Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive 01/08 - Aug 2001	20		2001/05/10, 05:28 pm

Meeting Nice Girls

I thought, from time-to-time, that I'd like to hook up with (live with) a chica. My only results have been to waste my money until I figured out they were taking me. But it's my own fault.

One time, while traveling in a "taxi de ruta", I was talking - in my fractured spanish - to an hombre about my desire to retire in Mexico, and to meet the right woman, etc. He said that a good place to meet ladies was on Revolucion. I replied that I wasn't interested in a "mujer de la calle" and he replied that he meant ones like waitresses that worked in the many restaurants. So I filed it for reference.

Last Wednesday, I was walking near the zona, looking for a specific Mixteco (Indian) family that I have, on occasion, purchased a "big sack of beans & rice" for. I was looking for the oldest son (11). I had promised him a "football cap" (looks like a pigskin), because he was jealous when his cousin received one. I never found him that day, but I found his mom, sitting on the step, surrounded by filthy toddlers, begging & selling gee gaws or whatever (her usual occupation). So anyway I gave her the hat to give to her son. As this slow start suggests, I wasn't thinking about women & sex (She's married, unattractive, her oldest daughter is 12, and her cute 22 year-old niece just returned to Oaxaca). I felt sorry for her (the zona is not the only place where I'm easy) and asked her if she like some tacos (I knew there was a "3 tacos for a buck" place nearby - I'm too cheap to spend real money). I asked her how many and she said six (keep in mind, that as bad as my spanish is, many of the indians speak much less). Knowing that she had more kids than that, I told her that she needed more and we arrived at a new number - 15.
I told her to wait and I'd be right back.

I went to the restaurant (they weren't busy), and was approached by a young (she'd be 16 up here) waitress, followed by one I'd seen before (who knew I'd tip her decently). The young one asked me what I wanted, and I replied "15 tacos - with everything - to go" (in spanish). As she started to mumble back my order, the older waitress beat her to it, & turned around and relayed it to the kitchen, so I paid her the 50 pesos (+10 peso tip). Then I realized the young one was confused, and I felt bad about, so I asked her where he was from and how many years she'd lived in Tijuana and in what neighborhood. She replied "one month". I asked her if she lived with her "papas" and she said "no hay papa" (which, although it sounds like "I am illegitimate" means "my father died" ). So I persisted and asked if she lived with her mom, an she said her mom lived in (city of origin) and that she was living "sola" (alone or unmarried, depending on usage).
So I the asked "how old ARE you ?" and she said 26. (OK I finally caught on, this was no child.) I asked her if she had kids, and she sheepishly replied "one - a six year-old son".

Well a couple of month's ago, K-mart had the mother-of-all-sales for pencils (20 for 39 cents) and spiral bound notebooks (17 cents each !) and, knowing a few indian families in Tijuana, I bought 100 notebooks. I gave about 25 to my current favorita (9 kids live in her house) and I had planned to give the rest to the indians (each has a gazillion kids), so I am replete with notebooks & pencils (my kids are in their 30's). So I told her about it and offered to bring her pencils and notebooks for her son. She seemed shy about it but accepted, then asked me when I was returning to Tijuana and I said Sunday. She said she was working Sunday from 8 to 8 (any girl that works 12 hours a day in a restaurant is no hooker). So I told her I'd bring them.

What a find! The down side of this is it's not for me. I'm simply more than twice her age. That day I was wearing my "crazy old gringo bum" disguise (the cops and the rateros totally ignore me). But my "accidental encounter" has caused me to file the method for future reference.

Pauncho

p.s. When I went back Sunday, she no longer worked there. "Strike while the iron is hot", lads!

I can't quite follow. First you say the women were taking you, then, as an example, you tell us this heart-wrenching story of a love that was meant to be, with this down-trodden but beautiful waitress, which fell apart at the last minute. She wasn't an example of people who take you for money and nothing else, was she?

Anyway, I personally think that "picking up" women is a skill. It's a social skill. Different cultures require different techniques, to be sure, but there are some cross-cultural generalizations that can be made. So, I'm going to talk and talk and talk about that subject. This is why they called me "Book Guy" way back when I first got my nick-name. The following is a monster post. Warning, longwinded diatribe.

The biggest generalization, I think, is that you have to play the hand you are dealt. Looks-wise, money-wise, etc. etc., there is no magic bullet. For example, I think it's a myth that women want a rich guy. There are relatively rich guys out there, with nice clothes and fast cars, who simply end up being the "playtoy" of hot-looking manipulatirixes who don't actually like the guy, they like the money. They probably don't fuck very often; they probably don't have a very committed emotional bond; and the girl probably has a well-hung Harley biker who she fucks on the side. But then again, there are ALSO rich guys who have panache, and charm, and end up being the "great catch" that all the women fantasize about, who fuck many of the chicks that are hot-looking to them, partly by flashing their expensive car and newly whitened teeth, yes, but also partly because they have something that the other rich guys DON'T have. So these examples demonstrate, to me at least, that being rich isn't ALL it takes. In fact, I might even go so far as to say, that being rich might in general be more of a DETRIMENT than a benefit, in the act of picking-upping, simply because it cubby-holes the guy into the role of "playtoy" and not "intense partner."

