Recently large demostrations have taken place across the country protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of illegal immmigration.
Certain people are angry that the US might protect its own borders,might make it harder to sneak into this country and , once here , stay indefinitly.
let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protest.
Let's say I break into your house. Let's say when you discover me in your house, you insist I leave. But I say, "I have made all the beds and washed all the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors. I have done all the things you don't like to do and I am hard working and honest (except when I broke into your house.)
According to the protesters, not only must you let me stay, you must add me to your family's health insurance plan, educate my kids and provide other benefits to me and my family, my husband will do your yard work because he too is hardworking and honest (except for when he too broke into your house)
If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my right to be there.
It is only fair, after all because you have a nicer house than I do, and I am just trying to better myself.
I am hardworking and honest , except for breakng into your house.
What a deal for me! I live in your house, contibuting only a fraction of the cost of my keep.
And there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of being selfish and having prejudice.
Oh yeah, I insist you learn my language so you can communicate with me!

Beachman, very eloquent. And lord knows no red-blooded Amerrrrrican would ever complain when over a span of a year after another massive amnesty and a military crackdown on the border causes Frank Perdue to raise the cost of chickens 150%, Wal-Mart prices to go up 40% and Strawberries to be priced like fucking TRUFFLES because all of a sudden there are no illegals to prime their economic pumps at slave wages anymore.

Wasn't so long ago when Clinton couldn't fill his cabinet because EVERYONE that was interviewed had an illegal working as a nanny or something and they hadn't paid payroll taxes for them.

You can act all SHOCKED about illegals driving a significant portion of the American economy if you want to, but the list of people getting rich off of them is a lot bigger than the trailerpark rednecks wondering where their minimum wage jobs went. And they have a LOT more pull.

Beachman, wait until you throw some U.S. sweatshop owners in jail, and THEN rant about the illegals bitching for their rights...

Porker-

Absoultly....go after the employers. That is why we need a national ID like most countries have! Make it a felony for employers to hire illegals and if they are found guilty seize the company and the assests and auction them off. In many cities across the country including Miami if you caught soliciting a prostitute (a misdemeanor)on the streets in your car....they can seize and impound your car and if you are convicted they can keep it and acution it off because it was used in the commission of a crime. How fast do you think companies would start abiding by the law if that were to be the law.
Walmart prices won't go up 40%.....most everything is imported from Asia. There can be a worker-guest program or some other solution.
Here in Florida the construction jobs, roofing, etc are going to the illegals. The owners of the companies are charging the same as companies without illegals....they are just putting more in their own pockets. They pay them 7-9 bucks an hour instead of $12-$15 and don't have match their Social Security and pay no workmen's compensation insurance. The poor and uneducated American citizens and legal immigrants are the ones who lose these jobs to the illegals. I am not talking about the migrant workers.....I am talking about the fairly good paying construction jobs and I know what I am talking about because I see it everyday in my industry!
The companies and the illegals are both wrong in breaking the law and I hope you aren't suggesting that two wrongs make a right!
And what rights are you refering to that the illegals are entitled to I am bitching about! What rights would you give me if I broke illegally into your house!

Beachman, with the increase in inflation due to the higher prices for construction, are you willing to take a 50% cut in your real estate commissions?

What is really funny is how the Mexican gov handles immigration. Then they turn around and protest us for attempting to enforce our laws. Huh? They want their citizens to come here and send money home, but you try and hang out in Mexico and live. Try and buy a house. Try and protest for that matter. Try and fucking fart in the wrong direction. Forget about it.

When we travel to foreign countries I think it is important to respect the people and country you are in. At least attempt to speak the language and obey the laws. It should go both ways.

I agree with Beachman's last post that the companies and the illegals are both wrong in breaking the law. I also think its terrible the number of places that don't adequately enforce their laws against prostitution including those directed at johns. To set an example, I suggest the next time Beachman breaks any prostitution laws, either in the U.S. or elsewhere, he turn himself in. This would set a fine example that illegal immigrants and employers could then follow.

>wait until you throw some U.S. sweatshop owners in jail, and THEN rant about the illegals bitching for their rights...

"Feds to target Ariz. employers of undocumented workers" - http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/1004workplace.html.

You were saying...?

Illegal Immigrants are a major nuisance for sure, but they are nowhere near being the greatest threat facing our nation.

The republicans have fucked up everything they have touched since gaining control over the U.S. House of Representatives in 1994 and the U. S. Senate in 1996 and it is finally coming home.

They cannot talk about creating high wage jobs for more than a few of their cronies, they cannot talk about success in the middle east, they cannot talk about the environment except to pretend global warming is not real, they cannot talk about balanced budgets, they cannot talk about trade surplus, they cannot talk about energy independence and most of all they cannot talk about a peaceful democratic Iraq or a dead Osama Bin Laden.

Therefore, the republicans have turned to Mexican bashing as their saving grace. Just blame all your problems on the little brown people crossing our Southern Border and vote for the party represented by that big fat elephant because they promise to build a fucking fence that will not do a damn thing besides change the smuggling routes and make some bolt cutter salesman very rich.

The republicans have had over five years since 9/11 and they are just finally starting to address the most ineffective aspect of the problem. The GOP still opposes strong employer sanctions and talk about national identification is mostly election year rhetoric. Republicans will never solve the real problem. Let's give the other guys a chance rather than stupidly listening to the likes of Limbaugh, Hannity and O'Rielly to reinforce your senseless blather about liberals, liberals and more liberals.

Laguy-

The difference is that if I were to get caught breaking a prostitution law I would be put in jail until I posted bail....in some cities my picture would be posted on cable TV to shame me.
If I didn't show up in court a warrant would be put out for my arrest and any traffic violation or even if my tail light was out and I was pulled over They would put me back in jail. In some states revoke my driver's license for not showing up for court.
For not showing up in Court they may even send a Sheriff's Deputy to my house or where I work with a warrant to arrest me. All the those things can happen just for a $10 parking ticket too.
If you are caught being an illegal immigrant....a felony....you have more rights than an American citizen comitting a misdemeanor.
The Republicans and Democrats are both guilty for this problem!

Beachman,

Are you the only guy in Orlando who cuts his own grass? Have you done ID checks on everyone that does your lawn, flips your burger, cleans your office, mops the floor at the local shopping center?

I applaude attempts at stopping illegal immigration. Secure the borders first, which allows you to determine much more easily who and how many are already here illegally. Get businesses to understand that hiring an illegal will bring some actual fines and heavy fines at that. Stop substituting cheap illegal labor for productivity gains and higher wages for the American lower class. But, keep in mind - the biggest employment pools for illegals is not corporatations but construction and homeowners. Everyone talks tough on illegals but then bitches about paying an extra 10 bucks on a lawn service or an extra hundred to get some carpet laid or a some roof tiles replaced.

I'm willing to spend an extra quarter on my next value meal at Wendy's and am willing to spend a few hundred extra the next time I get my house painted or to get a new deck built if it means using poor, legal Americans instead of poor, illegal wetbacks. The question is, is everyone else?

Cat, yes. I'm also willing to flip some hot illegal whores a quarter for a roll in the sack tho-- don't hold that against me. Come to think of it, I've yet to see a hot, nubile illegal around where I live. Are they all chubby and pock marked?

Phoenixguy, that story ran here in Tucson as well. I was really surprised at the huge increase in arrests of employers. Did you see the 9th circuit court shut down the voter ID requirement? (I think it was prop 200) Maybe I dont know the ins and outs of this, but doesnt it seem reasonable to show ID if you are going to vote? Whats the big freakin deal? We have to show ID on some of the most common things, I dont understand.

Catocony-

A 20 year old kid going to College cuts my lawn and a team of 3 women( American Citizens) who are retired living on fixed incomes clean our Office Building....they actually enjoy being productive and we all treat them with more dignity than we do each other.. Like I said before....the contruction jobs are going to the illegals because the companies pay "the illegals less , with no benefits and no workman's comp. The companies are still charging the same to put on a new roof ....they are just keeping the money.
A big part of the problem is that the American youth has been brainwashed that doing "Menial Jobs" like flipping burgers, yard work, etc is beneath them and their parents would rather go into debt with second mortgages and credit cards so their kids won't be "embarassed doing Menial Jobs." These kids and families go into massive student debt from loans ....no so much to get an education....but so they can go party and feel that they are entitled to all the luxuries while they get an education like i-pods, ring tones, x-boxes, camera phones, etc. They don't have "time" to work a part-time job, but they always find time to party and play video games and watch Reality TV" and play for hours on the internet with sites like facebook, youtube, ClubHombre....oh sorry, etc. The majority of kids in major Univercities make no major sacrificies while in college it is mostly just a big playground for them with their parents and themselves going into big debt because they refuse to do "Menial Jobs"
Catocony- You ask me if I am willing to cut my Real Estate commissions 50% because of the increase cost of construction. I don't know what your point is? Real Estate commissions have been around for years and you are free to not pay a Real Estate commission when you sell and if you chose to use a Real Estate Agent the commission is always negotiable.
I think we agree that there has to be something more to control and put a reseonable end to illegal immigration in these country. Will we deal with it now or will it become a violent issue
when the next Major Recession comes and unemployment becomes a major issue and American Citizens will then begin to assert their right to do "Menial Jobs"

AZguy,

Lots of people do not have a photo ID. If you don't have a car, you might not have a driver's license. Lots of people don't. Other than driver's license, what photo ID would most people have? I have a total of three pieces of ID that have my picture on it - a driver's license, a US passport and a UK passport. So, if you don't drive because you live in a city or something, you probably won't have a driver's license. A majority of people do not have a passport either.

