>>52% of Americans think the US Government was complicit in 9-11<<

Link please.

I gotta see the link on the 52% of Americans that think the government was complicit in 9/11. That is really, really hard to believe. But then again, there are a lot of dumb asses out there. BTW what was that movie that stared Mel Gibson and he was the big conspiracy theory guy? Oh, SP, I am curious, do you wear aluminum foil on your head at night to protect yourself from the aliens? AZ

Azguy
Don't be so quick to laugh. There was another Mel Gibson movie that PROVED putting aluminum foil on your head was a valuable tool against the aliens.

BTW
I think the conspirancy theory movie was coincidentally called "Conspirancy Theory".
Go figure !

(Message edited by Khun_Mor on September 14, 2006)

Smitopher,
Apologies...I assumed you to be a leftie. Does that mean you're a libertarian? I must have got too involved in the answer, made assumptions and failed to pay attn to your prior posts. I did preface my comments by "take this lite"

Stevepenmen,
Shouldn't your answer have been, "I wouldn't have let them blow up the Towers, the Pentagon and Flight 93." Since it was the govt doing it, you wouldn't have ordered it to happen and therefore the DOW would be at 21,000, the interest rate would be at 4% still and Microsoft and Walmart would be bankrupt after handing over all their profits to the govt for unfair trade practices. (I hope that wasn't over the top, but it sounded funny in my head.)

Iswal,
This probably isn't appropriate, but stfu. The people of the world have hated America since my semi-young arse can remember. The only time we're appreciated is when we die for you or some terrorist kills us. Heck, when we give you* foreign, humanitary aid everybody just complains it's not enough. *you = every country in the world.

Besides Omer just let Hezbollah walk all over your rear end after GWB gave you guys the green light to wipe those f-tard terrorists off the face of the earth. And you still don't have your soldier back (!) I'm sure the terrorists are treating him as well as the terrorists sitting in Club Gitmo. Wait, don't your soldiers usually come back dead and mangled after their kidnapped by the terrorists?

I'm going back to watch Priew's Pattaya movie again. God, I love that Pattaya song.

Hi Ticasonar

I don't think that everyone outside the good old USA hates America, in fact most of us have a great deal of admiration for the US and what it stands for but when the US falls short of the ideals it sets for itself surely it deserves to be taken to task? When Americans and the rest of the world are being lied to should we all shut up? Arab governments and other dictatorships fear America because you offered a viable alternative to there own corrupt systems of rule. I say offered because under GWB that no longer the case, OBL and others of his ilk can say see when push comes to shove they are just the same as us, murderers, tortures and corrupters all.

Don't even talk about American aid, its a joke America spends less per capita on third world aid then South Africa and we are part of the third world! Also what America calls aid comes with so many strings attached that it is usually rendered useless. American dumping of goods into developing countries destroys not only jobs but also industries. All in the name of free trade. These actions by America cost developing countries ten fold what the US gives them in “Aid”.

As for what happened in Israel, yes the army was over confident and totally under estimated Hezbollah. Not a uniquely Israeli flaw. But considering America’s history with recovering POWs and MIAs from Vietnam and other conflict you have nothing to be proud of. At leased Israel makes a noble and heartfelt attempt to bring all its soldiers back, and as for getting those three boys coming back home alive and well, G-d willing, just wait and see Israel is not done yet.

Isawal, I'm not sure a guy from a country that just ended apartheid less than 20 years ago should be busting any country's balls on anything.

I know where Penmen got those poll results. They are at iamafuckingidiot.com

Penmen, you claim to be a physician yet you misppelled prozac and tranquilizer. Why am I getting the image of you as the guy in Office Space? The one that they ended up moving into the basement.

Isawal.........you're right on buddy. Don't even bother with these monkeys, ........they have no idea what occurs in the real world outside their ethnocentric bubble. The critics here are never going to look at the objective evidence, and you are wasting your time trying to enlighten them.