Anyway, other magic bullets in our culture, don't work as well in our culture as the television wants us to think, either. Being very wealthy, being very tall, having a great-looking face, being the "leader" of a small group of men (alpha male), being the funniest man on the block: all of these are double-edged swords, and for each guy I've seen who has used one of these supposed advantages to get all the free pussy he'd ever want, I know of a few other men who have these supposed advantages but aren't able to get laid in Adelita's with a fistfull of Ben Franklins.

So, I think it isn't a matter of who you are. I think it's a matter of how you open the door. Because we all know, relationships are a matter, in large part, of what gets somehow started. Friendships that go way back, simply because the participants were buddies when their mommies were changing their diapers, are friendships that stick together regardless of the relative compatibility of the two participants. Getting something started up, is the trick, the thing we need to learn, if we're going to land us a chica who is pleasing to us. And I'd go farther -- I'd say, that in general, and even more so in a third-world situation like Mexico than in a manipulo-world situation like the USA -- the thing women WANT out of their men, more than anything else, is the ability to initiate. (Well, maybe I shouldn't say, "the thing women want"; maybe I should say, "the thing women are most likely to respond to." Because we all know, women "want" a rich, tall, good-looking, sensitive, caring, committed partner. But we also know, they'll fuck the Harley biker ... and then "end up" in a relationship with someone like him, and rationalize AFTER THE FACT that they must "love" him ... I mean, they fucked him, after all, right? And they aren't SLUTS who just fuck someone they DON'T love, right? Note female mental processes ... heh ...)

Anyway, what I'm saying here, is that goin' up and down Revo trolling for nice local girls to date, is all well and good, if you KNOW HOW to end up dating those girls. But in my former manifestations of myself, I could have walked Revo all day and all night and never had a conversation with anyone except the street girls who press themselves onto me. Because I used to never APPROACH other people. I'm still not good at it, and I didn't even realize I wasn't doing it at all until I had the dumb luck of hanging out with this stranger who was good at it.

Let's take women out of the equation for a bit. Ever know someone who doesn't have many friends, but seems like an OK guy? He's kind of a drip, maybe, although if you get right down to it he's reliable, and very determined to do the right thing. He plays his guitar at home and is turning out to be very good at it, eventually, but it's only very seldom that someone actually hears him play guitar for them, because he's too shy to bring it out to someone else's house, and Lord knows nobody ever goes to his house. He sits at home on a Saturday night teaching himself a new riff on the guitar, or he heads down to the local strip joint where he knows he can get some puta if he pays through the nose. He eventually starts to display a bit of annoyance and irritation toward the female gender, partly because of his own failure to get civilian women to respond positively to him. Given that he's not really a monger, since he still has some personal conflicts with the idea of prostitution, he lives in mute minor anger, but he suppresses it whenever he's interacting with normal folks because he knows his own meager personal life isn't really their concern. His job might be fascinating or it might be boring, but either way he's going to be doing it, or an advanced version of it, thirty years from now.

Well, that's one type of guy. The opposite of him, is the sort of guy who can land a nice young lady for a party, or for a date, or for a one-night stand. He's a bit annoyingly show-offy. His guitar skills aren't any better or worse than the first guy, but he's always toting the damn thing to someone else's house just to say, "look what I can do." And although everyone around him thinks, "oh, Jeez, he's gonna play his damn guitar poorly again," they also think he's harmless and they actually enjoy having something to do other than just stand around. He sometimes makes up wild and ridiculous stories just to please the people around him. He introduces himself to little old ladies on the streetcar or the bus, and he regularly tries to break up fights or get strangers to say hello to each other. He acts like he wants to bargain when he goes to the Wal-Mart in Peoria, and complains about how hot it is or how wet it is or how cold it is, just to start up a conversation. Sometimes he fails at these endeavors, but funny thing is, even the failures make him feel better about himself, than he would have felt if he had just retreated into his shell. He might or might not be a monger, but he also has a great chance of landing a civilian chica once in a while depending on whether or not he decides to actually put in the effort. And he is always putting in a type of effort that has become second-nature to him, and he reaps the rewards from it. His job might be fascinating or it might be boring, and if he likes it he'll stick with it, but when he dislikes it he manages to find an arrangement with his boss that better suits him, makes him look better, and is likely to garner him a less-than-well-deserved promotion soon.

I know people who fit both of those categories. And I can say point blank, that the first guy is probably more "moral" and "upright," probably less likely to be a manipulator or a cheat, probably more reliable as a long-term partner for a civilian girl who catches him. Probably also willing to cooperate with her in her own contradictory understandings of the warped North American system of marriage out there, so that both partners can end up with a happier relationship in the long run. But I can also say point blank, that he hardly ever gets into a relationship. The second guy, who is likely to cheat on his girlfriend if it pleases him, is definitely not going to abandon a monger lifestyle if he also gets a civilian partner (presuming he is a monger at all), and basically keeps all the money he makes in order to buy toys, is the one the women gravitate toward. Not because the women "want" him, but because they inadvertently respond positively to him. Even if he cheats on a girlfriend and gets caught doing it, he gets to keep the girlfriend more times than not, simply because he can charm her (or her sister) back into bed with him again.

