This is an extremely interesting discussion that some of us are pursuing in e-mail. I do not yet have the other posters permission so am just posting my latest post just yet.

I agree with you. What women want you to think they value IS NOT what they value with their actions. There is a fundamental conflict between their desired perception of themselves, and how they really act. Lets call it THE LIE.

Case in point: my secretary (I am an office peon) is happily married and outwardly normal. She knows I go to TJ and what I do there. I let this leak out because I am single and don't want women to think I am gay. I have even shown her some of the pictures. Well sometime later she starts asking me how big my penis is when no one could listen. I wrote down 7" on a post-it and handed it to her. I was somewhat intrigued and sprouted wood. She asked how big around. I said "would you like to feel it through my pants, I am not asking you to, but if you would like to it was OK with me." She said Yes. I stepped into her cubicle, like I was helping her with her PC. I held my pants to show the outline of my sideways erection. She giggled and haltingly placed her hand on it and GRABBED the shaft! Enough fun for that day so I went back to work.

A few days later she stopped me when I walked by and whispered to me: "remember [the event}, what you don't know is how horny that made me. I'm a slut and I want your cock. And I think I am going to get it. NO CONDOM!" I told her "I wasn't being a tease and just tell me when and where and how we could do this. I suggested a nearby motel."

Well it never happened. Good thing because one or both of us would have to leave the company. But that case so perfectly illustrates the dual modes of how they want to be perceived and how they act when the blood rush to their pubes.

On another note: I go to nude beaches, well I used to. There were a lot of attractive single chicks there that only wanted cock. No relationship. They were promiscuous, they didn't use condoms - actually disdained them. And they were not shy in letting me know. Even they would suddenly bring up sex. My conclusion is that those were HONEST women. And I have gone that route!

What I am getting to is that, in my opinion, the biological mode of women is SLUT! Fuck whoever you want to, and enjoy it. Further, I think that marriage, and the duality of their desired perception, and factual actions, is societally manufactured, based on thoughts and analysis, not on how, when and why blood flows to pubes in boys and girls. The big lie.

EC

Here is round one of this instance:

I was watching a documentary last night about women cheating, and the evolutionary biologics behind it. In short it was about apes: gorillas have small testicles and are monogamous, chimps have big nuts and party like drunken sailors. Humans are in between, but the girls like variety and shop for better sperm, marriage be damned. They claimed the shape of the human penis with a flange was an evolutionary adaptation to squeegie the last guys cum out before laying your own down for it to try to survive for the several days it can. One in 10 babys are not the children of their wives husbands.

Was this the TV program you posted about several months ago?

El Cabrio

yo,

interesting discussion....
i believe that women are more like us than we think. they just seem to be more discreet about things. a woman will take a look at a guy in public and we don't notice. BUT when we look a girl we ogle and try to get as much of that booty in our data bank as we can. (at least i do!)
however, women are into sex as much as us. i dated a girl at an all-womens college until this summer and spent alot of time at her campus. it was a trip, there were hardly any guys there except professors, employees, and guys "visiting" their girl-friends. girls there would look when guys walked by, like the way WE look when girls walk by. she told me that girls think about sex alot but usually don't talk about it. its just when they're around alot of girls they feel safe discussing and exposing certain aspects of their sexuality.

ask someone from bryn mawr about the "fuck truck" and they'll know what your talkin' about.

cs

Your actions could get you fired promptly in the USA - IF - and this is a big "IF" the woman chooses to use your mutually-agreed-upon amusement practices against you. You will be perceived as the sexually harrassing male...I've had some similiar office experiences under some amazing circumstances ( photo darkrooms, video editing bays, television control rooms, office parties, etc...) but women can and do invite the situation and then use it against you when it benefits them. Look at the Clinton-Lewinski thing - it started off with her showing him her "thong"...then to reciprocate, he showed her his "thang"...But when push came to shove, she squealed, even though she was trying to leverage her "sexual secret" into a big paying NYC gig with Revlon. You can bet your secretary has told some of her female office mates about your proclivities...

Krico's right--El Cabrio is likely cruising for trouble, messin' about in the office with gringas, no matter whether she's participating or not. An important thing to add to the discussion about female sexuality is cultural differences--i.e., because of a few decades of feminist indoctrination in the schools, media, etc., gringas see sex as almost totally about power, who has more or less of it in a sexual situation, so often even when they seem into it in the way that EC's officemate is, it's really all about something more political and less sexual for them. That is, they relish the opportunity, in certain situations, to come off as just as sexually adventuresome as American guys are, but they are VERY aware of how easy it is, because of this society's obsession with sexual harassment, to use that sexual stuff in crude power plays. In other words, HO HUM, BORRRRINNNNNGGG. Latin girls, like many other non-gringas, are in my experience very different. The creeping feminist plague hasn't settled in yet in their cultures, and, though the machismo of their cultures makes it sometimes more difficult for them to express their sexuality as openly as, for example, gringas seem to do (when, in fact, I think they're really flexing their political muscles), once they get revved up, it's all about big-time passion and nekkid bodies slappin' together like crazy, no inhibitions whatsoever, and no bullshit politics emerging just when you thought you were having a good time.

