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Beachman: Do you have any original thoughts or are you just a fuckretarded moron who is capable of no more than cutting and pasting drivel that other morons have posted on the internet (and without even giving them credit)?

As much as I hate directing anyone to a website with such word-for-word drivel, here is one of many:
http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/this-teacher-is-a-genius-an-example-of-why-socialism-will-fail-please-share-and-comment/question-857441/

To everyone except for Beachman. How do we reconcile the fact that soon the largest economy, the largest exporter, the largest military, and the best green strategy will all be Chinese, which is of course Commmunist?

You got a good point Bluestraveller. Maybe rather than annoying Beachman and DG by touting socialism and giving a lot of money to prop up the Wall Street banks via his socialist agenda, Obama should get with the program and become a communist.

The funniest irony from all of you left leaners? You made your money from working or investing in a capitalist nation, used it to exploit the women of poorer nations and then badmouth capitalism...

Beachman's post illustrates the core problem with socialism.

BT's post illustrates the combination of ruthless communism with asian work ethic, yet I doubt we'll see BT moving to China anytime soon :rolleyes:

Capitalism American style seems to have run it's course. The USA is falling from within, and now it's time for the vocal liberals to rattle their sabers about the ills of our society. How sad...

The only people who talk about socialism these days are the far-right wackos trying to find a fictional derogatory label to defame our President with, whether it be alien, socialist, or whatever other derogatory label they can come up with.

Deeg!........you literally believe that the universe is 6,000-10,000 years old. Can't you get back to CPL calculation posts?

If the US is falling from within, I suppose it has nothing to do with unfettered capitalism (which is different from capitalism, DG) running the economy into the ground in search of obscene profits for corporate masters and big shareholders, consequences to the rest of the US (and global) economy be damned.

Try reading Richard Posner's book, "A Failure of Capitalism." Posner is Mr. Chicago School of Law and Economics. He's the guy that sparked the neocon economic revolution, and was the intellectual muscle behind such libertarian groups as the Cato Instiute, a group who never have seen a regulation that shouldn't be killed.

Posner has switched ground, arguing that he and his colleagues went too far, and that the version of capitalism they championed, and that is still being championed by the Senate Republicans, who are out to kill all regulation of the financial industries, was flat-out wrong. And not merely wrong, but destructive.

In his newest book, "The Crisis of Capitalist Democracy," Posner clearly has made the leap to a sophisticated form of Keynesian economic thinking that challenges both right and left. It's worth a read.

So the version of capitalism that so many on the right (the neo-cons and the economic libertarians)--markets know best, leave them alone, blah, blah, blah--has lost its greatest intellectual proponent, who is now calling for regulation very much like what Obama has proposed.

Imagine that.

Deeg,

Why would I move out to China? I have already moved out of the country that is imploding. Brazil has the highest interest rates in the world.

I agree with almost all of your post.

"Capitalism American style seems to have run it's course."

It does feel like the end game and there is no wiggle room to get out of it.

"The USA is falling from within,"
The largest debtor nation in the world. The largest trade deficit in the world. No true manufacturing base. The only hope is that the dollar will fall which will allow the country to export again. But since we import so much, it will be associated with a huge decline in standard of living.

"and now it's time for the vocal liberals to rattle their sabers about the ills of our society."

This problem is not a liberal conservative thing. It is the result of decades of mismanagement on both sides and more importantly the Fed.

"How sad..."

I agree. It all makes me sad.

See what happens when all you can do is read a tele-prompter. 3000% and Obama couldn't catch that one on his own. Are you liberals still defending your God!


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100317/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_overhaul_fact_check

Hey Beachie,

How are they hanging? While you're wacking off to this shit, a bunch of us CHers are down in Rio actually fucking women. Imagine that! Oh, I suppose you can't.

Just finished a three-hour fuck fest with a petite little morena who is famous for fucking guys senseless. I'll be very sore tomorrow. Kinda of like how you must feel after a day of flogging your Li'l Beachie while coming up with uninteresting links no one even clicks on any longer. Except my soreness is compliments of a smoking three-holer, not a right hand.

Happy wanking!

Beachman: I came across an article that shows the results of a UK-style communistic health-care system: The communistas who run the hospitals impose a totalitarian "no sitting" rule on all visitors. This regime of torture is even worse I dare say than the death-panels Sarah Palin graciously brought to our attention. Parenthetically, I can only be thankful that my grandparents are already dead and therefore will not have to appear before them.

