Since we are in the internet age when a grassroots idea might not be able to be ignored, this might have a chance. I am looking for ways to get as many people involved as possible.

Fixing the economy is pretty easy. We only need to do two things.

First: Government has gotten too big and bloated. All government workers, local, state, federal making over $50,000 should have the portion over $50,000 reduced by 10%. So if a worker is making $70,000 this means a $2,000 reduction.

Second: Shakespeare wrote a long time ago in Henry VI that "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers." I am not proposing that, but we need to limit their numbers. In Florida, about 1 of every 165 people over the age of 18 is a lawyer. What if we made it as hard to pass the bar (which I can tell you is very easy) as it is to pass the CPA exam (much harder, I can tell you that too)? And, what if the number of law licenses each year could not exceed the greater of CPAs, Medical or Professional Engineering licenses. And, what if we limited the number of law school graduates?

Health care is too high? Blame the lawyers. Insurance costs out of control. Ditto. All those transactional costs associated with owning real estate. Laywers. Getting a divorce. The lawyers love that. All they have to do is see how much they can make the parties hate each other. Stand back and both collect fees.

If we can get enough of the non-lawyers (and lawyers sympathetic to the cause) behind this, it cannot be ignored.

Maybe the Govt should reduce the standard 40-hour work week to 30-hours reducing salaries by 25%, then use the excess pay-roll to give others a job? I could still get by on a 30-hour work week.

I manage a labor contract. Tonight I instructed my project managers to stop all over-time. Nobody works more than 40-hours per week. I'm going to use all of the excess over-time to hire-in more people. I believe this is the right thing to do right now.

Just trying to do my part to make life better.

AJ

Alec,

That hasn't worked out too well for the French. Setting caps on labor hours just to boost hiring is incredibly inefficient and inflexible. And, keep in mind, most high-paying jobs aren't hourly anyways.

In bad times I guess it's inevitable people will blame the lawyers, or whatever other scapegoat they can think of. OTOH, our economy was doing just fine during the 1990's with just as many lawyers.

To the extent lawyers are responsible for the current problems, their responsibility is minimal. Lack of regulation (the antithesis of what lawyers do) was a much greater contributor to the present mess we are in. Rather than kill all the lawyers, perhaps we should kill all the Republicans.

Lawyers are the problem and it is time while we are getting a does of reality (like that $250,000 house never was worth $500,000) we start dealing with them. They are the boil on the butt of America.

The money the government is throwing around will not fix the problem. The key to solving any problem is to identify its root cause and deal with it.

As demonstrated by the statistics from Florida, there are a lot of people with an interest in the status quo. Why in the hell do we need so many lawyers? There is an old saying that has a lot of truth to it. There was one lawyer in town and he was starving. Then another lawyer came to town and they both got rich.

Lawyers add costs (by lining their own pockets) to every product we buy and service we use. Who makes money from all the class action suits?

It is time America wakes up. I, for one, am going to do my part to sound the alarm.

Exectalent,

I respectfully disagree with you regarding the lawyers. They are protecting their respective clients using the existing laws and courtroom procedures. [Operative words]: It is the legal system itself which allows cases to get drawn out thus increasing costs for everyone. Anytime you walk into a courtroom just look around and tell yourself that everyone in there from the bailiff, courtroom reporters, etc to the judge is on your paroll! The legal system needs to be entirely revamped to eliminate and minimize frivolous lawsuits. Look at what some juries have awarded for settlements; the infamous McDonalds hot coffee suit. Who is to blame there, certainly not the attorney who asked for the huge settlement and got it. The jury that gave it to him is to blame, and the system that allowed it. Think about it. Everyone asks for the moon, who's responsible for saying NO.

CFK

Oh, and a classic example of injustice, the O.J. Simpson trial........don't even get me started

CFK

But OJ is fucked now. Finally. What a fucking idiot. And I don't care that he was baited (set-up) by the dude who videotaped the whole thing. Even if by chance he didn't kill his wife and was unjustly accused and tried, I want him to go to jail for being so stupid to be armed at that memorabilia event.

AJ

One aspect of the McDonald's case rarely reported (or known by the public) is the judge reduced the punitive damages jury award to less than one-fifth of what the jury awarded. Also, the plaintiff had a legitimate case against McDonald's although it is easy to mis-characterize the case and make it seem trivial in much the same way Jundal sarcastically dismissed "volcano monitoring," or others blame the meltdown in the economy on lawyers (ignoring the meltdown has been global and has affected countries with significantly fewer lawyers than the U.S. at least as much as it has affected the U.S.).

For anyone who is interested, this link appears to provide a pretty good summary of what happened in the McDonald's case. http://www.hurt911.org/mcdonalds.html.

I'm not saying there are not problems with our legal system and some lawyers have contributed to these problems. I am saying that to blame the global meltdown on the high number of lawyers in the U.S. is mindless scapegoating.

(Message edited by LAguy on February 27, 2009)

Tort reform is needed. Eliminating lawyers is fucking retarded.

I think it is volcanoes that have been surreptiously ruining our economy. We need to keep a closer eye on them.

Lawyers could stand to be put in check a bit more though. Hombre lawyers exempted of course.

I like my coffee hot and complain if is not hot enough.

The economy will eventually right itself one way or another. Maybe I am living in a vacuum since my own finances are so solid lately but this does not 'feel' like anything much more than yet another ordinary business cycle type recession. You know, the kind that major economies around the world have been having every few years or so going back to Caesar’s Rome. They suck, but it's not like it should shock anyone that we have a recession.

It feels allot more to me like 1974 to me than 1929. The problem this time is clear. Many people were living high on credit. A Mercedes and a 60 inch flat screen for every house in the ghetto. Reality eventually set in. Collectively, lifestyles are being adjusted back down to realistic levels. This process will take some time but will run its course. Those who can work their way out of debt will do so in due time. Those who loaned their money to deadbeats with crap for collateral will lose there money and will need time to get back on their feet. Chase loaned my ex-wife $40,000 on credit cards when she hasn't held a job since 1992. Banks loaned the Lao girls and the Mexican gangbangers around here a half million any time they were willing to sign a piece of paper. Ask anyone. Loaning the Lao girls money is the same as giving them money. You will never see it again. Anyone could have told the banks that. My ex-wife, the Lao girls, the Mexican gangbangers, and the banks are all hating life now that the party is over but they will all get over it eventually.

Bailing them all out is contrary to reality and everyone working their way back around to their own personal reality is the only way this recession will end. That will simply take time. Probably a couple of years this time around but then life goes on.

Cat, nicely stated!

As for the economy, The Mother pig has landed. A rare glimpse, not often revealed by the media, of government beneficiaries looking to the Mother pig for their handout.

Usually the hue and cry for fewer frivolous lawsuits comes either from someone whose ox has been gored (doctors who commit malpractice, for instance, and don~t want to bear the financial consequences, or insurance companies) or from the general public who gets a twisted version of why a jury gave a lot of money to someone in a particular case.

Please remember it is disinterested jurors who usually give verdicts, not lawyers or judges. And the defense in those cases always has lawyers too, so unless they completely screwed the pooch in defending the case, the jury probably made the right decision.

One result of so-called tort reform in California is that a 6 year old who has been rendered a paraplegic by the negligence of a medical practitioner can only get $250,000 for pain and suffering for his entire life. If that´s an acceptable result of so-called reform I am against it.

Here is what happens when you don't have effective tort law or lawyers (and lawsuits) to contribute to enforcement of the rule of law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal.

Eliminate human greed and you can safely eliminate most of the lawyers. But good luck with that. In the meantime, don't let your kids lick their Chinese toys (and so on).

Hey LA Guy why don't you get back to me about US legal system >> Chinese legal system when Madoff is sentenced to death like those at fault in the Chinese toy paint and milk scandals. Well at least wait until the guys is sentenced to at least a day in jail. Yes I realize the difference between civil and criminal action here.

Here are the punishments dealt out so far in the China milk scandal from the wiki link you provided.


