GOL is the second largest airline in Brazil, and one of their flights went down near the Amazon about a week ago. Unfortunately, the flight was full, and strangely enough, it was bound for Rio. All 137 people in the plane died. The papers in Rio are full of information every day about the latest developments in the investigation.

The GOL plane was a 737, and it was hit by a small private American plane called a Legacy. Once in Brazil, the Legacy's flight plan was to change altitude two times on the way to Rio. The pilot's decided to change their flight plan, and not change altitude at all. They stated that they tried to contact air traffic control, but they were unable to get through. The black box on the Legacy plane contradicts the statements of the pilots.

Now the pilots have been here for a week in a hotel here in Rio answering questions, and they are getting tired of the scene here. They want to go home, and the Brazilian Federal Police will not release their passports. The international air board states that it has not yet been determined the cause of the worst aviation disaster in Brazilian history. Condalesa Rice has been notified that she should get involved to get the Americans released.

The people here in Rio are really mad. They feel that the Americans are being put up in a nice hotel and they should stay until all the questions are answered. Others feel that the pilots are avoiding the truth because they were at fault.

To be honest, I wish they would be more cooperative. This plane going down is a big deal here, and it seems to be insensitive to want to go home because at the very least they were involved.

Wow...so many lives effected and the pilots just want to walk away and go home.

I don't want to generalize too much here, but it seems this may turn out to be another case where one does not want to take responsibility for something. Next thing you know, they will try to pass to blame to someone else.

But then again, unfortunately, this type of behavior seems popular nowadays.

It's clear that being the center of attention in a terrible situation is very difficult. However, the pilots need to show more patience by being sensitive to the others effected and be there as long as it takes.

(Message edited by solid808 on October 07, 2006)

1st, anyone who is a pilot will tell you flat out that the pilots of the private jet were at fault....probably criminally so.

They were actually flying the legacy (a brazilian made plane) to America. Air corridors are set so that planes are at staggered alt. The legacy should have been at 36,000 ft...period. This is very basic and there is no acceptable excuse unless an emergency is declared.

Both the legacy and the 737-800 are brand new planes with state of the art avionics. They are equipped with transponders that report they're position and the capability to interogate other planes....so the planes would see each other. Even if the legacy had its transponder off (which by itself is criminal) they should still have been alerted to the 737...my understanding is that they turned the system off to mask there true altitude.

If this accident had happened in america the legacy pilots would already be under arrest.

Macmac: I'm asking the question out of ignorance, not because I have any doubt what you said is true: Why would they want to go to the trouble (e.g., turning the transponder off, etc.) to fly at 37,000 feet rather than 36,000? TIA for clarifying this for me and others.

Macmac,

The black box contradicts the pilots story of events. Indeed, the black box reports that the transponder was turned off, and there were numerous failed attempts from air traffic control to establish communication with the Legacy. The black box shows no attempts by the pilots to contact the control tower.

The pilots do not dispute that their original flight plan was to fly at 36000 feet, but their story is that they wanted to change it but could not contact air traffic control. Although their story is not supported by the black box, is the fact that they tried to contact the control tower enough to allow them to change their flight plan? I think that is a recipe for disaster (pun intended).

Stranger yet, all the other planes in the area were able to contact the control tower. The Legacy was the only one that was unable.

As an American, I still see some unanswered questions, and inconsistencies in the pilot's remarks. I believe that if Condeleeza Rice gets involved, she can get the pilots home, but I would much rather see them stay here and answer the questions of the Brazilian people about how their loved ones died.

I agree with Macmac and BT. From what I'm reading in O Globo it seems like the two US pilots were at fault.

Planes going North (Embrarer Legacy) fly at an even altitude e.g. 36k, 38k feet and those going South (Gol Boeing) at an odd altitiude e.g. 39k, 37k feet. My understanding is that the Legacy had a dispensation to fly at 37k until they got to Brasilia and then should have dropped down to 36k feet. For some reason they don't appear to have done so AND the transpsonder/Airborne Collision Avoidance System seem to have been switched off or become inoperable. As the latter appears improbable given the plane was new and the ACAS was checked both before and after the crash I suspect the pilots are in deep shit. The black boxes will hopefully reveal all. In the meantime the pilots should stay and face the music IMO and if guilty of negligence serve their time grateful for the fact that it didn't cost them their own lives.