Although I hate generally to encourage your efforts, I am feeling unusually charitable today, so you may want to spread this one around the internet in a last-gasp attempt to stymie health-care reform (it would be much more compelling than your usual drivel):

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100317/ap_on_he_me/eu_med_hospital_sitting_ban

Good luck!

(Message edited by laguy on March 17, 2010)

In 1966 the Democrats told us that Medicare would cost us $9 billion a year by 1990. What was the actual tab? Try $110 billion a year.

If they can fine you for not paying Health Care preminums...they can fine you for anything in the future........

And isn't it ironic that one of the arguments the Republicans used against the present health care bill was that it would result in cuts being made to Medicare?

Beachman, do you plan on going on Medicare when you reach your 60s or will you pay a few thousand a month for a private plan?

Or, will you do what we all hope and just hang yourself before you reach 60? Or tomorrow, whichever comes first.

Actually, we know our Medicare arguments are all bullshit because of course everyone knows the half billion in cuts in Medicare was all a lie anyway. Good or bad, spending on Medicare is only increasing. But it always riles the old people so good and makes 'em pissed off at Democrats to tell them their medicare is getting cut so of course we spread those rumors.

Today we are thinking of spreading rumors of free abortion clinics already being set up for illegal aliens.

Hey, does Medicare pay for anything if I am old and sick is some "fun" country? Because of course I plan to retire and move to someplace "fun" as soon as I get enough money to hold out long term. Actually I really don't know the rules but I am assuming Medicare will do nothing for me. Hopefully I will be able to afford the local health care wherever I end up and in any case I will die with a smile on my face.

Sancho, the ex-con who gets free medical care from the San Diego free clinic. Sounds like you've been getting state-supported health care one way or another for most of your adult life.

I am in fact the poster child for why goberment health care is a bad idea. Best for everyone to have guys like me paying for my own health care.

The government is now mandating what goods and services you must buy even if you don't want it and you libs were worried about Bush wiretaping phone calls from out of the country.....Oh...I forgot Obama is still wire tapping....one of the many promises he has broken!

What a Pandora's box that has been opened....Big Brother...........

Beachman, just wait, our next operation is to take your guns and bibles away.

Obama is watching YOU, Beachman. Health care reform was just a ruse he used so he could gather more information about you, force you to do things you don't want to do, and take every penny you earn.

If I were you I'd move to Somalia. No government health care. No taxes. No government. It's the Teabagger's idea of heaven on earth.

Do they have $3 hookers in Somalia? I'm there dude!!!

Hey, I was wondering? What is worse? To be be the teabagger???? or to be the one getting tebagged???? I mean, well, I could see how your guys could be getting pretty upset at constantly getting teabagged every time they turn around.

The Teabaggers have Teabagger parties. We are most definitely not invited. They teabag one another.

Somalia is your place. You can get laid in exchange for a 50¢ bag of rice. And they don't know what condoms are.

Beachman, you should go, maybe you can find Obama's real birth certificate too.

Question though, is it ok for a Republican to lay down with an African? I think that violates the racial purity platform they have.

... the next post is probably more on point ..

(Message edited by LAguy on March 23, 2010)

OTOH, I suspect the closest Beachman has come to having sex with a person of color (even if the color is orange), is when he jacks off to youtube videos of John Boehner addressing Congress.

This should get Beachman hard (if he's still capable):

This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy.

I then took a shower in the clean water provided by a municipal water utility.

After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like, using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

At the appropriate time, as regulated by the U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the U.S. Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank.

On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the U.S. Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and Fire Marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.

And then I log on to the internet -- which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration -- and post on Freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.

(Message edited by Xenono on March 24, 2010)

Xenono:

You really need to slow down and smell the roses.

This, of course, is not so difficult to do because the air is much less polluted than it otherwise would be owing to the federal Clean Air Act.

Then you plotted your next escape to some third world hell hole where you can enjoy a little freedom.

Power distribution REQUIRES power lines cross vast swaths of public and private land. It is by definition a public, collective endeavor. It could not be accomplished by only private companies due to the huge number of public domain issues. Therefore an appropriate role for government.

Water is largely a public resource. Who owns the Colorado River? We the people do. Who needs to control its use? We the people do. How does it get to my house? It crosses public land and private land I do not own. All very appropriate roles for government.

Broadcast TV, radio, cell phones and all of that. Radio frequencies are a public but finite resource. It has to be controlled by the government or one person could destroy it for everyone. Your radio waves cross through my brain, all that stuff. A very appropriate role for government to control.

Weather? One bad storm can wipe out a city. It is a very public issue.

Department of Agriculture? A crop disease or food contamination could kill vast numbers.