The illegal immigrants doing the lawn maintentance and construction jobs may be the most visible, but they are certainly not the majority. The majority are almost invisible to you. What's more, going after employers won't necessarily fix the problem. Here's why....

There appear to be fairly sophisticated methods by which illegals are able to aquire documentation which is quite difficult to recognize as fraudulant....certainly good enough to give employers enough deniability to avoid prosecution.

Heavy handed methods used to distinguish between legal and illegal mexicans would be very costly and potentially set employers up for discrimination lawsuits by the legals. And as such, having reasonable deniability and strong incentive to hire, they will. The restaurant that has been having a hard time filling the busboy or dishwasher position with good dependable help will take anyone with the right documents...go to restaurants just about anywhere in the US and you'll come across them, and they are there because regular americans either won't take the jobs or are less dependable in these low end positions.

But again, these are not the larger share....to find them climb in a truck....head for the produce packing plants just about anywhere in the US....head to meat processors, the grocery distribution warehouses and custom distribution warehouses of our american supply network. You'll find them by the hundreds. Tyson has meat packing plants in more than half the states, so if you don't believe me just stop by at shift change.

Take the grocery warehouses for example. The big grocery chains have ways of minimizing their union employees....rather than have company employees unload your truck, they have lumper services do it....the guy unloading your truck is not employed by Safeway, he's employed by Johnny's Lumping Service.....no benefits, no job security, nothing....what's more, if Safeway doesn't want a particular guy on their dock, they don't have to go through all of the legal hassle of firing and documentation, they simply tell Johnny the guy can't be there anymore. Safeway is not responsible if he's illegal.

It's gotten to the point where it's not just receiving companies using lumper services, shippers are starting to use them too.

People like to talk about taxes as a major problem with illegals.....it's not as big a deal as you think. Employers will maintain their deniability by keeping their book completely legal....they most certainly ARE collecting and paying the taxes on these people...including social security taxes which most illegals will never collect on. It amounts to very sizable windfall for our failing pyramid scheme of a retirement entitlement program....and you can bet the accountants in Washington know it.

While I believe there should be respect for the rule of law and the security of our borders, we are in this mess deep...and I'm not sure that the majority of Americans have any true understanding of just how much it would hit their bank accounts, or their supply chain, if these people were suddenly forced out. It would cause supply disruptions most people can't even imagine and it would cost a fortune to correct.

Most people have no idea just what a financial benefit they are receiving from people they don't even know are there. On balance I think we as legal citizens are benefiting substantially.

And while dangerous criminals slip through in the mix, the vast majority are hardworking and (beyond their illegal status)otherwise law abiding. I've gotten to know many, and most are pretty good guys. I count some among my friends.

What's more, if I were in their shoes I'd likely be trying it too.

Great conversation!

The thing that bugs me the most about illegal aliens are that they don't have to pay taxes, but they enjoy many of the benefits of tax paying citizens. If they don't have to pay taxes, they don't need to make as much money lowering wages in certain various low skill segments. If we can figure out how to tax them, then I think the game is over. We know how much money they make, where they live, how many kids they got. Everything.

This is not an easy problem, but first, I think you go after the most obvious big companies using illegal aliens. Food processing. Go after them, and I think the ripple effect will be large.

I think it is stupid to build a wall on our border. That's not going to stop Tyson from doing this stuff.

Ejack1-

If you believe there should be respect for the rule of the law and security of our borders...then what is the solution. Why should illegal aliens have more rights than US Citizens in any situation or matter. Why should illegals have more rights than immigrants who are legally either trying to get here or are already here and going through the legal procedure to stay legal.
It is way overstated how important the illegals are to our economy verses what they cost our economy.

From a cost analysis I know that the government makes takes into account the direct costs and benefits of illegals, but one giant thing those figures do not take into account - and never can - are the indirect costs. They compute the cost of three extra teachers and an ESL teacher on a school, but they do not compute the lost time the rest of the class experiences while the teachers spend time with the non-English speaking kids to get a concept across. I doubt if the aggrevation that you experience on a daily basis in dealing with a foreign culture - magnified because you're dealing with it here. If you're in Mexico and getting a burger at McDonalds and don't speak Spanish, you accept that it may take a bit of effort to get your order taken and if there is a mistake, it's acceptable. The same thing happening at the McDonalds down the street from you is not acceptable and as you walk out in disgust because they couldn't understand you, that is problem. I use McDonalds as an example but the same goes for much bigger issues. The guy running the painting company may be American or at least speaks English, but the workers don't. If the manager leaves for a while and the guys who are left there make a small mistake, you can't get the issue resolved until the guy gets back. You get pissed, the workers get confused, and nothing gets done. The constant nagging worry/concern that something might not be done right is also not computed.

Cat, if they were here legally they would have a passport, no? US citizens have to have some kind of ID. How about a thumb print like if you are going to cash a check. What about a national id system/card? Go to SA citizen or not and tell a cop you dont have your papers.

Hey, I dont blame them for coming over. I know I would. They just need to respect our laws. we have to when we go there or we are fucked. what really sucks is if I dont pay my taxes, I'll be sitting in a jail. Man, I wonder how much dough I would have if I never had to pay taxes..................... ok, I am back. It is a nice thought, but I dont see how a wall would work. There has to be a better way. Wasnt there a study that said most over stay their visa?? I dont know. I do know the border needs to be sealed, I just dont know how. I will leave it up to the brilliant politicians. ha ha

US citizens don't have to have an ID, that's what I explained in my post above. I wasn't talking about illegals not having driver's licenses or passports, i was talking about US citizens. The only thing you legally need a photo ID for is to drive. You don't even legally need a photo ID to get on a plane.

The part that irritates me the most is when Vincente Fox or another Mexican politician gets on TV and bitches about the US trying to control it's borders. As has been stated, if it weren't for the United States Mexico would be in a perpetual state of civil war since there aren't enough jobs and national wealth to come close to keeping the economy running. But, when you can export 10% of your population and get cash infusions of billions of dollars per year, what a great system. You export your least educated, least employable peasants and get money back in return, and all you have to do is give them a little nudge and maybe help out a little with maps and supplies for the big swim or desert hike. Maybe have the Mexican Army give you a quick boost over the border and help out the coyotes.

Do not ocnfuse one issue with another. Illegal immigration and a national ID system (I oppose both) are two very different subjects.

All US citizens need to have a social security number. You need it to pay taxes, and get a loan, and virtually everything else. It puts you in the 'system'.

That's the deal with illegal aliens, they don't have a social security number. Therefore, they don't have to pay taxes, and more importantly, they are not in the system so they are more disguised.

There should be a law that if you are working in the country, then you should have a social security number. Oh wait, that law already exists, we just need to enforce it rather than look the other way.

Putting all the illegal aliens in the system would make the country more secure, and also increase taxes. I can't see why we don't at least start the process.

You can't even get the Democrats to agree to prove you are an American Citizen to vote. What was all their bitching and crying about their votes being disenfranchise in Florida in 2000.
Didn't John F. Kennedy say "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"
Of course the illegals are disenfranchising American Citizens votes by voting in our elections illegally but the Democrats seem to have lost their crusade about even " one vote being disenfranchised.
What about passing a law that when you register to vote, you have to prove you are an American Citizen and they give you a free tamper proof photo ID as your registration card....they give you a registration card already without a photo. Congress could pass a bill to pay for this. Lets see even at 250,000,000 voters of age mutiplied by $10 comes out to 2.5 billion dollars and a couple of hundred million dollars a year to mantain the program. Sounds like a very small price to pay to insure the integrity of the election process and take the arguement away from the Democrats that $10 is an unfair poll tax.
The Democrats don't want change because even though there are cases of voter fraud for both parties....the Democrats are legendary in this area.
Joe Kennedy buying the Daley machine in Chicago and the fraud in the election of 1960 stole the election for JFK.

