"Three-judge panel unanimously says that border police may conduct random searches of laptops without search warrants or probable cause. These searches can include seizing the laptop and subjecting it to extensive forensic analysis."

So, if you're entering the US, guards have the right to search the contents of your hard drive on a whim. It looks like the 4th Amendment doesn't count when you're crossing the border. Encrypt your disk? What happens if they ask to see the encrypted data as well? You're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Geez, I thought a search warrant specifically states what they are supposed to look for...if they find something other than what is in the search warrant it is supposed to be inadmissable...is this true you legal types?

But now they can totally invade our privacy, read our logs, journals, and diaries stored on our hard-drives...make copies, open files on each of us, then follow us like Mr. Smith...the black suit dude(s) and sunglasses in the movie the "Matrix".

"Mr. Anderson...we have been observing you. You are a parasite, a germ...an innoculous bug...a virus. You, and others like you, infest this planet as you spread your seed from whore to whore...now give us the code to the portal (a.k.a your username and password to CH)."

AJ

As long as you have nothing illegal than you are ok

The 4th Amendment has NEVER counted at the border. It is the right of the United States to protect itself, regulate commerce and enforce immigration laws.

In general, there are two types of border searches. Routine and non-routine. Both of these searches do not require warrants, however, have certain limitations.

Routine searches can be conducted without suspicion, cause or a warrant. A routine search is defined as one in which it does not pose a serious invasion of privacy or offend the average traveler.

Non-routine searches require reasonable suspicion. In regards to property, a non-routine search would take place if the item searched is either destroyed or permanently damaged. In regards to humans, this might mean a strip search or a body cavity search.

I believe there is another set of safety considerations that we have to consider.

What if you let your trip buddy borrow your computer and he surfs to places that you did not approve of?

What if some virus or spyware secretly plants files on your computer that you were not aware of?

What if you accidentally surf to a website that contains child pornography?

Nowadays, anything can happen with your computer. I find all kinds of spyware on my computer all the time. Who knows what someone is doing to my computer without my knowledge at some remote terminal?

I did find a program that will counter the Encase program and it can be found at the following link:

http://www.evidence-eliminator.com/product.d2w

Now Im not posting this link up to help someone cover up their illegal act. Im simply trying to help those that are innocent who might not know what is on their laptop computer. Is it possible that you dont know what is on your computer? The answer is yes.




http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/48389.pdf

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/customs.html

http://www.guidancesoftware.com/products/ef_index.asp

>These searches can include seizing the laptop

Wow. So they can just take your laptop because they think they might find something? Scratch that "unreasonable search and seizure" clause from the constitution.

>I thought a search warrant specifically states what they are supposed to look for...if they
>find something other than what is in the search warrant it is supposed to be inadmissable

Hate to tell you dude, but that has NEVER been true. If they find something while searching where they're not supposed to be looking - that would probably be ruled inadmissible. But you can be busted for anything they stumble across while legally executing a warrant. Of course none of that applies when you're entering the country anyhow, as they pretty much have free reign to do what they like.

I wonder if Hombre will consider opening up a thread for laptop computer security?

Anyway here is a link: http://www.politechbot.com/2005/05/10/technical-privacy-tips/

A program that I use is One-Click CleanUp made by WinCleaner. If you install it on a new computer, and use the user settings it will keep your hard drive clean. It will also allow you to permanently destroy all deleted files as you clean. "U.S. standard, DOD 5220.22-M It over writes that portion of the drive that had the information that you want to delete 3 times.

RG.

As I stated above, border searches do not require warrants. They can do practically whatever they want include detain you for as long as they need, strip search you, etc.

"Border Searches .--''That searches made at the border, pursuant to the longstanding right of the sovereign to protect itself by stopping and examining persons and property crossing into this country, are reasonable simply by virtue of the fact that they occur at the border, should, by now, require no extended demonstration.'' 87 Authorized by the First Congress, 88 the customs search in these circumstances requires no warrant, no probable cause, not even the showing of some degree of suspicion that accompanies even investigatory stops. 89 Moreover, while prolonged detention of travelers beyond the routine customs search and inspection must be justified by the Terry standard of reasonable suspicion having a particularized and objective basis, 90 Terry protections as to the length and intrusiveness of the search do not apply. 91 "

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/04.html#2

Okay then. If we have no rights at the border...well...good to know...just don't have anything questionable on your computer or in your camera/video camera when you enter the US.

If you got pics...might as well e-mail them, knowing of course they can intercept your e-mails and examine the pics anyway.

However, the real probability that customs agents will send you to secondary is remote...and then for them to go as far as to examine your computer in detail is even more remote. It could happen...but probably not.

My guess is, if they go so far as to examine your hard-drive...their suspicion of you is more than a lowly mongerer.

Oh by the way...

"Welcome to the United States...please keep your hands where we can see them."

AJ

RT here.

I think that I am leaning towards burning everything to a DVD and mailing it to myself before I go home.

What are the possible down sides to this plan, aside from the third-world mail systems sucking?