So, this is the injustice of female "thinking," the style in which one category is preferred over another. I am grossly generalizing, yes; but I do believe that some of these statements cross cultural lines. Sure, in Mexico, being a rich gringo who can "rescue" a girl from "all this" and give her a nice beeeg house in Santa Monica, probably goes a long way to catching a civilian partner. But it also goes a long way, to entrapping the man in economic support of a leech. So, being rich might work, but it's a double-edged sword. Being charming, or somehow proactive, initiatory, I don't know what the word is, is something that works across the board, and works to the benefit of both partners.

And don't think that what I mean, is that the strong silent type never gets laid. No, I know lots of guys who come across first as the type of guy who stays at home, example one above; but then if you delve deeper, and look closely at them, you'll see that they're really example two above, but they've got a good act going, of pretending to be example one. They're the strong silent type who aren't necessarily strong, and certainly aren't silent, but they've got everyone believing that they are. The REALLY silent types, are never heard from, right?

Granted, that I don't question to monger lifestyle, but I'd rather not lead it. It is a lesser of all possible evils for me, right now. I want to actually land civilian girls as girlfriends, have relationships, have a less money-contingent lifestyle. Hang out sometimes. Heck, I don't care if I meet her when she's a prostitute; but I do care if I can actually create a relationship rather than merely a twenty-six-minute fuck opportunity for $60 no $40 OK $50. So, the task ahead of me, I think, is to become guy number two. Maybe my schtick doesn't need to be, learning how to be the noisy weak type who comes across as the strong silent type; maybe my schtick needs to simply be, to get out of my shell. But I know, right now, I couldn't land a civilian chick if I had a whole flight control deck working for me. And I also know, I'm unhappy about that. I need to learn to be outgoing. I think the guys who talk about walking Revo and meeting the waitresses, have one brick in the wall ... the brick of where to meet. But they don't necessarily have the brick, of, how to charm and "catch." And I suggest we should be discussing how to do that.

As long as you can stomach it. I've been trying to learn to be this "proactive" guy for about a year now. I first stumbled on the idea when I started meeting some of my richer, happier relatives when I got out of school. And when I say, "richer," I mean emotionally as much as financially. I'd been a long-time academic, always doing "the right thing" and letting the job pick me rather than vice-versa, and when I got out and met the salesmen in the family who didn't have wives, I started envying their liberated lifestyle. Sure, some of them are just as backwards about mongering (or at least, say so to my face, not knowing my own interests) as a member of the Women's Temperance League of Kansas; but that doesn't prevent them from whooping it up with a variety of friends and lovers to whatever extent their own moral code allows. They live their own lives, rather than someone else's.

And yet, when I try on this suit of proactivity, it somehow feels wrong. It makes me think I'm trying to be a selfish Machiavellian, makes me wonder whether life isn't actually just a series of hedonistic pleasures and then death, gives me the heebie-jeebies in one way or another. I've seen the star-struck look in the eye of a young woman, when I started blathering "pick up lines" that actually work; and I've doubted myself, because I knew that the very act of NOT being "myself" was EXACTLY that thing which most attracted her to myself. "How does that make you feel," I say, just like the get-laid-quick schemes on the internet tell me; or "Let me tell you about a special experience I had, which I'd like to share with you"; and Lo and Behold, she actually responds positively despite herself, reaching for my hand or gazing deeply into my eyes; but then instead of saying to myself, "wahoo, this shit works!", I think, "Omigod, I'm manipulating her emotions for my personal gain; I'm a cad."

Any suggestions? Any comments about my theories? Took me a day to write this, it seems! But it's actually a response to these recent statements about people who have picked up civilian girls, something I've never done. I've never met a stranger I was attracted to, and ended up having a happy interaction with her, whether that was a relationship or a one-night-stand or just a little flirtation and then mutual agreement that we weren't going anywhere. That's why I ended up being a monger -- because I couldn't get pussy, or companionship, any other way. I'm sure there are other types of mongers -- guys who got it the traditional North American way and are now breaking out of that economic marriage dependency; guys who have no qualms about fucking whatever walks towards them; guys who are young and haven't worked through all these mental convolutions, or who might never. But for me, becoming a monger was a disappointment, almost a crutch. It prevents me from interacting with civilian people honestly, because I can't tell them what I did on the weekend; and it in some ways stunts my emotional growth, because I never have close interactions with women I care about for longer than about an hour before I change women; and it in many ways makes me feel like a failure, as though I've opted out of the challenge (getting a "real" mate) and gone for the quick, easy, but false, fix. I wonder if that's a life-sentence, a permanent state of my psyche; or if it's just a series of mistakes that I make, in my manner of interacting with people. I still wonder. I wonder whether accepting mongering is the right path, or overcoming it, or getting better at picking up civilians, or mixing civilians with mongering better, or what.

Thanks for your time and patience. I welcome commentary.

She wasn't a person wanting money, nor, at that moment was I looking for girls. That's why I got home before I saw it as a possible opportunity - though it didn't turn out. My post was just a comentary on "you find 'em where you find 'em. Keep your eyes open". I appreciate your feedback and comentary.

Book Guy, it's too bad WestFargo isn't around any more as he would have a field day with your post.

Your next to the last paragraph was the best. And also the saddest. Can you consciously become your #2 type personality or does the act of being aware of it doom you to constantly question your own actions? At its extreme #2 is totally reactive. What you see is what you get. Is this guy really happier than your extreme version of #1 who sits alone at home because his social techniques are so poor that no woman wants him? Or does #1 sit at home because of something else? And does #2 ultimately burn out akin to the former Miss Beauty Queen who eventually ages with nothing inside to compensate for the external decay?

