http://www.yourdailymedia.com/media/1167323940/Best_Of_Bush_2006

Great stuff, thanks. It is so hard to believe that a total asshole such as Bush could have be given so many buttons. Defies the laws of physics. We are so fucked.

Elim

Its hard to believe that such an idiot as Bush is President of the United States. Jimmy Carter got in due to Watergate and a fluke; Clinton won in a very weak field; but Bush won simply because his backers raised $100 million or so before the Republican primaries began in 2000, and Gore was a crappy candidate (as was Kerry).

I don't think that schoolchildren in 2106 will be taught much about George W. Bush.

Explorer
As weak a candidate as Gore was I believe he still got several million more votes than Dubya. He just got em in the wrong states and had no cronies on the Supreme Court.

2106 will hopefully chronical why the antiquated Electoral College was put to rest.

Khun Mor: Gore got about 550,000 more votes than Dubya, maybe closer to 530,000. Bush got a few million more than Kerry, but if about 60,000 votes changed from Bush to Kerry in Ohio Kerry would be the President today.

I don't think that the future looks real good for Bush.

History will not be kind to him, we had every right to kick some serious ass in Afghanistan we did that, but then we turned it over to NATO and basicly walked away.

But when it comes to Iraq, we went to war for all the wrong reasons, and I fear that our children will be paying for this "global war" for decades to come.

RG

In 2106, Americans and people who love freedom are going to thank God (not Allah) that Bush was President from 2000-2008. In 2106, our children will not be able to read b/c of the fkd up teacher's union and dumb arse Administrators. So the history lesson will be irrelevant. Although history isn't taught in classrooms today, why would they teach it in 2106?

Clinton won b/c it was a three way race. Clinton never got a majority of the vote in either of his elections. 42% in '92 and 49% in '96.

PS - Saddam is being or has been hung. The people of Iraq no longer have to worry about their President/government dropping gas on them or lining them up and raping their wives and daughters. Yeah, Bush is a real fkn asshole.

peace, love and higher taxes in one month when Nancy takes charge.

Tica, the depth of your denial is breathtaking. I look forward to a restoration of the Constitution in a month.

The human race will only be around in 2106 if the U.S. elects leaders who have some semblance of intelligence, unlike Bush.

Yes, the Iraqi people don't have to worry about their government doing bad things to them because the don't have an effective government at this point. Instead, they have to worry about the dozens of different militias blowing them up, gassing them and raping the women. That's a lot better.

And the price of gas is double what it was before the War to Secure Oil. What's good for Haliburton and Exxon is good for all of us, right?

I completly and totally agree with Ticasonar he has hit it right on. The rest of you who are being told lies and are incredebly hatefull towards Bush "WAKE UP". I never hated Clinton I did very much disagreed with his politics but never had evilo thoughts towards him. But the hate you people have toward another human being makes me sick. It is behond my understanding why or how you can spread such death through that hole you call your mouth. "Hate the sin not the sinner"

---

quote:

It is behond my understanding why or how you can spread such death through that hole you call your mouth.

---

Gosh, Scooby. I just re-read all the posts here and could not find the word "hate" (other than in your post). It seems to me that folks are saying Bush is an incompetent fool and has done more harm than good in the foreign policy arena. Those statements can be debated, but they do not reflect "hate."

I also fall in the "W is a dangerous politician who oversimplifies everything and serves the interests of powerful corporate interests over those of the public" camp--but I don't hate him. I hate the fact that he's our president, but I don't hate the person.

But thank you for letting me know that I'm a simpleton fooled by the lies told by others about Bush.

As to Tica's comments, they can be ignored as the rantings of a Dittohead. "History is not taught in classrooms today." You bet, Tica. It's never taught in classrooms today, anywhere. You're absolutely 100% correct. And Nancy Pelosi can't raise taxes w/o Bush signing the bill. Somebody apparently failed civics in high school.

If one can't hate Bush, who can you hate? The guy has destroyed the U.S.'s standing in the world more than can be put into words, and has been attempting to turn the U.S. into a quasi fundamentalist Islamic republic ("quasi," because he substitutes the word "Christian" for "Islamic"). I for one am not going to falsely try to hold in my hatred for the man; I understand holding in one's emotions in this manner can cause cancer and worse! Getting cancer might arguably be as bad as having the guy as President.

Scooby's just afraid that the "Homeland Security Agents" will show back up on his doorstep.

The legions of Bush supporters are certainly melting away. I love the "interview" that Gerald Ford did in 2004 basically saying he wouldn't have invaded under the pretenses Bush did. Too bad that wasn't actually published in 2004. Britney Spears flashing her snatch isn't overly newsworthy but a former Republican President giving an articulated rational against starting an aggresive war might have actually done some good for the country.

What is important:



What people think is important:

http://www.tvshark.com/photos/?n=Britney+Spears+Down+Under
Admin: Photo replaced w/ URL

Some people give credit to Ford and Powell and others who are now coming out to oppose the war (in the case of Ford, posthumously). I, however, am resentful that on a matter as important as this, which should trump notions of loyalty and don't criticize members of ones party, they didn't have the balls to make their cases when it really mattered. If I remember correctly, Carl Levin articulated strongly the same theme with regard to Colin Powell to Woodward some time ago.

I suppose better late than never, but just barely.

(Message edited by LAguy on December 30, 2006)

Do you guys think we are making it to 2106???????? What a fucking dream that would be..........Hey Scoobie......wake the fuck up man yourself! Bush is a stooge of the Multinational cabal that owns your balls through out of control taxes and inflation. All else you hear is just a smoke screan.

