customers. (She didn't say these, I am guessing here.) Bars' glitzy "party atmosphere" might not be a strong reason enough to keep chicas in business forever, but it could act as a (sort of) tranquilizer while they are in business.

Byron, I'll be there around 5 or 6 in the PM (AB), yes as you know I am mexican, I 'll be wearing cockie pants and perhaps a light blue shirt.

Milkman, I'm from Mexicali, (check my Mexicali posts), If you're man enough to come to the dessert, I 'm your huckleberry, cowboy....

Masterater

Just fuckin great
Your the tuff guy I have been looking for.
I love Mexicali and getting chicas there is a lot easier than getting chicas in TJ.
What discos do you go too ?
The girl to loser ratio is ridulous!
I have hit Mojcates , Scratch , Caprichos ?( Sp) the one right across the street from Scratch.
The chicas in Mexicali and much hotter and more educated than the ones in TJ

I want to hit some nice nortenos clubs while i am there too.
I plan on taking a bunch of guys from the board there next month perhaps we will hook up.
i am not much into the whore bars , more into the discos.
You are mexican yes ?

Last time I went I bumped into a bunch of tuff guys coming out of Mojcates and we hit tacos Fiesta ( great food by the way ) and they were telling me that the zona and Bar San Diego are for mostly laborers and that you can find plenty of free pussy in Mexicali as the girls greatly outnumber the guys.


They were right !!!
Viva La Mexicali !!
Milkman

Damn. I have other plans for Friday evening. I guess that means that Byron will have to mud-wrestle Superdud all by himself. (or at least try to explain ERA). Byron, if any famosa legendary women show up at AB, please say hello for me. And don't get busted... Please give my regards to doc holiday masterater and friends.

Milkman, I'm glad you like my town, but the thing is, I am a little bit more hombre than you think, I try to stay away from Molca's, Capricco's, Scratch, etc. Every time I go there, I seem to run into either my wife's friends or somebody she might know. Mexicali is a very small town. So I shine my boots and hit places like The San Diego Bar, which what your friends tell you is BULLSHIT, this is no hang-out for maquila labor guys, it's mostly a mongers crowd and very often you find heavy politicians, and heavy executive guys here. Very pertty gilrs working here, I just went there last week and enjoyed Laura very much.

There are some nice, discreet places at el Centro, La Zona, for Mexicali, EL NORTEÑO, LA TERRAZA, LA TAVERNA, alot of University pussy here, and if you don't catch anything, you have Madonnas and MEU - MEU close by.

Anyway, next time you como down, let me know, and I'll give you the personal Masterater tour!

By the way, are you Mexican-American, White-boy, Pocho???

The Masterater

Like I said, I was at LA ZONA TJ this past Friday, and the place was just crazy. Some guys from New England and Boston where there, and one Old Fart got up on stage, danced like a fool and got bare naked on stage! We all boo'd him and got him off the stage. They where all down here for the Patriots/Chargers game. Poor bastards, they came all the way down here and got there asses kicked.
Didn't find any of my fellow hobbiest, was there until 7:00 PM, had to go back to Mexicali.

I spent some time with this beautiful girl, which calls herself GEO, or GIO, she's from Culiacan, about 5'5, brown hair, Jennifer Lopez ass, she likes to dance with guys on stage, very classy. Can't find a post on her. Does she go my another name??
The masterater