Arellius, please, please, please, no matter howyou spell it, just take your medication......and we'll be sure to check your spelling and grammar from here on in;

Since you mentioned it, as well, I get this vision of you as a frustrated 5 foot 1 inch big glasses booger laden nebish who needs viagra just to find his dick to pee. If you are taller, then the Napolean complex has infiltrated your increadibly narrow mind...most likely picked on and beat up in high school, you act and sound like a pussy who the whores probably charge double....get a life,

SP

I am going out on a limb here and predicting StevepMD will be the next board member to get booted. Only a matter of time now.

Too funny. Penmen, you are one entertaining dude.

Mr. Admin, please don't boot this guy.

This sure would make Macavelian's head spin - who's on who's side? I'm not sure I've ever heard of my allies' allies being my enemy before. Or my enemy's enemy being my enemy. But that's the world we live in these days. The dollar, what a bright future it holds

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14967.htm

"PUSSY, GASH, TITS & ASS". I am glad I got that out of the way. I wanted to be the first one on this thread to touch on the above mentioned.

I just read this whole thread rather quickly so I my have missed someone pointing out the real reason for much of the death, maiming, hate, and destruction that's going on now and that has been going on throughout recorded history.The reason is this totally illogical and stupid blind faith in God and all the religious crap that results. If we were all atheists, behaved logically, and treated others as we would have them treat us, most of the bullshit would not exist. There would still be some crap becuase stupidity and greed, but nothing like what's happening now.

Ldvee
People are biologically predisposed to "believe in God". And they are not predisposed to behave logically. I don't have any links to studies that support these assertions so you will have to google them yourself.

It would be nice if people were rational and logical. I'm not sure if that would increase or decrease the creativity of artists and their ilk or if life would be any better.

Defending Atheism is mostly a losing proposition, not because it is wrong, but because people refuse to consider it. Too scary for them.

And the best part, many will kill you to prove "Gods love".

They will also cite chapter and verse as justification.

Perhaps we could just start our own little scientific debate right here, instead of throwing the shit at each other; up for the challenge?

Here are the first two question for you intellectuals; Can't wait to hear your responses! If need be, parrot the Popular Mechanics propaganda and this will be even more fun for me.

1. How do 2, nearly 2 ton Boeing engines made of Titanium and Steal, with a melting point of around 1300 degrees C in a closed environment, totally "VAPORIZE" without a trace, as they government story goes? Maybe the terrorists had the help of Romulan Disruptors to vaporize them, eh?

2. How did that huge airplane make only a 16 foot hole as demonstrated by the PHOTOGRAPHIC evidence at the Pentagon, in both the entrance and exit areas of the trauma, AND, why were the roof and proximal windows of the Pentagon to that hole undisturbed? The roof collapsed a number of minutes AFTER the missle (oh, I'm sorry) airplane hit.

P.S. - My last post I lowered myself to your levels of slandering, and for that I apologize. Narrow minded monkeys in this country infuriate me at times. I'll try not to let it happen again.

Lets begin the debate!

SP

Come on now Arellius, not up for the challenge?

SP

SP -

In the early 1990s my buddy crashed his F-16. He was playing in an exercise with the Brits. During his sortie a Brit had him locked-up (missile lock), so he rolled inverted and pulled hard on the stick, attempting a high G loop towards the ground. Unfortunately, he had lost his situational awareness before he attempted this maneuver...he did not have enough altitude. He impacted the ground travelling more than 500Kts at nearly a complete nose-down angle. The search and recovery team tasked to recover all remains reported only a black scorch-mark on the ground maybe 10-15 feet wide...hardly anything was found. Later I saw the pic of the crash site, I was amazed that the ground was not more tore-up. It was Apparent that the ground at the impact site was very hard.

Granted, and F-16 is a lot smaller than a B-757 or 767. Yet, the same physics that made such a small impact site for the F-16 could explain the relatively small hole caused by the airliner.

Imagine that an airliner is mostly aviation grade aluminum, alloys and composite materials....skin, bulkheads, spars and ribs. Titanium is used primarily in the engines (turbine & compressor blades), the engine mounts, and the landing gear.

At speeds approaching .8 or .9 mach I can imagine that the tubular shape of the airliner body compressed unto itself becoming more fluid-like. In an instant upon impact of the outer surface of the building, the open cabin space within the interior of the aircraft likely collapsed completely. The high heat generated vaporized, liquified and melted everything. The now near fluid hot mix would likely seek the path of least resistance...a hole. The wings and engines likely would have snapped back to align with what was the fuselage...they too should have sought the path of least resistance...also travelling through the hole made by the fusalage.