Thanks

(Message edited by rtgooch on July 29, 2006)

I won't be bringing any more laptops back over the border. Too much inconvience... Internet Cafe's, email and image storage sites will do the trick....

The mail is just as bad. They can inspect it just like anything else. I dont know how they do it, but it could possibly be sorted in a machine that kicks out stuff that flags as questionable.

You do have one right at the border and that is the right to remain silent. As funny and simple as that sounds, many people say something that only gets them into more trouble later on.

When answering routine border questions, keep it simple and short. i.e. What was the purpose of your travel? Vacation. Where did you go? Rio. etc.

However, if your detained or arrested, the best thing is to say nothing and demand an attorney right away. As well, always be straight faced. Dont laugh and dont appear angry. Your facial expressions could also be used against you later on. They might note down that your nervous, frightened or sweating, etc.

Something important to remember is that the customs and border agents cant search your property or self away from the border. For example, if they show up at your residence and want to come inside, ask questions or want your laptop. The answer is always no.

Actually when any law enforcement officer asks to search you or your property, the answer you give them is always no. Once you say, "yes" then you waive whatever rights you have.

So here is the simplified list of things to do when detained or arrested or when someone arrives at your house or approaches you (away from the border)

Can we search your house? Answer: No
Can we ask you a few questions? Answer: I would like to speak to an attorney.
Can we take your laptop? Answer: No
Can we search your car? Answer: No
Can you come down to the station and speak with us? Answer: Unless I am under arrest, no.

Finally, "Gentlemen, if I am not under arrest, I would like to leave. If I am under arrest, then I would like to see an attorney."


So the only things you say to an officer are generally "No" and "I would like to speak with an attorney." Thats it. Anything else will get you into more trouble.

The DVD option would probably be a good one.

Another option might be multiple storage cards and "undelete" software. Take some touristy pics on card 1. Take your risque pics on card 2. Just before leaving for home "delete" all the pics on card 2 and take it out of the camera immediately, then put card 1 back in the camera. When coming through immigration, they see your tourist pics on card 1, and a blank card 2. As soon as you get home, undelete all your pics on card 2. This of course depends on your camera not overwriting your pics, and on your undelete software doing the job - something you could easily try out before leaving home. And yes - immigration could undelete the pics as easily as you could (assuming they have the software), but it's unlikely they would bother digging that deep unless something else made them *really* suspicious.

I was thinking more along the lines of hiding the sim card inside the laptop computer itself. Its easy to take apart your laptop with a small screwdriver. Then tape the small picture card to the motherboard. If they x-ray it, it appears to be part of the motherboard.

Well, my beginning assumption is one has nothing that's actually illegal anyhow. So the only reason to keep them from finding it, or to not have it on your person when coming through customs, is to avoid the extra hassle of them deciding you're a "sex tourist" - and thus must be guilty of something - so let's search him thoroughly.

IE - the advantage of my approach is you're not "hiding" anything. The SIM card is right there, they can look at it if they want. With your approach, if they did find the SIM card, you could be found guilty of lying to them. That IS illegal, and carries a BIG fine.

Phoenixguy
Deleting the pics on a flash card does nothing. Even if you reformat the card the files are easily recoverable. Even I have a simple utility that still pulls up pics from 5 years ago on cards that have been erased and formatted many times over.

The same would go for deleting files from your hard drive after you e mail them to yourself. Unless you use a delete program with DOD overwriting capabilities. Even if you do that I wonder if the e mail itself will leave footprints that can be followed to the original files on your e mail server ?

I don't do anything as I am doing nothing illegal. Let them look at all my pics if that's what turns em on .I rarely even do nudes . All they're gonna see is a bunch of fully clothed girls in model type poses. Photography is my devout hobby officer. I look for models when I travel and they pose because I give them prints of all the pictures. What's illegal or immoral about that officer ??

Yeah, it sure is easy to get wrapped around the axle on this issue.

The main point of this issue is nobody should have anything illegal (under-age nude pics) on their computer, camera, or media storage devices.

If you have pics of women 18-years-old or older you've done nothing illegal. Yet, you risk a hassle that if Customs officials "think" the chicas look like they could be under-age...you then risk that you could become the subject of an investigation...a real hassle that could turn very serious very quickly if over-zealous government officials try to pin a charge on you...with or without proof.

So, what do you do to avoid a hassle if you decide to carry "legal" media with you? You may choose to physically hide it as Ironeagle suggested. However, and it is just my opinion, but I would think that if Customs officials discover that you intentionally hid media with pics on it inside the computer by opening it with a screw-driver, taping the memory card down and resealing the laptop...you would be guilty of some sort of deception subjecting you to a fine, arrest and/or investigation. It is also my opinion that if you change the file type from let's say .JPG to .ABC or .XYZ you may also be charged with some form of deception or trickery subjecting you to a fine, arrest/investigation.

However, I wonder how Customs officials would handle this issue if you use commercially available encryption software? It is legal and commercially available...designed to protect your privacy. If you use this SW to encrypt your .MPEG and .JPG files...are you guilty of deception, or are you prudently securing your privacy?