What American women say they want in a man and what they actually choose are worlds apart. The continual incidence of spousal abuse and the parade of women in the media describing it prove that women do NOT learn from past mistakes. Nice guys do finish last and often end up alone at home with their five string guitar. (Ten strings if they use both hands)

Can you find a #2 who is both proactive and a hit with women, and at the same time sensitive and giving and communicative? Assuming that sensitivity etal are what women really do want in a man besides good looks. Can a professional football player who makes his living beating up people change into Mr. Heart when he clocks out? OJ anyone?

Women and men both have a strong vested interest in defining what is considered attractive and desirable in a mate. Ditto with what constitutes being a "real man". In our society it is women who teach a man how to be a man with the ultimate reward being companionship (read: sex). Newly fathers couldn't care less about whether their baby is dressed in blue or pink. Indoctrination starts very early and never lets up.

Humans learn from experience and watching others. Men know what women want by watching other men who are successful with women. Being a shit head works, being a nice guy doesn't. Being good looking works, being a reject doesn't. The guy who is a #1 probably isn't happy with that but he may not have any alternative. Except being a gay. And #2 may be out scoring every night but life shows that this kind often have tragic endings.

Mongering may be an attempt by some men to obtain what they cannot in a normal life. Add the event taking place in a foreign culture where standards of acceptance may be very different and the guy could actually find himself being desired. Of course, if the guy is truly serious about developing a relationship he is going to have to get out of the bars and casas.

Finally, mongering may be just the realization by some guys that they don't want to play all the games needed in a normal world in order to have female companionship. And they don't have to either. And that may be why prostitution is the world's oldest profession.

Heh. You said it. Not that it made any sense, but you said it.

I guess for me, the question isn't whether mongering is "right" or not -- I don't have any problems at all with it. The question is, whether I can't figure out a BETTER arrangement for myself. I dunno ... guys number 1 and 2 are, of course, bizarre generalized composite sketches, not taken from real life. But they made a point, and I'm glad you understood it.

From there, where do I go? I dunno. I feel so guilty, such a failure, such a "looooooser" (you know the intonation!), whenever I'm mongering. So recently, I haven't been doing it.

But part of that, is because I am trapped in the North American USA urban style of mongering, which I call hobbying -- calling someone from the 'net. You don't get to have the fun of living in an alternate culture, meeting the girl before choosing her, flirting, bailing out if you see something you don't like. And you don't really experience "pleasing" her the same way she's expected to please the guy, in hobbying in the manners I've been doing it. Maybe I just need to UP the monger quotient, and DOWN the hobby quotient, so to speak.

I guess it's just galling to me, to hear about some guys who hike up and down Revo and "meet women." Hahha, like that would ever work for me. I'm not bad looking, don't get me wrong, or dressed poorly or anything. I just don't have that "go get 'em" attitude. Not that I want it. But I do want the rewards. Without having to sell my soul. Ahh, it's all too complicated. Good night. Thanks for the response.

BG - I know exactly what you're talking about and you're exactly right. I've been guy #1 (the "nice" guy) all my life, and I don't have shit to show for it. Nice guys indeed finish last. I monger for the exact same reasons you do, and I suspect many others, but most are not willing to admit it. I want to give up "the hobby", too, some day.

But I look at it this way: I use chicas as "practice" for the 'real thing'. Sure, they're putas (mostly), but even putas respond in many of the the same ways as 'regular chicas'. I'm trying to use the benefit of the 99% chance of non-rejection by the chicas to bolster my confidence (albeit a false one) and practice flirting. Sure, she gets paid to laugh at everything you say, but you can still tell if it's genuine and learn from it.

I think it's reasonable to assume that one might 'scale-down' their mongering flirtation techniques to reflect the boundaries of the "real world". At the very least, it can give you just enough of a "what the fuck" attitude to be willing to try it and strike-out a few times on the way to success. I think if one can emerge from such 'practice' with at least a playful 'tude, then one's half-way there.

Women are women, hookers or not, so at the very least we can rent them for a while and learn from them. That's what I intend to do. And I intend to succeed.

Book Guy, I have a possible solution for you if you are truly interested in meeting a "nice" Latin woman. Or two. Take a long break from whatever it is you do and move to a country south of the border. And I am not talking TJ either.

Once you get settled in your new home and begin moving around (and learning the language) you will discover that the women in your neighborhood have noticed you and are wondering what your situation is.

Without beating the same dead horse of how American women can be so cold and/or superficial you will find that it is far easier to meet women in a Latin country in public situations that would result in immediate dismissal in this country for any guy being a #1.

Believe me, being an American in one of these countries is worth extra bonus points. And being "nice" may suck in terms of machismo but most of these women are pretty sick of their own macho assholes. A guy who is willing to treat them as an equal (you know, sometimes you do missionary and sometimes cowboy) and just plain talk to them and do things with them will make you stand out.

Sounds great. Quit my job, pay for airplane fare south, sit around in a nice tropical location for a while, live day to day. Who's paying?

>Who's paying?

VISA? MASTERCARD? American Express?

Get all of the cash advances you can and head for the border. I doubt they'll find you.

Good luck!

The Senator

"99% chance of non-rejection"

Hmmm.