Beachman, do you actually know what disenfranchising means? Seriously, explain to me where illegal aliens are voting, and how they get on the voting rolls. Then explain how an illegal voting (if they do) takes a vote away from a citizen.

The requirement that you need a photo ID to vote means that you can be denied your vote (which is what you are trying to avoid) if you do not have your ID with you. What if you present an ID and the person working the polls says it's not you and denies you your vote?

Most people do show a photo ID - BT, yes, everyone needs to show ID sometime but explicitely not a photo ID. But, there is no constitutional grounds to require a photo ID. They are open to interpretation, which is always dangerous on election day. Provisional ballots are worth shit, since they are rarely admitted, so you can't let voters on the rolls just cast those if they don't have a photo ID.

What about we have INS at the polling stations and if you can't even speak English they haul your ass in until you can prove you belong here? Why do we have to be such pussies and coddle everyone in the country? If I overstay a Thai visa by one day and get found out my ass will be in the slam pronto.

I'm no xenophobe. Hell, the simplest/most financially sound course of action is probably legalize all the people already here and get them to start paying taxes. But to pretend it's impossible to do anything about the hordes of illegals here is disingenuous at best. It is not a lack of ability that fails us, it is a lack of will.

As for making this country safer - I don't recall seeing any Mexican hijackers on the planes that flew into the twin towers. So how the hell did our "safety" get tied into this issue?

this is an intentional flame. i have not heard a peep that any of you own a small labor intensive labor business. i do [a small restaurant]. i employ 25 people all of mexican heritage. not a single american has applied for one of the jobs that these employees do in over the 13 years i have had the business. all pay SS taxes , income taxes payroll taxes etc. without ever getting any benefit from what they pay. many own their own homes. they are contributing members of our society with an incredible work ethic. sure, many have trouble with english but so do i and i am a native american just as i find spanish and portugese a bitch to learn as many of you know. you want to totally fuck up the american economy, kick out all illegals and put up a wall at the border. be prepared to buy your mc donald's burger for $10 or get your garbage up. they have become the productive new american middle class. can you say that about any american especially those who still want a hand out over what happened over 150 years ago.

Sweetmesquite-

You say you employ 25 people of Mexican heritage....but you don't say if they are illegals or not. Don't tell me every restaurant is going to be expensive because they can not find cheap illegal help. There are still many places in the country that the illegals haven't infiltrated and capitalism still works fairly.
I am sure you pay all their SS taxes, income taxe, payroll taxes, etc just like you report all the CASH business your restaurant makes as income.I know many small labor intensive businesses that do well by not hiring illegals and I know many small labor intensive businesses that struggle or have shut down because they can not compete against the businesses that higher ILLEGALS.
You Sweetmessquite are the other half of the problem the employer who breaks the law to profit and then trys to justify it using scare tatics that everything will cost 5 times as much.
You have to be kidding us when you say the illegals have become a "productive new american middle class"

Beach,

Please don't attack Sweet, he doesn't normally contribute to threads like this and as a business owner, he definitely can contribute. I actually agree with a lot that you are saying, but your tone is just so bad. I'm going to rewrite your posts making essentially the same points, but not in such a confrontational manner.

Sweet,

Thanks for posting. It really helps to get a real world perspective. How is it that your company pays taxes for the aliens that work at your company? Have they provided a social security number or something? Moreover, if they have a social security number, and your company is doing the proper tax withholdings, what makes them illegal?

Do you worry that one day the government will come in deport them? How much less do you pay them versus a 16 year old high school student working at McDonalds?

I really appreciate your contributions to Beach's thread!

Topic moved to Politics section

aa

Perhaps they are all "independent contractors" that are paid on a 1099.

I'm all for a guest worker program but not until you can prove to me that you aren't letting people in as guest workers at the same time as thousands of people are still coming illegally.

Regarding ID to vote, I need a photo ID to get into Costco, to get on an airplane, and to make a credit card purchase. But to vote ..... nah, it's not necessary. We wouldn't want to risk "disenfranchising" you.

Let's return the territory the US stole from Mexico (Mexico was twice as big before) and send all illegal latinos into said lands. Let's send everyone who is not a native american or a descendant thereof, back to their ancestors countries or territories (i.e. Europe, Africa, the Middle East). That would live the original territory (now occupied by the US) free of all types of illegal aliens.

The grand majority of us present US inhabitants were never invited to come here (by the original people of the land), in the first place. Thus, almost all of us are aliens and illegal too, for present laws WE have invented. Therefore, for all I know, I shall zzzipppp my mouth, for who am I to repudiate any human being just because he or she wants to come in four generations after my greatgrandparents. End of problem.

I'm somewhere in the middle on this debate in that I haven't really made up my mind what the right thing to do is. Part of my uncertainty stems from the difficulty in knowing objectively what the economic implications are of illegal immigration.

What bothers me though is when people, for example Lou Dobbs (you know, from that leftist news organization CNN) make it seem the immigration laws express the height of U.S. morality, and allowing violations is somehow akin morally to a failure to enforce murder laws, or crimes involving violence against the individual, and so forth. To me the immigration laws are not motivated primarily by some high moral principle. What they express is the desire of the citizens of the U.S. to keep their toys, the ones we have because through a fortuity we were lucky enough to be born in one of the richest countries in the world; even Bill Gates would have been lucky to accumulate any wealth had he be born a peasant in a country like, for example, Biafra.

Put another way, one of the primary objectives of the immigration laws is to keep U.S. citizens relatively wealthy.

This is not to say that some level of greed is necessarily bad, indeed it may be the engine that keeps healthy economies running. But at least let us concede what the immigration debate is fundamentally about. It is not about some high moral principle; it is fundamentally about keeping our toys.

So, if and when I figure out which course of action is most likely to allow us to satisfy a reasonable level of greed balanced by some social justice concerns, I will then be in a position to know where I stand in this debate. But in the meantime, I'm neither going to consider those who adopt a hardline on illegal immigration as the pillars of a high morality, nor am I going to equate those who try to enter this country illegally so they can better themselves economically as the pond scum of this earth.

Going off on a little tangent...

I work in a restaurant, too, and there was one summer when we had a couple exchange students from Argentina working as bus boys.

I really enjoyed their teamwork and work ethic. They really got the job done. The money they were making from tips was way more then what they could earn in Argentina. I could tell they appreciated the opportunity to work here in the U.S. and they earned their pay.

A lot of my co workers do not appreciate how fortunate they are in being able to earn as much as they do waiting tables.

It would take days for someone working at the Princess Copacabana hotel in Brasil to earn what one server can earn in one night at the restaurant.

I am not an economist, but I believe that if a person has a job, pays taxes, spends their money, or saves it in a bank, then the economy is neutral if that person leaves. If they are saving their money in a mattress, then the economy improves if they leave, and if they are in debt, the economy is worse if they leave.

This is my point about getting the illegal aliens in the system. So they can have bank accounts and pay taxes. American unemployment rates are still relatively low despite the huge federal and trade deficits. There was some indication during the Clinton administration that the economy was overheated, because unemployment was too low creating an inflationary situation.

My personal belief is that there is little economic impact on the immigration issue. It is stupid to believe that getting rid of illegal aliens will create jobs. If we really wanted to create jobs, we would be much better off getting them to pay taxes and put their money in a bank.

When one thinks of an American, one generally thinks of an English speaking white person. Immigrants are neither of these and are changing the dynamics and demographics of the country. The movement toward tougher immigration laws is a resistance to the changing demographics of the country and not related to economics.

Solid808-

As far as your post says they were here LEGALLY.
I think 99+% of Americans have no problem with immigration if they come here LEGALLY and can be acountable for their actions and not have more rights than American Citezens and legal immigrants. Where it can be controlled and be as fair as possible. It is ridiculous that it takes many months or years just to get an application approved for visa (even a tourist visa) for most people to come to this country....even if they are being sponsored by an American Citizen who signs a legal "affidavit of support" that legally bounds the American Citizen to pay the US government if the visitor breaks the terms of their visa.
As far as the economy is concern what will happen if we stop the flow of illegals that everything will cost more. It is plain propaganda! Has the economy gone to shit the last couple of years because gas prices doubled up to $3 a gallon. Did gas consumption really drop much? The economy will adjust to the changes if the illegal immgration is greatly reduced. Even though there are Companies and small business owners that are benifiting from the hiring of the illegals they are not passing the savings on to the American public.....but are pocketing those profits selfishly for themselves and paying off the politicians.... while they cry that is the only way they can stay in business.
They are already going after some employers who are hiring illegals and you would be amazed how quickly other employers who hire illegals in the same area are cleaning up their acts.