Sanctions
On 15 September, the company issued a public apology for the contaminated milk powder;[53] Sanlu was ordered to halt production, and to destroy all unsold and recalled products. Authorities reportedly seized 2,176 tons of milk powder in Sanlu's warehouses. An estimated 9,000 tons of product had been recalled.[54]

Tian Wenhua, Chairman and General Manager of Sanlu and Secretary of the Sanlu Communist Party chapter was stripped of her party and functional posts during an extraordinary meeting of the Hebei provincial standing committee of the CCP;[55] four Shijiazhuang officials, including vice mayor in charge of food and agriculture, Zhang Fawang, were reportedly removed from office.[56] Shijiazhuang Mayor Ji Chuntang resigned on 17 September.[57] Li Changjiang, minister in charge of the AQSIQ, was forced to resign on 22 September after the State Council inquest concluded that he was responsible for the "negligence in supervision". Investigators also blamed the Shijiazhuang government.[58] Local Party Secretary Wu Xianguo was fired on the same day.[59]


[edit] Arrests
Sanlu GM Tian was charged under Articles 144 and 150 of the criminal code.[60] A spokesman for the Hebei Provincial Public Security Department said police had arrested 12 milk dealers and suppliers who allegedly sold contaminated milk to Sanlu, and six people were charged with selling melamine. 300 kg of suspicious chemicals, including 223 kg of melamine, were confiscated.[61] Among those arrested were two brothers who ran a milk collection centre in Hebei for allegedly supplying three tonnes of adulterated milk daily to the dairy;[62] the owner of another collection centre which resold seven tons of milk a day to Sanlu, was arrested, and his operation was shut down.[17]

Zhang Yujun (alias Zhang Haitao), a former dairy farmer from Hebei, produced more than 600 tons of a "protein powder" mixture of melamine and maltodextrin from September 2007 to August 2008. He and eight other traders, cattle farm owners and milk purchasers who bought the powder from him were arrested in early October, bringing the total to 36.[63]

During the week of 22 December 2008, 17 people involved in producing, selling, buying and adding melamine in raw milk went on trial. Tian Wenhua, former Sanlu general manager and three other company executives appeared in court in Shijiazhuang, charged with producing and selling milk contaminated with melamine. According to Xinhua, Tian pleaded guilty, and told the court she learned about the tainted milk complaints from consumers in mid-May. She then apparently headed a working team to handle the case, but did not report to the Shijiazhuang city government until 2 August.[64]

The Intermediate People's Court in Shijiazhuang sentenced Zhang Yujun and Geng Jinping to death, Tian Wenhua to life in prison, on 22 January 2009.[65] Zhang was convicted for producing 800 tons of the contaminated powder, Geng for producing and selling toxic food. The China Daily reported Geng had knelt on the courtroom floor and begged the victim's families for forgiveness during the trial. The court also sentenced Sanlu deputy general managers Wang Yuliang and Hang Zhiqi to fifteen years and eight years in jail respectively, former manager Wu Jusheng to five years.[66]

Mx, thanks for the perspective.

The lesson: The condemned Chinese should have had better/more influential lawyers?

DUHHHHHH!

Porker I think the point is if you embarass China, then you die! Influential lawyers will not save you ass, as I am sure those sentenced to death were very wealthy and connected.

MongerX,

It is correct the Chinese legal system handed out a number of severe sentences in the tainted milk case. This, however, seems to have been aberrational and the defendants couldn't have in their wildest imaginations expected their behavior to end in this result; if they had any reason to believe the Chinese system would hold them accountable in this manner it strains credulity to think they would have done what they did. The extremely remote prospect they would be criminally charged did not deter the wrongdoers from their bad behavior. Bottom line, the milk scandal happened in a country that for all practical purposes does not provide meaningful civil remedies or civil penalties to those who suffer damages from wrongdoers. And the milk scandal was not at all an aberration, which also is not a coincidence.

I for one am against expanding government to the point where they would have a monopoly on deterring all wrongdoing by businesses through the criminal laws. Such a system is likely to lack the resources to adequately get justice in all cases of significant wrongdoing or deter the same. Moreover, such a system is particularly prone to corruption, as all evidence suggests it is in China. If one believes in checks and balances, and is against big government but also sees a need to prevent new milk scandals, I don't see any good alternatives to a system that provides for meaningful civil damages lawsuits.

The Chinese don't mess around. Punishment is harsh and swift. Thanks for that report MongerX.

Considering what Madoff did to so many people is extraordinary. I read somewhere that Madoff's crime (dollar value) was greater than all of the frauds, lareceny, robberies, embezzelment, etc., committed in the entire US for year or it possibly might have been more than a year (it has been a while since I read the article).

This really amazes me that this guy ruined so many people. He literally took wealthy people to their knees and into poverty.

I can easily cop and attitude of "so what" when a multi-millionaire or billionaire loses a few $100K or even $1M to crime. No biggie, because I know their lifestyle won't change. But in this particular case, people with millions and in one case a billionaire lost everything. All was taken. I am now wealtheir than most of these "rich" victims...and I'm by no means wealthy by middle American standards.

A few years ago when mutual fund scandal stories made the news I decided to sell all of my mutual funds (fortunately I didn't lose anything). But I did lose trust in all middlemen. I even fired my broker. Then using the liquidated funds from the mutual funds I bought stock through an on-line brokerage firm (by myself). A majority of my portfolio is blue-chips (MCD, PEP, JNJ, BDK, XOM) and a few smaller (but good companies). I also bought a few dogs, but that happens. I even bought BAC at $20 and ran it to $50. Now it is $3.72. Ouch!

Although the market is down, I am unwilling to sell. At this point I'm committed to ride this bastard into the ground, but like "I Am Sancho" I have to believe that eventually this mess will get turned around and I will regain some of my previous value back.

I don't think "lawyers" in general caused todays problems. I think unchecked greed got us where we are. The top dogs in the food-chain typically are type As with an unquencheable thirst for power and wealth. They are driven people. With nobody higher in the food-chain, there is nobody who can put them in check. I am even guilt as a stockholder to check "yes" to all of the questions on the proxy card (as recommended by the board). Why? because my few shares in comparison to the total outstanding shares was so tiny, that I knew my vote didn't matter. In many cases I never cast my vote.

However, since October 08 I learned a lesson. I will submit my proxy vote everytime denying huge bonuses and below market options for the corporate officers. Today, stockholders collectively are going to say no. I hope the future of this works out. Nobody deserves multi-million dollar bonuses. Nobody deserves salaries 100-500x greater than the average worker within the same company.

In all reality, nobody and I mean nobody deserves to earn gross amounts of money like they did in past. Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a socialist, but damn it, nobody has the right to suck the company coffers dry in-turn running OUR economy into the ground when all of the worker-bees get laid-off and consumer confidence slumps.

The "American Dream" no longer means anyone should make "AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE". Today the dream is to make a good and comfortable living. And if you are more fortunate than others, then I hope you contribute something of value to society to off-set. Simply because it is the right thing to do.

AJ

Getting to the Madoff point, the most relevant question there is how many people were knowingly involved in his crime. The milk scandal apparently involved a large number of wrongdoers who for business reasons decided it was okay to poison thousands of babies if not hundreds of thousands so long as it was profitable to do so. With Madoff, it appears an arguably crazy person (who admittedly might not have been subject to any sort of deterrent) swindled a number of others.

Sure, there are some people who cannot be stopped by anything, including civil lawsuits: Psychopaths, sociopaths, and so forth. I suspect Madoff fits in this category. In any case, this is much different from a web of businessmen working together in a profit-making scheme that poisons perhaps hundreds of thousands of babies.

Sorry, doesn't strike me as an apt analogy.

A few years ago Panama was hit by tainted cough syrup. Hundreds were confirmed killed and possibly many more unconfirmed (due to old age or other medical conditions). What happened was pharmacy lab workers knowingly cut sugar-free cough medicine with glycol or similar "anti-freeze" chemical to increase the volume and still maintain the sweetness. They obviously added too much to the point it became lethal. Again, greed comes into play.

AJ

Ok LA Guy so why doesn't your low expected probability of severe punsihment not work apply to Madoff and the history of financial scandals and fruad in the US? Of course the US is a land of strong civil laws. While I do agree that the expectation of actually receiving punishment does strongly influence criminal behavior, I think you fail to make that link to existing strong rights for civil action.