Or at least that's what this moron thinks.

Ritmo, I think you're right on. In the last 30 years American women have shunted the male sex drive and male sexual tendencies into a complex maze of laws designed to favor them and use that as a legal threat against males. I've seen, in one incidence, a bloated, beat-up 60-year-old woman accuse a newly-hired 50-something male of sexually harrassing her as a way of leveraging her soon-too-be-eliminated job position into a juicy golden parachute for herself. (It should've been a "golden shower"...).

Some of these older bags in "management positions" will go after younger guys and then once they have the least bit of evidence of "sexual harassment" in their favor, will use this as a power lever over the poor bastard and in some cases the entire company. I don't mind women using "pussy power" in the home or in a whorehouse...but they should damn well keep all that out of the workplace especially when they've lobbied for laws that work almost exclusively in their favor - just the threat of a sexual harassment lawsuit will bring a company to it's knees. In the past, yeah, maybe a woman had to give a blowjob to keep her job, but now they can blow the whole company - straight to hell.

Virtually all, if not literally, all of these women, wouldn't have houses to live in, food to eat, office buildings to go to, highways to drive on, or transportation to take'em to their goddam positions of erzatz power if it weren't for the men who built the buildings and the highways, developed the fuel industry, built the lines of supply for oil, dug up the coal, mined the metals, designed and built the mass production lines modern industry, designed and built the automobile, built and worked the steel mills, made the scientific dicoveries, built the railroads, ships and jet planes, the hydroelectric dams, designed and exploited the electric motor, built the communications lines, put the satellites into orbit, got their asses kicked in all four corners of the earth and across all seven seas... Man, don't get me goin'...'cause when I wake up in the mornin' and walk out my front door, I look around and I see right in front of my face, that this is a man's world.

These office broads oughta get a gig in Adelita's...then they'd truly know the meaning of the saying, "A woman's work is never done..."

KRICO

Finally an interesting topic. I saw that program on the Discovery channel too. Awesome stuff. See many people think that guys are the sleazy or scandalous one. Not true. How does the old saying from the South go? "People always think that it's the brother that wants to fuck this sister, when in reality it's the sister who wants to fuck the brother." Most girls are sex freaks the key is getting them to open up about it.

What was it in the program? Something like A group of girls/females/chicks whatever, was asked have you ever had sex with another male other than your partner with in five days of having sex with your partner. The answer was yes and by such a high percentage that there was something in me as a male that felt deeply disturbed, some thing that made a profound change in the way I perceive chicks, like you cheating sluts.

It was a good show. Nice topic EC

Don't kid youselves, sex is ALWAYS about power. Women just understand that better than men.

Lerkher,
Just don't agree at all, brother. I think you've bought into the same post-60s poison about sexuality from the political far left that the feminists have.

One of the current debates in evolutionary biology hits on precisely the point being discussed here: are males and females actually "different" from an evolutionary standpoint, or are these perceived differences simply the result of cultural and individual upbringing. Some "experts" go so far as to claim that human sexual behavior is essentially "male", and that liberated females will behave like men sexually, while others, including most feminists, claim it's the other way around.

My own opinion, based on reading a lot of books on evolutionary biology and some fifty years of personal observation, is that the differences between men and women are in their genetic hardwiring, not just in cultural adaptations. I say this because I've come to accept that men and women don't just take a different cultural approach to sex (i.e., the old "double standard"). Rather, women seem to be incapable of intuitively understanding male sexual motivation/conduct and vice-versa (Men are from Mars, women from Venus, etc). Women are truly clueless about philandering males, pornography, prostitution, the so-called male "roving eye", and male reactions to female appearance, just to give a few examples. They ascribe all sorts of moral labels to male conduct in these areas, but they have no real conception about how strong, how frequent, and often how indiscriminate, the male sexual urge to arousal can be. (Note to myself: It's been five weeks since I've been to TJ and the rather tame lingerie ads in the LA Times are looking really good.) This is exactly what you would expect if males and females have evolved based upon different evolutionary strategies.