Beachman,

Since you couldn't explain how illegals are registering to vote and how their voting takes the franchise away from citizens, can you explain how illegals have more rights than citizens? Can you also give an example where a US citizen who sponsors a visa of some sort for a foreigner had to pay the government when the visitor broke the terms of their visa and became an illegal? Do you think that by allowing easier access to the US by speeding up the issuance of tourist visas will not result in increased numbers of illegals? What percentages of illegals came here on a valid visa and then stayed and became illegal after the fact?

Catocony-

Lets see when an illegal votes their vote cancels out another voter's vote who is voting differently than the illegal voter. They take away the power of the legal vote to count effecting the outcome of the election.
Let see millions of illegals pay no Federal income tax and if they they are caught committing a felony (being here illegal) they are not held in jail until they post bond ....but are just given a notice to appear in court later which 95% of them never do. American Citezen who don't pay a parking ticket and then get pulled over for a tail light being out get arrested , taken to the Police station and if they cannot post bail are jailed!
Anyone who has sponsored anyone to come here on a family, fiance, etc visa will tell you....the American Citizen as one of the conditions for the visa being issued, signs an "affidavit of support" guaranteeing the sponsored immigrant will will not become a public charge in the United states and will also guarantee the sponsored immigrant "will maintain his or her noimmigrant status, if admitted temporaily and will depart prior to the expiration of his or her authorized stay in the United States."

Go to the website and read the affidavit carefully and you may understand.


http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/formsfee/forms/files/i-134.pdf

I don't know the percentage of illegal imigrants that came here first legally but I think the great majority of them don't end up being here illegally I know will here about the student visa overstays .....but even student visas the great majority have no problems.
I do know that the illegals that came her illegally and are here now illegally.......... is 100%

Hmm. Just exactly how many illegal aliens are supposedly out there voting?

Most of the illegals I know (and I know more than I probably should) don't understand American politics, and absolutely don't want to go to a place where news cameras and police cars are hanging around--which describes polling places in the northeast.

OTOH, several people have been begging the question of non-participation by illegals in the whole social security/tax/etc. infrastructure of the U.S.

Please remember that illegals who are using artificial paperwork (for instance, someone else's SSN) *are* contributing taxes, etc. in just the same way as you do.

In fact, there was a scare-monger news story on the Fox affiliate about a woman whose SSN was "pirated" by illegal aliens. They reported tens of thousands of dollars worth of earnings, and she was pissed because it messed up her tax return.

(Nobody had the sense to take her aside and tell her to become a contract worker responsible for her own taxes. Dolts.)

AFAIK, the illegals that are really outside the system are the ones doing "day labor"--landscaping, short order cooking, and the like. The ones that have "full time" jobs, particularly those with correct-but-stolen paperwork, really are participating in the system, but because they're illegal (and they have a different skin color) they don't get many services back.


To me, though, the whole "immigration debate" boils down to racist demagoguery. The jobs that illegal aliens from Mexico are "stealing" from Americans are low-end jobs. I'm working with a Canadian company whose white-collar, middle class workers routinely come into the US to work, illegally (they play "pass the permit").

If I'm going to get upset about jobs, I'd rather keep the $40k jobs than the $10k ones. But Canadians are white, and have cool accents.

Likewise, if we count the number of terrorists...err..."Islamic Fascists" captured attempting to cross the Mexican border: 0. The number captured attempting to cross the Canadian border is considerably higher. Similarly for incidents of internal (to Mexico, or to Canada) Islamic terrorist(*) incidents: the number is considerably higher in Canada. Despite this inconvenient fact, our "security" requires a wall along the Mexican border.

(*) Yes, I know that both Mexico and Canada have had non-Islamic terrorist incidents. But neither the Zapatistas nor the Quebec Liberation Front are likely to be gunning for us.

Dem Gnomes

PHX GUYS,

That AZCENTRAL link you provided had one great bit of information:

"As of August of fiscal 2006, agents had arrested 668 business owners or managers in the employment of undocumented workers, 525 more than in the seven prior years combined."

You cannot ignore a situation for seven years and expect to be credible. What more proof does anybody need that all of the illegal immigrant bashing that republicans are obsessed with is just an election year gimmick to distract from their failures in every other aspect of governance (e.g. Iraq, health care, budget deficits, foreign policy, civil rights, etcetera). About the only FREEDOM that Bu$h has protected is Osama Bin Laden's.

We need to stop the illegal employers first and that will take care of a very large percentage of the migrant workers. Only then will employers begin to pressure congress for comprehensive reform and guest worker programs. A lot of the problems will go away when workers can walk through a port of entry, take a bus to where the work is, then return home when the work is complete, but no more than 18 months.

As for Prop 200 voter identification requirements being rejected by the 9th circuit court of appeals, the simple fact is that many American citizens cannot produce citizenship documents and have no idea how to go about finding the necessary proof. We need governmental offices that can research every applicants heritage and issue acceptable identification at ZERO COST before the regulations can take effect. Mongers may enjoy the services of the desperately poor, but they may not understand the challenges. Furthermore, there is no evidence of large numbers of illegal immigrants voting. In fact there is not much evidence of poor people voting and that apathy just contributes to their dilema.

Beachman,

Are you assuming that they are voting against you? You just described every election that's ever been contested. Some people vote for one guy, others for the other guy or guys. So what is your point? do you think there are roving gangs of illegals signing up to vote?

Again, I ask you to give one example of an American citizen having to pay the federal government due to a visa they sponsored. Don't tell me the statute that says the government could conceivably do so, give me one example where they have.

And finally, regardless of immigration status, if you are arrested and charged you either stay in jail or post bail. No ifs, ands or buts. You are confusing two seperate issues. What I think you're referring to - and your written English is atrocious and hard to follow so I may have misread it - is that if an illegal is picked up for being illegal, instead of being held in a jail they are released until their court date. However, that is not related in any way to a criminal matter. Illegals don't get let go if they commit a crime because they're illegal.

Seriously, if you're going to write crap like this, at least read what you're supposedly writing about, and then take five extra minutes and clean up your writing. Your posts are written very poorly.

I take exception to one of the points made by the Gnomes of Zurich. Canadians do not have cool accents. In fact their accents kind of hurt my ears.

From www.fredoneverything.net

From the Washington Post: “Nearly half of the nation's children under 5 are racial or ethnic minorities, and the percentage is increasing mainly because the Hispanic population is growing so rapidly, according to a census
report released today.”

Now in newspaper parlance, “minorities” means “permanently underperforming and inassimilable minorities,” which is to say blacks, Latinos and, when anybody remembers, American Indians. It very seldom means successful minorities, such as Chinese, Greeks, white men, Jews, or Anglo-Saxons.

As we look forward to a massive slewing away from the dominance of European whites in America, what may we expect? What will these huge minority populations do? It is instructive to look at what they have done so far.

Some thirteen percent of the country is now black, and thirteen percent Latino: over a quarter in all. Blacks remain intractably far below the white population academically. An astounding proportion can’t read, and of those who can, few do. The gap hasn’t closed, despite Head Start, integrated schools, segregated schools, more funding, welfare, black teachers, black school boards, black mayors, remedial instruction, or anything else.

The gap appears on every known test of mental capacity or scholarly achievement—SATs, GREs, ACT, LSATs, MedCats, Stanford-Binet, Wechsler, Raven’s matrices. Nothing makes a difference. Everything has been tried. Because of this, we got affirmative action or, as kids once said, make believe.

Further, blacks are not assimilating. Despite pushing, shoving, laws, legislation, regulation, and relentless indoctrination, the races are not melding at a rate that will produce results any time soon. The huge black necrotic regions of the cities, that whites never see, are so big and isolated as to be impervious to outside influence. If you have not spent time in police cars in such places, you cannot imagine the hopelessness and hatred that brood there. If you think that “hatred” is too hard a word, go look. I have. Whether the hatred is justified doesn’t matter. It exists.

Yes, I will be called a racist for saying these things. I hope so. Today, “racist” means “one who says what everybody else knows.” It is a badge of intellectual honor. Nonetheless, it remains that if I could change any of these conditions, I would. I don't enjoy seeing people in lousy circumstance. I just don’t know what to do about it. Neither does anyone else.

Now, Latinos. Americans seem to think that the word denotes one kind of people, namely Mexicans, conceived as sitting torpidly under cactuses while wearing sombreros. Actually the variety of Latinos is great, from Argentines who amount to Europeans to Bolivians who are Indians. The Latinos coming into America are heavily Indian and uneducated. Mexican ophthalmologists do not swim the river. Mexicans who can make a decent living do not want to live in the United States. Thus the US gets the losers, the second-grade educations, people who on average have neither the intellect nor the urge to study. Yes, there are exceptions. But they are exceptions.