Also, I'd like to know if it easy to detect that files are encrypted just by looking at files and their extensions? If a Customs official were to try to open an encrypted file without the proper de-cryption method...would they "discover" that the file did not open because it was encrypted (would they get a message that says file cannot be opened because it is encrypted?).

My guess is most Customs officials would look for MPEG and JPEG files extensions. If they do not see any, but they were still suspicious, they may try to open other files. If some files open and "some" files do not open...what would an average person think? I know I would think that I simply do not know the correct application to open the file...I'd probably dismiss it and look for something that opens. If I see nothing incriminating I'd send the traveler on their way.

AJ

The risk of mistaken arrest is very real and so thats why you see me posting so zealously on this topic...

My college buddy had stumbled out of a downtown San Diego bar in the late 90s only to get arrested for armed robbery.

There was a hold-up down the street at a store. After 30 days of imprisonment and some $10,000 later in legal costs, he was finally acquitted. It was a case of mistaken identity. My buddy looks very hispanic and he comes from El Salvador.

There was a videotape at the bar he had visited and the bartender had remembered him come in on that night. If it were not for those two pieces of evidence, he may have been convicted of the robbery.

The possibility does exist that one can be arrested for something that they did not do because of a misunderstanding. Then it will come down to a judge and/or jury to sort out the facts later on. It will either be 1 or 12 nutty people that you would probably never befriend in real life. Its your pick. During the process, you will be sitting in jail while your employer and family wonders where you are. You might be lucky to still have a job when the misunderstanding is cleared up, if it is cleared up at all. There may even be a media clip "Man gets arrested with 100 pictures of nude women thought to be underage at airport". The media wont post up later on that you were cleared of all the charges though.

So with that said, I recommend the following program. www.truecrypt.org. It has a special two password feature. One password leads to a fake file area where you can put decoy files like your tax return. The other password leads to the real deal. This is so that if you are forced to reveal the password then you can give them the decoy.

There is another concern here as well. What about the unprescribed Viagra and Cialis? We all have bought some of these tabs from time to time over the internet or at a foreign pharmacy. If Customs catches you with that, then you might find yourself in trouble as well.

The Customs service usually waives most people through. I have never seen anyone sent over to the secondary inspection area at the airport. There is an area that appears to have large x-ray machines and a side office that appears to be used for interrogation. I suspect that if you came off the plane from Columbia, then they would most likely to scrutinize you more (for drugs).

I have found that the when traveling through Hong Kong, the searches become more intense. In the United States, you are searched just once before you reach the boarding area. In Asian countries, it seems as if you go through multiple searches. In the Philippines, your bags get x-rayed and searched twice. Then comes the physical hands on patdown and frisk. In Hong Kong, there have been armed men with dogs on occasion sniffing people coming off the plane. You have to go through security again even if you are trying to get to a connecting flight.

I dont believe the customs service is as concerned with the arrivals from certain destinations as they know which other airports are usually more troublesome.

One thing is for certain, they should stop using manpower to find naked girly pictures off of some guy's laptop and concentrate more on not letting terrorists on planes.

I would feel better if everyone got pat down and there were two seperate searches at the American airports before you got to the plane. As well, bomb sniffing dogs should be at every security checkpoint. However, these guys are too busy trying to find your half full bottle of viagra and stag videos on your camcorder.

---

quote:

You have to go through security again even if you are trying to get to a connecting flight.

---

I would like to add one more thing to this thread. Customs, border patrol and INS are absolutely the worst run government agencies in the world. You cant count on these guys to do the right thing when the time comes.

Instead of doing their job and protecting the United States, they instead choose to chase after Rush Limbaugh and utilize SWAT teams to take little Cuban children away from their families.

When I drive around the streets, its obvious to me that many of these people are simply not citizens. Is there anyone actually watching the border of our country? How does 8 million people get past this agency? They didnt let Rush Limbaugh past them.

So when dealing with this agency, your really dealing with a corrupt governmental organization that has the wrong priorities in a time of tension around the world. If they simply sat down and performed their jobs, then we wouldnt be so worried about terrorism in our streets.

The only people that need worry about them is middle aged men with girly pictures, Rush Limbaugh and little Cuban children. Thats it. Thats the short list. As for all those millions of Mexicans that cross the border each day, they have no fear. Border patrol will not do their job when the time comes.

When I get on a plane as a passenger, I know that the government will not protect me. In that regard, I am on my own.

Or how about this:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/9559707/detail.html

Marshals: Innocent People Placed On 'Watch List' To Meet Quota

DENVER -- You could be on a secret government database or watch list for simply taking a picture on an airplane. Some federal air marshals say they're reporting your actions to meet a quota, even though some top officials deny it.

The air marshals, whose identities are being concealed, told 7NEWS that they're required to submit at least one report a month. If they don't, there's no raise, no bonus, no awards and no special assignments.