And it's clear that we do have different evolutionary strategies. As dictated by their biology, women can only be sexually receptive for fertilization every couple of years, so the average number of offsprings for human females during their reproductive years is only 4-5 children. Since most of the female's time is spent actually rearing those children, the best evolutionary strategy for females is threefold: obtain the best possible husband (not necessariy the fittest genetically) who will invest the most time and resources in helping to raise the offspring; get fertilized by the fittest available male (always taking into account risk; there are estimates that one in seven children born to a couple is not the biological child of the "father"); and maximize the return on sexual favors bestowed (this needs to further comment).

The male strategy is different, again based on biological reality, in this case the reality that males need only devote a few minutes, maybe even a few seconds, of resources to the female in order to pass on their genes. So males can maximize their reproductive success by trying to fertilize as many women as possible while devoting as little resource to each as he can get away with.

As several researches in this field have pointed out, it would be counter-productive to the female's strategy for women to be aroused by the sight of males or to be indiscriminate in bestowing sexual favors. Consequently, women were not selected to be easily aroused or to be sexually indiscriminate. This does not mean women don't enjoy sex or don't get aroused when they have finally decided to bestow sexual favors. They obviously do. But the bottom line is still that women dictate and men compete for sexual opportunities.

But let's not confuse the female's enjoyment of the activity once the decision to have sex has already been made, with the actual decisionmaking process itself, which involves criteria that are unique to women and foreign to men, i.e., whether having sex with a particular male furthers one of their evolutionary strategies.

Most evolutionary biologists agree that the "standard equipment" for humans is designed for the savannas of Africa and a hunting and gathering society during the Pleisticene age. Since that age ended about 9,000 years ago, only 300 generations have elapsed, far too little time for evolution to have any significant effect on humans.

Although we live in a very different world now (cultural adaptation happens much more rapidly than evolutionary adaptation), we are still operating from the same genetic blueprint for sexuality that our distant ancestors used. We can override our genetic programming through individual choice or adhering to societal norms and morals, but our genes are still in the background urging men and women to fulfill our separate evolutionary strategies.

Sorry I've rambled so much. I don't mean to sound preachy or pedagogical. It's just a subject I'm fascinated with and I wanted to add to the discussion. Take it for what it's worth.

Matiz, Thank you for your contribution here.

However, one sentence of yours struck me.

"But let's not confuse the female's enjoyment of the activity once the decision to have sex has already been made, with the actual decisionmaking process itself, which involves criteria that are unique to women and foreign to men, i.e., whether having sex with a particular male furthers one of their evolutionary strategies."

I do not think this "decision" is made in a logical or cognitive sense like men would like to think. Putting it more bluntly, I have no idea what can suddenly make a woman hot - but I know from experience it happens. Public nudity at nude beaches is an example of an enhanced environment. No logic going on there. Just Naked day in the sun building hornyness. And when they want it, they want it (and get it from my perspective). Try a new thrill - take a recent divorcee home from a beach and hold on!!

I do not think they ponder "should I do it with him?" Rather I think it is an emotional case of "I want some of that!" And blood rushing to where ever their blood rushes to.

Another thing, those people writing books are not getting laid as much as the behaviors they ponder and write about.

Thanks for contributing, and I have a great respect for your command of the English language.

EC

Matiz,
Great, uh...report. This is a fascinating subject, but I think there are "depth factors" involved that transcend rational analysis ( which maybe someday will be articulated ---and maybe you'll be the guy to do it). One notion I've been toying with lately is the notion that we men actually make women, (and they unconciously know it...hence they keep coming to us for stuff) in that we determine the sex of the child. A woman's egg is neutral in terms of creating sex...we guys are the bomb. We create the schizm of sex by creating women. That old Adam's rib thing is an apt metaphor.
Anyhow, I enjoyed your dissertation...
KRICO

Ritmo - Point of clarification: the secretary was not a GRINGA. I WOULD NEVER DO THAT for all the reasons you mentioned.

EC

One of the great moments in movie history: the scene in Something About Mary where the guy's friend tells him to jack off before going on the date so as to be in that brief period of clarity after you get off but before you get horney again.

I have often wondered what we as men would be like if there was a switch where we could instantly turn off the sex drive for any particular period of time? Too much of our behavior is based on attracting females and it often leads us to do very foolish things. And women have no qualms about taking advantage of that.

The man always pays. Always. The only real questions is whether he pays up front or over the long term.

Getting back to the on/off switch notion I am reminded of the bitter jokes as to the real value of a woman. You know, if they didn't have tits or a pussy what would they be good for?

One last idea to toss out in the vein of who we really are as men and women. We are told that as men we judge ourselves by our possessions and lack the ability to get in touch with our feelings. And that women judge things by their internal "goodness".

Well, I don't know. After spending the morning at the new local mall (Nordstrums, Macys, et al) I am reminded once again that women are actually the creation of what others say and feel about them. Far from being creatures who could role for "The Beauty and the Beast" they are more a composite of purely external entities. They are what they wear and what they carry as accessaries and how others (IE, women) relate to that. Men don't have bad hair days or any of the other hysteria because someone criticised their clothes or the way their dining table looked compared to the picture at the checkout stand in the women's magazines.