Elim

3,000 US citizens dead 9-11-01

650,000 Iraqies to date dead (equally averaged for dead women and children)

Some of the latest polls show Bush hatred is now commonplace......some up to 45%, most average around 40%.

http://www.thinkandask.com/news/911polls.html

http://www.zogby.com/search/ReadNews.dbm?ID=855

Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks and “Consciously Failed” To Act; 66% Call For New Probe of Unanswered Questions by Congress or New York’s Attorney General, New Zogby International Poll Reveals


On the eve of a Republican National Convention invoking 9/11 symbols, sound bytes and imagery, half (49.3%) of New York City residents and 41% of New York citizens overall say that some of our leaders "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act," according to the poll conducted by Zogby International. The poll of New York residents was conducted from Tuesday August 24 through Thursday August 26, 2004. Overall results have a margin of sampling error of +/-3.5

Uhm... I hate GW as much as the next guy but...

---

quote:

that some of our leaders "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act,"

---

Just a little tid bit incase all you leftists forgot why we went to Iraq in the first place!!!

"Oppressive government policies have led to the internal displacement of 900,000 Iraqis, primarily Kurds who have fled to the north to escape Saddam Hussein's Arabization campaigns (which involve forcing Kurds to renounce their Kurdish identity or lose their property) and Marsh Arabs, who fled the government's campaign to dry up the southern marshes for agricultural use. More than 200,000 Iraqis continue to live as refugees in Iran."

In 2002, the U.S. Committee for Refugees estimated that nearly 100,000 Kurds, Assyrians, and Turkomans had previously been expelled, by the regime, from the "central-government-controlled Kirkuk and surrounding districts in the oil-rich region bordering the Kurdish controlled north."

"Over the past five years, 400,000 Iraqi children under the age of five died of malnutrition and disease, preventively, but died because of the nature of the regime under which they are living." (Prime Minister Tony Blair, March 27, 2003) Under the oil-for-food program, the international community sought to make available to the Iraqi people adequate supplies of food and medicine, but the regime blocked sufficient access for international workers to ensure proper distribution of these supplies. Since the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom, coalition forces have discovered military warehouses filled with food supplies meant for the Iraqi people that had been diverted by Iraqi military forces.



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,239897,00.html

Chronicle of the atrocities committed by Saddam Hussein:

Hussein's regime killed, tortured, raped and terrorized the Iraqi people and its neighbors for over two decades.

Hundreds of thousands of people died as a result of Saddam's actions.

2001: Amnesty International report: "Victims of torture in Iraq are subjected to a wide range of forms of torture, including the gouging out of eyes, severe beatings and electric shocks... some victims have died as a result and many have been left with permanent physical and psychological damage."

Human Rights Watch: Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurds.

Refugees International: "Oppressive government policies have led to the internal displacement of 900,000 Iraqis."

Iraq's 13 million Shiite Muslims, the majority of Iraq's population of approximately 22 million, faced severe restrictions on their religious practice.

FBI: Iraqi government was involved in a plot to assassinate former President George Bush during his April 14-16, 1993, visit to Kuwait.

The Iraqi regime has repeatedly refused visits by human rights monitors.

From 1992 until 2002, Saddam prevented the U.N. Special Rapporteur from visiting Iraq.

Saddam had approximately 40 of his own relatives murdered.

1980-88: Iran-Iraq war left 150,000 to 340,000 Iraqis and 450,000 to 730,000 Iranians dead.

1983-1988: Documented chemical attacks by Iraqi regime caused some 30,000 Iraqi and Iranian deaths.

1988: Chemical attack on Kurdish village of Halabja killed approximately 5,000 people.

1987-1988: Iraqi regime used chemical agents in attacks against at least 40 Kurdish villages.

1990-91: 1,000 Kuwaitis were killed in Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.

1991: Bloody suppression of Kurdish and Shi'a uprisings in northern and southern Iraq killed at least 30,000 to 60,000. At least 2,000 Kurdish villages were destroyed during the campaign of terror.
War Crimes
Summary
Saddam Hussein and his closest aides have committed a long list of criminal violations of international humanitarian law and the laws and customs of war. Saddam Hussein and his closest aides should be investigated, indicted, and prosecuted for these crimes.

The goal of the United States is to see Saddam indicted by an international tribunal. We are gathering our own evidence against Saddam and providing support to groups working on Iraqi war crimes issues.

http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/2000/02/iraq99.htm
War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity

Saddam Hussein seized power in 1979. The list of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by Saddam Hussein and his regime is a long one. It includes:

• The use of poison gas and other war crimes against Iran and the Iranian people during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war. Iraq summarily executed thousands of Iranian prisoners of war as a matter of policy.

• The "Anfal" campaign in the late 1980's against the Iraqi Kurds, including the use of poison gas on cities. In one of the worst single mass killings in recent history, Iraq dropped chemical weapons on Halabja in 1988, in which as many as 5,000 people -- mostly civilians -- were killed.

• Crimes against humanity and war crimes arising out of Iraq's 1990-91 invasion and occupation of Kuwait.

• Crimes against humanity and possibly genocide against Iraqi Kurds in northern Iraq. This includes the destruction of over 3,000 villages. The Iraqi government's campaign of forced deportations of Kurdish and Turkomen families to southern Iraq has created approximately 900,000 internally displaced citizens throughout the country.