FDA? Not so much. Apparently a puppet of big drug companies. Limited usefulness but everyone around here would likely risk buying Chinese Viagra because the rules are so screwed up here.

Roads HAVE to be collective public property. I can't get to work on a road I own. Therefore an appropriate role for government.

Police enforce the public laws. Theoretically they need to answer directly to the people via government control. private police would be 'bad'.

Fire. If my house burns uncontrolled, my neighbors house may burn, then the block may burn, then the city may burn. Even though it is outrageously inefficient, there HAS to be a public fire department.

Internet? EXPLODED in an unbelievable way many times over what the government ever would have done WHEN THE GOVERNMENT GOT OUT OF THE INTERNET BUSINESS.

Do you think you would have a high speed cable modem for $30-$40 a month if the government enforced a government monopoly to this day???????

Do you see a theme here. Government role is managing public resources and public problems.

Now to health care and the governments role. Infectious disease? If I don't/can't treat my plague, then it can become the peoples plague. Vaccinations and virulent disease control has a very public role. Government needs to be there. OTOH, My high blood pressure, how is that ANYONE'S business if I am not making it anyone's business. It is not a public issue. At all. Yet some piece of shit I never even met who is taking my money from me by force to decide for me what the fuck should be done about my blood pressure. That is bullshit. The government has no role.

The problem with BOTH the far left and the far right is they both feel an overwhelming NEED to try and impose their morality on other peoples private life. Christians are cool with me, liberals are cool with me, hell, I even like socialists in general. But people getting puffed up and telling me they will control my private life AND force me to pay them to control my private life. That is what makes me and others angry.

Hmmmmm, do I smell widespread backlash out there in the streets. As a general rule people don't like having others morality shoved down their throats.

I think you are greatly over exaggerating the reach of the individual mandate.

You could still not get insurance and pay the fine instead. When the states challenge this it will hold up in court. Because it will be argued it is a tax. The government DOES have the right to tax. And the fine will be administered by the IRS.

Get insurance? You get a tax break. Don't get insurance, you don't get the tax break and pay higher taxes. (the fine.) And everyone loves to complain about taxes anyway.

And if you don't want to treat your high blood pressure, don't. I haven't seen anything that forces someone to seek care.

Ironically enough, this is pretty much Mitt Romney's health care bill he passed in Massachusetts. He was for it, before he was against it. He argued strongly for the individual mandate, as without it, healthy people could just wait until they got sick and then sign up for health insurance since denying people based on pre-existing conditions is now a thing of the past. It is a fair and reasonable compromise and a big nod to the insurance companies.

No one complains about having to get insurance if you want to drive. Of course, people are driving by choice. But are they? Maybe in Manhattan. But not in most of America's sprawling and spread out cities that have limited or no public transportation

The fine starts at $95 in 2014 and gradually increases to $695. Just think of it as another tax. Like I said, everyone loves to complain about taxes. Then you can still not have insurance and keep your high blood pressure, all at the same time!

(Message edited by Xenono on March 24, 2010)

A nice link for Beachman. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=teabagging

I wonder just how many of those "tea party" fools that call themselves tea baggers understand why a lot of people are laughing at them.

Re: The backlash in the streets and people don't like morality being shoved down their throats. I have observed it really depends on who is doing the shoving. If it is "their guy" it is cool.

When Republicans have their guy doing it, it is mostly ok. Lots of ideas in this health care bill were their ideas. Yet not one Republican voted for it. RomneyCare and ObamaCare are fairly close. Scott Brown was for RomneyCare when he was in the State Senate, before he was against ObamaCare.

When Liberals like me have our guys doing it, it is mostly ok.

The Libertarians and Independents get screwed by both sides. They might as well just pick one...

A lot of the people that are against the health care reform are the very people that will benefit the most from it's passage. The problem is they just got caught up in the frenzy that the opponents of the bill created, with their half truths. These are people that I like to say vote rich, and live poor. That is they vote the Republican party line, without understanding how doing so effects them in a negative financial manner.

Here is an article from a newspaper that may help explain this line of thought.

In Health Bill, Obama Attacks Wealth Inequality
By DAVID LEONHARDT
Published: March 23, 2010
For all the political and economic uncertainties about health reform, at least one thing seems clear: The bill thatPresident Obama signed on Tuesday is the federal government’s biggest attack on economic inequality since inequality began rising more than three decades ago.

Over most of that period, government policy and market forces have been moving in the same direction, both increasing inequality. The pretax incomes of the wealthy have soared since the late 1970s, while their tax rates have fallen more than rates for the middle class and poor.