If you take away all the external appearances from a women what does she have left of herself? Nothing really becuase she has never stood on her own as a unique individual. She is what she carries and how she is seen, and envied, by other women. A man may lack the ability to release many of his emotions but he does have the ability to "stand" alone on who or what he is. Criticise me too much and eventually I will tell you to fuck off. As a man I don't need your validation to sustain my existence.

Rounding Professor TFs monologue today I'll just note that we are much more complicated as men and women, and individuals, than society portrays. Too much of our life is predicated on beliefs or behaviors that often don't really work but no one is willing to call the Emperor naked. Men don't want to know what women are really like because that would only show them how stupid so much of their behavior toward women really is and, ultimately, force them to maybe get in touch with their "feminine side". And since other men aren't about to support the guy who takes this route and women only redicule him (unless he is a stud to start with) most men just keep playing the same game. And women have zero interest to admiting what is real since they would derive no benefit at all to themselves.

Thank goodness for places like TJ.

ElCabrio,
NOW I'm witcha, my brother!

TO WOMEN EVERYWHERE FROM A MAN WHO'S HAD ENOUGH

Learn to work the toilet seat. If it's up, put it down. We need it up,
you need it down. You don't hear us bitching about you leaving it
down.

If you won't dress like the Victoria's Secret girls, don't expect us
to act like soap opera guys.

If you think you're fat, you probably are. Don't ask us. We refuse to
answer.

Don't cut your hair. Ever. Long hair is always more attractive than
short hair. One of the big reasons guys fear getting married is that
married women always cut their hair, and by then you're stuck with
her.

Birthdays, Valentines, and Anniversaries are not quests to see if we
can find the perfect present yet again!

If you ask a question you don't want an answer to, expect an answer
you don't want to hear.

Sometimes, we're not thinking about you. Live with it. Don't ask us
what we're thinking about unless you are prepared to discuss such
topics as navel lint, the shotgun formation, or monster trucks.

Sunday = Sports. It's like the full moon or the changing of the tides.
Let it be.

Shopping is not a sport, and no, we're never going to think of it that
way.

When we have to go somewhere, absolutely anything you wear is fine.
Really.

You have enough clothes.

You have too many shoes.

Crying is blackmail.

Ask for what you want. Let's be clear on this one: Subtle hints don't
work. Strong hints don't work. Really obvious hints don't work. Just
say it!

We don't know what day it is. We never will. Mark anniversaries on the
calendar.

Peeing standing up is more difficult. We're bound to miss sometimes.

Most guys own three pairs of shoes. What makes you think we'd be any
good at choosing which pair, out of thirty, would look good with your
dress?

Yes and No are perfectly acceptable answers to almost every question.

Come to us with a problem only if you want help solving it. That's
what we do.

Sympathy is what your girlfriends are for.

A headache that lasts for 17 months is a problem. See a doctor.

Foreign films are best left to foreigners.

Check your oil.

It is neither in your best interest nor ours to take the quiz
together.

No, it doesn't matter which quiz.

Anything we said 6 months ago is inadmissible in an argument. All
comments become null and void after 7 days.

If something we said can be interpreted two ways, and one of the ways
makes you sad or angry, we meant the other one.

Let us ogle. We're going to look anyway; it's genetic.

You can either tell us to do something OR tell us how to do something
but not both.

Whenever possible, please say whatever you have to say during
commercials.

ALL men see in only 16 colors. Peach is a fruit, not a color.

If it itches, it will be scratched.

Beer is as exciting for us as handbags are for you.

If we ask what's wrong and you say "nothing," we will act like
nothing's wrong. We know you're lying, but it's just not worth the
hassle.

What the hell is a doily?

TO WOMEN EVERYWHERE FROM A MAN WHO'S HAD ENOUGH

Learn to work the toilet seat. If it's up, put it down. We need it up,
you need it down. You don't hear us bitching about you leaving it
down.

If you won't dress like the Victoria's Secret girls, don't expect us
to act like soap opera guys.

If you think you're fat, you probably are. Don't ask us. We refuse to
answer.

Don't cut your hair. Ever. Long hair is always more attractive than
short hair. One of the big reasons guys fear getting married is that
married women always cut their hair, and by then you're stuck with
her.

Birthdays, Valentines, and Anniversaries are not quests to see if we
can find the perfect present yet again!

If you ask a question you don't want an answer to, expect an answer
you don't want to hear.

Sometimes, we're not thinking about you. Live with it. Don't ask us
what we're thinking about unless you are prepared to discuss such
topics as navel lint, the shotgun formation, or monster trucks.