The fact is that China does hand out severe punishments when there is high visibility of wrong doing, and that visibilty is improving all the time (despite Bejing fighting it ferociously.) The fact also remains, that travesties committment in the financial service industry in the US do not receive severe punishments. In fact gross negligence seems to only be punished by large bailouts. Of course those were neccessary to prevent a new depression.

MongerX: I'll answer your question directly, but have to think a bit before commenting on where it fits into the argument. To a large extent the financial scandals and fraud in the U.S. occurred because the people involved did not think they would get caught. Some of this was based on the expectation the economy would keep running fine and mask the frauds, some of it was because many of the crimes were complex and this complexity was expected to mask the crimes, and in the case of someone like Madoff there was probably a bit of psychosis or sociopathy thrown in.

However, I'm not making the case that lawyers and a strong civil damages law regime will prevent all crime (or come close to doing so); nothing will. But having seen how this operates from the inside, it does make it significantly more costly for corporations to ignore legitimate consumer rights, and serves to modify their behavior accordingly.

(Message edited by LAguy on February 27, 2009)

Can I sue a volcano if it damages me???????? Or do I sue the government for failing to protect me from the volcano?????????


If anyone is interested in my opinion, financial travesties in the US are going unpunished because EVERY politician in Washington. From both parties. Republicans and Democrats. Has blood on their hands in the current financial crisis. Democrats WILL NOT be launching any congressional investigations into Republican wrongdoing on the topic. Why do you suppose that is????? Is it because Washington Democrats are sympathetic to Republican wrongdoers???? I think not. The reason there will be no serious investigations because EVERY lawmaker in DC is pretty much about equally culpable.

The answer IAS is you can sue Bobby Jindal for mocking the volcanos thereby pissing them off to the point where they blow their respective stacks and retaliate against the human race by spewing lava all over the place just to show what they can get away with when they are not monitored.

Any more questions?

Wow, great thread, and my board heroes, Mx, IAS, et al, are in rare form:

LOTS of good stuff here, but
the problem this time is clear. Many people were living high on credit. A Mercedes and a 60 inch flat screen for every house in the ghetto. Reality eventually set in

CLASSIC, but I'd add "an artificially over-inflatedly priced home in the ghetto"

Those who loaned their money to deadbeats with crap for collateral will lose there money and will need time to get back on their feet. Chase loaned my ex-wife $40,000 on credit cards when she hasn't held a job since 1992. Banks loaned the Lao girls and the Mexican gangbangers around here a half million any time they were willing to sign a piece of paper. Ask anyone. Loaning the Lao girls money is the same as giving them money. You will never see it again. Anyone could have told the banks that. My ex-wife, the Lao girls, the Mexican gangbangers, and the banks are all hating life now that the party is over but they will all get over it eventually. Bailing them all out is contrary to reality and everyone working their way back around to their own personal reality is the only way this recession will end. That will simply take time. Probably a couple of years this time around but then life goes on.

I LOVE GEITHNER http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/jan-june09/_02-25.html , but if he gets assasinated before we all get rich (again?), I nominate Sancho to take his place!

IAS, in Mexico, the peso devaluation is like an hourly punch in the face. For people who have been here a lot longer than I have, though, I guess the lesson is BOHICA!

From Wikipedia (every plagiarist's friend!):

"Second peso

Throughout most of the 20th century, the Mexican peso remained one of the most stable currencies in Latin America, since the economy did not experience periods of hyperinflation common to other countries in the region. However, after the Oil Crisis of the late 1970s, Mexico defaulted on its external debt in 1982 and experienced several years of inflation and devaluation until a government economic strategy called the "Stability and Economic Growth Pact" (Pacto de estabilidad y crecimiento económico, PECE) was adopted under President Carlos Salinas. On 1 January 1993, the Bank of Mexico introduced a new currency, the nuevo peso ("new peso", or MXN), written "N$" followed by the numerical amount. One new peso, or N$1.00, was equal to 1000 of the obsolete MXP pesos.

On January 1, 1996, the modifier nuevo was dropped from the name and new coins and banknotes – identical in every respect to the 1993 issue, with the exception of the now absent word "nuevo" – were put into circulation. The ISO 4217 code, however, remained unchanged as MXN.

Thanks to the stability of the Mexican economy and the growth in foreign investment, the Mexican peso is now among the 15 most traded currency units in the world, and is the most traded currency in Latin America. It has been fairly stable for the last few years; since the late 1990s the peso has traded at about $9 to $13 to the U.S. dollar."

15-1 and counting... It was LESS THAN TEN-1 5 months ago?

Hey LA Guy why don't you get back to me about US legal system >> Chinese legal system when Madoff is sentenced to death like those at fault in the Chinese toy paint and milk scandals.

Re: Madoff's DADDY -- ENRON --

Lay's DEAD, anyone wanna contribute to the BUTT SKILLING daily BOHICA fund? Probably as effective as as paying Afghan farmers 200 bucks to ALLAH AKBAR suicide bomb themselves/throw acid on girl students.

While I like Obama and think Geithner's HELLA smart, I'm certainly open to a more anarchist "outside the box" idea about "fixing" the global economy. Mx may be right, "Capitalist Darwinism" and swift JUSTICE may be the perfect mix.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone hold the Chinese legal system as a beacon of sanity. It's one of the worse on the planet.

Well the Chinese legal system certainly isn't as effective at incarcerating it's people as the US legal system in absolute or percentage terms.

But I guess the US legal system shouldn't get to cocky as they do have to look-up to Rowanda, but only in percentage term.

Of course if we condition things upon race, us whities - like Madoff - don't have to fear the US legal system as much as our black and hispanic compatriots do.

Seriously, I wasn't holding up the China legal system as a shining better example to the US one. I was really just subtley pointing out that LA Guy was using some good old xenophobic China hating to prop up his arguments against tort reforms. That was uncharasitcally cheap rhetoric from someone who usually brings good substance to debates.

In reality, we should probably have more fear of initially getting into legal entanglements in the US (definitely if we are black or hispanic.) While we should have greater fear about due process in China if we get into legal entanglements (unless we are black and hispanic.) And of course, we should all absolutely deathly fear the IRS. If the IRS had decided Bin Laden committed tax fraud they would have found his ass and fucked his life truly up a loooong time ago.

No, LAGuy made a good point. No country does a perfect job of consumer protections. I would also throw copyright and trademark protections in there as well, but lets leave that out of this discussion.

What does help greatly the Consumer Products Safety Commission, Dept. of Agriculture Inspections, FDA, and other regulatory bodies is the threat of a lawsuit. Thus there are two sticks to the profit carrot, one statutory, the other, legal - both criminal and civil, with civil being bigger. In China, there's no real concept of tort law, thus, no way to remedy a situation except through statutory law. Which, in a police state like China, isn't much at all on a given day.

In a lot of countries, there are no real legal remedies for the crap that occurred in China. If it had been done on a smaller scale, they simply would have bought their way out of it - or pulled political strings. You really can't do that in the US. You may be able to get out of the criminal side of it, or at least not get jail time if convicted. But the civil lawsuits, they hit the pocketbook and hard.

My idea of tort reform are measures to steamline the process to actually make it easier for plaintiffs to move forward without years and years of stall tactics. At the same time, I would put into place statutes that would severely cut down on frivolous lawsuits by making plaintiffs responsible for defendant's legal fees if the suite is deemed unworthy. Basically, reforms that allow real lawsuits to advance quicker while slapping down fish-finding expeditions and bogus suites filed when someone is simply looking for a payday.

And, sorry to the trial lawyers on here, but I would place caps on plaintiff's fees below where they are now. After tort reform, there shouldn't be any 15-year lawsuits, so costs should come down anyways. Still, getting huge awards that are largely eaten up by legal fees doesn't do much for anyone except trial and corporate defense attorneys.

MongerX: What have you been smoking? I made no arguments against tort reform, just against the idea that we would solve all the problems of the world by getting rid of lawyers and civil damages lawsuits. (As a side point I also wanted to clarify what happened in the McDonald's case, since the media, led by the right-wing media, has quite effectively made a field-day out of mispresenting the facts of that case).