Nearly every major aspect of the health bill pushes in the other direction. This fact helps explain why Mr. Obama was willing to spend so much political capital on the issue, even though it did not appear to be his top priority as a presidential candidate. Beyond the health reform’s effect on the medical system, it is the centerpiece of his deliberate effort to end what historianshave called the age of Reagan.

Speaking to an ebullient audience of Democratic legislators and White House aides at the bill-signing ceremony on Tuesday, Mr. Obama claimed that health reform would “mark a new season in America.” He added, “We have now just enshrined, as soon as I sign this bill, the core principle that everybody should have some basic security when it comes to their health care.”

The bill is the most sweeping piece of federal legislation sinceMedicare was passed in 1965. It aims to smooth out one of the roughest edges in American society — the inability of many people to afford medical care after they lose a job or get sick. And it would do so in large measure by taxing the rich.

A big chunk of the money to pay for the bill comes from lifting payroll taxes on households making more than $250,000. On average, the annual tax bill for households making more than $1 million a year will rise by $46,000 in 2013, according to the Tax Policy Center, a Washington research group. Another major piece of financing would cut Medicare subsidies for private insurers, ultimately affecting their executives and shareholders.

The benefits, meanwhile, flow mostly to households making less than four times the poverty level — $88,200 for a family of four people. Those without insurance in this group will become eligible to receive subsidies or to join Medicaid. (Many of the poor are already covered by Medicaid.) Insurance costs are also likely to drop for higher-income workers at small companies.

Finally, the bill will also reduce a different kind of inequality. In the broadest sense, insurance is meant to spread the costs of an individual’s misfortune — illness, death, fire, flood — across society. Since the late 1970s, though, the share of Americans withhealth insurance has shrunk. As a result, the gap between the economic well-being of the sick and the healthy has been growing, at virtually every level of the income distribution.

The health reform bill will reverse that trend. By 2019, 95 percent of people are projected to be covered, up from 85 percent today (and about 90 percent in the late 1970s). Even affluent families ineligible for subsidies will benefit if they lose their insurance, by being able to buy a plan that can no longer charge more for pre-existing conditions. In effect, healthy families will be picking up most of the bill — and their insurance will be somewhat more expensive than it otherwise would have been.

Much about health reform remains unknown. Maybe it will deliver Congress to the Republicans this fall, or maybe it will help the Democrats keep power. Maybe the bill’s attempts to hold down the recent growth of medical costs will prove a big success, or maybe the results will be modest and inadequate. But the ways in which the bill attacks the inequality of the Reagan era — whether you love them or hate them — will probably be around for a long time.

“Legislative majorities come and go,” David Frum, a former speechwriter for PresidentGeorge W. Bush, lamented on Sunday. “This health care bill is forever.”

Since Mr. Obama began his presidential campaign in 2007, he has had a complicated relationship with the Reagan legacy. He has been more willing than many other Democrats to praise President Reagan. “Reagan’s central insight — that the liberal welfare state had grown complacent and overly bureaucratic,” Mr. Obama wrote in his second book, “contained a good deal of truth.” Most notably, he praised Mr. Reagan as a president who “changed the trajectory of America.”

But Mr. Obama also argued that the Reagan administration had gone too far, and that if elected, he would try to put the country on a new trajectory. “The project of the next president,” he said in an interview during the campaign, “is figuring out how you create bottom-up economic growth, as opposed to the trickle-down economic growth.”

Since 1980, median real household income has risenless than 15 percent. The only period of strong middle-class income growth during this time came in the mid- and late 1990s, which by coincidence was also the one time when taxes on the affluent were rising.

For most of the last three decades, tax rates for the wealthy have been falling, while their pretax pay has been rising rapidly. Real incomes at the 99.99th percentile have jumpedmore than 300 percent since 1980. At the 99th percentile — about $300,000 today — real pay has roughly doubled.

The laissez-faire revolution that Mr. Reagan started did not cause these trends. But its policies — tax cuts, light regulation, a patchwork safety net — have contributed to them.

Health reform hardly solves all of the American economy’s problems. Economic growth over the last decade was slowerthan in any decade since World War II. The tax cuts of the last 30 years, the two current wars, the Great Recession, the stimulus program and the looming retirement of the baby boomers have created huge deficits. Educational gains have slowed, and the planet is getting hotter.

Above all, the central question that both the Reagan and Obama administrations have tried to answer — what is the proper balance between the market and the government? — remains unresolved. But the bill signed on Tuesday certainly shifts our place on that spectrum.