"Innocent passengers are being entered into an international intelligence database as suspicious persons, acting in a suspicious manner on an aircraft ... and they did nothing wrong," said one federal air marshal.

These unknowing passengers who are doing nothing wrong are landing in a secret government document called a Surveillance Detection Report, or SDR. Air marshals told 7NEWS that managers in Las Vegas created and continue to maintain this potentially dangerous quota system.

"Do these reports have real life impacts on the people who are identified as potential terrorists?" 7NEWS Investigator Tony Kovaleski asked.

"Absolutely," a federal air marshal replied.

7NEWS obtained an internal Homeland Security document defining an SDR as a report designed to identify terrorist surveillance activity.

"When you see a decision like this, for these reports, who loses here?" Kovaleski asked.

"The people we're supposed to protect -- the American public," an air marshal said.


Read more here:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/9559707/detail.html

IE - as for Viagra or Cialis, it's easy to get a prescription from your local doc or via the internet. Just keep the number of pills in the bottle under what's shown on the label, and it's perfectly legal for you to have them.

>I have never seen anyone sent over to the secondary inspection area at the airport

I guess you weren't on my plane coming back from Manila the day I got sent to secondary. After rummaging through all my stuff, checking for hidden compartments, having me empty my pockets, etc - they sent me on my way because I had nothing illegal. The whole process probably delayed me about 10-15 minutes (dude was sloooow). That's only happened to me once, and that was the time I declared a few items (like a pool cue). Seemed to me they were looking for drugs, as the guy looked at some of my items very carefully, but never even turned on my digital camera.

This is a little off-topic, please indulge me.

I crossed the border into Mexico, bought and consumed a 100mg tablet of Viagra, then 30 minutes later started fucking my brains-out.

I totally forgot that I placed the empty Viagra box and foil in my shirt pocket. When I crossed the border the border guard noticed a bulge in my pant's front pocket. "What ja got there in your pocket?" I reached in and pulled out an old beat-up ball cap. Apparently a big let-down for him...he didn't ask to see in any other pockets, and waived me through.

On the drive home I discovered I forgot to dump the empty Viagra box and foil...then I wondered, "What if the border guard had asked to see what was in my shirt pocket?"

I don't have a prescription for Viagra...yet, there was nothing inside the box. I suppose they could have send me to secondary to question me...but could a wrapper be sufficient evidence to charge me with any wrong-doing?

Just wondering.

AJ

You guys are probably at the shotguns and canned food hoarding stage at this point, as paranoid as you are. Please try and chill out and remember, you are one of many hundreds of thousands of people crossing the boarder or arriving on an international flight on any given day. The chances of getting hassled are incredibly low and if you are hit up giving simple honest answers to the first couple of questions should take care of you.

Customs is very generous to those who travel through JFK. They provide a bathroom for you to dump your contraband before you get to the inspection point. As your going down the ramp, its marked and to your right.

So if your like Rush Limbaugh, you can flush those last few unprescribed Viagra pills or get rid of that leftover happy pizza.

No worries though at JFK. They never seem to send anyone to secondary. The customs guys look older and seem to be just riding it out until retirement.

(Message edited by ironeagle on July 30, 2006)

Of all the U.S. airports I have entered the U.S. through (and there are alot), without question Seattle had the meanest looking Customs motherf***ers (are the asterisks necessary?)and the biggest tendency to send people to secondary (although not me, and not necessarily those suspected of sex tourism). I should add the flight I was on came from Japan, not Columbia, the Philippines, or some other potentially "suspect" place. I should also add I only went through Seattle once, so there is the outside chance there was something they thought they knew about my flight that brought out the worst in them; I doubt it though.

Anyone else have "favorite" airports in the U.S.?

I forget the name of that movie with Tom Hanks where he got stuck in the airport because of an overzealous Customs supervisor trying to get a promotion. Law Enforcement types have one of two personalities. The young guys looking for promotions and those older guys buying time until retirement.

The operation in Seattle is probably run by some young 30s something guy like in the movie with Tom Hanks. It probably has nothing to do with risk to the airport.

I always try to base my expected experiences on what happens in movies. I fully expect to become a pro golfer based on Billy Madison and have an excellent caddy based on Caddyshack.

Cat hit this one on the head. Sure there's a possibility you'll have to go to secondary inspection, but the odds are in your favor.

With the proliferation of internet sites that allow you to upload pictures and then download them again once you get home for free, what's the purpose in trying to sneak nudes that "might" get you into trouble through customs? As for drugs like Cialis and Viagra, if you need them in the U.S. why are you traveling overseas? You're obviously tapping more tail than most of us. Buy what you need and use it where you're at. There you are, no problem sneaking it back into the country.

I've gotten away from even taking my laptop with me when I go to the U.S. - except when I am there for a very long stay. (FYI, I am a US citizen who lives outside the country.) I take a Pocket PC with a wireless keyboard with me. It has the advantage of being small, I don't have to take it out of a bag when going through security screening and has been generally ignored by customs' types. It also has wireless internet access which allows me to check emails and is considerably lighter than my laptop.