Sunday = Sports. It's like the full moon or the changing of the tides.
Let it be.

Shopping is not a sport, and no, we're never going to think of it that
way.

When we have to go somewhere, absolutely anything you wear is fine.
Really.

You have enough clothes.

You have too many shoes.

Crying is blackmail.

Ask for what you want. Let's be clear on this one: Subtle hints don't
work. Strong hints don't work. Really obvious hints don't work. Just
say it!

We don't know what day it is. We never will. Mark anniversaries on the
calendar.

Peeing standing up is more difficult. We're bound to miss sometimes.

Most guys own three pairs of shoes. What makes you think we'd be any
good at choosing which pair, out of thirty, would look good with your
dress?

Yes and No are perfectly acceptable answers to almost every question.

Come to us with a problem only if you want help solving it. That's
what we do.

Sympathy is what your girlfriends are for.

A headache that lasts for 17 months is a problem. See a doctor.

Foreign films are best left to foreigners.

Check your oil.

It is neither in your best interest nor ours to take the quiz
together.

No, it doesn't matter which quiz.

Anything we said 6 months ago is inadmissible in an argument. All
comments become null and void after 7 days.

If something we said can be interpreted two ways, and one of the ways
makes you sad or angry, we meant the other one.

Let us ogle. We're going to look anyway; it's genetic.

You can either tell us to do something OR tell us how to do something
but not both.

Whenever possible, please say whatever you have to say during
commercials.

ALL men see in only 16 colors. Peach is a fruit, not a color.

If it itches, it will be scratched.

Beer is as exciting for us as handbags are for you.

If we ask what's wrong and you say "nothing," we will act like
nothing's wrong. We know you're lying, but it's just not worth the
hassle.

What the hell is a doily?


SOMETHING FUNNY I GOT IN MY EMAIL.

Ritmo:

Bro, you are looking at my statement in a much too narrow context. There is no one on the planet less receptive to feminista propaganda than I.

Lerkher,
Understood and right on. Didn't mean to accuse you of being a feminist! (better ANYTHING than that) But it just seemed the idea of sex = power is one of the ideas that comes out of the whole 60s'70s radical left 'everything is political' groove--you might be doing something else with it, and I'm all ears to hear more. Me, I maintain some feeble hope that somewhere there is sex as poetry, sex as religious mysticism, no room at all for power trips and political games. And I think I've had that once or twice in my life--but say more, my brother!

"...the bottom line is still that women dictate and men compete for sexual opportunities."

And the unspoken consequence is that "women do the choosing". Even in la zona a guy can get sex by paying, but to get "especial" (special) the guy has to "woo" the woman. She'll decide whether you get especial or not.

Regards,
RickFeliz

Interesting stuff, all. The thought I keep coming back to, however, is that I LOVE BIG TITS!

And now back to our scheduled program.

Taxibob,
Brilliant.

Ritmo:

As long as you want to interact with another human being, you better get used to "power trips and
political games". Goes with the territory. If that other human being is a girl, that's the least of the minefields. If she has something you want (& they all seem to don't they) the politest description of what's going on is a negotiation.

As this discussion thread seems to be talking about, women are better equipped to maintain a more objective approach to the whole process when it comes to sex. Not just intuitive, biological. If the guy doesn't come prepared (or even understand the game) he's gonna get killed. Women are born with the weapons of control, men have to do a lot of work to keep up. Power is about getting what you want.

Bargain hard my friend.

Lerk,
I see what you're saying, and agree to a certain point. Certainly lots of human interaction is about conflict and competition for scarce resources and all that--with ya so far. I just don't buy that this is the ultimate fact to which ALL human interaction can be reduced. It's the old argument in philosophy about whether all acts are self-interested or are there some altruistic acts--the guys who argue for all acts as self-interested and egotistical (that is, about getting your way against others) never have any very convincing argument in hard situations except to redefine the situation in some way so as to make the situation about self-interest by definition. A good example--I once read an excerpt on something about Mother Theresa, in which a couple of scholarly types were trying to make a case that her action should be defined as most essentially rationally self-interested, that is, about getting HER way and not about serving others or whatever, because she was aiming at her own salvation. This much is true in a sense, but misses the larger point--which is that she explicitly rejected much more popular models of self-interested behavior precisely in order to spend time doing altruistic things for others--that there was a personal benefit in that she felt good about that, or believed she was going to heaven as a result, doesn't eliminate that fact.