As to my using "good old xenophobic China hating to prop up [my] arguments" I simply pointed out that one (or two) of the most egregious torts in recent history (depending on one''s perspective on which torts are the most heinous) took place in a political system that does not have (what I consider) an effective tort law system. Maybe you are a great fan of the Chinese legal system, but criticizing it does not automatically make an argument xenophobic. The next thing you know I'll be accused of being anti-white for my many criticisms of the U.S. government under the Republicans (which is not to say I have no criticisms of the U.S. government under the Democrats).

In fact, I find many things to fault the U.S. legal system for, including the high incarceration rate (which has virtually nothing to do with tort law). What I object to are those who want to blame the lawyers for every ill of our society (including the global economic meltdown as some of the comments in this thread seemed to suggest) and those who in the tort area want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, i.e., essentially gutting tort law without providing an effective alternative.

Maybe my example was not the best one possible, but xenophobic? Come back to reality my friend.

(Message edited by LAguy on February 28, 2009)

(Message edited by LAguy on February 28, 2009)

If it had been done on a smaller scale, they simply would have bought their way out of it - or pulled political strings. You really can't do that in the US. You may be able to get out of the criminal side of it, or at least not get jail time if convicted. But the civil lawsuits, they hit the pocketbook and hard.

Cat, you're a smart mofo.

But re: corruption in the US, are you REALLY suggesting the US isn't corrupt?

Seriously? Is the OJ situation your vindication here?

Forgive my indulging (Oliver Stone-esque) conspiracy theories, but at THE highest levels, the U.S. is extraordinarily susceptible to massive patronage by "interested" parties.

The De Medici family bought Da Vinci, Big Oil bought W, Cheney was a relative bargain in the process.

Jimmy Carter was a terrible president. Obama may circle his drain.

But at least they operated in the interest of the GREATER GOOD?

This really amazes me that this guy ruined so many people. He literally took wealthy people to their knees and into poverty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkogKAZGm_g

Porker,

Point is, if you wrong someone in this country, you stand the risk of getting hit with criminal charges and/or civil lawsuits. In China, the latter doesn't really exist, and the former is mostly a sham.

Keeping OJ in mind, yeah, he got off on the criminal charges for the murders, but the civil case at least took him to the cleaners. Eventually the fucktard messed up again - partly due to cash issues brought on by success of the civil lawsuit - and now he's in jail. The fucker should have fried for killing his ex-wife and her boyfriend, but in the end, he's financially ruined and in jail.

But that doesn't mean anything concerning the Chinese discussion. Tort law can be slow and messy, but it does work. It doesn't work perfectly, but I'll take our system of statutory and case/common law versus systems that are purely statutory.

Cat, fair enough, and good points.

I still think the global economic system will ultimately police itself by weeding out the weak.

If I remember correctly, the Chinese government knew far in advance of the story breaking about the tainted milk scandal. They didn't act on it because they didn't want the scandal to take up headlines prior to the olympics and "taint" the event. Thus the government is basically an accomplice in the poisoning and death of some of those kids.

Wow, it is amazing how you guys want to compare the actual effectiveness of the Chinese legal system versus the theoretical effectiveness of another. Especially when you assessments of actual effectiveness are tainted by strong biases. Think of this the next time you get an unjustified highly invasive search of your person or belongings by the US officials.

Once again Chinese xenophobia gets in the way of actual facts. The fact is China does have a rather infant tort law that is still developing.



Quoted from Conk, George W.,People's Republic of China Civil Code: Tort Liability Law. Private Law Review, Vol. 5, No. 2 (The 10th Issue), pp. 77-111, December 2005; Fordham Law Legal Studies Research Paper No. 892432.

Three reports in the December 2005 issue of China Law Digest make the point. Since the Administrative Litigation Law was promulgated in 1989, the People's Courts at all levels have heard over one million first-instance administrative cases - grievances against governmental agencies. Among those cases that have been resolved, the plaintiffs have won about 30 percent. In southern Guangxi, bordering Vietnam, a peasant injured by a man on a motorbike was held entitled to be compensated at the level of urban workers because despite his official residence outside Chongzuo City, the injured man had in fact been living and working in the City for 10 years. In western China the High Court of Chongqing City, on the YangTze, has announced it will issue guidelines on compensation for traffic accidents. The Court held that compensation standards for migrant workers who have incomes from steady employment and who have lived in the city for longer than one year should be the same as for urban residents.

Furthermore I recall a recent verdict in IP suit for a South Korean firm versus and Chinese national firm.

Overall, I think you need to consider China is a rapidly developing country along with many of their institutions. These institutions are far from what they will be when fully developed. In this case one should look at the trajectory as well as the current state. BTW you might want to be nicer to America's future employer and landlord. That's unless the Fed government keeps generating high quality debt for the Chinese to buy.

(Message edited by mongerx on February 28, 2009)

Murasaki,

No argument Bejing will act as to maximize the face of china (maximize perceived accomplishment and minimize embarassment.) But on the other hand, haven't the US Fed Reserve, Dept of Treasury, SEC, and other regulators hidden or refused to state the awful state of the institutions at the heart of the current financial crisis? Hell they still are operating in a very opaque way.

What happened in the milk tainting scandal was truly horrific. But as much as people here want to spin it, the guitly parties have been put to death or had their lives fucked with relative expediency. What about those most guilty in the finanacial crisis? At worst to date some have lost their jobs and/or been brought before congressional hearings to be scolded. Where has justice been better served?

America really needs to back the fuck of it's claim of the high moral ground. Grab a copy of "Rouge Nation" and get an eye opener about how open the US government is about its dealings abroad and at home. Yes I actually do have a book or two around.

Mongerx,

You're still confusing the matter. You're comparing a criminal case in a communist police state vs a financial meltdown in the US. We don't take bankers and lawyers out and shoot them because they lost money. That's something that would happen in China or Russia. Using the tainted milk case as an example of anything really doesn't accomplish much. The Chinese legal system is pure shit. Just because they quickly execute some guys does not mean it's a good one. Just because the US doesn't do summary executions of banking executives does not mean the US system doesn't work, or is bad.

vs a financial meltdown in the US. We don't take bankers and lawyers out and shoot them because they lost money. That's something that would happen in China or Russia

No, that would be wickedly cruel (just)?

No, in the freedom loving land of the Stars and Bars, Kenneth Lay's widow shits 400 lb. gold bricks.

Madoff's kids rewards are being able to BUY half the COUNTRIES in the world for ratting him out.

In The "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" we merely pay 8 figures annually to the wall street heroes that cook books and manipulate short term share prices.

And when the pyramid turns bottoms up?

They get a tsk tsk slap on the wrist. BAD BANKER! SHAME SHAME!!!

Will the cricket loving Carribean scheister see ONE FUCKING DAY in jail?

If he EVER says BOHICA, well, then, I'd agree that an arbitrary death sentence was a misguided approach!

"Wow, it is amazing how you guys want to compare the actual effectiveness of the Chinese legal system versus the theoretical effectiveness of another. Especially when you assessments of actual effectiveness are tainted by strong biases. Think of this the next time you get an unjustified highly invasive search of your person or belongings by the US officials.

"Once again Chinese xenophobia gets in the way of actual facts. The fact is China does have a rather infant tort law that is still developing."

Many of us who are posting in this thread (probably especially me) have strongly condemned in multiple posts the unjustified searches at the U.S. border. However, what these border searches have to do with my initial point about tort law (or anything else in this thread) is beyond reasonable comprehension.

But even more ridiculous is the use of the term "xenophobia" to insult those of us who believe the lack of an effective tort system (whether called "infant" or not) can lead to such things as the tainted milk scandal, or the lead in children's toys scandals, and so forth. To be frank about it, I hear my Chinese neighbors go on and on about these things (from experience) a hell of a lot more than any of us have here (in fact, I just returned from dinner with them where they brought it up again in the context of not wanting to bring their children for a visit to China owing to concern about environmental and food safety there--for the record I believe they are being overly cautious).

Next time I see them I'll have to object to their xenophobia on MongerX's behalf.