Everyone says, “But the Hispanics work hard.” They do indeed, in the first generation. Many people in fields such as construction have told me that the Latinos are the backbone of their operations, that blacks don’t want to work, have attitudes, show up if they feel like it and quit without warning. The Latinos work, now. Their children do terribly in school, however, drop out, and lose the desire to work. Then they join gangs.

Nice white people don’t know about gangs. Maybe they think of West Side Story. I used to ride in Chicago, with the PD and with the South Side Gang Initiative, a federally funded program in the rotting satellite cities, Markham, Robbins, and Fort Ord. I saw the gangs. There were the Black Gangster Disciples, the Vice Lords, the Latin Kings, the Latin Cobras, the P Stones, the El Ruykins who came out of the old Blackstone Rangers and, earlier, Blackstone Raiders. They aren’t the Jets, people. They’re killers. And they loathe white America.

I once interviewed a ranking Vice Lord in the Cook Country Jail. Why, I asked, did blacks kill each other so much? “They’d rather kill whites,” he answered, “but they know they’d lose.” There's a lot of that. When I left Washington four years ago, Mara Salvatrucha (look on the web) was appearing in Arlington, Virginia, and now their graffiti are show up in Springfield, Virginia.

Law enforcement in America relies on having a white population that is mostly law-abiding. It has no good way of responding to large numbers of violent criminals, especially when they are backed by politically potent voting blocs. The crucial question, or a crucial question, is what proportion of the new minorities will fall into the permanent underclass? How much permanent underclass can the nation stand?

Another crucial question is this: If half the children today are of minorities, then in no more than eighteen years half the kids of college age will be. Unless they show a sudden scholarly afflatus which has not heretofore been in evidence, this means that soon the US will have to compete with China with the brains of only half the nation. This is not to mention secondary effects, such as enstupidating all schools to hide the failures of the minorities. Do you suppose that the Chinese are doing that?

Now, from the same story in the Washington Post, this: “William H. Frey, a demographer with the Brookings Institution, predicted that the United States will have 'a multicultural population that will probably be more tolerant, accommodating to other races and more able to succeed in a global economy.'"

How heart-warming. I suggest that William H. Frey is a thoroughgoing fool, but this is common among academics.The whole touchy-feely multy-culty idea that forcing people together will make them love one another, kum bah yah, is simply wrong. Right now, there is a tremendous repressed hostility between blacks and whites, the lid being held on by federal power, tight control of the press, and rigorous political correctness. Whites, huge numbers of them, detest Latino immigrants and would love to expel them from the country. Serious friction grows between blacks and Latinos as Latinos push blacks out of regions they once controlled. We’re not moving toward accommodation. We’re moving toward trouble.

What will happen as the economy declines and the minorities continue growing in number? As they continue demanding through political power what they cannot obtain on their merits? As standards of living drop, and the pie isn’t creamy enough to give everyone juicy freebies?

Lets see if illegals are so great for our economy and they keep the cost of living down and pay so many taxes instead of costing more than what they are worth then tell us this. Why is it that in California....with 30% of the illegals residing there....everything so expensive and the cost of living so much higher? Why is the California state government on the brink of bankrupcy? Why aren't goods and services less expensive. Why does a Big Mac value meal at Mc Donalds cost 30% more at a Mc Donald's in San Diego than it does in Kansas City. The SAME Big Mac value meal but it cost more in San Diego...... but all that cheap, hardworking labor cost me much more for the same product in California than it does in Missouri and most of the rest of United States. 30% of the illegal immigrants in the United States have cost State of California more in taxes and a higher cost of living than it has benefited the average law abiding American Citizen residing in California. You can spin it all you want to.....but that is the simple truth of the matter!

So Tight Fit, how do you suggest we test your theory about blacks? Maybe we should go down to Mexico, catch us a bunch of Mexicans, make them our slaves for a few hundred years, then free them but provide them virtually nothing for another hundred years and then see how long it takes for the enslaved Mexicans to rebuild a functional culture and perform on par and assimilate with all those well-adjusted white Europeans, trailer trash included?

(Message edited by LAguy on October 09, 2006)

Beachman,

The issue with California is that it is generally overpopulated in the coastal urban areas. Too many people and not enough land equals very high housing and building prices. This spills over into everything else - that's the root of California's higher costs. Have you spent much time in California? Did you notice that San Diego and the Bay area are basically a series of narrow valleys amongst the hills with a small costal shelf area? Not a lot of space at all. LA is huge but IMHO, the issue with LA is not enough density where it counts. Lots of small bungelows and apartments on small parcels of land, with no real urban core. Just sprawl everywhere you go.

As far as TightFit's post, my views are that a lot of blacks have lost any desire to get ahead. Maybe it's because they view themselves as powerless, as unable to get ahead. Maybe they're just lazy. But, the truth is there is a permenant underclass in the US, and illegal aliens have the capacity to create a second. His comments on the makeup of most illegals - the poorest and least educated - is correct in many ways, then again historically, it's usually some of the poorest and least educated who do the moving. The Irish and Italians and Eastern Europeans during the last big wave of immigration weren't exactly doctors and lawyers either. However, to drop a half-million functional illiterates per year into the US, when we already have plenty of those, both white and black, who don't seem to want to work, who think of themselves as too good to flip a burger or dig a ditch, is troublesome.

I cringe whenever I hear someone say "that's a job an American won't do". That's pure bullshit. If you have no work and no money, you should be flipping burgers or anything you can physically do to make money. That rational should be encouraged. Paying welfare is bullshit, if you receive state benefits of that sort you should have to work - welfare and WIC and other "benefits" should be subsidies for the working poor. Yeah, making six bucks an hour doesn't pay the bill, but work those six bucks an hour and state welfare programs might kick in a bit in the way of subsidized child daycare, transit vouchers, etc. Of course, part of the reason those jobs are six bucks an hour is because of the constant stream of no-income workers entering the system and keeping wages down. This is a simple economic model, supply and demand. As noted earlier in this thread, I'm more than willing to pay more for my value meal if the kid behind the counter gets to make a buck or two more per hour and gets some health insurance out of it. Is everyone else though?

Cat, you hit it right on.

Tightfit, I have to hand it to you, people dont speak so bluntly anymore. At least you call it like you see it. I agreed with more of your post than I would like to admit in public.

My opinion is latinos are the hardest working (physically) of all the minorities. They also have an incredible sense of family (I think a lot of us have seen that), and a ton of pride. Think about it, have you ever seen a hispanic male on the median asking for money. I havent, they have too much pride. They get out and fucking work. I do agree the illegal’s that come over are not the cream of the crop of the mexican people as it relates to education, but they try hard to make up for it. We all didnt have the oportunity to go to Yale. Something does happen with SOME second generation being lazy, but then again do your kids work as hard as you did?

All of that said, I strongly believe we need to strongly enforce our current laws and inact new laws to protect our borders. This is getting ridiculous. We need legal immigration and we need to protect ALL of our borders, as in our northern borders. New citizens should speak english and all gov business should be in english. That said, latinos are a valuable asset to the USA.

I have to say I was surprised at how the hispanic community handled the protests over the immigration bill. They have always been under represented in the media and politically. I have just been waiting for them as a people to show their power which should be huge. PR wise, I think they blew it.

PS the argument that someone made above about this being Mexican land and the fact we should give it back, at least that would solve the overcrowding in California. The entire coastline would look like Baja.

AZGuy, latinos are not the hardest working immigrant group, Asians are, which brings up another point of discussion: why do white people like Asian immigrants so much?

Well, let's see - your average Korean or Chinese immigrant usually arrives and their first thoughts are to make money. Same as Latinos. However, the Asian immigrants are a tad bit smarter and their idea of making money is making a business. Latinos don't, they have a peasant worldview and in their view peasants don't own land or businesses. So, while your average Mexican guy goes and cuts grass and mops floors - hard grunt work - the Chinese guy goes and works 15 hours a day in a restaurant or dry cleaner or something. A year later the Latino is still cutting grass and maybe thinking about something better. The Chinese or Korean or Indian guy isn't much better off but his plan is already taking off - work his ass off 7 days a week and start moving up that ladder. You go from sweeping floors in a dry cleaner to pressing shirts to manning the front counter to, a few years later, owning the dry cleaner. What do you do after you've bought a dry cleaner or Dunkin Donuts or 7-Eleven? You leverage it to buy another. So on and so forth.

Koreans have an awesome system - they keep a lot of their wealth in a communal lending pool. One business owner needs a new machine or an expansion? He gets the loan that quarter. The next quarter, he kicks back into the pool so someone can buy a nail salon or something. The idea is you constantly build wealth.