• Crimes against humanity and possibly genocide against Marsh Arabs and Shi'a Arabs in southern Iraq. Entire populations of villages have been forcibly expelled. Government forces have burned their houses and fields, demolished houses with bulldozers, and undertaken a deliberate campaign to drain and poison the marshes. Thousands of civilians have been summarily executed.

• Possible crimes against humanity for killings, ostensibly against political opponents, within Iraq.

Holding Saddam Accountable

The United States wants to see Saddam and his close aides investigated, indicted, and if possible, prosecuted by an international tribunal. The Yugoslav war crimes tribunal's May 1999 indictment of Slobodan Milosevic for crimes against the Muslim Kosovar Albanian people shows that when crimes are committed on the scale that Saddam Hussein has committed them, justice should be done not just in the name of the victims, but in the name of all humanity.

The United States is helping international efforts to gather evidence.

• The U.S. Government helped human rights and opposition groups collect 5.5 million pages of captured Iraqi documents from the "Anfal" campaign against the Iraqi Kurds in the 1980's. These documents show the routine nature of the atrocities and abuses committed by Saddam Hussein's regime against the Iraqi people. These documents are being catalogued, indexed, and electronically transcribed for use by investigators and prosecutors.

• Tens of thousands of pages of Iraqi documents captured during Operation Desert Storm in 1991 are also now being indexed and computerized. The originals themselves will be returned to Kuwait and computerized copies will be made available to human rights groups, scholars, investigators and prosecutors.

• The U.S. has large amounts of information on Iraq's campaign to destroy the Southern Marshes and repression of the people of southern Iraq.

• We are preserving videotapes of Iraqi war crimes that can be used for eventual prosecution of Iraqi war crimes. The United States also has classified documents, some of which can be declassified and shared with an international tribunal or commission.

Saddam Hussein's Iraq is a brutal police state and so the collection of evidence of the crimes of the regime is difficult to obtain. Opposition groups work with great courage to bring this news to the world. We are working with Iraqi opposition and human rights groups in support of their efforts to collect additional evidence of Saddam's war crimes. Opposition and human rights groups' efforts include:

• Locating witnesses to Iraqi war crimes and help build evidence that could be used to justify the arrest of senior Iraqi officials traveling outside the country.

• Helping analyze captured Iraqi documents and translate them so that the world can be educated about Iraqi war crimes.

The U.S. Government is providing grants to a number of NGO's working on Iraqi war crimes issues. Grants have been provided for gathering evidence, translating captured Iraqi documents written in Arabic into other languages, making evidence of Iraqi war crimes available on the Internet, and taking steps to preserve written, visual and testimonial evidence of the crimes committed by Saddam Hussein's regime.

International efforts to draw attention to the war crimes record of the Iraqi regime has already begun:

• Efforts were made to arrest Izzat Ibrahim, Vice Chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council, while he was visiting Austria in August of 1999.

• A few weeks later, Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz decided not to travel to Italy to attend a conference entitled, "Peace, Prosperity, and an End to War." As one human rights group said, "The only suitable venue for Tariq Aziz to express his opinions is that of a courtroom where we will all have a chance to hear about his government's record on peace, prosperity and war."

Scobby, do you like Kool-Aid? You seem to have been drinking quite a bit of it.

Fox news. Well know vendor of Kool-Aid.
A 7 year old report that had nothing to do with why we invaded Iraq.

Your dogged determination to cling to and force upon others your naive and simplistic world view would be amusing if it weren't for it's toxic results.

Again

(Message edited by smitopher on December 31, 2006)

Let's see, kinda important: 650,000 Iraqis killed since George decided to free them. Certainly important - hundreds of billions of US dollars spent, thousands of lives lost, many thousands of casualties. Also, a non-fuctioning government for a decade to come and the price of oil has doubled.

Yeah, it's a Republican paradise in the Tigris-Euphraties valley thsee days.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of everything in this article (re: the many ways the U.S. facilitated Saddam), but much of it sounds credible:

http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/12/30/top-ten-ways-the-us-enabled-saddam-hussein/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blacklistednews.com%2Fview.asp%3FID%3D1804&frame=true

Scooby: Believe it or not, we all know Saddam was a terrible person. In all likelihood so too will the person in charge of Iraq after things shake out. . So too the dictator in North Korea. Alot of vicious terrible leaders in other countries as well.

Please list each and every country the U.S. should declare war on because they have vicious leaders. For starters, should we declare war on North Korea, let's say tomorrow? How about any countries in Africa where genocide is taking place? We want a complete list, preferably with a explanation for each named country. Please give clear and direct answers (no cut and pasting) to which countries we should declare war on.

And speaking of displaced persons in Iraq, why don't you tell us how many Iraqi citizens have fled the country since the war started. I'm sure with all your knowledge you can recite this number off the top of your head. And how about the number of Iraqis killed as a result of the war?

To clarify, in my post above I meant "so too will the person in charge of Iraq after things shake out be a terrible person." There was some ambiguity in who I phrased that sentence.

Given the above reference to poll data pertaining to beliefs about 9/11, it is interesting to read the headlines to two stories both about what appears to be the same Ipsos poll:


Poll: Americans see gloom, doom in 2007

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061231/ap_on_re_us/2007_predictions_ap_poll

AP poll: Americans optimistic for 2007

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061231/ap_on_re_us/optimism_ap_poll_2

Branquinho,
Why ignore them? Prove they are untrue...isnt' that more fun? Some history (true and factual, not liberal/communist revisionist tripe, is what I'm referring to) is still taught in the heartland, but most history books that are sold to School Systems do not teach the truth/history. ooops /ignored by Branquinho

Let's see, my civics class taught me that the only federal government body that can raise taxes is the United States House of Representatives. For it to become law, it must be passed by the US Senate and then either signed by POTUS or sit on his desk for x-number of days (can't remember at moment) and can then become law without his signature.