As has been stated before, when you go through customs say as little as possible. NEVER offer anything in terms of what you have been doing overseas. And forgodsake, don't act nervous. Remember if you haven't done anything illegal, you can't be arrested. If you think you have been harassed, quietly take down the officer's name and badge number and file an official complaint. Sure it won't go anywhere but at least you'll feel better.

After reading this thread, it makes me glad that I don't live in the U.S. anymore.

EA

One word guy's. APPLE.

Get yourself an Apple computer running OS X Tiger. This OS system has a lot of built in security features http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/security/ For example it has built in encryption software, another built in security feature is a Permanent Deletion option for your trash folder. You can even encrypt part of your hard drive and then hide it as an image.

On windows if customs wants to run a quick search of your computer they just go to Start, Search, then type photos, IMG. JPG. or whatever. On a Mac they could do the same thing but with a Mac YOU can control what the search function looks for. You can instruct it to NOT look in specific Folders, Files, or even Programs.

If you want to make sure that your hard drive is really clean you can go into disk utilities and have it overwrite all of the unused space on the hard drive after you delete something.

It will do ALL of this without buying any extra software.

RG.

>>Remember if you haven't done anything illegal, you can't be arrested.>>

Well, I wouldn't say THAT. Their opinion about you, whether derived from attitude, the sweat on your brow, the stutter of your speech or the fear in your eye can get you arrested at the border. The INS (DHS) people looking for promotion do not needa legal reason to detain and/or arrest you. They only need a procedural reason, which could be anything DHS deems reasonable to their workings. These are Border people, not the local Sheriff.

Yes, you can be arrested if you are innocent. But that is why I value 'innocent until proven guilty.'

www.shutterfly.com

This site has been around now for over 5 years, but I have always casually dismissed it. I have been keeping all my photos on discs for the longest time. There was one time where I lost one large hard disk during a move and those photos are gone forever.

The problem with keeping photos on discs is not only with the customs inspectors. The other problem is with family members, future girlfriends/wives, etc. If anyone discovers one of these photos on a disc that is lieing around, then you have some explaining to do.

I have had a few of my past girlfriends discover things on my laptop. I didnt give them access to the laptop, they were snooping. As I type this, I am on my third cd of pictures uploading to shutterfly.

If photos are a concern, just upload them to this site. You can even order a coffee mug with that chick on it too.

Quick Tip: Can your favorite garota find your photos?

(Chances are if you have sufficiently hidden photos from your garota, there is no way a custom's agent is going to find them)

Admittedly, there were a few occassions that I took some photos of 18 and 19yo's that looked questionable. This was the case with a Karla Model's girl and few girls I acquainted with through other means.

For a very longtime I have been using a service like HushMail which uses 2048-bit encryption. It is an email address I rarely use accept for cases I want to send questionable materal. I am able to send 25MB attachments which is more than sufficient for those few photos.

As for everything else including some MPEG videos, I just ZIP the files, change the file name extension and bury it several layers down in the Systems directory. It isn't because I am doing it to hide it from Customs. Mostly because I have come to learn garotas can be more suspicious and I don't want them to see photos of other girls.

There are lots of shareware/freeware programs to clean up your "History" and "My Recent Documents" files. The Garota Network knows exactly where to go when viewing your computer, so I make sure there are never any JPG type files there.

The few cases I've read showed guys having folders on their desktop something like "Rio Sweet Young Sex Things".

It doesn't take much to clean-up your PC before leaving Rio. Stuff can easily be compressed and securely emailed or FTP to another site. Or again, removing what is obvious from common view.

I am fairly certain Customs agents aren't that technologically astute, otherwise they'd be doing something more financially rewarding with their lives. It is the garotas you really need to outsmart!!

Cincoleche -

I don't disagree with your methodology for encryption so snooping Garotas don't find pics of other chicas...nor do I disagree to clean-up your computer so that border patrol doesn't find something curious that makes them want to dig further only to seriously cause delay for nothing.

But, if you take a photo of a chica who you personally wonder if she is old enough (questionable material)...why do you not listen to those tiny bells and whistles and not take the pic..or for that matter...have nothing to do with something "questionable"?

Though I have not seen any working chicas in Panama that I thought were of questionable age, it is more common in SE Asia, such as the PI, where I saw a working girl who simply looked a little young. It is very easy...if I say to myself, she looks a little young...I pass. Then I keep looking until I find one that is comfortably in "the safe zone"...minimally in her early 20s.

Why play with fire when there are so many other things to play with that won't get you burned?

AJ

One thing to take into account when dealing with CBP or ICE or any of the other jerks at the border is that it is a felony to LIE to a federal officer. The collorary to that is that it is impossible to lie with your mouth shut. So Shut up. If they start asking you questions and you lie, that can be used against you. If you did do something illegal and admit it, that too can be used against you. But if you say "I respectfully refuse to answer, may I please speak to a lawyer.", the questioning has to stop until you have spoken to a lawyer, and they CANNOT state in court that you refused to answer questions.