Additionally, when tanks are struck by projectiles...the holes entering the tank are very small. The projectile becomes a plasma or hot gas that vaporizes the inside of the tank. If the projectile is hardened and happens to make it all the way through the tank...those who were inside the tank also went out through the exit hole...their entire bodies through a hole perhaps only inches wide.

AJ

How can you participate in a "little scientific debate" on a subject you have no facts on? You live in California. Were you part of the investigating teams? Were you in NYC or Washington on 9/11? Everything you believe is based on heresay or 3rd or 4th party reports or fantasy.

Smitopher,

I like to believe that civilization is in its adolescent stage and that with time, 100s of years probably, it will mature and behave itself.

I don't buy your predisposition theses. Religion and the concept of God are taught and believed because the fear of eternal damnation if not believed. Rational, logical thought I think is natural and gets destroyed largely by the religious teachings.

As far as who performed 911 and why, it was fanatic religious (islamic) people doing what they think their God tells them to do with Christians and Jews. And of course George the recovering born again moron consulted his God before we invaded Iraq and his God told him it was a good thing to do. I can just see Chaney laughing to himself about how the chump George believed him.

LDV

Here is a link to a Newsweek article about the biological basis for beleif in God. It is not a Newsweek site, they want money to read their archives.

---

quote:

Rational, logical thought I think is natural and gets destroyed largely by the religious teachings

---

AJ,

Thanks, but that evidence is anecdotal. I have 3 pilot friends, one is a captain for Continental, the other a first officer for American, the other works with Fedex. They all say it is bull shit as well; let alone being an amatur pilot and being able to make that turn he made with a commercial craft.

I can't imagine how this instance you speak of can happen, when to date, there is no record of any LARGE airplane, like the alleged Pentagon one, that has ever totally vaporized. Something, some piece of evidence, is left behind. It is just physically imposible, defies the laws of Newtonian physics, quantum mechanics and thermodynamics. Plus, does that military plane has Titanium anywhere in it's components? It is extremely difficult to hide traces of Titanium from a crash.

You say you were surprised by the small indentation this plane left in the ground. Examine the photos from the Pentagon on that day..............not even a scratch......also physically impossible.....nothing was there on the ground.

......and the 16 foot hole.....also physically impossible. I don't care what kind of on the take "expert" someone may get in some popular magizine, no one can change the laws of physical reality. Even if you consider that it may be possible, if the wings snapped off and did not go through the building, then where were they? Vaporized? No rational man of science can believe that trash.

There have been terrible crashes, recent, all over the world, with planes crashing into the sides of mountains at full speed........guess what, they did not vaporize.....no plane in the history of aviation has ever vaporized upon impact.

Sorry bud.........

Bluelight: Lets talk science now, no more conjecture. If you have anything scientific to add, then do so.

SP

Steve,

Three issues to consider.

One, the video has been released from the security cameras nearby that show the 757 hitting the building.

Two, people actually saw the plane tearing down the hill. It basically followed 395 north, then came down. The Pentagon is at the bottom of a hill on landfill that used to be part of the Potomac. The Navy Annex is on the hill and fairly steep up on the west side, while the hill is much more shallow towards the east side, where 395 is with Columbia Pike winding around. There's a NEX gas station at the bottom, then the field, the helicopter landing pad and control tower is dead ahead and the plane hit just to right I believe. I'm purposefully pulling this from memory since I live in Fairfax County (Pentagon is in Arlington County) and have been in either the Pentagon or the Navy Annex at least 50 times in my life, and have driven by there another 500 times. A plane could have been flown in, in contrary to the conspiracy theories around ground turbulance, the grade of the hill, etc.

Three, here are a couple of important specs about the 757:

Basic Dimensions
Wing span 124 ft 10 in (38.05 m)
Overall Length 155 ft 3 in (47.32 m)
Tail Height 44 ft 6 in (13.6 m)
Interior Cabin Width 11 ft 7 in (3.5 m)
Body Exterior Width 12 ft 4 in (3.7 m)

So, if the whole was 16 feet in diameter, the fusalage of a 757 is 12 feet, 4 inches. Where did the extra 3 feet-8 inches come from?