And if that's not enough civics class for ya Branquinho, then I offer the Veto. The President can actually VETO a bill (like higher taxes) and then if Congress brings the bill up for a vote again and receives the required number of votes, it overrides POTUS' veto and becomes law. *Provided it is not struck down as unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.* --much luv to ya Branquinho, I know it's tough leaving guvamint skoolz wit ne sort of aktual knowledge.

As to Tica's comments, they can be ignored as the rantings of a Dittohead. "History is not taught in classrooms today." You bet, Tica. It's never taught in classrooms today, anywhere. You're absolutely 100% correct. And Nancy Pelosi can't raise taxes w/o Bush signing the bill. Somebody apparently failed civics in high school.

Catacony,
That is not a fair statement. The Iraqi government, while not tip top shape, does not kill innocent members of their society. They obviously kill criminals. Nor does the Iraqi government rape their women. This is not b/c they are ineffective, it is b/c they are not evil.

Are there militas killing people? I agree, but they do not have WMD-gas to kill others with though. I'm sure the militias rape others. I did not say that people from that part of the world are saints. But a person who lives in a country where their government tries to protect them has it better than one that kills / rapes / tortures them. IMHO.


" Yes, the Iraqi people don't have to worry about their government doing bad things to them because the don't have an effective government at this point. Instead, they have to worry about the dozens of different militias blowing them up, gassing them and raping the women. That's a lot better. "

Ticasonar: So you believe Bush won't veto a tax increase and/or numerous Republicans will join the Democrats to override a veto. Assuming we are talking about a significant tax increase (as opposed to some minor fiddling), I don't think so.

Also, your response to Catacony evidences a similar lack of knowledge and perspective. The militias have become offshoots of the Iraqi government. They use drills to torture their victims before killing them. Sunnis in particular are not protected by the government. Somewhere around 1.5 million Iraqis have fled the country since the war began. Hundreds of thousands have been killed. And so forth.

As becomes quickly apparent in our political discussions at ClubHombre, the few remaining hard-right Republican supporters are amazingly similar. They all have very poor writing skills, cannot form consice arguments, offer zero support for their claims (Nancy Pelosi will raise taxes next year), and generally provide little to zero actual information. Is that what the Republican Party is down to? The least intelligent morons who can't write a sentence and simply regurgitate Fox News soundbites from the last five years?

Did he really just reference WMDs? Even Bush and Cheney are now admitting their aren't any.

Tica-

Thank you for making my point, doofus. The House (and Nancy Pelosi) cannot raise taxes; that requires, as you note, passage by both the House and the Senate and either the signature of the president, an override of his veto, or in unusual cases a bill can become law if 10 days pass without the president signing or vetoing the bill (except if a Congress ends prior to the end of the 10 day period--this would constitute a pocket veto, which cannot be overridden).

Tax bills must originate in the House of Representatives, BUT...they have to be passed by both House and Senate, etc (see above)---

THUS

Nancy Pelosi cannot raise our taxes. And given the following facts:
--the certainty that Bush would veto a tax increase
--the slim margin held by Dems (they could not sustain a veto for a tax increase if the wanted, and many of them would oppose any tax increase)

we aren't going to see a tax increase. Nancy Pelosi is not even going to propose one.

I believe you are the person who implied our taxes are about to rise compliments of Nancy Pelosi. You throw simpleminded statements around, sounding every bit like a Sean Hannity wannabee, and wonder why others think you sound like an idiot?

You guy must be living in fantasy land if you do not think the democrats are not going to raise taxes. Besides thats the way they like people broke and relying on them. They are the only ones they want to have the wealth so they can have the power. They will twist, manipulate and distort the truth and tell any lie just to get back in power.

(Message edited by scooby_1781 on January 01, 2007)

Scooby: Your first sentence is incoherent and incomprehensible. You should try to learn some grammar and only after doing so work on learning something about politics.

(Message edited by LAguy on January 01, 2007)

---

quote:

You guy must be living in fantasy land

---

I remember once during the Nixon-Agnew campaign showing up for an Agnew rally to heckle him . As it turned out, a friend of mine was with a group of organized hecklers so I joined them. Later I found out one of the Nixon/Agnew campaign's dirty tricks was to encourage hecklers at rallies (often paying their leaders) so that middle America would be repulsed by these unruly groups and more likely to vote Republican. Well, now I feel a little stupid, but hey, I was in high school so what did I know?

I'm beginning to think Scooby may be a Democratic pay-back. Anyone who reads his stupid posts which purport to represent the Republican viewpoint are, assuming some level of intelligence, going to be more apt to vote Democratic. But we shouldn't condemn Scooby too harshly. Hey I was in high school when I stupidly joined the anti-Agnew rally; if his writing skills are any indication, Scooby is at this moment likely struggling through junior high and probably doesn't know any better.

Scooby, the guy who wrote a travel guide before he ever visited the location. The guy who picked up a novia on his first mongering trip to Colombia and became an instant mullet by sending her money. The guy who said he was secondaried on his return from his first trip and that later Homeland Security Agents showed up on his doorstep. The guy who supposedly reprinted posts and reports from different members from ClubHombre on another internet site.

I for one am very influenced by his political views.

Don't be too harsh with Scooby, Cat. Didn't your mother tell you to be kind with retarded people?