(Message edited by LAguy on February 28, 2009)

I have been reading this thread with great interest and I feel its time that an outsider puts his two cents in. The American legal system is far from perfect but comparing it to the Chinees? Give me a break that is like saying America should take legal cues from Mussolini for getting the Italian trains to run on time. I think it’s almost impossible to legislate effectively against greed, and I would caution against trying laws that attempt to regulate human nature. They always fail in the long run. Anyone remember the Eighteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, the war on drugs or even the attempts to legislate against our hobby?
Except the ebb and flow of world economics, learn from these mistakes. Use the best minds available to shorten the impact and duration of this disaster with the clear knowledge that the next one will happen and mirror every other one at its core and be different in ways we can not imagine yet.
As for comparing the American legal system to the quick justice metered out in China, I guess in these frustrating times we all look for quick fixes it would be nice to put a few bankers up against a wall and shoot them down in our justifiable anger and disgust but I think our smugness might be a little short lived when the workers with their pitchforks turn up at our doors and ask where are we, as share holders and investors. Where was our moral outrage then the stock exchangers around the world were posting record returns? Of course in our defence they are not totally blameless either.....
A Man for All Seasons is one of my favorite books and this discussion brings one section to mind Thomas More’s speech "And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide ... the laws all being flat?". "This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's.... And if you cut them down ... do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake."

After a long day of traveling I will try to make this short and sweet.

LA Guy says that without Tort reform you get atrocities like the Chinese Milk scandal. I pointed out that it's ironic that there was swift justice administered in this case, while on the other hand in the US with both criminal and civil law nets, repeated atrocities (not saying worse than milk tainting scandal) within the US financial services industry have gone unpunished (and punished doesn't mean capital punishement.) I don't think this really makes LA Guy's and others' case that you don't get justice or more effectively prevent people doing bad things with having extensive tort litigations in combination with criminal prosecutions.

The responses afterwards attempting to refute this objective observations, if I may paraphrase, discount that the Chinese government's actions in this case because China is totally corrupt and folks just buy themselves out of all kinds of trouble. I found these arguments to be purely subjective and IMHO seemed to be just China bashing.

I am not arguing that the Chinese legal system is better than that of the US. I am suggets it's better to not be so quick and dismissive. And don't justify your arguments with Chinese people do bad things and they do it because there isn't extensive tort litigation.

I guess that wasn't short and sweet after all?

BACK ON TOPIC:
It never was the price of rice in China. Lawyers do that to distract the public from real issues -- like the need for lawyers to get real jobs instead of being leeches. (In case it was missed: Law school - been there, done that. Bar exam - been there, done that, too). BTW, I never said anything about eliminating lawyers, just making it more difficult to become one and limiting the numbers.

On the issue of Government spending:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090301/ap_on_bi_ge/states_tax_troubles

My experience has been that government and the military pay a lot of money for training and then hire outside consultants to do the work that they were just trained to do. I actually was hoping for a full blown depression so that there could be real change. People talk about autoworker benefits and pensions. Every look at a government worker's?

Budgets were set when property values were artificially inflated. Government mentality is that if we don't spend it, our budget will get cut.

Someone needs to start talking straight with the American people. Lawyers make the laws that benefit themselves. The fox is guarding the henhouse. The question is how to get the message out and get enough people pissed about it that something gets done. Change. Yeah, I could go for some of that.

MongerX first says I'm using hateful xenophobia to support arguments against tort reform (arguments I never made) and now says I am making arguments in favor of tort reform.

Exectalent says he was hoping for a full blown depression.

I give up.

Back on topic. America has its work cut out for itself, but there are a few things that could quickly get the economy back on track.

1st open up the country to tourism. It is an oft discussed topic on this board but it is hard for many citizens for many countries to enter the United States. If they opened it up, it would be an immediate stimulus to the economy. I honestly believe that there are millions of people that want to visit the United States but have not because 1) they were denied a visa, or 2) they heard it was hard and never tried.

2nd let the dollar fall. Or in the case of China, demand the dollar fall. China is running a huge trade surplus with the US, which allows them to fund the American budget deficit. It is a circle that we have to break. Americans need to start buying American good again, not because it is mandated because it makes economic sense. Also, a weak dollar will also allow America to develop an export base. The reality is the dollar has been overvalued for too long, and hence why imports and exports are so out of whack.

BT, as painful as it will be in the beginning, you are probably right.

What we are doing now sure the fuck isnt going to work. We just went from bad to worst.

I bet we dont start pulling out of this until 2011 or 2012, and that is if we get our shit together.

BT what is tourism going to do for our economy? Most of the people who can afford to come here for vacation already do , aside from the very wealthy, who will come here to spend money? Its very expensive in the US.

As far as having a weak dollar , why would our creditors allow us to devalue the dollar against their currencies? If anything the world will be looking for a strong dollar since its the reserve currency, one of the main causes of this entire crisis was a weak/cheap dollar and the speculation that it caused , how about intrest rates that are real and encourage savings?

If this were a baseball game it would be the top of the first with 2 outs, we are all fucked, encouraging foreigners to come here and visit the grand canyon and hoping they dont stay to dilute the labor pool more than it already is ,isnt going to do anything.

One painful thing to think about, is that with a week dollar the price of fuel goes through the roof.

the price of everything goes through the roof except labor

that is correct and quite inflationary

Bluestraveller
As a foreigner who travels to the States often, I have to agree with you. Getting a visa to the States is a draconian and humiliating experience and as I have posted before there should be a big sign up at JFK that reads “Welcome to the USA now leave your money and fuck off!” because that’s how welcome I feel on arriving in the good old US of A. If the American government did a little more to encourage tourism I think it could have a dramatic effect on the US economy. Tourism has a number of advantages over other industries among them; Tourism is a renewable resource, its labor intensive and supports and creates local infrastructure best of all it can’t be outsourced to India. Over the last few years tourism has overtaken gold as a source of wealth in South Africa.

Larrydavid as for your comment that those who can afford to already travel to the States already do, sorry you are dead wrong. Most of my mates chose to holiday any where but the States because of previous bad experiences and the US’s reputation as an unwelcoming country. It’s not a price thing for non – mongering tourists Europe and Japan are way more expensive then the States.

I love America and my brother lives in the States so I have reason to visit but I have cut down on my traveling to the US because it’s a very unpleasant traveling experience. Case in point in May I have to spend a few days in the States so what am I doing? JNB to JFK arriving on the 6th. dinner with the family on the 6th and 7th off to Columbia on the 8th Back in the States on the 22nd and home on the 25th all in all 5 nights in the US for a trip that lasts almost a month.

Isawal: Not to diminish the points you make (which I agree with), but I bet if the mongering was as good in the U.S. as in Columbia you'd be spending more than five days of the near-month in the U.S.!

Why I want a Depression:

The reason is simple. Change. This administration campaigned on promises of change, so let's have some. Let's have realistic housing prices, let's have efficient government, let's not have everything we do lining some lawyer's pocket.

I know a little about turning around companies (OK, a lot) and every single one whether I was brought in by management or hired by investors or debt holders always said the same thing. If only we had more money. Wrong. If only you knew what the fuck you were doing.

Here is more money. $30 Billion to be exact.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090302/ap_on_bi_ge/aig_rescue

When is it going to stop? Throwing all this money at the problem without a plan is not going to solve anything. What about that financial genius Geithner that the Administration had to have. The markets are tanking because he cannot articulate a plan.

The government did a great job with the initial $350 billion of TARP money (an estimated $78 billion - 22% was wasted). No problem, they will print more.

A chess Grandmaster does not make a move until he has a clear vision. A turnaround CEO the same. The only vision I have heard so far is a very cloudy one. We need to spend money. What is the rush? I know, people are losing their jobs. Hmmm. Yeah, unfortunately it is the wrong people. Leave the workers and start clearing out the management suites.

Change. I do not think so. Just throw money at it like always has been done.

Allowing more people to enter the United States legally under tourist visas, would be a significant stimulus. There are many people applying for visas that are denied on a daily basis. Here's one small example. My mother in law was recently denied in Brazil. The plan was that she would travel with us when we go on vacation in the United States. Now she will not. If she had accompanied us, I would have picked up all the expenses, such as food, board, and air travel. All of that is money I would not have spent. It is incremental.

Lowering the dollar will be inflationary. Not as much because of the price of oil, since the price of oil is also falling as world wide demand falls. As the specter of inflation looms, the Fed will have no choice but to raise interest rates allowing good hard working Americans like me that save, to gain an decent interest on our savings. This will help the American savings rate get above water again.