Maybe Bliss or one of the mechanical engineers can explain this better than me, but according to fluid dynamics, what are the ratios of capacity of a tube with an opening on the ends - in this case a whole in a very think wall - as that tube gets incrementally bigger? Can a large, heavy plane with a 12' diamater but much larger wingspan and tail height drill/create a whole which is 16' wide and then fly the whole thing through? Think of the temperatures created by the force of impact.

Thanks, but that evidence is anecdotal.

I have 3 pilot friends, one is a captain for Continental, the other a first officer for American, the other works with Fedex. They all say it is bull shit as well; let alone being an amatur pilot and being able to make that turn he made with a commercial craft.


Now there's some " hard scientific evidence" for you.

Can we all agree that communist mutants from outer space did it and then get on with our lives?

smitopher

Interesting article. The word quackery came to mind several times. Plus what is being addressed is a mental state that is very different from a "normal" mental state, seldom occurs for only a small minority of people or, can be achieved regularly only by monks and the like that spend their lives learning how to do it. And, Timothy Leary claimed to have such experiences using his methods.

This is something totally different from the organized religions that people adhere to and I don't see any connection whatsoever to what the scientists are investigating and the existence of a supreme being.

As far as what you think is my backwards statement, I guess we disagree. It makes perfect sense to me. For example, would you consider immaculate conception a logical occurance that a rational mind could believe happened? You have to ignore scientific facts and just believe it happened.

I think todays religions are tomorrows mythologies that will be studied with amusement and wonder as to how people could have believed such things.

We're just thinking differently, do you see a contradiction in an atheist having a spiritual/mystical experience? I don't.

The fact is what is happening now is a religious war between people that go regularly to buildings named chuches, temples, and mosques and have differing beliefs based on faith and nothing else. It's ironic that it all started when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait to steal oil, we then put military bases in Islamic holy land and that pissed them off enough to start a war with us.

I hope you don't think I'm trite quoting John Lennon

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Penmen, I was foolishly living my life outside of the internet today.

So listen up Muldar, there doesn’t need to be a discussion on this topic because people that live in the sane world already know what happened. The fact that you are still looking for an explanation even after a known murderer and terrorist confessed to doing it says a lot about you.

Even the most left among us acknowledge that the government could not have orchestrated 9/11. They are just too incompetent to have done so. These guys in charge are just politicians, not masterminds. You could throw several bricks inside a graduate history classroom and hit some students who could come up with a better foreign policy than we now have.

So Stayawayjoe, let me try to paraphrase your point. It is that neanderthals living in caves are smarter and more astute than neanderthals living in the White House. Is that about right?

Laguy, That's one way to paraphrase it. Another way to paraphrase it is that no one ever lost any money underestimating the intelligence of the Bush Administration.

The fact that Bush was described by his buddies in the White House as "intellectually uncurious" and this was taken as kind of complement says a lot. That sounds a lot like "doesn't give a shit what anyone says" or "too dumb to know, too stupid to ask".

Yes, he does seem to be proud of his mediocrity:

http://www.depresident.com/george-c-student-bush-video.asp

Incidentally, if you go to the home page for this website, and then hit videos, not only will you have some more George W. embarrassments, but you also will find Arnold's infamous Rio video (Now I feel I have succeeded in adding some ClubHombre relevant content to this thread).

(Message edited by LAguy on September 16, 2006)

(Message edited by LAguy on September 16, 2006)

Arrelius - I agree with you totally.

I was at a funeral at Arlington National Cemetary during the Pentagon attack. The friggin plane flew right overhead and though it looked weird flying so low over the cemetary no one had a clue what was happening or had happened until the pagers went off on the color guards that were working the funeral and I ended up holding a flag while the funeral team was being recalled.

That was the longest day of my life. I couldn't get out of the city and back to my safe neck of the woods for 13 hours.

Also had a friend who is an SES and worked in the pentagon. He was at Dulles catching a flight to Korea at the time when the plane came through his office killing all his support staff. He was on the phone with his admin when the plane came through.