Same thing is going on, in my view, when we talk about power and sex--are the people involved trying to 'get their way,' to 'bargain hard,' as you say? Sure, in some sense, at least. The people involved want something--pleasure, maybe, or security, or whatever. The problem with the 'power is everything' model is that it sees no possibility for the compatibility of two people's goals--for that model, they both simply want control of the other, or of something else that the other person also wants to control, and so we're in an agonistic relationship from the start. But I have lived too many situations in which, for example, it would have been VERY easy for a woman to manipulate me and the situation in very selfish directions, and it didn't happen. Instead, there was something of a mutual understanding that what we were involved in wasn't combat, or even market-place bargaining, but something else. Not trying to say this is the rule, but just to save a little place for it there in the midst of all the conflict.

"reciprocal altruism"

The most useful strategy between two human beings. I do something for you that costs me less than the value to you and in return you reciprocate - you do something for me that is more value to me than the cost to you. Also why almost all economists agree that free trade increases the availability of resources for everyone involved. Or as my amiga especial says "mejor para ambos" (better for both).

Regards,
RickFeliz

"reciprocal altruism"

Win win is an admirable goal and one that probably best advances society as a whole. I just wish that someone would explain that to cultures that seem to enjoy screwing people in business negotiations (arabs, jews, and hindus are a few that come to mind based on repeated personal experiences).

Of course, if Win Win was what our own society really believed in than nice guys wouldn't finish last. Maybe what is needed is the belief on the part of each side that they are somehow getting a better deal than what they could accomplish alone. But then, if that was the case, no one would ever masturbate.

Maybe it's time to call it a day.

"reciprocal altruism"

I agree that it's important to be selective in who you play the game with. Some people understand it and some don't. But two or more people all playing the game are a dynamite combination!

Regards,
RickFeliz

Ritmo:

Heading into a discourse on human nature. Kinda beyond the scope of this exercise, but ok. I'm afraid I'm one of those nasty cynical bastards without much faith in altruism.

Control in any relationship (2 or 200) is never exactly equal. Selfishness and control doesn't have to mean she cleans out your bank account and kills your dog. It can be as simple as who always takes out the trash.

The majority of my experience is with American women. There always seems to be a very high price to be paid in dealing with any of them, and it usually comes up front. I can't remember any instance of personal interaction (including things much less intense than sex) where I didn't have the vague, or not so vague, feeling that she thought she was doing me a favor (I'll save the discussion about feminism for another time). This process, of course, allows her to feel very good about herself (desirable, desired, attractive, in control, etc). The price is my self respect. If we ever get to an intimate relationship it only gets worse. At that point it seems impossible to ever get my money's worth. I finally experienced this phenomenon often enough that I simply don't feel American women are worth the trouble. A $100 all-expenses-covered excursion to TJ is a tremendous bargain in comparison.

Everyone's experiences are different. You are certainly entitled to a different attitude. Hope springs eternal.

Brother Lerk,
We aren't all that far apart on this, in fact. I recognize what you're pointing out is REAL, 'cause I've been there lots of times too--I simply think that MUCH of that dynamic is specific to certain Western (and especially estadounidense) women post-radfeminism (that is, roughly since the 1960s). Just about every interaction I've had or have with gringas works more or less as you described--and the result has been I have as little interaction with them as I possibly can, and haven't even attempted to be in any kind of intimate relationship with one in over 10 years. When I spoke before of my experiences with women in which control and power wasn't the central issue, I was speaking ENTIRELY of experiences with non-gringas (Latinas, Europeans--mostly southern rather than northern, where they're too much like gringas, Asians, a few Africans). That's the sole difference in what we're saying, I think. Feminism has given birth to most of the sex = power shit, and where feminism ain't, there's still at least the chance to find other things in relationships with females. And even though I'm mostly talking about non-paying, i.e., 'normal' relationships here, I would guess this distinction shows up in the paying kind too--though I don't know that as I've never paid a gringa for sex (well, to be more precise, I've never paid a gringa prostitute for sex--I agree with you that in nearly all 'normal' relationships with gringas, you're paying for it too, and often much more, 'cause the coin is psychological torture + money rather than just money...).

Ritmo:

I bow to your superior experience. However, from my perspective of inexperience I believe women everywhere have more in common as women than nationalities/cultures make them different. They get pregnant, we don't, and they all resent it.

estadounidense ???

Brother Lerkher,
Estadounidense = UnitedStatesean, more or less. Brother Redongdo and I (we are ALL in the Universal Brotherhood of Whoremongers!) just talked about this on another thread--no good term in English exists to replace the inaccurate "American," which of course by definition means Mexican and Argentinian and Guatemalan just as much as it does 'people from the US,' so I just borrowed the Spanish. Sorry, should have explained.