There is one point that we all can agree on. There will be pain involved in the solution. There will be periods of inflation, which will force the standard of living down. But I still believe the key to all of this is to get our production and export capabilities back in equilibrium with our consumption.

I hear you brother , I agree 100% that its hard to get a visa for most brazilians , but I dont think easy visas are the answer , we need to revamp the entire monetary system, this one had a 38 year run and now its time for something new.

I think the market will lower the dollar ,once the deleveraging/liquidation is over but it wont be gradual.

Our central bank cant lower rates anymore so they can either just buy bonds themselves or figure out some other ways of printing money, either way massive inflation is inevitable , raising rates isnt an option either since we can barely pay the interest on the national debt now which is essentially an adjustable rate mortgage itself.

I hear you brother , I agree 100% that its hard to get a visa for most brazilians , but I dont think easy visas are the answer , we need to revamp the entire monetary system, this one had a 38 year run and now its time for something new.

I think the market will lower the dollar ,once the deleveraging/liquidation is over but it wont be gradual.

Our central bank cant lower rates anymore, they can either just buy bonds themselves or figure out some other ways of printing money, either way massive inflation is inevitable.

Raising rates isnt an option since we can barely pay the interest on the national debt now which is essentially an adjustable rate mortgage itself.

Exectalent: Just a depression? That is all? Why not do something really ambitious like ask (and help) Al-Qaeda to drop nuclear bombs on our 10 largest cities? That would really force change.

Damn the collateral damage! The people don't matter. Change at any cost!!

a depression is -10 percent growth , its gonna happen, either it happens now or later the longer it gets put off the worse it will be

Laguy -- Could we somehow get all the lawyers to go to those cities? Maybe a seminar on how to make $100,000 from a $50,000 divorce. Or how to make $20 million from a class action suit while the plaintiffs make $50. Or this one, how to drive medical malpractice insurance premiums through the roof, without really trying. Should I go on? I can because everything we do today a lawyer has his/her hands in our pocket. Everything.

Don't think so? Look around. A friend of mine was at a simple governmental hearing the other day and told me that there were 8 lawyers there. Guess who gets billed for that. Right - the taxpayers.

If we want to fix the economy we need to significantly curtail government spending and stop turning out lawyers like rats. Until then, the only stimulus many guys who used to travel might see could be at their own hands.

Exec

Were you involved in litigation or other dispute which either did not have the outcome you wanted or for which you got a legal bill you did not like? Or did you just wake up one morning and decide all the world´s ills are caused by lawyers? Seems like you are depriving bankers of at least some of the credit for that!

SF_Hombre

I have no personal axe to grind. In my business dealings I make sure I keep lawyers on a 2" leash. They don't buy a paperclip without checking with me first.

My opinions have been formed over years of experience watching lawyers inflict carnage on others. That has been painful enough.

Bankers are a story for another day. Anyone remember the days when the S&Ls were paying 19% on CDs and had mortgages on the books at 8%? Bankers are just not that bright. The only reason most CEOs I know talk even with them is because they have the key to the bank.

I think it is true that there are many outcomes in our legal system where the only parties that win are the lawyers. Actually, I am in one right now.

But that said, this thread is about the nation's economic problems and the stimulus package. I do not believe that our legal system, and our lawyers are to be blamed even remotely for the mess we are in. In my view, it is a insidious and ignorant collaboration between Wall Street, the Fed, our government, and the banking system, that has ushered us into of of the worst economic periods in the nation's history.

BTW, economists don't have a rigid definition for a depression in the same sense that they do for a recession. But all economic texts consider the main factor in an economic downturn turning into a depression is the length of the downturn. The "Great Depression of 1929" lasted 10 years. The worst years were 1930-32, when the GDP was -8.6%, -6.4% and -13%. Those years were made worse by Fed policy which did not pump money into the economy, but allowed money and credit to fall over 30%. That may not sound like a lot, but a drop of that magnitude will shut down any economy.

It is a very well known and established fact that a recession is defined as, when your neighbor looses his job and his house is foreclosed on. But a depression is defined as, when YOU loose your job and your house is foreclosed on.

BD, I have read in many places that the "classic" definition of a depression was a 10% or higher drop in GDP.

BT, you need to add a few entities to that list of collaborators that created the perfect storm. One is the standard American consumer. The other is the economic chain of factors that caused so many countries with surplus assets to invest that money in the US (as opposed to investing in their own countries) - creating too much easy credit in the process, and... well you know what happened.

This piece is from early January 2009


According to a USA Today/Gallup poll conducted last month, 35 percent of Americans think that a "depression" -- which the poll defines as "an economic downturn that is much more severe than most recessions and would last several years" -- is very likely, and another 39 percent think it's at least somewhat likely.

This, however, is a relatively vague definition of a "depression". If, for example, real GDP declined by 4 percent in 2009, a further 2 percent in 2010, and then held steady in 2011 before finally beginning to recover in 2012, that would be by far the worst economic slump since World War II and would meet the USA Today poll's definition of a depression. And there are various other signs and symptoms that we might describe as "depressionary". For example, if unemployment were to hit double digits, or there was a run on one or more major commercial banks, or there was severe price deflation on the order of, say, 4% for a couple of quarters, some people might consider those things to be evidence of a depression, and we'd begin to see the term thrown about more casually.

But there is a somewhat more precise definition of a depression (although by no means is it one universally agreed upon by economists): that is a 10 percent decline in real GDP over the course of a year or more. This is the definition that the predictions market Intrade uses. And the latest trade at Intrade just put the chances of a depression occurring at some point in 2009 at 40 percent -- or about ten times more likely than the odds that Norm Coleman prevails in his election lawsuit in Minnesota.

whatever it is it sucks but we have no one to blame but ourselves.

It may not even happen now , for all we know theyll create trillions reinflate all the bubbles maybe even find a few more asset classes to blow up, I think baseball cards are 80% off their all time highs , and I just happen to have a gary gaetti rookie card thats in mint condition:D but eventually the day of reckoning has to come , will it be in the style of the weimar republic? zimbabwe? Who knows?

I for one just would prefer it came sooner than later get it over with maybe learn something , go back to sound money maybe and try again.

here is a good website for stats that are a little more honest than the governments

http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data

Headline:

Madoff seeks to keep NYC penthouse, $62M in assets

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090303/ap_on_bi_ge/madoff_scandal

LOL re: Gary Gaetti! That guy became a Jesus freak and starting hitting like 5 HR's a year!

Hi LAguy

As I start the process to renew my American Visa I wonder if you are right. The process takes about an hour on the net followed by an appointment at the local consulate that takes a morning were you have to take your whole life story in triplicate and deal with some petty little paper pusher.

As for how you define a depression how about- if it feels like it and it smells like it and it tastes like it and it looks like it… your really don’t want to step in it.

As for the assertion that lawyers some how caused the problem and there are just too many of them floating around the States causing problems. America is for better or worse a land of laws. It is no longer the land of the free but a highly regulated society. Maybe the new Government will take the opportunity to simplify Americas Federal legal code. But given the number of lawyers in government I some how doubt that. Its simply the law of supply and demand there are so many layers in the states because there is work for all of them, they are a symptom not the disease. What did the devil say in the Devils Advocate “the law is the new religion and lawyers are its priests.”

My two cents:

The underpinning of our problems began with the passage of a well intentioned but scary tax code in 10/97 which made residential real estate a tax free investment. The Tax Reform Act of '97 not only lowered the capital gains tax, prompting people to sell their real estate investments, it also permitted people to sell their own homes at a profit and pay NO taxes. The code states that if you've lived in your home for 2 of the past 5 years, you can sell it and pay NO tax on the profit.

So what happened? I remember sitting in my real estate office in 11/97 and my phone began ringing with clients saying "sell!", and I got an ominous feeling in my gut. Home prices had always been stable until then...

By the year 2000, people who had bought low began selling for high prices and pocketing nice tax free profits. They moved into bigger houses and rode the wave again until 2002, when the first year of the 'housing boom' began.

Buy low, sell high and pay no tax is what started this mess. The government had no business making residential real estate a tax free investment. Then when hyper inflation hit home prices, what did they do? They threw gas on the fire with LOWER interest rates and laws requiring banks to make riskier loans to the 'underpriveleged' who wouldn't normally qualify, transferring the risk to Fanny & Freddy. Clinton's signed off on the TRA. Bush & Greenspan watched it happen without raising rates and Obama contributed to the laws that made high risk loans happen.