He's pretty certain that a plane went through his office and he equates the naysayers with the idiots that think the earth is square and that all moon walks were done somewhere in Wyoming.

Anyways, heres a pretty good site with facts about the plane crashing into the Pentagon.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html

Like I said, the subject doesn't even warrant a discussion nor should we engage him in a point for point debate.

Again, if you missed it, scroll up and click on that link I posted to see what he thinks about AIDs. He's not just a one trick REtard pony.

Soooo..... What the hell is up with the US Dollar???

I choose to be a member of this club to share and exchange information to make hobbying enjoyable for my self as well as others. I really appreciate the great info and help many of you have provided me over the last couple of years...and I equally find it personally satisfying to go out of my way to help others safely achieve their mongering fantasies.

But please consider that one of the greatest added benefits of this club is its entertainment value. We all enjoy (and should appreciate) members who have the balls to take a controversial or extreme stance on an issue knowing damn well they will become the focus of our target practice. Please don't lose sight that a little ribbing is all good and fun...but dropping nukes (i.e., personally verbally attacking) simply makes those who make this club interesting want to go away.

I for one enjoy SP's posts. I think he brings colorful and interesting discussion to this group. I would be very dissatisfied if he decided to leave this group because a few of us got carried away and start popping caps into him as if he were some damn terrorist.

SP...if I went too far with the self medicating thing...my apologies. Book-Guy...I think I beat on you too a bit...I was out-of-line.

I'm done with this thread...it no longer serves any purpose.

AJ

I worked on air to ground missile test programs many years ago and when one of them hit a hard target at 600 knots you were lucky to find anything bigger than a thimble, and that was with dummy warhead and exhausted propellant.

It is not difficult for me to imagine an airliner full of fuel being vaporized in a similar manner. I also saw a documentary on the world trade center construction technique and it makes perfect sense why it collaped like it did.

As much as I despise the Bu$h administration, I do not buy into the nonsense that they planted explosives in those buildings. However, that does not stop me from believeing that they knew that terrorists were up to something and did not try very hard to stop it.

Alec'... you have no idea how much I love threads like this and very much appreciate Steve and his opinions. Wacky people are always entertaining. I sincerely hope that Steve stays and does not go over the top and get banned.

My second hope is that in about 18 years the son of Turk555, (young Turk2.5) will join this group.

I normally wouldn't post things from other sites, but this from the LA Times today seems especially geared to this thread. Written by a liberal, and also very critical of Bush, it is appropriately entitled "Head in the Sand Liberals". Here is a snippet:

At its most extreme, liberal denial has found expression in a growing subculture of conspiracy theorists who believe that the atrocities of 9/11 were orchestrated by our own government. A nationwide poll conducted by the Scripps Survey Research Center at Ohio University found that more than a third of Americans suspect that the federal government "assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East;" 16% believe that the twin towers collapsed not because fully-fueled passenger jets smashed into them but because agents of the Bush administration had secretly rigged them to explode.

Such an astonishing eruption of masochistic unreason could well mark the decline of liberalism, if not the decline of Western civilization. There are books, films and conferences organized around this phantasmagoria, and they offer an unusually clear view of the debilitating dogma that lurks at the heart of liberalism: Western power is utterly malevolent, while the powerless people of the Earth can be counted on to embrace reason and tolerance, if only given sufficient economic opportunities.

I don't know how many more engineers and architects need to blow themselves up, fly planes into buildings or saw the heads off of journalists before this fantasy will dissipate.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-harris18sep18,0,1897169.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail

I suspect more of the supposed 1/3 of Americans who suspect the federal government "assisted in the 9/11 attacks or took no action to stop them" are right- wing extremists holed up in bunkers in Idaho than they are liberals.

GCL: I'm afraid Turk 5555 has become impotent after suffering the humiliations heaped on him at this site. He has no children, and there is little chance he ever will.

Supposed young Turk 2.5 was the product of Cristiane's overenthusiasm at the Bukkake. She broke the rules.

Laguy,
I think you are dead-on. It's the right wing conspiracy nuts and the Branch Davidian-types who spout this nonsense. I haven't heard a single liberal (and I'm surrounded by 'em) ever utter these ideas.