Whites love this because this is how a lot of our grandparents and older generations got the ball rolling. We like to see that - the hard work pays off and then it's a perpetual motion machine. It's how most of us who made our own money did it - a little bit at a time. The only thing that makes wealth is wealth, so get a little and make it grow for you.

Funny thing is, the Korean 1.0s and some of the 1.5s - the ones who grew up in Korea and moved here as adults and the ones who maybe moved here late in school - work their asses off. The 2.0s - the ones born here - grow up American and a lot of them are lazy fucks. Same as Latinos, although the Latinos are still working by the hour for someone else while the Asians own the businesses and hire the Latinos. Either way, the second generation grows up without the same heavy work ethic. Why?

My opinion - they see how hard their parents worked and all the sacrafices they made, and decide to never work in those same sweaty and hard and sometimes menial jobs. BECAUSE THATS A JOB AN AMERICAN WON'T DO!! They're Americans, not poor non-English speaking immigrants, right? They don't have to work 16 hours a day 7 days a week. Americans don't have to do that, right?

The big difference here is the Korean and Chinese kids ride around in the BMWs their parents went out and bought them while the Latino kids driving around in the shitbox little cars their parents helped them buy. End result, though, is the second generation never works as hard as the first.

As the members can clearly see from previous posts, certain members here are racists towards African Americans. Tight fits and Cataconys comments are so ignorant and full of hatred that it amazes me they are able to function in the real world.
Here is a quote from tight fit, "Blacks remain intractably far below the white population academically. An astounding proportion can’t read, and of those who can, few do. The gap appears on every known test of mental capacity or scholarly achievement—SATs, GREs, ACT, LSATs, MedCats, Stanford-Binet, Wechsler, Raven’s matrices. Nothing makes a difference. Everything has been tried. Because of this, we got affirmative action or, as kids once said, make believe."
Well Tight Fit here are some facts that you can't lie about. My brother is African American and also a General Surgeon who has a private practice in NYC. He was valedictorian at his High School, missed a perfect score on his SATS by 2 questions, entered Sophie Davis School of Biomedical Education and graduated at the top of his class from NYU Medical School. He was the top student in his class at every level of higher education. If you listen to racists like Tight Fit you might actually believe that whites are the superior race intellectually. The facts are there are more poor white Americans in this country then any other race and it doesn't mean they are "inferior" in any way shape or form. We are all Americans, some of us have had a better opportunity to succeed then others but NO ONE RACE is superior.
As far as Catacony comments, "my views are that a lot of blacks have lost any desire to get ahead. Maybe it's because they view themselves as powerless, as unable to get ahead. Maybe they're just lazy. But, the truth is there is a permenant underclass".
Maybe blacks are just lazy? I call people who are 5'5" and weigh 350lbs lazy because they have no desire to take care of themselves physically. The best part of this whole conversation is that neither of these individuals has the integrity or the gutts to let there views be known to any person of color in person.
TRW

Catacony-

I agree totally with you that that it is Bullshit when someone says "that is a job an American won't do." As I posted previously our country and our youth have been brainwash that those are menial jobs and they are too good to do those jobs and would rather go into massive debt than have their children when they become 16 to do "those jobs."
It is a three- headed problem...... the illegals coming across the border, the employers that hire them and our Federal government, all three branches looking the other way and not looking out for American Citizens.
But the problem is in our society itself.
We are a society that feels we are entitled to the luxuries in life and the time to enjoy them and have taught our youth no character..... in working your way up in the World. Kids feel that they are entitled to the same things that took their parents 30 years to obtain and their parents and our society reinforces their feeling by allowing them to have it all on credit and not to work for it and pay as they go.
Kids don't work today....they don't have time....look at the studies showing how much time they spend on the internet, playing video games and watching TV. America has taught our youth to be Fat and Lazy......and their parents don't do much about it because it is more important for them to be their friend than to be their parents! And it is much easier to buy freindship than it is to teach your kid to have disipline and have character! And how embarrased would the parents be in their social circle if it was known their kid was flipping burgers at Mc Donald's.]

Cat, I said hardest working physically. I wasnt talking about brains or work philosophy. You are right, asians have both. I would not agree with whites liking asians more than other minorities. I think it has a lot to do with who you grew up with and what you feel comfortable with. I grew up in an area that was mostly hispanics, so that is what I am comfortable with.

TRW brings up a point that no race is superior. So is it racist to say that certain groups are better at some things than others? and some are worse, or is that offensive? There are some that dont fit the typical, but it would be incorrect if you said all races were the same. They are not. I am a white gentile. My observations are that jews as a group, not all, but mostly are simply better in business. same with indians. It is just a fact. Blacks as a whole seem to not be able to get the chip off their shoulder long enough to focus on being productive. Asians are learners. Here is a perfect example, we owned a 30 unit apartment property by the university. It was 90% asian. Never a problem, they went to school, came home and studied, went to sleep and then they did it all over again the next day. Very quiet. No problems. In fact, they would bring someone in to rent the unit when they left. They liked to stay together. The property was sold, the new owners started renting to white kids, the asians slowly started to leave. Then the drugs and parties started. Now the asians are all gone and the complex is a fucking disaster. So what is my point, Im not sure, I just wanted to tell that story. No, really, TRW, just because someone makes an observation from their perspective, doesnt make them a racist. In fact that shit is getting old. Say something someone doesnt like and you could be branded homophobic, racist, etc. They are just calling them they way they see it. I think a lot of this comes down to personal responsibility, which seems to be disappearing.

BTW, TRW, I know you are not the spokesperson for the entire black race, but why cant they just be black americans and not african americans? Just curious.

Azguy,
I am a Black American and proud of it. You cannot justify stereotyping certain races. I know many Black Americans all of whom are intelligent hard working people. Tight Fits and Cataconys comments which stated Blacks are inferior academically and somehow we are inherently lazy are not only ignorant but quite offensive. Are Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice intellectualy inferior human beings? Are they lazy? Do they have a chip on their shoulder? Maybe your perceived chip is brought on by insulting remarks and ideals by other Americans. We know this is how "SOME" ignorant white Americans view our race and the ignorance is passed on from generation to generation. I have no problem calling anybody a racist to their face when I feel it is warranted. You didn't have a petition to keep you off of "their block" while growing up did you? You weren't called "nigger" from age 3 until you were big enough that they wouldn't dare call you "nigger" again were you? I know all about racists and racism, I was a victim of it and I can spot them a mile away. My mother was told to become a maid instead of going to college by her High School advisor. She graduated "Suma Cum Laude" from IUP with a MSW. She earned a six figure income which was unheard of for an African American women at that time, yet we weren't good enough to live on "their block". She received awards from President Clinton and Rudolph Guiliani for creating a summer therapeutic program which helps thousands of underpriviliged children to this day. We had a neighbor ring our bell when my mother was 7 months pregnant with me and state, "We don't want 20 people living in this house doing drugs". You think by calling Blacks lazy and inferior that makes you superior? That makes you ignorant and inferior. I have no chip, I let you have a brief glimpse of what its like to be Black in America and still succeed when they didn't want you to.
AZ, this statement is offensive, "Blacks as a whole seem to not be able to get the chip off their shoulder long enough to focus on being productive." I don't know if you realize this so I'm telling you so you don't make the same mistake in the future. Maybe you have encountered Black Americans who you didn't like, guess what? I've encountered many White Americans who I didn't like also, it doesn't mean they are lazy or inferior or have a chip on their shoulder it means they are not people who I would like to associate with or call my friends it has NOTHING to do with their race.
I hope you have a better understanding on how to address certain issues when it comes being Black, White, Asian, Hispanic or otherwise. We are all human beings created in God's image, we are all equal and should treat each other with respect.
TRW

The danger of Tightfits analysis is the way that actual racists will use the statistical facts to advance their agenda. Any rational analysis of "racial groups" will show that "racial" is meaningless thing. Cultural context is really what is at play. And changing culture is HARD. Cats observations about second generation immigrants are very interesting. Something there should show the mechanisms that foster culture change.

Stereotypes are needed when dealing with the complexity of real life but you should never hold an individual prisoner to a stereotype.

I have a (very) few ideas on how we could make better the areas where ignorance and hatred rule, but they won't fly with the dominate cultural and political structures we have.

What about all those god-damned Canadians that come into the country and take up the high-paying jobs like news anchorman and acting?

Smitopher,
I also have some ideas that could solve the current cultural problem that exists in America. I am in favor of a universal curriculum for all students from grades 1 - 12. All students should have healthcare and uniforms provided by there schools so there are no feelings of shame for those who can't afford certain clothes or shoes. They may choose to enter a parochial or public school depending on their religious beliefs . Students should then be given a choice of either entering a University or joining the Military for 4 years upon receiving there High School diplomas. Those who choose higher education will not have to join the Military. After that these individuals will have all the tools they need to lead healthy productive lives.