Power: When you are at the border trying to enter the US you do NOT have 5th amendment rights to refuse to answer questions, OR to have an attorney.

Those rights only hit AFTER you are IN the US.

Laguy, I'm 1/1 getting sent to secondary in both Washington state and NorCal, and about 0/11 in So Cal. I doubt all tbe fabulous advice about 'not lookng nervous' on this site had anything to do with any of that.

Oh, and 0/10+ in the lone star state...

Assuming there is someone of questionable age in a picture. Wouldn't ICE have the burden of proof that the picture on your hard drive is of someone who isn't of legal age? Wouldn't they have to find that person to prove she wasn't legal?

Curious, you ALWAYS have the right not to answer questions. Your only legal obligation is to state your citizenship and allow them to perform whatever searches they deem necessary. While searching you, they may "detain" you, which is not an arrest, and you may indeed not have an attorney while detained. If it moves to an "arrest", you do. Regardless, you have absolutely no legal obligation to say a thing to them beyond your citizenship. And, as I mentioned, if your lips are not moving, you cannot be lying.

Snooky, would YOU want to go into court and prove, in public, that that girl who is most certainly not your wife, is 18. Because that is what could happen. And, you will get to do it all in public where your family and employer get to find out about your little hobby. Even if innocent, you are still screwed. There is so much free porn on the internet, why bother bringing nude pictures back on a laptop?

I am not a fan of porn, or taking pictures, but if I was, I would set up a hotmail address with no relationship to my real name, mail a file of the pics to myself, and then, when home, go to an internet cafe and download the stuff onto a disk.

Another trick may be to purchase a web hosting account using fictitous names and a pre-paid credit card. I have not tried this, but have done web hosting under my real name and do not see any barriers.

Unfortunately, it is damned near impossible to transmit a data file without revealing yourself in some manner. If you upload directly from the camera, then the picture can be traced to that camera. If a computer is used, there is certainly some way beyond the obvious CPU ID, MAC and IP numbers to trace it. Be especially cautious of commercial operating systems. The computer used to download the file can also be traced. Therefore, you need to be certain that there is no way that any of the equipment used can ever be traced to you before or afterwards. This involves clandestine purchases, followed by a sledge hammer and a blast furnace. Internet cafe machines and public library machines may offer some anonymity, but watch out for surviellance cameras.

Better yet, just don't take any pictures of anything illegal and you should be ok. Young poontang is not worth prison.

Power said:

".....you ALWAYS have the right not to answer questions. Your only legal obligation is to state your citizenship and allow them to perform whatever searches they deem necessary."

I don't have it in front of me, but I have read the ICE handbook and it specifically says that failure to answer all their questions to their satisfaction is valid (legal) grounds for refusing you entry to the USA.

So yes, you don't HAVE to answer. But they then have LEGAL grounds for not allowing you into the country.

You do realize that just having a passport and/or a valid VISA does not give you the "right" to be admitted? It is still up to their "judgement".

Since when has it been the defendent's obligation to prove that he's not guilty? It's the prosecutor who must prove that he is guilty, and some photos with no additional evidence will go nowhere. If the girl is obviously underage, they can investigate further but I doubt if they'll fly teams of investigators to Thailand or wherever to find out if a girl is 17 or 18. If she looks 12 they'll investigate and make a case but that's about where the line would be.

Honestly, you guys have been discussing this in this thread and in many others, plus the Asia board, for months now. If you're paranoid, just don't take any nude pics.

Curious, having a valid visa does not give a foreigner any other rights than to apply for admission. If you are a US citizen, they HAVE to admit you. They can make you jump through hoops, but what else are they going to do? With foriegners, they can "exclude" them and deport them to country of origen. An American citizen cannot be deported from the US. Period.

Those of you who are REALLY paranoid should know that when you purchase a computer, even with cash, and then send in the rebate form are giving a way for anyone with the rebate form (ie government agent with a supoena) to track the computer's IP address, and potentially hack into it and get what is on it. Also, all printers print microscopic identifiers on each page. Again, if you buy a printer on credit or exercise the rebate, something printed off of it can be traced to you.
Sweet, isn't it?

Powerslave, computers don't come with IP addresses. If you mean the MAC address which is assigned to the Ethernet network interface, you can always use a locally assigned address but nobody tracks MAC addresses, which would only be useful between you and your upstream router anyways.

If you really want to get ICE up your ass, start paying cash for airline tickets. I generally cringe whenever I hear "only someone guilty would......" but in the case of paying cash for an airline ticket, that is suspicious. Of course, I know guys who won't use EZ-Pass or other automated toll systems on highways, and a few people who refuse to use ATM machines, but generally speaking those are isolated weirdos. Believe me, you'll raise a hell of a lot more suspician in trying to hide your innocent actions than for just going about your business as normal.

Cat,
Paying cash, last minute ticketing, one way ticketing will get the SSSS on your ass quick. That was before 9/11 too.

I know a computer securitygeek for the gov(white hat hacker)in Jersey that won't get EZ pass because he swears that when push comes to shove the police will use it to give people speeding tickets by using the times between tolls.