Before he became Mr. Obama’s top economic adviser,Lawrence Summers told me a story about helping his daughter study for herAdvanced Placement exam in American history. While doing so, Mr. Summers realized that the federal government had not passed major social legislation in decades. There was the frenzy of the New Deal, followed by the G.I. Bill, the Interstate Highway System, civil rights and Medicare — and then nothing worth its own section in the history books.

Now there is.

Well, at least IAS is slowly making some progress. Sometime ago he berated me for suggesting the government should control air quality since this violated the sanctity of the free market.

It is so gratifying to see that at least one free-market religionist is capable of shedding some of his fundamentalism by belatedly acknowledging there is a role for at least some government regulation.

Lets examine my high blood pressure since it is such a profound matter of national political upheaval. As I have mentioned before, I am the poster child for every thing that is wrong with socialized medicine.

I used to take Lisinopril. Worked great, generic costs $4 a month at Walmart with no insurance. I'm a big boy, theoretically in a free country. I can monitor my own damn blood pressure for free. So....... If I were kicked out on the street tomorrow in a free country, it is a $48 a year problem.

Enter the HMO and QUASI-Socialism. So then I had this chronic cough so I went to the doctor. I'm thinking for a chronic cough you might do a chest x-ray or something but what do I know I'm not the doctor. He spent 30 seconds looking at me, said it was probably the Lisinopril, wrote me a prescription for Diovan and was gone in a minute. Cost to me $5 copay for the office visit, $5/month copay for the Diovan. Probably my insurance paid a couple hundred for the office visit and now $90/month for the Diovan vs $4/month for the Lisinopril. But what the fuck do I care? I don't. It still costs me $5 under the quasi-socialist HMO. The chronic cough never did go away. Still haven't got that chest x-ray.

So now me, mister don't give a fuck, am shelling out $60 a year instead of $48 for a drug that as far as I can tell is the same. So, no big deal, I don't care. But my quasi-socialist HMO is shelling out over $1,000 a year instead of..... nothing when I was paying for the $4/month drug. Now if it was a free country and if I were paying, I would go down to Walmart and buy the cheap stuff. But with the quasi-socialist HMO I have to take time off of work...make an office visit....wait around it the waiting room, all so I save $1/month out of pocket and so that the HMO can save $90/month.

So now the HMO probably has a team of cost cutters studying the problem in some office somewhere. They have mailed me pleas to split tablets and stuff but since it costs me $5, I really do not care.

Now pile on top of that about 12 layers of Federal bureaucracy. You had a problem I could readily deal with on my own for $48/Year, turned into an over $1,000 a year problem plus considerable more inconvenience to me under the HMO, to probably a $5,000 a year problem for the massive layers of free health care bureaucracy to take care of. But I will never care so long as I am FORCED to pay for the bureaucracy one way or the other and the other part costs me $5. The problem with socialism and free health care as well as quasi-socialism and HMO's it there is a total disconnect between the consumer and actual cost. In a capitalist system no way in hell could you hawk a drug for $90/month that was no better than a drug for $4/month but under socialism no one anywhere directly associated with the actual health care even cares.

Laguy, I will cede to you the point that the air is a public resource where the government has a role to manage it for the greater public good. Cap and trade is just silly and I maintain all "carbon" schemes are if nothing else futile because the global market will ignore artificial caps but..... yes air quality is a public issue and while probably no one on any side would be happy, the market and opposing political ideologies have probably more or less battled to and appropriate stalemate.

Well, IAS is correct that whenever you impose a bureaucracy to oversee a problem there will be inevitable waste, although that is not to say there necessarily won't be counterbalancing benefits. In any event, I'm not convinced a quasi-federally-regulated insurance system is going to waste more money than the present "quasi-socialist" one (using IAS's terminology), which is extremely wasteful and inefficient.

Sounds like IAS would prefer we just didn't have any health insurance. If you get sick and don't have enough money to pay the doctors, pharmacists, and hospitals, you die (and perhaps take others with you if you have an undiagnosed contagious condition). Or, at least, you can go bankrupt. Fair enough.

I prefer a system where reasonable insurance and insurance practices are available to the general public. And frankly, if private insurance companies can't do the job (as they have demonstrated they cannot), bring on the government.

IAS: FWIW, our earlier discussion on this subject had nothing to do with cap and trade, which I will admit I haven't really studied enough to have formed an opinion about. In that discussion, I simply suggested that one reason we needed government was to regulate such things as air quality to which your response in substance was to let the free market take care of such things and that I needed stronger lungs.