I think the way you stated that reveals part of your problem (which I am NOT afraid to admit, I share).

BG,

Ah, this subject always pushes my buttons!

To pick apart your "diatribe":
"I think it's a myth that women want a rich guy."

Really? Are YOU rich?

"being rich might in general be more of a DETRIMENT than a benefit, in the act of picking-upping, simply because it cubby-holes the guy into the role of "playtoy" and not "intense partner."

You start off with your statement about women and rich guys, but who said that generalization only applies to women who want an "intense partner"?
You have to get your foot in the door somehow. It's up to you where it goes from there.


"I know of a few other men who have these supposed advantages but aren't able to get laid in Adelita's with a fistfull of Ben Franklins."

Now THAT I'd like to see!!!

"we all know, women "want" a rich, tall, good-looking, sensitive, caring, committed partner."

Yeah, I know what you're saying. We all "think" we know what we want, but I believe many (most) of us are fooling ourselves.

"I knew that the very act of NOT being "myself" was EXACTLY that thing which most attracted her "

See above.


My personal theory about the "biker vs. nice guy" situation is that women (American) are looking for fun and excitement in their otherwise bland lives. So reguardless of what many women say they want (and actually believe they want), they'll usually choose the rock star/biker over the nice guy.

Another thing to think about. You ever notice how many women in this country are attracted to foreign men? Well, when you go to another country, YOU'RE the foreign man!

""Omigod, I'm manipulating her emotions for my personal gain; I'm a cad."

You should get over that. What good is that kind of thinking if you continue to end up alone?
Think this instead: "When I end up with this woman, I'll treat her well".

Remember this (something it took me over 40 years to learn): Once in the friend zone, always in the friend zone.

"in many ways (mongering) makes me feel like a failure."


For me, any experience with a woman treating me like a man, rather than a safe "friend", is good. I certainly don't get that here at home.

Yeah, San Puto, good point about the "friends" zone. There are whole websites on the internet devoted to learning not to fall into the "let's just be friends" trap. I agree totally with almost everything you say (except the part about characterizing my comments as a "diatribe," I take exception to that, heh).

My commentary about the fact that women say one thing and do another, on the rich-partner subject, was more a point about the hypocrisy of our culture, than it was a complaint about women, or a complaint about being rich. I see you rightly nit-picked that comment a bit, but take it for what it's worth: there's no magic bullet, as I said. Getting a nice car, but being a dirty slob, won't get you laid any more than cleaning up your wardrobe and hygeine but never improving on a warehouse job.

I guess here's how I'd like to put it, simply: it's a social skill. The act of initiating relationships of WHATEVER type with WHATEVER gender of WHATEVER culture of WHATEVER sorts of humans, is somewhat (although not 100%) independent of who you are and what you have to offer. If you have a car, and your target doesn't, you CAN offer to take him/her/it for rides in the car. But that can lead either to a mutually fulfilling relationship, or just a taxi ride, depending on what ELSE you bring to the interaction. And the same goes for having a great job, making scads of money, volunteering at your local animal shelter, having a square jaw, dark hair, and a six-foot-something frame, or being a Senator. The point was, that knowing how to initiate a friendship or a relationship or just a hang-out-ship or a hook-up-ship, is about KNOWING HOW to start it up, not just about BEING A GOOD CHOICE if it DOES start itself up.

I think most of us fall into patterns of knowing hows, patterns of initiation that we've been living for most of our lives. Hobbyists and mongers learn how to get the most bang for the buck out of a provider; but don't necessarily learn how to get the most relationship quotient out of her, or out of themselves or their civilian partners. Meanwhile, politicians learn how to get the most votes out of people who otherwise neither know nor respect them. Likewise, good car salesmen learn how to ... well, you get the point. And the thing I'd like to learn, is how to get hot-looking, young, nubile, interesting and horny civilian female partners to drool and beg for my cock.

Any suggestions? ... heh ...

Oh, another point, San Puto. You quote me:


me: "Omigod, I'm manipulating her emotions for my personal gain; I'm a cad."

you: You should get over that. What good is that kind of thinking if you continue to end up alone? Think this instead: "When I end up with this woman, I'll treat her well".


You think that's the right tactic? Just decide to think something? Like a mantra? The internal "how you represent it to yourself" is indeed part of the package, and I was pointing out my own reticence to be a cad as a means of demonstrating my own inhibitions, my own pre-programmed responses that actually hinder rather than aid my quest for a given goal. But it isn't all just getting the right mantra; another part of it, is somehow understanding the kernel of truth inside the inhibition. Because being manipulative IS a thing I don't want to do, not in its crassest, grossest form. Getting around that, is something tricky for most men with a moral core.

Here's one way I get around it. I think in terms of there being two distinct moral universes, when it comes to "landing" a great catch female. Universe one, is the "initiatory" phase, in which all is fair. As long as you haven't banged her, "sealed the deal," gotten her to commit to backing off of her North American Princess Crap, then you are in the initiatory phase, and you can use whatever tactics will WORK to get you INTO phase two. But then, when you HAVE gotten into an interaction in which each partner has a right to reasonable expectations from the other, THEN I don't want to be a cad. I want to be "sincere" instead.

I'm not sure that distinction is fair or valid, but it in some ways alleviates my misgivings about being a cad toward women I meet.