Snooky, you do not need to use EZ pass on the Jersey turnpike to get a ticket. When you pay cash, your entry ticket is time stamped. If you exit, say, 100 miles further up the toll road, and it only took you an hour to get there, the State Police give you an automatic ticket. I have a cousin who has to run the entire turnpike a couple times a month. He throws his ticket away as soon as he enters, and when he exits they just charge him the maximum fee, which he would have paid anyway, but now then cannot give him the speeding tickets he so richly deserves.

Incidentally, One Way tickets are no longer a TSA flag. They have finally wised up that if Akhmed can afford $50 million for a terror plot, he can probably afford to buy round trip too. I remember going home from Ft. Carson in 2003, and 150 National Guard members, in uniform, on one way tickets were ALL given additional screening. Stupid motherfuckers.

RT here. I'm usually confused; now I'm really confused.

It was my understanding that once you clear immigration, you were legally in the United States, with whatever rights and privileges that status allows you.

I understand that passing through customs is another story, and they have very broad latitude in what can be searched, asked, etc. But since customs comes after immigration, don't we (Americans) have all rights that any other American might have (requesting a lawyer before questioning, etc.)?

I came home Monday through MIA, and the customs guy seemed not too happy that I travelled to Peru alone, had no family there, and didn't volunteer any further info, other that looking him straight in the eyes. He tried to stare me dowm for a bit, and then just said, "Thank you. Have a nice day." Was I pushing my luck? I had nothing illegal (either material or electronic), but who needs the hassle?

Here is an article, depressing as it is, on searches at the border of laptops and what we can do about this (not much). The article is from an organization which as I have stated before deserves our support.

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/05/protecting-yourself-suspicionless-searches-while-t

To be honest with you what I upload and download on my laptop will get me in SOOOoooo much more trouble with my girlfriend than anything that the border folks could find.

RG.

Another member of this board told me about his brand new laptop being taken at the border for suspicion of "blah blah blah." Nothing more was ever said of it. After 8 years of written requests to return his property, the only answer is silence. The computer would be worthless now, he says, so he stopped writing. So THAT's where all those government-surplus sale computers come from.

I concur that your citizen rights do not exist until you have returned to the land that gave you those rights. Standing ten feet from the border at an INS booth doesn't qualify.

Homeland Security has finally come out and admitted their policy of confiscation. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080801/tc_nm/usa_security_laptops_dc_1
I notice that they don't say anything about returning anything that's confiscated and that it extends to to video / Audio and any written materials.

I find it ironic the US government recently issued warnings that the evil Chinese Commie's will be attempting to snoop the laptops of Olympic guests. To hear the US government tell it, snooping laptops is a sign of just how evil and oppressive the Chinese Communists remain. Oh, wait a minute, the US government probably snoops more laptops than the Chinese communists ever will. Good to know our government has become competitive with the evil Chinese Communists.

Downandup,

The government does not need to tell anything about its policies in the name of national security, but the part of the declaration I find most striking is "Laptops can be seized at border without suspicion" meaning they don't NEED a reason to take it, and you are not entitled to a receipt, explanation or documentation of the seizure. That also means that you have no course of regress against the government to get it back, EVER. Forget that you ever owned it. Get a new one and move on. Consider it donated to the next government surplus auction.

Think I will just take my portable DVD player for trips abroad and rent a laptop when I'm at a hotel. Would be alot cheaper than losing it all. That, or just take a cheapo $400 laptop obtrained through craigslist.

And to the few people here who think "don't do anything wrong and you have nothing to worry about," well, you have just been proven wrong. No suspicion is needed to take it or keep it.

(Message edited by fcbkpr on August 01, 2008)

What exactly is there to worry about? So, if they search your laptop and find some nudies...I just cannot believe that is a big deal or illegal. Unless, of course, you have pictures abusing some obviously underage girl. So what if you have pictures of your favorite terma girl or photo trail of all your conquest along the way. What exactly is the big deal with customs finding this? The same with whatever you write to your buddies at home - ok, maybe any exception again for underage girls (there are US laws that can bust you for these types of misdeeds committed overseas), or talk of terroism or things along that way, but again so what if they find an audit trail of you exchanging e-mails with your friends.

As far as I know there are no laws against consensual sex or taking advantage of advantageous prostitution laws in other countries, nor having pornos or nude pictures.

Now as far as them detaining a laptop - how often does that really happen?

lets not get paranoid....how many of us have traveled lots of times overseas with not one single problem. Occassionally I get singled out for a secondary inspectation, but so what!

hehehe....but then again my suitcases on the way to the US are usually empty as I fill them up with goodies when I return back to Brazil. Shit, customs in Brazil is also hell if they stop you for a secondary inspection!

Lovingmarvin. Do you have anything in your bedroom that is illegal? Probably not. So then you wouldn't mind if the government popped in every now and then to search the place would you? After all you have nothing to hide so why would you mind them searching.