Wow! Things have really improved here at CH! Here we are talking about a tough subject, racism, in a calm intelligent manner.

I was watching an NFL football game with a Brazilian woman and she asked "Why are so many of the players black?" I said, "They are athletically superior." My point is that there are stereotypes of all types, good and bad, but we should not create judgements and expectations on an individual based on a stereotype of a group. Individuals should always be treated as individuals.

This goes for governments as well. It is inherently flawed for the government to single out any race and treat them differently in any way.

The sad reality is that racism exists in the US. I am not talking about people on this board, but the rednecks, skinheads, and nazis. I'm a minority, and I agree with TRW. You have to be a minority to know what it is like to be the target of such irrational hate. Like TRW said, we can spot them a mile away.

Since I grew up, I feel that things have improved in the US. But we probably have at least another 50 years if we can maintain our current course and direction. I think that racial profiling is wrong. It is a step in the wrong direction, and I really don't care whether statistics show that blacks are more likely to do drugs, or islamics are more likely to hijack planes, the government cannot condone racism, even in the name of national security.

To circle back around, I have not bothered to ask, but if you did, I would think that that a skinhead would want all the illegal aliens shipped out of the country. Not because of economic issues, or security issues, but because of hate and racial superiority. Personally, I don't think that their opinion should matter.

One thing you guys have to remember is that all Asian immigrants are not the same and not all are productive. Large portion of the Southeast Asian immigrants are repeatedly on welfare and have horrible gang problems. Comparing a Korean to a Cambodian is like comparing a papaya and a durian.

TightFit -

Wow, you are one negative bastard. Do you realize that almost all immigrants that have come to the US have been "undereducated?" The White European immigrants that came here 75-150 years ago for the most part had been the "underclass" in their native countries. That's why they left! And for the most part, the "upper class" people in those European countries were glad to have them leave. It's no different for the immigrants coming to the U.S. now. They want a better life than they had in their home country and by striving for that better life they will make the U.S. a better country.

The case of African-Americans is different as they were brought here against their will. However, ponder this: Most of the Africans who were sold as slaves were the "underclass" in their native lands. That's why their African "brothers" sold them to the Europeans. The high-ranking members of the West African societies were not sold into slavery. In fact, many were happy to get get rid of their underclass by selling them. Now in the 21st Century, descendants of those slaves are in general living better than their counterparts in Africa.

Past is not prologue. Human beings are capable of incredible things - even those from the "underclass." Consider that George and Ira Gershwin's father was a penniless immigrant who had never demonstrated musical talent. Did that stop his children from contributing to their new country? (Maybe I'm dating myself with that one).

You need to get out more! We're aren't doomed. Black, White, Latin, and Asian people are interacting and getting along quite well. The demographic make-up of the country has and is constantly changing, but the human spirit will always be there.

TRW, I am not trying to be a smart ass here, so dont take it that way, but if the word nigger is so bad why do black folks call each other nigger? I realize not all do, but some do. I would think if anyone would want that word gone from the english language it would be the black community. Also, you didnt respond to why cant blacks in amercia just be americans? If we want to be color blind shouldnt we start moving in that direction? and you are right I didnt grow up black so I cant be in your shoes. I have no idea.

You said: "You think by calling blacks lazy and inferior that makes you superior? That makes you ignorant and inferior."
I didnt say that. I said that I thought many blacks have a chip on their shoulder. I may have also said there was a lack of personal responsibility and I stand by what I said, but I also believe blacks dont have an exclusive on that either.

And as far as white folks, we could fill a book on that shit. I just didnt want to get into it.

Back to the main point, is it racist to say in general this group tends to be this way and that group that way? I dont want to speak for Cat, but I think that was what he was saying. (correct me Cat if that is not right) Let me put it this way, is it not a fact that white folks (in general) have a rhythm problem? If you dont think so, watch em try to salsa. Its a sad thing to see.

Man, I am spending way too much time on this board talking politics and the negative energy is dragging me down. I am off of here and back to reading and talking about the one thing we all have in common, pussy. from A to Z, black, white, tall, short, thin (ok, maybe not fat), I could go on, but you get the point. OK, I am out of here. Have fun everyone.

Elgrancombo-

You are right...you are right the African "brothers" sold their brothers into slavery and profitted from it. There is more slavery and slave trading going on in Africa now then there ever was in America and when have heard the "AFRICAN Americans" doing much of anything to help their brothers. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Etc are all just profitting from being racialand could care less about their African heritage!
Who can tell me why black comedians and black people use the word nigger all they want to and black people find it funny.....but as soon as a white person uses the word nigger it is a HATE CRIME and they want to prosecute.

Times have changed and there were problems in the past and still some today....but there have been dramatic changes that allow black people the same rights and opportunities as white people have. It is more the mentality of black people holding back black people today ...than it is white people holding back black people today.
Today, many Black people and their so called leaders today are as much of the problem as white people. They want to focus more on the misjustice of the past instead of take advantage of the great opportunties available now. The Black people who do.... succeed as do Whites, Hispanics, Asians, etc.
Over History almost every ethinic group has been enslaved by another. The Roman Empire enslaved most of Europe. Spain enslave most of South and Central America. Japan enslave most of the Far East and again slavery is still wide spread in Africa today.

Therightway-

Blacks are racist too. When I was young I grew up next to the projects and I was call everything you can think of by blacks and threatened or beat up on occasions just because my skin was white and I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some were taught to hate white people purely because their skin was white.
I too know about racists and racism.

Beachman,
That really wasn't the jist of my post. My point was that the underclass of today (which most immigrants have been)is NOT destined to be the underclass of the future. TightFit was irrationally negative about the ability of people to improve their situation.

Elgran,

One thing to remember - a hundred years ago, it was much, much easier for a functionally illiterate kid to get a job in a factory without having an ounce of skill and 30 years later, have something to show for it. Steady employment, constant pay raises, medical plans, etc. That's going away pretty fast these days, so the uneducated have very few options for getting ahead. Functional illiterates in Southeast Asia can still get ahead (that which it is) but there isn't a lot of gruntwork left in the US that leads to anything other than gruntwork, unless the person doing the work is using it as a vehicle to a better job.

Earlier immigrants probably weren't much smarter when they landed than illegals today, but they had a chance to make coin and move up the ladder. That largely isn't around today unless the uneducated become educated.

I find TheWrongWay exceedingly funny these days. Prior to getting his ass booted off temporarily by Hombre, this guy stuck his nose into any argument he could find - or make - and you never heard his poor little heart breaking at all. Now, all of a sudden, he's just full of rightous indignation when he reads our discussions. I find that quite funny.

Most Black Americans don't call each other niggers, sometimes the younger generation refer to each other as "my nigga" or "that's my nigga" meaning my brother. I have lived on this earth for quite a while, seen many things, some good some bad, in all of my years I have NEVER heard of one instance when a White person used the word "NIGGER" and it meant my brother have you? Now let me ask Beachman something, Who are you to tell black people who should be their leaders? You the great white man knows what's best for us right Beachman? We can't think for ourselves so if you say our so called "leaders" are bad then it's Gospel right Beachman? Did it ever cross your mind that the reason why so many Black Americans like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson etc is because people like you hate them so much? think about it.
Az, let me answer your questions now. My parents raised me to identify myself as a Black American. Africa is where many of our ancestors were born so what's wrong with people referring to themselves as African Americans?. Italians call themselves "Italian Americans" there ancestors are from Italy, people whose ancestors came from Ireland refer to themselves as "Irish Americans" other nationalities do it and you don't care but when we do it it bothers some people, go figure. Not so long ago there was no such thing as someone being "Bi racial" or "Mulatto" in this country do you know why? Because the White majority felt that if a person had a "DROP" of black blood in them, their bloodline was "tainted" and couldn't refer to themselves as being "half white", I didn't make this shit up it's part of our countries history, unbelievable isn't it. I won't get into how many white slave owners raped black women and bastardized the children, do you think those children went around saying they are Mulatto or Bi racial? So much of what you find troubling in the black community is a direct result of the brutal treatment that your own people inflicted on our culture. The best analogy I can use is that you shot us in the stomach and now you are mad because we bled all over your brand new carpet.
Indeed some Blacks are extremely racist, my Uncle was a perfect example but he was mistreated so much growing up that I can't blame him. My question is why are so many white people racist against Blacks? You brought us here, made us slaves, murdered , raped and brutalized our people so why are you mad at us? What did we EVER do to you besides breathe the same air?