Of course, this is all just theory. I don't meet many women at all. Walking up to hot strangers in the parking lot of the mall just ain't my style.

Hmm..
What you're saying above sounds a lot (to me) like the same thing I said, you just used more words.

As for meeting many women, I used to meet beautiful women all day long. It didn't do me any good, however.

I was still me.


BTW, as for your "objection" to my use of the word "diatribe", I actually cut and pasted it from your post!

Yeah I know, I said "diatribe". Just bein' snarky.

More generally, you said the same thing I said? Well, it takes more words for me to confuse myself sufficiently that I think it is beginning to make sense ... or something ...

Heh. I do wonder about the concept of the "mantra", something that's come up in an email correspondence I'm having with another monger; and about your theory on the bikers/nice-guys concept. I'm not convinced that women are JUST looking for some excitement in their otherwise humdrum lives. I would categorize it differently, that a prototypical "nice" guy is USABLE, can be taken advantage of. Whether or not he lands the girl, or just ends up with a leech, or even with a leech who reluctantly lets him fuck her if he really pays for it, is all a different issue. I would say that my "learning" to be a bad-boy, at least in my theories, is less about providing simple excitement to the women (although that might as well get mixed into there too), and more about providing self-respect to myself, and TAKING THE LEAD rather than letting her get whatever arrangement she can most likely take advantage of me from.

Nice theory. Can't really do it in practice. Is this where your "mantra" comes in?

Diatribe diatribe ...

Hey Book guy,

I take exception to the way you took exception to what San Puto said when he took exception to something you said. When you took exception to what San Puto said you replied "heh". When you took exception to something I said cuz I took exception to something you took exception to your reply was "Harumph". What was so exceptional about the way I took exception to what you took exception to that warranted that kind of exceptional way of taking exception?

Well? I'm expecting an answer, and it better be exceptional!

San_Puto & book_guy: from my 7/24/01 post under "My handle is..."

"... from the acronym for a Sensitive New-Age Guy...the kind every woman claims to want but will kick to the curb in two seconds when the next hard-core assh*le comes along."

Simply based on my experiences during past 13 years of being single again. Any wonder then why I love TJ? Just need to fuel those addictive behaviors and pump up the self esteem some more is all.

RED: LOL...isn't your cheek deformed by now from all the times you've got your tongue in it?

book_guy: I just noticed again that you replied to my handle post in July by saying that I sound bitter...hell, no...I just accept that I'm a nice guy that respects women and simply refuse to bring myself down to the same level as someone that screws me over. Have I been hurt by this...who hasn't?...but I have finally learned to not repeat mistakes over and over thinking that they will have different results.

Red
We can tell it wasn't some measly pinster you spun up and roasted before that last post.
Taxibob

Snags,

Now you know why I hit the Zona...seeking other cheeks to place my tongue so I don't deform too much!

TB,

Only the best bro!

Hey Snaggy, good to have you in on the discussion. I think you and I see eye-to-eye concerning the subject of being excessively "nice," and how far THAT will get you with a civilian woman. For me, though, I've chosen the opposite path of redemption from you. You're milking Tijuana for all it's worth, it sounds like, and doing your best to leave behind nothing but money and bodily fluids and take nothing but Viagra. For me, I'd rather learn to beat the system that reamed out my ass for so long, than simply abandon it. That's why much of my commentary focuses on (or tries to; I'm not too good at focusing lately ...) how to get what you want by means of carefully engineering human interactions, rather than merely paying for it. You saw my first response to your "my handle is" post -- I think I said "don't be a nice guy." I admit, it's pretty simplistic advice, but sometimes just choosing a new identity is all it takes. I'm onto something here, maybe not in this thread per se, and maybe I'm not so hot at articulating it, but I do believe I'm around the corner from some major life changes in the manners in which I interact with women. You just go ahead and dislike those assholes who take the women away from the nice guys, and you remain as nice as you've always been; me, I'm learnin' to be (to use your terminology) an asshole ...

Hey Red, speaking of the best, I forgot to tell you I brought one with me last night, but you were no where to be found. And forget about sharing it with that human sprinkler!

Book, good luck with that project.
I'm trying too, but my own personal nature isn't co-operating.

BTW, my comments were reguarding AMERICAN women. I still have hope for Mexicans.

Puto,

Now you tell me!

Hey, I understand.

Laundry is important!

Hey,

How many "mongers" call you up and say "Let's go to TJ and do our laundry"

I dunno...

One's with awesome smoke?

OK.....

You've convinced me....when are we going to TJ to "do our laundry" again?

Soon, I hope.
I'll save it.

Your laundry? Please, no....don't save it.

You vely funny guy.

San Puto - Please clarify this : "99% chance of non-rejection...Hmmm. I think the way you stated that reveals part of your problem (which I am NOT afraid to admit, I share)."

I am generally clueless and want to know.

Thanks -

Mr Bill: one thing that pops out at me, was that the idea of looking for a sure thing can be a large portion of what a guy does "wrong" to limit his chances with a woman. I don't know if that's what San Puto was referring to, and whether or not he actually has some technique that will help him to overcome (or recommend to others how to overcome) the natural desire to find a sure thing. Maybe he can add to this discussion.