LAguy:

Five possible explanations for why the American pilots would have been at level 37 instead of descending to 36, in descending order of likelihood:

1) Turbulence at 36,000 feet, they knew about it before hand (brazilian newspapers write that they were warned of it by Embraer - specifically that there was turbulence over Serra do Cachimbo, were the crash occurred). They wanted to spare their passengers a bumpy ride. Happens all the time (request change in flight level in order to avoid weather), but the correct protocol is that you only deviate from flight plan if given clearance by ATC. Not being able to contact them on radio is no excuse (except for case 4, see below). Besides which, if that was the case, they should have gone to 38. The rules for bi-directional flightways are the same world round... what they did was the equivalent of driving the wrong way down I95 at speed....

2) Within reason, the higher a plan flies, he less fuel it consumes (less air resistance 'cuz less air). In fact their flight plan had them going to level 38 about 15 minutes ahead of where the crash happened (the next VOR). Maybe they were climbing early and just crossing thru 37 (despite what the NY Times reporter wrote - that they were at 37 the whole time)? Who knows? And that they'd switch off the TCAS to go undetected?!? Still 1K altitude change doesn't seem worth the bother...

3) As I hinted above,their flight plan had them at 37 from São José dos Campos (Embraer headquarters) to Brasilia and then 36 for the first half of the BSB to Manaus airway, then 38. Maybe they just figured they could cruise along at 37, damn the flight plan and damn Brazilian ATC? They decided to not even bother to descend to 36? Seems highly unlikely for experienced pilots.

4) Icing, The only circumstance in which pilots in IFR can change altitude without authorization is if they are suffering from heavy, dangerous icing on the wings (or other, similar emergencies). Very unlikely as it was a clear day, icing usually occurs inside of heavy cloud.

5) Hot-dogging. A theory that is being kicked around is that they were "demonstrating" some maneuvers to their owners and turned off the transponder in what they thought would be an area outside of radar control. Methinks, the NY Times reporter abourd would have written about any aerobatics, but thenm again, I'm pretty naive. Still hot-dogging with bizjet WITH THE OWNERS aboard seems incredibly unlikely.

Anyway, bottom line is that the pilot's stories don't match the other facts. Some serious questions to be asked and answered before they get out of this jam...

BS

(Message edited by badseed on October 11, 2006)

(Message edited by badseed on October 11, 2006)

Badseed, thanks for expanding on my point and I agree the pilots' stories don't match the facts. Of all the explanations you've posted No. 5) seems the most likely to me precisely because they were WITH THE OWNERS.

Couple of questions for the board.

1) Why didnt Air traffic control warn the 737 that it was on a collision course with the Legacy. I am very naive, but isnt that what the traffic controllers are supposed to be doing? Monitoring flight patterns to make sure their arent any accidents.

2) Why didnt the 737's transponder pickup the Legacy? Even if the Legacy had their equipment turned off, didnt the 737 have radar or something that could tell them their was an object in their path?

Thumper:

1) Because ATC correctly assumed that the Legacy was following their flight plan - 36K feet. Again, from everything I've read, this was the equivalent of going the wrong way down an interstate highway, it was inconceivable. There were a couple of mid-air collisions with commercial jets in the 50's here in the States that led to the creation of transponders and the vertical separation system on airways (one crash right over the Grand Canyon!). The system was adopted world-wide. Result is no serious midairs since then until this one...

2) The transponders TRANSMIT only - identification, position, and height - they don't detect. And no, the 737 didn't have radar to pick up the Legacy. Commercial aircraft often have weather radar aboard, but nothing that can detect height (i.e not collision-avoidance radar). Most ground-based radar won't detect height either, hence the need for the transponders.... (how does the military do it - detect height - Doppler and/or phased array radars). Bottom line, if your transponder is off, no one can detect how high you are.

Ardngeas:

I dunno, it just seems unlikely that they'd be hot-dogging around over Amazon during a long-haul flight, why not back at S.J. dos Campos where they have designated airspace for testing? It goes against all procedures and common sense safety to be fucking around out there - if you have a failure while performing "maneuvers", where are you going to land, hot-shot? Besides, what the heck would they be demonstrating for the owners? Loops? hahaha. No,I still think the most likely explanation is that the pilots didn't want their VIP's to have a bumpy ride, so they added 1K to their flight level - just don't understand why they didn't add 2K, maybe they thought that flightways vertical separation didn't apply in Latin America? Who knows...

BS