Catacony,
You may find that funny but I can assure you that no member has ever had a negative thing to say about me after meeting me in person. Can you say the same thing about yourself? Here is a post from a respected member found in Smirkers Trip report/ Medellin:

"Speaking of assholes, aren't opinions like assholes? Everyone has one, and everyone elses' usually stinks? In Cats case, having had the pleasure of meeting Cat, I can honestly tell you that I will NEVER spend time with Cat again. His 'social graces' left me and my guests in a most akward situation as a result of our first and only meeting. But that's only my opinion.

There are some class folks on this board who I have enjoyed meeting and spending time with. Then there are those who after you meet make you want to go home and shower with Ajax & a brillo pad."

Like I said in an earlier post, I can spot them a mile away!

So I guess it is out of the question that I call you my nigga, even if I mean it in a loving way? (and yes there is some black way back in my family tree, much to the chagrin of my relatives in Alabama). Hey, just trying to lighten things up a little here.

ok, now I will be serious. I was just asking you about the african american thing. I didnt think you were irish or italian or I would have asked you about that. I guess my point is, why cant we all just be americans? too general? I dont get it. Maybe I am being a little naive.

Again, I didnt grow up black so its hard to relate, but when will the past be the past? The only way to move freely to the future is without all of that baggage from the past. To answer your question, you havent done anything to me. actually, no black person has done anything to me that is worth bringing up (although there was the girl I spent my last weekend in Rio with that hurt me pretty bad). At the same time I have never murdered, raped or brutalized a black person, but TRW, you make it sound like every white person today has. Please explain.

I am going to say the same thing I have said on the other two threads that are similar. I am so done with this shit. It is negative and unproductive. I am going for positive energy. That can only mean one thing, pussy. could be white pussy, could be black pussy, could even be brown pussy. You all try and lighten up and have a little fun. I'm out.

AZ,
I agree with you 100%, but when people like Tight Fit and Catacony make those kind of statements all of the feelings of the past come to the surface, can you understand that? When a person says black people are lazy or less intelligent that's like saying my mother, my father, my brother are those things and I can't let that go.
I am just wondering, when you are fucking black pussy, do you ask her if she calls herself African American or Black American? LOL.

TheWrongWay,

The second person to use IrishRover's rant on me in a posting in the same week. I feel honored.

"I am just wondering, when you are fucking black pussy, do you ask her if she calls herself African American or Black American? LOL"


I call it black pussy, I certainly do not call it american pussy.

AZ,

I'll try to answer the question that you posed - "but when will the past be the past? "

My father came to the United States in the early 1940's. Characterization of Asians in that time was very different than it is today. By the time I was born, my father had developed a deep seated hatred toward white people. He wore this hatred as a chip on his shoulder, daring other white people to knock it off. Just writing about it, brings back tons of memories of how this disrupted our family life. My father still to this day believes that white people do not respect him because of the color of his skin.

I remember as a child vowing to myself that I would not fall victim to this hatred. I vowed that I only would hate, when a particular person did something hateful to me. Still to this day, I only hate people I have known personally. Although one of my brother adopted the same philosophy, sadly, my youngest brother has the absolute same chip on his shoulder as my father.

So there's your answer, somehow racism is passed from one generation to another. Moreover, racism is irrational. Believe me, I have tried to discuss this rationally with my father, and it just turns into a yelling match.

TRW said it best. We can spot them a mile away. I have learned the best way is just to avoid racists, and more importantly I refuse to become a racist as well.

At this point in my life, I loathe stereotypes. Every stereotype that people put on me, I try to prove them wrong. Moreover, I don't put stereotypes on anyone. This entire issue became an obssession with me. People will laugh, but still to this day, I refuse to wear a camera around my neck. I usually keep it in my pocket. It scratches the lens more, and I have to buy more cameras, but in my warped mind, it is worth it.

" I refuse to wear a camera around my neck. I usually keep it in my pocket"

Blues, I live in a very multicultural region and family, so I really cannot relate personally. However, camera straps should be worn over the shoulder, NOT the neck

Therightway-

you still haven't answered why black comedians, Eddie Murphy, Chris Rock, etc can use the word nigger adn make money and proffit from it and black people find it funny......but if a white person uses to N word....Black leaders want them to be prosecuted for a hate crime.
As for myself despite that I was taunted and beat up in my youth by blacks....soley because my skin was white......I had great parents who taught to judge people their individual character.....not their race, ethinic group or social ranking. In fact during JR. High and High School I had and still are freinds with many blacks and Samoans(many Samoans move to where I grew up). I was the campaign manager for one of my black freinds who won and was Class President of our senior class and he and his family come down and stay with me in Florida every year for a week.
I despise racism and prejudice..... but if we are truthful we all feel it at times and feel it equally and differently for different races, ethinic groups, social groups etc. Skinheads, Gang members of all races, wealthy snobs, etc and segments of all races and ethinic groups who behave in a way that they feel because of their race or ethinic group they can justify their behavior as that they are entitled to behave that way.
As and was exposed to racism....particularly toward blacks....I would find myself in situations where white peeople....especially when ou are doing somethime with the guys.... the racial jokes would come in to play. I had great way of deflating their enthusiasim when they told their Black (nigger jokes)jokes. After they would finish and everyone was laughing I would say I did not find it was funny because my father who adopted me when I was young was black. Everything would get real quiet and the aplogies would start and I would refuse to accept them. I'd tell them you are apologizing to wrong person....and you better grow up and become more mature.
So, Therightway stop justifying that black people are entitled to do the very same things to their own people today that you point out with history the white people did to the slaves. What about the blacks on blacks crimes today and how many blacks are raping black women and have bastardized the children. Why today do more black people kill and murder black people? Bill Cosby has spoken out that the prevalant black leaders (Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpon, etc) have done more to keep black society in the past....than to move towards the future because it is easier to keep in power and control an under or uneducated following.
You can spin and cry all you want to but the fact is today black American's are being more held back by their own predudice and that of their leadsers than the are by white society today. Is it totaly fair and always that way.....No....but is much different than even 30 years ago

Ok Beachman,
You win, go up to any black person you want and call them a "nigger", I personally guarantee that you won't be charged with a hate crime and if by some chance you are, I will pay for all of your legal fees.

Blues,
I can only imagine what your father had to go through in the 1940's just to feed his family. Our parents did an awesome job though , they raised sons who are able to fly around the world and fuck prostitutes from different countries,lol. I don't have a chip on my shoulder, that's a terma key and I dare somebody to knock it off.

What I find amazing and disturbing in this thread is the people who seem to have no hesitation is voicing and defending their racist stereotypes in a publicly viewed thread, forgetting about how potentially hurtful personally that can be to some of the readers here. I thought we as a society had generally moved beyond that type of mentality and the only remaining places where such comments were still tolerated or even encouraged were Ku Klux Klan and Republican precinct meetings.

Beach,

I don't think it makes sense, but for sure, I don't recommend that you call a black person a nigger. Maybe there is a logical argument, but this is far from a logical issue.

TRW,

My point about my father is that he still harbors these resentments today. Asians are no longer considered second class citizens even by the racists. He needs to let it go, or he now becomes part of the problem. He does not treat white people with proper respect.

The other way to look at it is that racism is a vicious circle. My father has become a wealthy and influential man that was treated very poorly by white people when he was younger. Now he believes that the tables are turned, he has earned the right to denigrate white people. If he continues, then there will be a whole new generation of whites that hate asians.

http://www.defendingtruth.org/content.asp?content_id=107

The exacting truth as told by bible thumpers....

The logic of the article..... is the truth! Why is it that it is politically correct to give more or less justice to a victim of a crime based on their race,gender or sexual orientation. The same advocates for this legislation...... that these laws will deter people from committing these crimes are the same ones who are deathly (no pun intended) againist the death penalty.

Murdering someone has the same results regardless of why it was done.....the victim is dead, dead, dead!!!!

TRW, well it has only been Brasilian black pussy and the only thing I was asking her was if she was going to let me live. ahhhh the memories....Damn, wish I was still posting here, I have so much wisdom to pass along, how will you guys ever get by?

Ok, I cant help myself, but I will limit my comments as it relates to pussy. This may be racist and TRW you can call me on it if it is. Am I right that white girls just dont fuck like black girls or is it just me? They have that extra little catch in the hip thing, rhythm, I dont know, what ever it is, it works. Ok, so maybe I shouldn’t generalize, that’s stereotyping. How is this, only the black girls I have fucked have taken sex to a whole new level. Maybe the rest are terrible. How was that TRW?

Hey Beachman,
You weren't beat up because you were white; you were beat up because you were stupid. And it looks like you haven't grown out of that problem.

California congressman Duncan Hunter wants to deport American citizens. http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/apr/28/rep-hunter-deport-us-born-children-illegal-aliens/ The views of the Tea party are starting to get radical. I guess they think that they can pick and choose what parts of the constitution they want to follow.

Scary stuff!