But I do know that one of the best approaches to picking up women, is simply the numbers game. The more you approach, the more you'll eventually fuck. Simple math. Many supposed "nice" guys simply don't ever push an interaction to the POINT at which an actual "pass" is made at the woman, thinking either (a) they're too much of a gentleman or (b) too timid to do that. And women are notorious for blaming the guy for his inactivity or lack of initiative even though they don't blame themselves for their own.

So, for me, one of the first tasks in learning to really land the hot civilian partners, is learning to be brutally honest with myself about whether or not I'm actually APPROACHING potential partners at all. Ya gotta risk rejection to have a chance at acceptance.

hi bookguy and mr bill

yes i agree bookguy

you cannot be timid with these chics

these chics love sex just as much as you but are not gonna go to every guy they like and say lets fuck!

i have 3 or 4 regular chics in tj which i see every week or every other week and they keep me very busy.

but when it comes to marriage i want the ultimate chica !!!

mr. bill hows the homework coming along ?
i have faith in you
i wanrt to head out there soon but need to know in advance where to hit !!
by the way do you know how to dance banda or cumbia ?
if not practice in the clubs you go to now

take care
milkman

Remember this when going to any club or bar to meet chicas,,,
A closed mouth does not get fed

Well stated Blazers

Okay, I get it...

I had just been turned-down by a chica at work (who I was in LOVE with) when I wrote that, so I was unable to think clearly. A quick trip south of the border ought to fix that...

You are all correct - esp. BG because I hadn't really pondered that one before - thanks. (re: being the nice guy who actually DOES make passes)

I used to be timid as hell around women, but I have broken free from that recently. So my "99% chance of non-rejection" quip applied to the "old me" more than the "new me".

Thanks guys. I think I need a hug... ;-)

PS - milkster -- I might or might not get down to Nogie soon. I'm trying to score regular American chicas, but my rejection by the guapa at work might send me back into the arms of mi favorita. If it does, I will do my best to check out the bar scene. Oh, and I can't dance to save my life, but I'll see if I can watch some banda/cumbia dancing on Telemundo -- what shows on TM might I be able to see some?

hi mr bill

i fall in love almost everynight and my hearts breaks too.

i have 3 regular chicas now in tj , that i can fall back on if i strike out at any of the clubs.

one just bought my a gold bracelet and is a very very sweet girl 20 , good body and cute face and she is expressing her love to me all the time

the worst is started to happen
i am feeling bad now when i go out looking for chicas.

what does that mean ? - perhaps the L word

if i was to settle down it would definalty be with a respectable girl like that
the kind you can bring home to mom and need not to worry becuase this chica doesnt speak any english ! - lol

but again when i hit these clubs its not just to find chicas to fuck but for the fun of dancing , meeting new people trying to speak and learn their language and for the " Art of game ".
( which i am still trying to master but falling in love can hamper this ability !! )

mr. bill i can dance just good enough to stay afloat !! i am still learning and having fun while doing so

like i said you can hit some ficha clubs and dance with these chicas and you will learn !!

when you say american chicas - do you mean whiteys ? or mexican americans ?

there is no comparsion stick to the latinas !!
they are much nicer !! - and like sex more than our whitey girlfriends !!

just up till last year i was muy timido !!
now i walk into a club with a
"supergalactic lover ego trippin attitude "
and its working - you call the shots , if you get shot down , no problem you dust off your bat and swing again - look how many times sammy sosa strikes out !!! - yet he is one of the most dangerous hitters next to Rey Ordonez.

i am telling you watch the difference when you come with this attitude !!

remember Dimone put the vibes out to hundreds of girls a year and he got lucky ! - thats the attitude rat !!!

so let me know how things pan out

milkyway

Thanks, milky. You're the man.

No worries re: the American chica heartbreak thing (she's as white as they get) - I got back up in the saddle so fast, I almost impaled myself!

I'm with you, leche... I like talking to the chicas almost as much as fucking them (in my Taco Bell Spanish - I'm just moving up to the side-order menu now, but I'm getting there...) And based on my mongering batting average, I'll take $30 for drinks and no pussy over $100 for lousy pussy any day! I *LOVE* babbling in Taco Bell Spanish like a two year old to chicas! I ain't quite up to discussing Nietszche yet, but I'm gettin' there.

And, hey. I shouldn't have said that I can't dance. I can't: shake my booty to disco music. I can: do any kind of *structured* dancing like ballroom (or, I can fake it anyway...) So I just might be able to cumbia/banda - not sure. But I'll sure as fuck try!

And, yeah, I got your attitude "right here". Claro. I'm with you there. Act like you're "God's gift", and some poor sucker, eventually, will, too. (And I got the Dimone reference...)

I'll be down in Nogie w/in two weeks, hopefully with a non-puta club report. We will do Nogie a la amateur night. It's a date!

MrBill

I didn't get the Dimone reference. Does that mean I can't learn to dance?

BG

BG - Dimone was the slick, scumbag, older dude in "Fast Times at Ridgemont High". Can you dance? That's a crapshoot. I like to think I've got "soul", but I still can't shake my booty. Hopefully, Mexican-style dancing will allow one's booty to remain largely in place.

Anybody can dance. It's not a question of whether or not he or she CAN. It's more a question of whether or not his dancing will IMPROVE his chances with the opposite gender ...

It's kind of like singing. I think everyone deserves the right to sing. We all can sing. It's just that some of us should never do it in public ...