I have no expectation health care will ever be fixed. IMO it is too far gone based on an entire population groomed from birth to expect something that is in reality very expensive, should be free somehow........

But in IAS's idealistic world of ain't never going to happen.. The fundamental issue is people have lost sight of the concept behind insurance. Insurance should exist to protect you against devastating and unexpected loss, not to manage every tiny aspect of whatever is insured. Homeowners insurance will cover you if your house burns down but if need new carpet or a new roof you pay out of pocket. Homeowners insurance is affordable. What would it cost if it covered clogged drains, carpet stains, maid service, toilet paper, cleaning supplies, yard work and everything else? No longer affordable. Car insurance covers you if you wreck the thing or it gets stolen but you are completely on your own for tires, car washes, oil changes, brakes and everything else. What would car insurance cost if it covered EVERYTHING.

Health insurance 'should' be the same. Take a guy like me. Figure I 'probably' wont take a huge medical hit in the next 10 years but who knows. Figure I could take a $10,000 hit and it would suck but wouldn't ruin my life or nothing. So, if I paid 100% of everything under $10,000 and have a reasonably low probability of not exceeding the $10,000 but 'might'. I'm thinking it should not cost that much to insure me against truly devastating loss AND I will most definitely get ALL my routine care for many times cheaper paying out of pocket than any HMO or government ever could. Index the deductible to income with some subsidies (but not total) for the truly poor. Throw in some crappy government welfare hospital in ghetto neighborhoods so no bums are dying in the streets. Voila, just cut health costs 400% or more.

But, ain't never going to happen. Because people think it should all be free.

I agree it is actually counterproductive to have a low-deductable policy if you can afford to pay out-of-pocket for everyday non-catastrophic health care. Indeed, that is why many of the self-employed have HSA-qualified health care insurance, with deductibles of a few thousand dollars. And quite a few of us don't expect to get everyday health care virtually for free, or even bother to deal with getting reimbursed for small things.

However, the car analogy is not a particularly good one, or, at least, misses the mark by some degree. If someone is poor, and can't afford a car or its upkeep, they don't buy one, or, at least they shouldn't. If they are desperate for transportation maybe they buy a piece of junk and hope it works for awhile.

However, those who are poor do not have the option to decide to hell with health care, or at least they shouldn't be forced to be without health care owing to the fact they are not wealthy folk like IAS apparently is (and most particularly their children shouldn't be so forced).

Moreover, even if only catastrophic health care insurance were available, the insurance companies in the absence of strict government regulation would play the same games they now play. The horror stories about them canceling policies when an insured gets ill are not about them canceling policies of those who go to the doctor's office a couple too many times to see whether they have the flu. These horror stories are about the insurance companies failures to behave themselves towards those with catastrophic illnesses and consequent health care costs. Or similarly, refusing to insure babies who are borne with pre-existing conditions, or their families.

Yeah, some people may think all health care should be free irrespective of one's circumstance. But that is not the underlying problem with our health care system, not by a mile.

(Message edited by laguy on March 25, 2010)

(Message edited by laguy on March 25, 2010)

Blah, blah, blah, IAS. The tactic of building a straw man version of what HCR is and does is tiring. It ain't free for anyone. And a "$10,000 hit" is trivial compared to what can happen to you. HC costs are the single largest cause of bankruptcy filings, and often those costs are in the hundreds of thousands.

Next time, though, go to a private doc to get treated for STDs. Seriously, if you are so opposed to a public system, please don't use one. It's always your choice to go totally private

You guys always think you have me on the ol' "well you go to the public STD clinic" thing. When in fact it illustrates my point (even if you don't get my point) about the massive waste of gobernment health care . Problem. My wiener hurts. Solution, well if I were paying and if it were a free country, I know exactly what the problem is and exactly what would solve it. Going to Walmart would yield a $10 pill that would make my wiener stop hurting. So left to my own devices it is a $10 problem with zero burden to anyone but me and a small profit for Walmart. But I cannot do that because it is against the law for Walmart to just sell me the pill. Choice 2, if left to my own devices with the added obstacle of my government banning me from directly buying the pill I know will make my wiener stop hurting. I go to TJ and buy the pill or mail order it from India or preemptively stock up in some other country. This increases my inconvenience quite a bit but now it is just a $5 problem instead of a $10 problem. Choice 3. I have insurance. It costs ME $5 to see the doctor and $5 for the pill I know he is going to give me. I have no clue what my doctor charges the my insurance company but I am sure it must be $150-$250 or more. I have no idea what my insurance costs the company I work for but I am sure it is quite expensive. Anyway, problem solved for $10 for me and undoubtedly hundreds of dollars out of "the system" that would be better spent buying some insulin for a starving orphan or something. Whole process is considerably more inconvenient and aggravating to me. or Choice 4. Go to the government clinic. Probably cost the tax payers hundreds of dollars for me to visit but it is not like I get a discount on my taxes if I don't go. Free to me out of pocket. I know all the wang inspector nurses down there and if I am forced to have my wang inspected to get the pill I need then they are good i ones to do it. So since there is no personal incentive for me to save money and no disincentive built into the system for me not to waste money and their are legal obstacles to me taking the cheap and easy method. The incentive is to choose the way that throws away hundreds of tax dollars. I know it is a bad idea but the decision is really made for me. Thus the fabulous public health care system has turned a $10 problem with zero impact on anyone but me into the waste of hundreds of of tax dollars, but what do I care. It's free to me. That's the problem. You guys say "well why don't you make a stand based on principal, when in fact I have no principals, am not going to fight the system and will try to spin ANY system, however fucked up it may be to my maximum benefit.