If the US is to proclaim itself a "free country" then it's citizens should have a right to privacy. The government shouldn't be examining peoples laptops simply because absent some kind of probable cause it's none of their damned business what is on anyone's laptop.

Well, some 18-year olds from other nations look younger than legal, when compared to girls here at home. So if an image turns up on your memory, and somebody thinks she looks to young, kiss your laptop goodbye forever. I would never accuse anyone here of looking for younger talent (you know who you are... BR) but the fact is that most girls 18-25 from abroad do not appear to be of legal age required for consensual sex. And I repeat, there is no suspicion required for them to seize and sell your laptop, and to add every detail of info on that computer to your personal record with the government.

Paranoid is not prepared, and I for one would not knowingly break the law abroad or take a laptop/camera through customs with anything suspicious on it, but that is not the point of the post. They don't need to see anything that grabs their attention, or even give you an explanation, for them to decide your laptop is now theirs, even without a secondary inspection!

So be smart, stay legal while overseas and start a side fund for a replacement laptop. No guilt or suspicion required for you to donate it to them!

It appears immigration and customs keeps a list of suspected "sex tourists." If you get placed on that list you can expect to be stopped, interrogated, searched and otherwise inconvenienced every time you enter the country. At least this is what we hear. Are there really members of this board who believe they should be subject to this sort of treatment by law enforcement when they are engaging in activities that are not prohibited by U.S. law?

Second, some of us have confidential information on our computers, whether business records, attorney-client documents, or what have you. I for one don't want immigration and customs going through my confidential stuff.

As a general matter, I also don't like government snooping through my stuff when there is no good law enforcement reason to do so. Law enforcement should not have unbridled power to harass whoever they should decide they don't like (based on looks, personal prejudice, or whatever). That is exactly what they are claiming to have with respect to laptop searches: unbridled power with absolutely no accountability.

Write a letter to your congressman or senator to complain about current policies, and then see what happens next time you go through immigration.

If you believe that you can write letter to DC, and not hear about it later, you live in a dream land.

MM

Let them look, but will they be able to see????

http://cnettv.cnet.com/9742-1_53-50003244.html?tag=cnetfd.mt

Remember your files are only as secure as your password.

RG.

Let them look, as if you have any choice, but them looking means you replacing.

2 videos everybody should watch.

Why innocent people should never talk to the police.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6014022229458915912

Great videos Iamnasa.

Thanks.

thanks for the links great videos!!

It is important that whether you should talk to law enforcement while firmly within the jurisdiction of the United States (where you have the full panoply of constitutional protections, at least theoretically) and whether you should talk to law enforcement at a U.S. border point (where you have very few constitutional protections) are very different questions. Consequently, to the extent the advice in the videos posted by Iamnasa to the effect one should not talk to law enforcement while in the United States is meritorious, it does not apply to the situation one confronts when going through Immigration and Customs to enter this country.

If you fail to talk to law enforcement while in the United States, there is very little they can do but to try to develop a criminal case against you without your assistance. This point was made effectively by the lawyer in the first video posted by Iamnasa who also pointed out there are very few, if any, benefits from voluntarily talking to law enforcement about a matter that could result in charges being filed against you.

In contrast, at the U.S. border an immigration or customs officer can confiscate your computer, ipod, digital media, maybe digital camera, and so forth without having to justify in any way doing this. This is precisely because the Department of Homeland Security has stated as their policy (and the appellate courts that have ruled don't seem to disagree) that Immigration and Customs can do whatever the fuck they want (well, they don't use that language, but it is close) with such things as your laptop computer, digital media, and so forth. Accountability appears to be zero.

Should you look at an Immigration and Customs officer the wrong way there is nothing legally to stop him or her from confiscating your laptop, ipod, and so forth (albeit with the theoretical obligation to return the items to you at some later unspecified time). From what I understand, they don't even have to give you a receipt when they take such items from you. They certainly don't have to provide any reason. If you look at them funny, and then refuse to answer their questions, well, I hope you are not too attached to your laptop or other accessories.

So, as has been pointed out so many times before, you can pretty much forget about constitutional protections at the border, and along with that forget about the attorney's advice in the videos Iamnasa posted until you have firmly planted your feet on U.S. soil (and beyond your U.S. entry point).

(Message edited by LAguy on August 03, 2008)

Don't you know this guy was shitting bullets;

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-10054569-83.html

One encouraging sign is that some Senators have introduced legislation to prevent customs and immigration from rummaging through laptops and other electronic devices without a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. It also requires probable cause for them to keep the laptop or electronic equipment for more than 24 hours.

The link to the article describing this is contained in the article Sandman flagged above. It is http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10055020-38.html?tag=mncol;txt.

Hopefully, after Obama assumes the Presidency, this or a similar bill will pass without resistance (or a veto) from the President.

This new article does not contain any dramatically new information, but continues to give hope that after Obama assumes the Presidency the Democrats may pass a bill providing some protection from searches of digital devices at the border.

http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20081208/ap_on_hi_te/tec_laptop_searches_1