Retarded people, yes. Arrogant retarded people, no way!

Yeah I see you guys a real humaitarians and typical democrats you have to attact me personally. I never said anything about you just liberals in general. Yet you guys have to pull a typical libral dirty trick by personally attacking me. That just proves to me that liberals are not men of integrity. You can not have a discussion without throwing in as many personal insults as possible.

Sucks being SwiftBoated, heh Scoob? Except what I wrote is 100% accurate. I think you're a nutbar so it's not Fair and Balanced but I'll take 100% accurate any day of the week.

You never did explain how you sat in a gay bar in New Orleans, drinking beer and flirting, er, I mean chatting with another guy and not realize it was a gay bar.

"typical democrats", "liberals"

Scooby, Why is your mind so small? Why do you insist that this is some sort of Republican/Democrat or liberal/conservative dichotomy? I am tired of dittoheads and the cynical Roveian labels and dogma that they regurgitate.

You have failed to demonstrate a single iota of critical reasoning or thought. If you want to be taken seriously, marshal some facts and cogent arguments, otherwise Cat is right. You are a nutbar.

What a loser.

You all just proved my point

And you Scooby have proved ours.

The notion that history is only accurately taught in some of those "heartland" schools is truly comedic, especially considering Tica probably seriously believes that. Such delusional fantasies are truly an embarrassment to the average conservative and more respectable Republicans like Powell and Ford. Oh yeah, he probably thinks Ford was a liberal/commie/revisionist.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,239520,00.html

Maybe Bush went to one of these "heartland" schools. Actually, after viewing the video again and the following page (also with video links), I am sure Bush went to one of these "heartland" schools.
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushdumbquotes.htm

It's bizarre how some on the right believe that most environmentalists, educators, entertainers, and journalists are enemies of patriotic America. What do they think their motivations are, excessive record-high profits?

They also somehow believe that the windfall profits in oil and defense industries as a result of the war, and the relationships between the Bush Administration and these industries, is purely coincidental.
From Fox to avoid the "media bias" whining:
Oil executives and shareholders benefited as their companies reaped record profits. In fact, in 2006, thanks to high oil and gas prices, Exxon Mobil (XOM) reported behemoth earnings of $10.4 billion for the third quarter. That number nearly surpassed Exxon's own record for profit at a publicly traded company, when the oil giant earned $10.71 billion the fourth quarter of 2005. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,240283,00.html)

With those kinds of profits, I'm sure XOM will be able to throw a fair amount of money to organizations that continue to feed the delusions of those well-edjamucated folks like Tica.

Scooby said:
"completly... incredebly hatefull... did very much disagreed... evilo... behond... tid bit incase... humaitarians... attact... libral... etc..."

I think Scooby went to a "heartland" school. It's funny when the scoobs and ticas attempt to argue that the more literate writers are the ones unable to distinguish between fact and propaganda.

I love the passive-aggresive shit from these guys. They were the first to attack - if being called a liberal is an attact - then act all hurt when I or someone else swats them back.

D'art, as I've said, it does seem that the hard Right is down to complete idiots who can't write or form complete thoughts. Take a look at most of the Republican supporter's comments in the political threads from the last six months or so. If someone wants to debate or at least take the Republican side, that's great, we can have a discussion. However, most of the comments are the standard fragmented talking points that Republicans have been reduced to using. Pathetic.

I don't think that it is fair to categorize all Republicans as supporting the war. Overall public support for the war is around 30% and falling. More and more Republicans are coming out against the war. As this trend continues, President Bush will slowly adjust our posture toward Iraq. The wheels of democracy move slowly.

That said, I don't ever see public opinion falling below 20%. Therefore 1/5 Americans will always support this war. I have taken the time to talk to numerous people that still support the war, and I have found that most of their reasons for continuing to support the war are irrational. Just because their reasoning is irrational, does not make their opinion wrong. In fact, it is quite the opposite, this is the nature of democracy. An irrational vote counts the same as a rational vote. An uneducated vote is the same as an educated one, and so on.

I have had some really mind boggling conversations, but the most impressive comment was when one hard right winger accused me :

"You're basing your opinions on your personal experiences and things that you have read."

At this point, I stopped the conversation. As ironic as it sounds, we need to defend these people's right to be stupid, not attack them for being stupid. It is democracy that encourages them to have an opinion.

As noted, the people that still defend the war are not very bright, and cannot write very well. Our capitalistic society does not reward these characteristics. I have found that these people typically have lower incomes, and higher debt levels. I've given some of these people money because I feel sorry for them.

Guys, stop attacking these guys and start pitying them. It's not their fault they are stupid and they live in a democracy.

I must differ with you on one point Bluestraveller, and it is a point I made earlier, if half in jest. If someone is plain vanilla stupid, sure, I may pity them, assuming it is stupidity that is not by their own design (such as intellectual laziness built on someone who otherwise could be smart). But when someone is both stupid and arrogant, this combination will not get my pity no matter how bad the person's lot in life is.

As to giving these people money, I prefer more traditional charities that fight hunger and so forth, so long as the charity does not skim much off the top for operating expenses. Moreover, there is the risk that rather than use the money that is given to them for real needs such as food and medical care, the stupid people with low incomes and high debt levels to whom you refer will use their new found riches to purchase Club Hombre subscriptions so they can continue annoying the membership with their nonsense.

LOL. LA Guy,

That made me laugh, but I disagree strongly. Arrogance plus stupidity is a lethal combination and these people are punished financially disproportionately. Their stupidity impacts their income levels, but it is their arrogance that creates their debt level.