I don't like to label people as liberal/conservative, Republican/Democrat. I think for most of us, we think in terms of left on some things, right on others, and a dash of libertarian thrown in to fill in the rest.

However, these people do exist and there are several examples of them in this thread and they don't sound like "right-wing nuts" or "Branch-Davidian types" to me.

you get it from both sides since nobody is happy , who would be ? maybe the top 10% but they are always happy since they own all branches of the government ,Ive checked intothese theories a little and sure anythings possible, but I dont believe it if your dumb enough to label yourself a liberal or conservative as if the words actualy meant something than your prolly dopey enough to believe alex jones , I personally dont care Im a guest on this planet for a short time , im gonna have as much fun as possible and eventually die, hopefully later rather than sooner and of natural causes but if its from a terrorist attack I just hope its over quick

I just look at it this way, no wmd in iraq - exposed, no uranium from niger - exposed, enron - exposed, torture - exposed, no flowery welcome in iraq - exposed, no iraq-alquaeda connection - exposed, etc. Why wouldn't people be asking if 911 was more than what was reported?

Ahora was mentioning on mexico chat about the doc involved in the Camarena killing was thrown over the fence for border patrol to pick up. I believe him. Somehow the truth doesn't make it to the nightly news until it is too late.

I've listened to the 911 conspiracy theorists. I don't buy everything, but a few of their questions seem to be legit. The largest question I have is how did pretty much everything go wrong on that day. But another one that bugs me is the flight that crashed. Did we shoot it down, or did it go down on its own? Hey, if we shot it down, I would be ok with it. If it comes out years later that we actually shot it down. I may be upset. Give me truth and let me decide.

Too many times we don't get the whole story and as of right now, it seems to be kicking ourselves in the ass. Case in point, this topic 'what the hell is up with the US dollar?'. We are blowing billions for results that all americans should question. Is truth that valuable? I would say it is. Lotta bucks flying around that we all have to pay back. Lets hope everything works out. But lets be vigilant on questioning spending.

I apologize in advance...I just can't take this being the last post.

-Bullitt--
"I just look at it this way, no wmd in iraq - exposed, no uranium from niger - exposed, enron - exposed, torture - exposed, no flowery welcome in iraq - exposed, no iraq-alquaeda connection - exposed, etc. "

They have found WMDs in Iraq. Were they nukes? No. But they were WMDs. It has also been stated (although I'm not googling for it) that most of the WMDs from Iraq are in Syria.

Yellow-cake and Niger...omfg...facts...an 'undercover' CIA operative who was a donor to Clinton and Algore sent her husband, a TOTAL left-winger, to prove what something nobody gives a shiot about.

Enron...r u fkn kidding me? 1st, Enron Execs gave more money to Bill Clinton than Bush. Yes Ken Lay was a registerd (R). The corporate corruption you're implying occurred on CLINTON's watch. It was discovered & prosecuted by the Bush Admin.

Torture - ugh - I guess that makes you a GDI? There are high-brow sorority girls who've done worse stuff than the terrorists in Club Gitmo.

Iraq-alQuaeda connection...do you watch the news? Was Saddam in on the WTC attack? No. Did Saddam allow al-Zarqawi refuge in Iraq before GWII? Yes. Did Saddam pay $25,000 per suicide bomber before GWII? Yes.


LaGuy . . . nice try. Sure, there are plenty of right-wingers who don't trust the government. God bless them and now God bless the libs who are starting not to trust the guvamint. (Maybe one day the ACLU will fight for citizens rights instead of the NAMBLA crap they do now.) However, the claim to the 9/11 conspiracy theory belongs SOLELY to the left.

Apologies again to all for the length.

Just because GW is an "intellectually uncurious" imbecile incapable of logical, critical thought or reasoning, all too willing conduit for Neocon agendas and proven wrong and wrong headed about just about everything does not make the 9/11 attacks a government conspiracy.

To me, the attacks were most assuredly the work of Islamic inspired fanatics who hate the West in general and the USA in particular. I am of the opinion that we, as Western Culture, are most likely headed for a WW3, not of countries but of cultures.