I see what you're saying, bro, but actually think the pregnancy thing differs substantially culturally too--that is, where there ain't no feminist plague, the resentment of pregnancy and of men for not having to deal with it (or with periods) is not so much in evidence. I have for example NEVER had a gringa go crazy over the idea of having my child, for precisely what you mention, I think--that is, pregnancy for them would be too much of an evil intrusion into their schemes to dominate the corporate or whatever other occupational world they inhabit, and it would mean they'd be linked to me forever by some blood thing, whether they grew to hate me later or not (and all of them eventually DID grow to hate me!). By contrast, almost EVERY non-gringa (with the exception of some of the Europeans) I've ever been in an intimate relationship with has gone to the subject of having a child as soon as we had become physically intimate (i.e., were boning), and the task of keeping her from getting pregnant fell completely to me, as these girls would stop using the pill w/out telling me, encourage me to finish inside them (a tough bit of encouragement to reject, when you're in the heat of it, I'll tell you!). In other words, these girls WANTED to be pregnant, and in the fiercest way, and even if they knew it would mean they wouldn't be able to chase the corporate gold, or even if they knew there was a chance I wouldn't stick around. In cultures with a more traditional conception of gender roles, I think pregnancy is seen as a great gift, a miracle from God, a bond of love, rather than, in the dismal culture of total gender equality and uniformity in which we live, something to be hated for the way in which it purportedly prevents women from becoming President of the US.

Brother Ritmo,

Let us not forget our buddies to the north...Canadians eh?

Brother Red,
True, true. My list wasn't quite exhaustive!

Brother Ritmo,

How come I'm starting to feel like I'm turning Amish?

Good points Ritmo. Have you ever noticed that the hard core leaders of the feminist movement never seem to have any children of their own? I would go as far as to say that their almost hysterical support of "reproduction rights" is the result of their denial of their own biological being. They define pregnancy as a form of cancer.

I can remember back in the late 70s when the movement actually was still ridiculing women who had children and who had opted to be a stay home parent. There is to this day a very strong anti children aspect of the feminist movement. Let me rephrase that. Children are sort of OK, babies are not. The entire concept of a nuclear family is distasteful for many of these.....women(?)

Remember the sitcom in the White House when Hilary tried to tell the press how she loved baking chocolate chip cookies? You know, just a regular warm giving woman doing her thing. There is something missing from these women that is part of the human experience. And their hatred of their own reproductive systems is just part of something larger. I wonder how they will feel as they age and find themselves all alone in their world of bitterness and hatred?

At least we can go out and pay some hot young chica to relax with. Not even Duecebigalow would do some of these witches in NOW.

Tight Fit,

Thank you for your usual biting social commmentary. I mean that in the best possible way. I have several older fem siblings who fit what you describe to a "T". Educated, independant (what are they going to do with independance?) NO KIDS; but why does't little brother have any. Several years ago (actually 26 years ago when I was 14) I made a strong and pure decison that these fems, even if they were born to my parents, were never going to tell me what to do, or think. When I moved last, guess who didn't get the new address; of course the phone is unlisted as always.

And I have resilently rebounded to fuck any chica or gringa I want to without the leat bit of guilt. And when they (sibling bitches) die, I may or may not, wish to bless their last ground with my urine.

All these different views add to our individual abilities to focus.

My second favorite thing, an anti-feminist bitch session. You go guys.

Brother Red,
LOL--C'mon, didn't you ALWAYS want to be a member of a secret society? I'm sending out decoder rings to everybody next week.

Brothers TightFit, ElCab and Lerk:
We are of one great spirit! With strong warrior bros like you guys out there, I feel more confident that the harpies cannot win their wicked war. I can perhaps offer a little bit of an answer to Brother TightFit's questions as to what happens to these monstrous 'women' when they age, as I have the opportunity in my line of work to see lots of the most radical gringa feminists from the earliest generation as they are now reaching retirement age (i.e., those who ran around burning their bras w/Gloria Steinem and later 'converted' to lesbianism in order to 'crush patriarchy'). These women, in their 60s now, are far and away the most BITTER, ANGRY and LONELY creatures I've ever encountered--several of them will not even LOOK at me when we pass in the office, not because they know me and know I despise their worldview, but SIMPLY BECAUSE I AM A MAN = ENEMY. Their every sentence is sprinkled liberally with radfem bullshit of the most ludicrous kind--EVERYTHING, and I mean everything, always returns to one core fact, namely that women are the victims of men in all spheres of life and in every way and must destroy them in order to have their 'freedom.' It is a pathetic sight, and I fear it can only get worse in this culture, where women are from day one given the insane message that they CAN do everything if they want to, and if they don't manage to do so, it is by definition the fault of THE ENEMY, rather than the fact that YOU CAN'T DO EVERYTHING but must instead make choices. The only possible saving grace is that these miserable old hags are something less than a successful advertising campaign for young women, however feminist they might be--I have sometimes talked to younger gringas at work who are greatly troubled by the image of becoming an isolated, bitter, hateful, psychotic old bitch like some of our colleagues, and who might become interested in deprogramming and counter-ideological tactics on our part (i.e., giving them a good fucking and a baby or two!) as a way to avoid turning out like them. But the outcome isn't yet clear.