BG -

You make a clever analogy with singing and dancing. I agree completely with your first point - chicas always say they don't give a shit if you can dance or not, as long as you try. It's embarassing, but probably only to the bad dancer himself (me).

Being a bad singer is, however, more "humbling" than being a bad dancer - it's a little more personal (which I'm sure you know). For it is easier not to look than it is not to hear. BUT... as long as no one else is around (or even if they are) - I'll bet most chicas would LOVE it if you sang to them. Or at least, they might get a good laugh out of it, be touched by it (either of which may help one get laid).

Hey, milkman - you ever try singing to chicas? Does it work? I don't really sing, but I can carry a tune at gun-point if I have to. I wonder - if I sing one of them sappy banda "ballades" to my chica, will she start getting wet? (I'm NOT kidding...)

P.S. Milkman - check your AOl e-mail, dammit...

Actually, I'd like to back off from that analogy a little bit, because ability at singing is mostly an "acculturated" thing that has only a little bit to do with ancillary skills that a chick might be looking for. Having a nice voice only slightly "tweaks" her chimes.

On the other hand, ability at dancing is a less common trait, and is also one that seems to indicate a set of skills that are interesting to chicks in general, cross-culturally: lithe supple fit bodies moving in rhythm, does that bring to mind anything, hmm?

So, basically, singing is something you can do for its own impression on a chick. Dancing, though, seems to me to be something that implies a whole host of other things.

And humans know that. The dance ritual is always part of courtship, in any age at any location. It proves the partners are viable, in some degree. The anthropological singing ritual is much less common -- although it does take place in some cultures.

So, dancing probably "fools" her a bit more into liking you. That, and having a Ferrari ...

BG -

Regarding your point re: singing -- it is indeed not really analagous to dancing in the framework you provided (physical, sensual compatibility + the intimacy/foreplay ascpect). However, my point in bringing up singing is this: I would consider (for myself) singing a sappy ballade to the chica (whilst looking into her eyes like a puppy dog) as a way to tug at her heart-strings directly. Hearing the words that already make her a bit tearty-eyed coming from your lips (and, supposedly, your heart) whilst you gaze into her soul -- I just gotta think some chics might dig that. At the very least, they ought to be touched by the gesture. Chicas gobble-up this sappy shit (like we do) for a reason...

Since I don't have a Ferrari, either, I must resort to other tactics. ;-)

C'mon, there's got to be some singing casanova's out there... Or do I have to be the first? LOL

MrBill

mr. bill

You bought $ 40.00 worth of fuckin film and you didn't even talk to the girl ! ?
You don't even own a camera !!!

i was wondering how many people would get my fast times joke !!

we are definately gonna have a good time down there together !!

let me know what you find out
thanks for the email

milkster

Coupla points...

First of all you guys must not know salsa dancers--they are SO stuck up about who can and can't (guys and girls) and you CANNOT really fake it...

And a second pint, kind of related to singing--here's a tip about Mexicanas that is at least as old as the WSG, and that a cabbie on the way to Boystown last week happened to mention to me out of the blue: Poetry. Reciting Spanish love poetry, maybe with Neruda at the head of the list. Not an intuitive suggestion for US, I mean, can you imagine getting down and dirty with Shakespeare's sonnets in a Gringoside bar?? But still I'm curious--anyone had the huevos to try this one? (Let you know if I do...)

"i was wondering how many people would get my fast times joke !!

we are definately gonna have a good time down there together !!"

Just remember, be careful because people on 'ludes should not drive.

hahaha

you guys are killing me here
you got me watching the dvd now !!
this is a nontypical thread because nobody is flaming anybody here

i quess we can all pat each other on the back


take care guys and continue the positive postings

" i shall fuck no girls before their time "

Milkman Spicoli - thats the name they gave me !!

for cocks sake Milkdude! I'm sick and tired of you posting how you fuck this chick-with-dick and that chick-without-chichis! Get outta here with that stuff!

Hey I'm still broke so why not flame my amigo.

Jarocho

hahaha

do not worry
i just got your email
didnt you like that chick with a dick i set you up with ?

i went saturday night
places were jumping !
i saw janet at pulgas and she brought a guy
( loser)
she is the girl that goes to senor frogs , i posted about a month ago
she is the one with the 2 sisters - i am not sure if you met them with me yet ?
she sat down right next to me - i was with 3 other guys.

the girl i made cry was back with her loser novio at least she had a smile on her face !!

i only asked to dance with one chica and i danced with her for about 10 mins.
so i left a winner

i was also trying to pick up the hot dog chica and told her i have a hotdog for her with my own special sauce !!!

those 2 girls sitting in front of us was back at the same table !!

they were drinking hard liquer that some loser bought them and i know why the hotter of the 2 said no to me friday

( because i wasnt dressed like John Wayne !!!)
she rejected every loser not dressed like a cowboy!!!

if you went up to her with the cowboy look and you were decent looking , she went up to dance !

quess what celena knows about my favorite ficha bar now !!!
a loser waitress from there works with her now and spilled the beans
its only a matter of time before she finds out about you know who
but forget about it donnie !!!
i will stick with celena as my number 1 girl and will just have fun at pulgas and forget about the other ones

oh well but don't think i am tied down yet !!

milkdude
milkspud
milky
milkyway
lechero
milkster
milkmiester
and when i have bad luck at pulgas just call me
loserboy