I would say that 1/2 of my money is going to charity, and then the other 1/2 to political contributions and also helping my friends (even if they are stupid and arrogant).

These are the people for which Social Security was designed. And they deserve our pity. Give them another shot.

LAGuy - The militia are n-o-t part of the government. There is a difference between George Bush sending someone to your house to rape the women and children....and the local NAACP, MS13 or KKK sending someone over. -- ps- the Sunnis are the ones bombing the fuk out of the Shiites. I'm saying the majority of the people in the country are better off. If you don't think so, fine by me.

Cat - I wasn't discussing anything about why we went to war. I was talking about Saddam gassing the Kurds. I wonder if you don't believe in the holocaust either. Apologies for not being as smart as you Cat. I didn't know that was a requirement to participate here.
- - on the passive-aggressive thing...I don't care if you call me a conservative, libertarian or republican as I don't consider it derogatory. Therefore, I don't understand why you think us calling people of your persuasion lefties, libs or democrats is said with malice. But when you guys start typing 'moron', 'dufus', etc. it kinda proves Scooby's point.

Branquinho - I didn't make your point. The person that controls the house is the Speaker. The only body that can raise taxes is the House. It does require support from other branches. But if you want to parce this stuff that much, I can't stop you. I await my new nickname... --If you think Bush is a guarantee veto on tax increases, then please ship me some of what you got in your pipe. --I don't wonder why people think I sound like an idiot...don't know where you got that from...although when discussing politics with liberals, it's part of the game. And yes, my comments can be simple-minded...I didn't know this was ClubHarvard.

Bluestraveller - we don't live in a democracy....we live in a republic. Let me know the next time you're going to CR or Colombia and I'll let you buy me a plane ticket and give you a chance to teach me how to be liberal. Social Security should be done away with and privatized.

d'artagnan - Ford nor Powell are symbols of the GOP any more than Cindy Sheehan. - on Bushisms...I love 'em...heck, if it wasn't for tax cuts and the war, he would be called a liberal as much as he's increased the size of government. - oil companies are making money. don't pick on them too much, if it wasn't for their success, Bluestraveller wouldn't have as much money to give us poor, dumb, illiterate republicans on social security.

may allah shower much happiness on your liberal towers

TicaSonar,

For a second, I actually considered sending you some money because I genuinely feel sorry for you. Like I said before, I have helped others like you financially, but it was to start businesses. The business will most likely fail, because they lack the basic skills to succeed but at least it gives them a glimmer of hope and then they go on social security and medicare.

It is so clear that your last email is a cry for help. I just spent some time with my family, and my youngest nephew is not very bright. He is only 8 but he has trouble articulating, and his mathematical skills are poor. But like you, he is still an American.

My nephew has not yet had the opportunity to become arrogant like you, and I pray he avoids the traps that you fell into. My brother has told me stories about how the others pick on him, because he isn't as smart. I will do the same here. Please stop picking on TicaSonar. The flaws in his logic are painfully obvious but we should not be delighting in his inability to communicate and comprehend. He is still an American.

I will however respond to your last comment. There is no doubt that you are dumb, and you are Republican. This does not make all Republicans dumb, just you.

"That is not a fair statement. The Iraqi government, while not tip top shape, does not kill innocent members of their society. They obviously kill criminals. Nor does the Iraqi government rape their women. This is not b/c they are ineffective, it is b/c they are not evil. "

Actually, many elements of the Iraqi puppet government have been infiltrated by the militia, and use government facilities and other assets to kill innocent civilians. Your tax dollars at work.

Tica-

Simpleminded statements such as the ones you offer are exactly what degrades political discourse, and is unfortunately a primary tool of the far right.

As Explorer notes above, the Sadr militia has infiltrated various elements of the government, with the support of Prime Minister al-Malaki. The Health Ministry is controlled by Sadr and colleagues and has been used as a jobs program for militamen loyal to Sadr, who operates the Mahdi Army that has been runing sectarian death squads.

The Interior Ministry, responsible for the police forces in Iraq, is run by the leader of the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI). He has filled the police forces with members of SCIRI's Badr Brigade, the party's militia which has engaged in widespread murder and torture of Sunnis. Militias are now fully integrated into the police force, which is why no one in Iraq trusts the police or the government.

Fortunately, fewer and fewer Americans think like you do, Tica. They have figured out that this war is a misbegotten clusterfuck. They overwhelmingly disagree with your "privatize Social Security" sentiments. They realiize that we live in a constitutional republic featuring representative democracy (and they can hold more than two concepts in their minds at the same time). And they are wrestling with the complexities of America's proper role in situations such as Iraq, S. Korea, Somalia, Darfur, etc., rather than tossing off simpleminded defenses of the Bush's policy in Iraq. Until you can talk about US foreign policy in a more comprehensive fashion--dealing with questions such as: Does our rationale for invading Iraq mean we should defend the people in Darfur by sending our troops to the Sudan?--please spare us the Fox News rehash and inane oversimplifications.

You know, I never thought I'd reach the point where I'd feel sorry for his lacking intelligence, but after Ticasonar wrote the following--"[T}he Sunnis are the ones bombing the fuk out of the Shiites. I'm saying the majority of the people in the country are better off"--I'm there.