Sancho, your assumption is that you know exactly what's wrong with you, and that you know exactly what to do to treat it. While most of us would say "my dick is burning after I fucked 10 hookers, I must have the clap" and take what's current for the clap, we will most likely be correct but not always 100%. And, while I may be able to diagnose a drippy dick after barebacking half a beer bar's whores, I can't really self-diagnose cancer or heart disease or a stroke or anything like that.

Your idea though that by using the system you hate you are making a statement is about the same as an asshole who goes to a reception and grabs up half the food, sits down and eats. It's bad form and everyone who knows about it will think you're a douche. It's sociopathic behavior. "Gee, I won't get caught and no one will tell me no so even though I could pay for it, I'll mooch for free and not worry about others".

You sound like a true Republican. Bitch about something, then go right out and use it. Actually, you sound like a con, which you are, not specifically Republican but just like every other criminal who, in their mind, is doing as much as they can without getting caught.

Joe Biden said it right for a change..."This is a big fucking deal" they are fucking us like do do most everything else.


If you libs think this Health Care deal is so great...why aren't you demanding the the Congress give up their Health Care plan and used the same plan they are forcing us to pay for if we want it or not! Just answer that without your liberal spin!

I sincerely apologize to everyone in the waiting room at the STD clinic if my uncouth behavior has offended any of the more upstanding members of the STD afflicted community.

Beachman..explain to me the health care plan the government is forcing us to pay for.

Here is what changes for me, nothing. I had health insurance through my employer last Friday I have the exact same plan through my employer today. I will have a new tax that was imposed waived because I have health insurance. My company won't be required to pay a new tax because they provide insurance to their employees.

Actually the system that IAS suggests is exactly the way it works in Brazil. Another good example is Viagra/Cialis/etc.

How much cost have we placed in our system just because there is a large market for pills that make our dick hard?

In Brazil, all of that stuff is over the counter.

BT,
We haven't placed much cost on the system for boner pills because very few insurance companies cover them. A survey was done less than a year ago, and only a small number of cadillac plans do so. The cost we have placed on our system is the doc trip to get a prescription, but most guys do that in the course of a visit scheduled for other purposes, so it's no big deal. However, the out-of-pocket costs are higher if you buy in the States, for no apparent reason.

IAS say "when in fact I have no principals"

I wonder if he has any principles...

Alas, I was poor when I was a kid so I am the product of the California public school system therefore I dont rite tue gud.

B_d
I would be remiss in my solemn right wing fear mongering duties if I did not take this opportunity to spread the baseless rumor that Obamacare is now providing free Viagra at the taxpayers expense to the millions of sex offenders who have been released unsupervised from prison early since the democrats took over.

Knockneedman-

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748703312504575141642402986422.html

IAS- I'm a product of the same schools And the Viagra program you mention is only a demonstration program taking place in the San Diego area.

Beachman; Sounds like Verizon is using the same excuse that FedEx used to screw their employees over. Verizon is using scare tactics to blame congress, when in fact Verizon sees this as a way to cut costs. FedEx did the same exact thing two years after congress passed the pension reform act. They came out and said that following the law was going to be too expensive, and froze all the traditional pension benefit programs.

That is why I tell people to ship with UPS, because as a union company they still provide their employees the best pension and health benefits in the transportation industry.

The bottom line here is money. Greedy companies without ethics will always try to take advantage of the employee, and the best protection is a union contract!

Union company...like GM....Government Motors!