I do hope to be proven wrong about this but history does not bode well.

What I will not accept is the destruction of the traditions of All people being created equal, Due process, religious liberty and pluralism (including an absolutely secular state) and upholding standards of behavior by ourselves that we expect of others...
In order to "save" them.

The argument that "your rights are worthless if you are dead" is a logical fallacy that anyone who is honest about their logic has to admit. If you don't understand that "Appeal to Consequences" is failed logic, I can't help you.

SP's beliefs may be... hard to swallow but at least he is not promoting policies that I consider evil.

Ticasonar:

It's so nice how you make up facts. It is also cute how you use devices like "It has been stated . . . ," without disclosing that the persons who so stated were doing so without a shred of evidence.

I know how difficult it is in this day and age to do google searches to try to verify facts, but perhaps you should try now and then. It might even take less time than it takes you to make up your "facts." Provide your links so we can evaluate their credibility.

Here are a few pertaining to your claim about Enron's campaign contributions:

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20020118.html

http://www.citizen.org/print_article.cfm?ID=6693

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/enron/index.asp


Now, you may argue the sources I have quoted are not credible or are biased. So, if that is the case, give us some credible sources that show Enron Execs gave more money to Bill Clinton than Bush. Good luck!

Your comment about Saddam paying $25,000 per suicide bomber has nothing to do with al Qaeda. It is borne of the same brand of ignorance that lumps Sunnis and Shias together, or Saddam and al Qaeda, in both cases natural and committed enemies.

I suppose it is possible the ACLU took a case or two that pertained to NAMBLA. However, I don't know this to be true. Give us a credible source showing exactly what the ACLU has done in this regard.

>>>>Yellow-cake and Niger...omfg...facts...an 'undercover' CIA operative who was a donor to Clinton and Algore sent her husband, a TOTAL left-winger, to prove what something nobody gives a shiot about.<<<<

Didn't Bush refer to this very issue in his State of the Union speech that preceded the Iraq war? How dare you call him a nobody! LOL

Incidentally, one might ask why bother responding to the nonsense you posted; I don't anticipate I'm going to change your mind. But, I really cringe at the idea that some people may read your posts and actually believe there may be a grain of truth in them. Worse yet, someone might quote them as evidence, along the lines of "It has been said that . . . " ROTFL

(Message edited by LAguy on September 18, 2006)

Maybe when ticasonar is returning from his next trip to Costa Rica or wherever and he gets secondaried for 2 hours and gets his notebook confiscated because it has a pic of a tica on it who may be a hooker, perhaps then he can express his undying loyalty to the Bush administration and they'll let him go.

Stayawayjoe has the best points. Was there a governnment conspiracy to create 9/11? Of course not, those dumbfucks are too incompetent to create something so simple that causes so much damage.

I'm surprised LA Guy hasn't mentioned the point that you know when someone is defending a losing position when they start deflecting blame. It wasn't Bush because Clinton didn't capture Osama. It wasn't Bush's bad on Enron, even though he's an oilman and close personal friends with the Lay/Skilling crew. Clinton didn't stop Enron, so it's his fault.

Saddam paying suicide bombers' families in the West Bank after they attacked Israeli targets is an assanine argument. Once again, does fighting in the West Bank, invading Iraq and Al-quada have anything to do with one another? Not at all. Correct comment about most Americans having little to zero understanding of the Middle East. Everything gets lumped together with no understanding that Arabs are tribal and don't care for other Arab tribes, Arabs in general have a hatred with Persians (Iranians) and Turks, all of the small ethnicities thrown in the mix. Instead, you get spraypaint generalities.

Lots of Americans firmly believe that Osama worked for Saddam, that Saddam paid them to fly planes into the WTC. Pathetic.

And Ticasonar, will you please enlighten us as to what WMDs were discovered in Iraq? And not the internet myth of the "Air Force taking photos of the nukes/chemical weapons/whatever being driven to the Syrian border". That was debunked three years ago.

Al Swearengen for President
He's the right cocksucker for the job.

(Message edited by smitopher on September 18, 2006)

Hey Laguy-

Check out this site for Enron's campaign contributions to Clinton and his gang.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/5/14/12475.shtlml