The intelligent ones have left the Republican party, as I quickly did 15 years ago. I was talking with an old friend the other night who told me had voted for a Democrat for the first time in the November elections. I asked him how he felt and he said "liberating, and not like the Iraqi kind"

I'm not sure if it's 20% like BT says, I would say higher than that. The christian fundementalists are fairly easy to brainwash and they'll believe anything the higher ups tell them, and won't change their opinion unless their god comes down and tells them so. Since that isn't going to happen unless there is a major LSD release into the municipal water supplies in the red states, we'll be burdened with that large group believing what they believe.

Hell, I have more money in my wallet since the BUSH fascist party has taken over. They want the best for all of us, riiiiiiiiiiggggghhhhhhhhhhhtttttttttttt. War is big money, with the big mafia, and big business. 9-11 was their ticket into record breaking profits for them only; the rest of the country gets fucked in so many ways it is inconceivable that anyone in their right mind can see this administration (which got in illegally in 2000, let us remember) as anything more than a multinational boyz club that siphons more for them and far less for everyone else. Greed boys............it has always been about greed and control. With our civil liberties dwindling each year, my only remaining question is; how long before writing this "piece of my mind" gets me thrown in jail? What will guys like Scooby and all the other Bush ass-kissers do then? Get in line for their SS uniform? Take a look at Nazi Germany in the early 30's and you see the blueprint of what is now happening in America. History has repeated itself as most of the population argues over stupid details inbetween commercial breaks of their favorite TV shows. Due to our own ignorance and ability to be sheeped along, we have lost the very essence of what we are all about. I'm moving to Key West and buying a very big boat! The Bermuda Tryangle looks like a great place for up and coming real estate!

After alot of introspection . . . about the discussions contained in this thread . . . I'm about to make an announcement:

I hereby endorse the following ticket for President/VP in 2008

EDWARDS/OBAMA

You heard it here first (or maybe somewhere else, who the hell knows).

I vote for Kenny from South Park.

Has he announced?

Edwards has about as much chance as winning as Kerry.

Here is my rationale as a partisan Democrat who wants the Dems to win in 2008, even if it is with a candidate who otherwise might not be my first choice.

Edwards would get virtually every vote Hillary would plus some votes Hillary wouldn't. Obama on the ticket would result in the largest African American turnout in our history; might harm the Democratic ticket with the racist vote, but they are not going to get it anyway. OTOH Obama at the top of the ticket would be risky given his lack of experience.

Only flaw I see in the logic is if Guiliani somehow was able to carry New York against Edwards/Obama but not against Hillary. But I don't see that happening for a variety of reasons.

So DM, where is the flaw in the logic? Incidentally, if you are talking about Kerry in 2004, a 60,000 vote swing in Ohio and he would be President today. I also don't foresee Edwards being swift-boated.

It is really difficult to analyze for a variety of reasons.

If you look at recent history, a governor always has a much better chance of winning the presidency than a senator. I think that a governor tends to run a better more organized campaign, and also their traffic is not under the same microscope as a US Senator. So I think it will be interesting to see if any governors throw their hat in the ring.

The other factor is who the Republicans put up. Again, if they put up a governor (not a mayor), it will change the dynamics quite a bit. I think that if the Republicans put up McCain that would be the best chance for the democrats.

Bluestraveller: There are a variety of reasons governors have tended to do better in recent times than Senators (but then again, remember the string Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon). Among the problems Senators have is a long voting record that can be dissected and mis-contrued (since many votes are cast on procedural not substantive grounds such as when someone votes against a program they might support because they favor a version of the same bill that is different in terms of costs, or what have you). In Edwards' case, he was a Senator for only one term, and is not presently in the Senate. So, I'm not sure he is all that disadvantaged by being an ex-Senator.

But I agree it is difficult to analyze at this point. And very early on I supported a Kerry/Edwards ticket as the most winnable in 2004 (with a brief period of support for Wesley Clark when Kerry initially faltered), so what do I know?

LAG-- the last cnn poll had guiliani a slight bit ahead of mccain for the repubs and hillary a wide lead for the dems. Way in back of her is kerry and edwards (who were roughly tied with 14%/ea).

Edwards and obama aren't going to with in the north and middle states. Edwards flopped throughout the midwest and NE last go around and this time is not going to be any better. Hillary makes an interesting story, but I seriously doubt the country is ready to make her the first woman pres.

Yeah, but the first poll of likely Iowa caucus voters had Edwards ahead of Hillary by 4 points. This poll was taken before Obama got off the ground, but if it were to hold and Edwards won Iowa, that would likely make him the alternative to Hillary going foward, something alot of Dems will be looking for. OTOH, it would not surprise me if at the first sign of weakness in Hillary's candidacy, Al Gore got back into the race.

I've not idea how things will pan out-- it will be an interesting race for sure. I think McCain, or most any dem will do better than Bush tho, thus won't bitch too much. Unfort, the only person that I would actually get a little excited about is Powell, but he's had his fill of politics dealing with the Bush underlings methinks.

I would hate to see Hillary nominated because she can't win the general election. The US will have a woman president one day but not in two years and certainly not that woman. She's devisive amoung Democrats and would unite the Republicans.

Obama is a bad option because he's been on the national scene for all of two years and the US will not vote to elect a minority president anytime soon.

Edwards is a good pick, I liked him in 04 and he's a good campaigner and has good people skills. He would have probably beaten Bush.

A good Democratic governor would be the best pick. My man Mark Warner doesn't want to run this time around, and I like Vilsack and Iowa is a swing state.

Kerry is done, which is good because a lot of us did not like him in 04. He has a permenant pole stuck up his ass and has the people skills of a toaster but he would have been much better than Bush,

Gore would still be a great pick, he won it once but got screwed but he won't run. Too bad.