Why don't you union people pool your own financial resources and start your own companies and put the companies you work for out of business....our you afraid to take the risk!

You guys are the only reason these companies are who they are.....what do you need mangement for?
The are awayls screwing you...what do you need them for....just pool your resources and start your own compay....I am sure Obama will give you the money and have the wealthy pay for it ...like GM Government Motors!

I had a dream Admin accidentally deleted this thread and woke up with cum stained sheets...

It is all under -Off-Topic-: -Politics: We're just playing. No one should take it to seriously. Every last one of the leftie crowd I've met in person are all genuinely great guys. Not a bad thing to say about any one of them personally. Debating politics is like arguing about sports. Sometimes your team wins, sometimes you have a bad season but everyone should still be able to enjoy a beer together after the game. (OK, so occasionally there is a riot after the game, again, much like politics)

For the record though, I do in fact stand in solidarity with my FedEx Union brethren in their struggle against evil management. As for buying their own company,,,, isn't that what UPS employees did? Or at least a good chunk of it.

Let me tell you about the National health in the UK, i needed an operation, so first they put me on a waiting list which could be up to 6 months, then they go for the cheapest and you have to have a relative or friend take you home after.

So i ask about the same operation in Thailand,i only have to wait a week, you stay one day in the hospital and after you can go home on your own.

General Motors did not go under because of the auto workers union. They go into trouble because GM decided to get into the banking and home loan business, plus they made crappy ugly cars like the Pontiac Aztec. So don't go around trying to blame the blue collar workers for poor decisions made by overpaid executives.

Answer this. If the union killed GM then why is Ford doing so well?

I can bring some of my redneck buddies over here and stir up a 17 page, heated, angry, Ford vs Chevy dispute.

Hey Roadglide, I love my Aztek! It looks like a Star Trek shuttlecraft...which works for me.

(OK, not the first time I've heard this criticism...)

Guam may tip over...another liberal theory...an extension of the global warning religion! Another great Democratic hero...Hank Johnson!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNZczIgVXjg

Another great Democratic Congressman...doesn't care about the Constitution...doesn't know the difference between the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. There are two votes for Health Care that shouldn't have been allow. One who broke his sworn oath to uphold the Constitution and another (Hank Johnson who is mentally ill).

Posted in another place, in case you missed it--
__________________
Beachman "is still batting .000 for the past 5 years. and way below the Mendoza Line for the past 10 years.

He posted an extremely brief "trip report" covering a trip to Bangkok that contained no information...where he stayed, what venues he visited, etc. He did say he got a "haircut, pedicure, manicure, facial, foot massage, back and face massage all done at the same time for 2000 baht ($50)." If true, he paid more for those services than any person ever has in BKK. The report was far less credible than Masterbate's Jakarta opus!

Back in 2000 (yes, 10 years ago), Beachy made a couple of posts that implied he'd visited Costa Rica at some point, but the info he posted is stuff that's widely available in other places.

And in 2001 he seems to have made a trip to TJ, and may have been spotted by Blazers, although Beachy objected to Blazers description ("Woody Allen looking guy") and said girls have told him he looks like Tom Selleck, so maybe there hasn't been a mongering-related sighting of Beachy.

And that's the sum total of Beachy's mongering-related contributions.

For a guy who's been on CH since its early days, his contributions to the board are mind-bogglingly trivial."
_____________________

All I can add is Amen, brother! Beachman has contributed ZERO ZIP NADA NOTHING of value to this board in TEN FUCKING YEARS! That is astounding.

Looks like the liberals are losing the grip on power in this country.....

Got laid lately, Beachman? Been to one of the destinations covered by CH and want to tell us about it? If so, post away. If not, you're still boring and useless. It's been pretty pleasant around here without you.

That he did not post anything here for about six months made me think he had died or got committed to a mental institution or something. But apparently he was spending the last six months working on his latest brilliant post!

Obama.....hiding the facts from the people....and we thought only Republican Presidents hide the facts......

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101006/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gulf_oil_spill

Please...I implore my fellow CH members to just ignore Beachy and his off-topic posts. Let him have a conversation with himself. Don't rise to the bait, no matter how tempting it may seem. He thrives on attention of any sort, so don't reward him.

Kinda funny how when gas was about $4 a gallon when Bush was president and oil was nearly $150 dollars a barrel the Dems and the media were fit to be tied.


Now gas is $4 a gallon and the price of oil is under $100 a barrel and the Dems and the media is quiet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKdScVerrBU&feature=player_embedded

As much as I want to respond to this, I won't.....

(Message edited by copperfieldkid on May 17, 2011)