Let the rant continue, brothers!

Brother TightFit,
On the idea of pregnancy as a form of cancer, I have actually heard feminists use this language--the fetus as a kind of tumor, or a parasite, etc. There are in fact scholarly papers in which radfems construct whole philosophical arguments along these lines.

Ritmo wrote
"as I have the opportunity in my line of work to see lots of the most radical gringa feminists from the earliest generation as they are now reaching retirement age (i.e., those who ran around burning their bras w/Gloria Steinem and later 'converted' to lesbianism in order to 'crush patriarchy'). These women, in their 60s now, are far and away the most BITTER, ANGRY and LONELY creatures I've ever encountered--several of them will not even LOOK at me when we pass in the office, not because they know me and know I despise their worldview, but SIMPLY BECAUSE I AM A MAN = ENEMY."

I sometimes come into contact with similar women.You should see thier attitude after they have sucked down a few free cocktails and lost half thier paycheck to a video poker machine.It's downright scary.Also a scary thought is that a guy could be married to what seemed like a nice woman whose attitude could degenerate to a similar point as the afformentioned harpies.Some things could slow down a guys leaving such a mess such as children,fear of financial loss,ect.Just the thought of this is enough to make me believe that for me mongering along with getting what occasional freebees fall my way is a viable altenative to the potential pitfalls of wedded bliss.
Taxibob

A woman can give birth to a thing called a "benign teratoma". I've seen photos and illustrations of these phenomena in medical texts. Very creepy. Usually spherical or football-shaped, it is a deformed mass of skin, muscle, and bone parts, sometimes has hair follicles,and teeth! (Think "Alien"...in some stage of development). I told these facts to an incredulous feminist newscaster one time who angrily intoned upon my description of the teratoma, "Yes and they call it a man!"
Yes, the human female egg can develop on it's own ...but in a completely wayward and nonsensical manner. It's jizz that gives the order...and jizz-givers give the orders...

KRICO

Taxibob, I no longer drink nor earn a regular paycheck but I can relate to the addiction and sinking feeling of a bad run on a video porker machine.

For a while I was seriously attempting to earn part of my living by gambling. Not VP but in another game where you can also calculate statistically what your chances are for a good hand. I still have books and books on theory and practice, not to mention the casinos that continue to send me offers of free everything if I will only drop in for a while.

It is a horrible feeling to "know" you are due for a big one and yet still get slammed by Lady Luck. In video porker you have reached bottom when you are simply praying for 4 of a kind to bail you out of a deep hole. Or when you sneer at those who play the nickel or quarter machines because they lack the wherewithall to play with the big boys.

Harrahs Lake Tahoe (5 stars and then some) has a great sign as you enter from Harveys (major rip off joint): Not everyone can win all the time. Please bet only what you can afford to lose.

Tight Your chances on winning big are better on the nickel machines in video poker. The smaller the bet then the more bets are in a given budget. More bets equal greater chance of winning since a poker machine is a new deal every time. Good luck

694me, what you are discussing leads to something called Risk of Ruin. It is basically the odds of you lossing everything as opposed to winning.

One parameter of this is time. The longer you play in a game where the odds favor you the better chance you have of winning long term.

Another parameter is bet size as regards to your total "bank". There is a whole science for the math freaks that takes it to the last cent as to what your bet should be at any given moment.

Where things get interesting with VP are on the progressives when they reach a certain point. Not that this has ever done me a bit of good. Still, I gather that there are pros who will work in groups and hog an entire bank of machines once the jackpot reaches a certain level.

For what it is worth I once calculated that on a dollar machine that had a 100.5% return (possible in Vegas but that's about it) your hourly return would be about that of a wherehouse worker.

There is a lot of denial going on in casinos. More than what goes on in the world of paid sex I sometimes think.

Tight: problem with VP is that the machines redeal every time and the chance of hitting a progressive do not depend on where the machine is. I prefer to play real poker late at night when most tourists are drunk.

From CNN:

"Most states have policies like one in California to forbid "inquiries into the child's paternity that would be destructive of family integrity and privacy."

Shouldn't they just forbid wives adultery as "destructive of family integrity"?

Talk about disturbing laws! You have to pay alimony and support for children that aren't yours!

A recent study in Great Britain (released about 3 months ago) concluded that one out of seven children born in GB were fathered by someone other than the man who supposed he was the father...
No wonder they stone women to death who commit adultery in less developed countries...where resources are even more scarce...

KRICO