So what's the solution? It's really quite simple; use the bailout money's to subsidize refinancing of homes.

Nothing else can be more effective than this plan.

This will bring stability to the housing market.

This will bring stability to the financial markets which are REELING from the effect of carrying so many unsecured and nonperforming mortgages.

This will restore consumer confidence and permit people to begin spending again.

Here's an example:

You owe $300,000 on a home that's only worth $200,000.

The government let's you refinance $180,000 with a bank, and 'lends' you $120,000 on the home in a no interest note that gives the government 50% of the net proceeds from the sale of the home, up to the value of their note. That's a 50% better return than they're getting on any of the other 'bailout' monies they're giving away.

Let's say you sell in 3 years for $220,000, and after closing costs there's $20,000 net proceeds. You get $10,000 and the government gets $10,000.

Anyone got any better ideas?

PS
Oh, and they need to gradually close the tax free status of real estate with incremental annual tax increases. This will take away the 'wild west' incentive to buy and flip real estate.

I would also argue that, regardless, housing would have bubbled a bit in 2002 since the stock markets had crashed about the same as now, and the money had to go somewhere. So, first housing in 2002-2005 (aided by all you mentioned), then when that bubble looked as big as it could get, then commodities. That ran from 2006-2008, then that bubble popped.

Now, we have much lower real estate value, much lower stock prices, and commodities have fallen back as well. Everyone is sitting on cash. Individuals, businesses, banks, funds, everyone. This is a classic case of a financial seizure. The money is there, just no one is letting it out of their fists.

I'm not sure if everyone is waiting on the next bubble so much as their waiting for a sign to jump back in to one market or another.

Personally, I think it will be real estate for consumers. With the price drops and low interest rates, at least here in the DC area a mortgage on a some townhouses in decent areas (and certainly condos) is actually cheaper after taxes than renting, so as soon as a little confidence builds I think the housing market is primed for stability - not a big rebound in prices, but a good floor against further massive declines.

Now we are working on the Federal government bubble. It's really going to be a mess when that bubble bursts.

I believe the root cause of the problem is Alan Greenspan's financial policies which span over 10 years and 2 presidents. The Fed was printing money as a proxy for financial growth. When the economy was growing, the Fed would print more money avoid inflation. When the economy was flat, the Fed would bring money and lower interest rates. There was never an instance not to print money.

This excess liquidity bubbled into the real estate markets and the stock markets creating an artificial sense of wealth. The excess liquidity also funded many projects that would have never seen the light of day during normal economic times. These projects did indeed create jobs, increased consumptions, but they were wholly unsustainable.

I did an analysis. The Dow hit a high of 14000 in October 2007. Now in March 2009, it is less than 7000 or roughly 1/2. That is about 500 days for the Dow to hit 1/2 of its previous high. In the Great depression, it took 400 days (less time) the Dow to hit 1/2. That said, these are the only times in the last 70 years that the Dow has decreased by 50%.

My view is that the housing market is more a symptom rather than a solution. If you believe that the root cause is the money supply, we need to create an equilibrium between the size of the economy and the amount of money in the system. During this process, interest rates will rise and the dollar will fall. It must be managed so it does not spiral. That is, when interest rates rise, the economy contracts, and then the money supply contracts, etc. Bad spiral. The point is that somehow we have to undo the bad that has been caused in the last 10 years in a careful and gentle way.

FYI...

Spent some time at a symposium over at my Dept. of Economics titled "What is a depression and how will we know if we're in one?" It was interesting in the sense that no one agreed with anyone else. It was great evidence for why the field is known as "The Dismal Science" and why members of Congress often refer to economists as "the witchdoctors."

It turns out there is no official definition of depression in the sense that there is a definition for "recession" that's adopted and used by the National Bureau of Economic Research and recognized by the Council of Economic Advisers.

The key factors that came up repeatedly were: 1) magnitude of economic contraction; and 2) the duration of the contraction. All agreed that a deep but short-lived (12-18 month) contraction is not a depression. The Great Depression of '29 hit bottom (the trough) in '33, peaked briefly in '37, then contracted and went down until mid-'38, and then pulled out of the downturn in late '40. The contraction was very deep and lon-lived. They all agreed that we won't know if we're in a depression for another couple of years.

The other thing they all agreed on is that you can't rely on just one economic indicator, such as GDP, to make a determination on whether the economy is expanding or contracting. Some indicators (orders of durable goods) are leading indicators and some (unemployment) are following indicators. They all agreed that you need a market basket of indicators to really see what's going on, but they then couldn't agree on what indicators should be included. Hence, there is no official measure.

The world economic crisis will not end until the American homeowner can afford to SPEND money again, and the financial instutions rid themselves of worthless mortgage debt.

That's why my above plan is the only way to immediately jump start the economy again.

It stabilizes the housing market, encouraging buyers to buy.

It immediately relieves the banking & finance industry of their huge losses while restoring liquidity to their balance sheets.

It restores calm to the masses, giving them confidence to buy a new car. We're pouring billions into GMC and for what? They're still going to fail until Americans start buying cars! GM's starving and on life support and instead of feeding it we're just paying for more life support.

Every penny we give to automakers and financial institutions is completely wasted while they continue to fail inspite of the aid. At least giving the aid to the debt-laden homeowners will free up their purses with restored faith in our economy.

I agree with BT , about the money supply but BT if the money supply/goods and services ratio ever equals out from rising rates the dollar will get stronger not weaker , there will be less dollars chasing the same amounts of goods and services.

All of the problems can be traced back to inflation.

If the money supply increases at a different rate than the gdp you have inflation or deflation , if you can borrow money at a cheaper rate than the rate of inflation why wouldnt you?

but banks use deposits as reserves which allow them to create more money to loan but who is going to put money in the bank when youre guaranteed to lose money? so they have to borrow the money fron the central bank which increases the money supply even more than if they were using deposits to create the money. so, more inflation more inflation will always result in higher asset prices and is also a hidden tax

Larry David,

I am glad that you agree with me because I agree with you. Inflation had been the true risk during Greenspan's day. There was enormous inflation, but it did not escalate into a disaster like Brazil and Argentina in the 80's. I have often pondered why. One reason is that the US government almost by design is in inflation denial.

Unlike the rest of the world, the American government does not include the price of food and the price of energy in transportation. The list is enormous. From what I know, all presidents dating back to Nixon, have all found more items to exclude from the inflation calculation. The main reason is social security because social security ratchets up with inflation.

As a note. My individual health care costs have more than doubled in the last 8 years. Plus it covers less, and the copays have increased. If that isn't inflation, I don't know what is.

Right now, I don't think that we are running the risk of inflation. I think that we are running the risk of runaway inflation if the stimulus is too big. Obama's plan OTOH is fairly small, and is running a larger risk of being ineffective.

As far as DG's points. We have to remember that our government is broke. To do any plan or pork, requires driving the deficit larger, and more borrowing from external sources. In my view, all of these stimulus plans just delay/soften the inevitable.

That said, I think that your plan is much better than most of the stuff in the present stimulus plan. Perhaps you should talk to Barney Frank.

check out that link I posted ,there is an estimated M3 chart and the cpi measured how it was in 1990 ppi will also give and Idea of the rate at which money is being created

How could we not be running the risk of inflation? Every other time I flip on the TV I hear where the government if fixing to drop yet another Trillion on this or that dubious endevor. They are printing the money out of thin air. If it were that easy, where every time the government wanted something, they could just print out yet another Trillion and no one anywhere would ever notice, then why didn't we start printing a Trillion every other day years ago? Just because there is not inflation today does not mean there will not be inflation next year or the year after.

who said there was no inflation? inflation is the increase in the supply of money, rising prices are caused by inflation, it takes a while for prices to rise , I think the reason why there is no velocity of money is because the banks have 30 dollars in loans to 1 dollar in reserves , until that gets below 10-1 the credit will remain frozen

Inflation is good in this case, since it will encourage people to trade cash for investments. Deflation is what needs to be avoided, since people will hold onto cash instead of risking it in investments - like housing - that will sell cheaper next month.