See the Al Gore global warming movie. It ain't gonna matter too much longer who is in office.

SP

I hope Hillary gets the nomination cause then a Republican would be President. No one in their right mind would vote for her.

(Message edited by scooby_1781 on January 05, 2007)

Like Scooby I also have a preference for the nominee of the party I detest. And the wiener is: Senator Sam Brown[blow]back, the Kansas Republican. No complicated analysis, I just think it is a fitting name for a Republican candidate.

Incidentally, upon further consideration if Edwards/Obama is not the ticket for the Democrats in 2008, I would secondarily go for Edwards/Richardson (New Mexico governor, not the dead Texas ex-governor).

Blues...you don't need to stand up for me...been taking name calling from lefties for many years....I'll be just fine in my underground bunker.

Explorer...infilitration means that they are not known to be such. Therefore, they are not supported by the Iraqi govt.

Bwana_Dik....why do you elitistist-type lefties get so upset at simplemindedness? I thought we established what website we're typing on already. I never said that bad mofos were not employed by the Iraqi Govt.(just like every other govt in the world) and I don't disagree with your statement about their Interior Ministry. I said Saddam out of power means the people of Iraq don't have to worry about their govt killing or raping them and they are therefore better off. Your last paragraph is politics...can't wait 'til the 2008 election cycle. So far your team is 0-1 where the War on Terrorism / Foreign Policy is concerned.

LAGuy....sorry...you got me on that one....those two sentences shouldn't have been run together. I was saying that the Sunnis are the terrorists that are bombing the fuk out of the Shias, including things like Mosques. The comment about the Iraqi people being better off was referring to our prior posts. So I can't blame you for "being there on that one".

Cat....the people that switched to Dems this election cycle have been purported to be the Christian Fundamentalists. Others say it was the fiscal voters that didn't vote for the GOP candidate that cost them.

LAGuy....if Richardson from NM runs, it will only be for President. He's not gonna be 2nd chair for a lightweight like Edwards. Brownback won't get 5% in the primary. PS- Edwards doesn't live in NC any longer...he's been a resident of Iowa since 2004. Though he does get a paycheck from UNC for starting the Poverty Center.

Scooby...be careful what you wish for...Hillary/whoever, McCain/whoever(something I don't believe will happen) = 3rd Party border control candidate and another Clinton gets in office with 40% of the vote.

Tica said:

---

quote:

I'll be just fine in my underground bunker.

---

Yeah, the Democrats picked up a lot of the christian fundementalist vote in the last election

Who's going to vate for a guy named Vilsack ? Sounds like an STD not a President.

Tica

The " majority " of the Iraqi's are Shiite so of course they think they are better off now. That's only because the Iraqi government- specifically the Police Dept ,which is comprised and controlled by Shia militias - is now killing Sunnis instead of Shiites and Kurds.

Now that's progress and certainly worth losing American lives right ?

Tica said:
"And yes, my comments can be simple-minded...I didn't know this was ClubHarvard."
"I thought we established what website we're typing on already."

That's an interesting tactic, admit and embrace your lack of intelligent discourse and excuse it as suitable given that the main topic of the website is international prostitution. By the way, what intelligent discourse have you added that pertains to P4P? I don't see much when clicking on your username. I guess you still haven't quite understood what website you're typing on.

Back to XOM, UCS just recently released a report documenting XOM's adoption of tobacco industry tactics by spending $16 million to distort scientific research on global warming.
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7006038678
http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/global_warming/exxon_report.pdf

The scoobs and ticas must really be frightened by their delusions of widespread domination of science, education, and media by allah-worshiping traitors and communists.

I would like to see either a gore/edwards or an edwards/gore ticket. But more importantly, lets see what happens in the next year and a 1/2, starting with today.

I'm really looking foward to Bush's speech tonight. I expect him to either throw up during his speech and choke on his vomit (he may have gotten the "throw-up" genes from his Dad) or, at least, have a shaking nervous breakdown, at which point he'll have to be led away by his aides.

Either way, it's a win-win situation.

I guess I got it wrong. Bush didn't get nauseous during his speech, I did.

Your lucky you only got nauseous. I'm starting to get a little nervous myself.

I fear that one of these days when I go to my mail box, I'm going to find a letter telling me that I'm getting recalled to active duty.

RG.

Another 20,000 troops to basically ride around and get shot at. The internal Iraqi political situation continues to get worse, not better, so how can the military be successful at all? There's nothing there for them to prop up.

That's right cat.

http://www.break.com/pictures/jan9sfw28.html

RG.

The dirtiest business in the world is politics. Democrats, Republicans and the other so called groups all say they have your best interest and they don't. If politicians truly cared about this country it wouldn't matter what affilation you belong to. The problem is us. Today's society has a me first attitude. People are not concern with the social ills of this country until it effects them directly or indirectly. People like to be lied to. What I mean by that people like to believe certain things and politicians deliever on that. Change is only going to come from us, until then same business as usual.

vote neither Democratic or Republican in 2008!!
corruption and incompetence abounds both parties. we need change soon, or we'll go down the tube !! if we haven't already.

>>vote neither Democratic or Republican in 2008<<

Echoes of what some on the fringes were saying in 2008. And we have to thank them for giving us Bush, and by extension the incompetently run Iraq war (although I don't particularly want to repeat the obvious, without clowns voting for Nader in 2000, Gore would have won unequivocally).

Well said LaGuy.

Actually, I should have said "Echoes of what some on the fringes were saying in 2000." But I think what I meant to say was probably rather obvious.