As to the inflation problems of the last few years, I tend to agree. Taking out food and energy from inflation figures, well, for poor people, that's a good chunk of their income right there. So for them, the inflation of the last few years has been sky high. Then again, since oil has collapsed over the last 4-5 months, that would foreshadow some serious disinflation if not outright deflation.

I consider the commodities bubble, especially oil and grain, to be as responsible for the current mess as the housing bubble. Housing prices started their decline almost 3 years ago, but when oil went sky high along with grains and food, that was the real punch to low and middle income brackets.

BT writes "That said, I think that your plan is much better than most of the stuff in the present stimulus plan. Perhaps you should talk to Barney Frank."

I would LOVE to talk to Barney Frank, however he's not returning my calls or emails. Perhaps if we sent him some artistic semi-nudes of ourselves that would get his attention; anyone here look good in a sunga?

Hey, you're the guy who has taken digits up the poopchute. Maybe you should go. Those of us with virgin asses might not handle it as well as you

Personally I think if we removed all US visa requirements for Brasileiras under 25 years old, on the condition they don't charge more than R$100/programma after they arrive here, this will provide a lot of necessary stimulation.

It probably will not loosen Deeg´s pucker pocket, but my guess is it is pretty loose now anyhow, at least by Korean standards.

P.S. We may need congressional legislation to except any woman Jag has done on national defense grounds.

Deeg and Barney Frank do have more in common than I realized.

SF_Hombre,
You know all those signs you see at Immigration Control as you leave Brazil that mention fines and jail for exporting Brazil's wildlife? They should be sufficient to keep Jag's girls in Brazil.

On a semi serious note, does anyone know what legalizing prostitution and taxing it would bring into the Government coffers? To extend that thought what about the legalizing of marijuana? Think about the cost savings in not having to enforce these draconian and outmoded laws.

Also it would do wonders for tourism. If they gave me a joint as soon as I arrived at JFK it would make the arrivals presses a little less painful.

Yesterday Obama moved agressively to close all the tax havens for offshore corporations used by the wealthy to limit their tax obligation. Why? Because America's wealth is scared by his agressive social welfare plans.

(http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D96MN08G1&show_article=1)

Obama's socialism scares the wealthy. Are you wealthy? Many of you may think you are not so Obama will not tax you. Before you think this won't effect you, consider our socialist Canadian brothers where a school teacher earns $60,000 per year and pays $30,000 in taxes.

I hope all you liberals are happy with your choice, 'cuz we're in for years of wealth redistribution and it's gonna hit the middle class hard. Mark my words...

Suddenly a Korean finger doesn't look quite so big after all.

PS
All of you sicken me. To suggest that I enjoy anything going in my backdoor is nothing short of reprehensible and painful. I do, however miss the happy endings from my Korean masseuse - at least up to part where my homophobic male pride gets deflated by a badly adhered set of Lee Press-On nails.

Now the Russians are calling for the collapse of the USA!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,504384,00.html

While I doubt our country will collapse, I have grave doubt that the dollar will survive the damage that's been done, and wouldn't be at all surprised to see a currency recall during Obama's presidency.

Isawal,

Things like prostitution are state laws, not Federal. Pot can be de-illegalized at the Federal level - basically, deemed to no longer be a narcotic - but if this were done, it would most likely be treated like alcohol and regulated by each state. Definitely not the Federal government.

Same goes for most lawsuits. The vast majority of civil lawsuits are done under state laws, not Federal.

Yes, it's the middle class who have tax havens in the Caymans, etc. Right. And these "middle class" are engaging in tax dodges that would embarrass even Tom Daschle. But that's OK. It's their money. They should be able to violate the law by exploiting loopholes.

It's not socialism.

Neo-Con tax policy: pay only what you want. Fuck the government, fuck the poor, fuck everybody but yourself.

Good. More stories from Faux News. That story is an attempt to use the magician's technique of distraction so you won't see what's happening right in front of you. In other words, the Russian economy is much closer top collapse than the US economy, so it's important to distract the local public by suggesting that things are worse elsewhere.

What odds are you offering on the currency recall? If you're offering decent odds, I'm in. But I won't pay until after the currency recall has occurred.

The truth is our society is fragmented into a thousand different directions. Politicians and Judges are not respected by anyone and who can blame anyone for not respecting them.

Crybaby movie stars,singers athletes and corrupt business executives like Donald Trump are worshiped in our society! Hollywood, Fifth Ave marketing and the internet has glorified being bad and corrupted and has reinforced the notion that if you can find a loophole in the law (lawyers) then all is justified. There are morals or ethics anymore when it comes to making money.

We have seen the end of the America as we have lived in.....we are going to become a Socialist Democracy. I would advise all of you to do the things you have dream of doing because the laws and rules are going to start changing relatively fast in the next few years.

One of my dream trips is to travel the whole country in a RV for 6-7 months. You wouldn't believe the deal I have negotiated to rent a 2007 Winnebago Fleetwood Bounder for 7 months starting in April. We will hitch up the Grand Cherokee to the back and see this country hopefully before things get really bad!

some good jim rogers videos for anyone who is interested.

pt.1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzK-qZzmnTE

pt.2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_izvHhD6pF0

pt.3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCZG9KT8NvU

Beachman at Work:



What are you doing between now and your trip in April? Digging a bunker in your backyard? Stocking up on canned goods and ammunition? Run, baby, run...the Socialists are coming!

ill help digging the bunker, anywhere to stash my silver and gold coins over there?

I really liked the Jim Rogers videos. It is hard to rebut his logic. Somehow I get some solace living here in Brazil.

Health care reform. Simple. Back to my original premise. We have too many lawyers. Health insurance high. You got it - lawyers. Doctor visits over the top. Guess why they have to pay those outrageous malpractice premiums? So all those lawyers can buy a bigger boat. Oh, yeah, I forgot all those nice lawyers are just protecting the public from all those evil and incompetent doctors.

And, what about all those excess government employees who wouldn't know an honest day's work if it sat down next to them while they were sleeping at work. Keep them in place while taxing the guy who busted his butt to make a good life.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090305/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/obama_taxes

Obama is not worried about charitable giving. That is obvious from his tax returns.
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/03/obama-releases.html

Want to really fix the economy do something about all the government workers and lawyers sucking the rest of us dry. And, leave the rich out of it. Many are self-made and worked too hard to give health care to all the lazy asses who chose not to work as hard.

Catocony
I know that prostitution is a state law and legal under federal law, like in the case of Nevada, but remember then the legal drinking age in New Orleans was 18 and the federal government wanted it razed to 21? You raze the legal drinking age or no highway. I know it would never happen but can you imagine a State Income maximization bill? Legalize pot, working girls and cut other wasteful spending or no federal bailout! To quote the great Dr. King "I have a dream"...

Isawal: Sounds more like "I have a wet dream."

Well, right now, pot is a narcotic, which is illegal at the Federal level and thus, illegal in all states. Any state could legalize prostitution if they wanted to, and I doubt there would be much blowback from the federal side.

more good news

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt7Goly6yrY

Obama wants to spend our way out of this! Right now he is speaking on socializing Health Care and the enormous cost it will take! Can you imagine how much more of our 70% plus (33% considered obese) of the population will get fat knowing they don't have to be responsible for there own health. If you are going to give free Health Care....next it will be free housing, utilities, transportation, food, etc.
Every entity the government has given bailout money to is worse off now and billions have been spent. Joe Biden gave a speech today at the 5 star Fountainbleau Resort in Miami to the Auto union big whigs and the liberal media and Obama is just ignoring the fact that the union bosses get a free pass with their spending while workers are losing jobs.
The market down another 250 points and all Obama and Emanuel want to do is take advantage of the crisis to push their liberal, social agenda.!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mzcbXi1Tkk

Beachdick,

So, people will get fat if they have free medical care? What a fucking moron you are, though congrats for being non-monger of the year. Have you actually seen pussy in the last 2-3 years? Other than your face, I mean.

"If you are going to give free Health Care....next it will be free housing, utilities, transportation, food, etc."

Do you mean like in just about every westernized and industrialized country, each of which provides free health care? I wish someone had told me they also provide free housing, food, and so forth; I would have moved to one of them if only I had known.

"Can you imagine how much more of our 70% plus (33% considered obese) of the population will get fat knowing they don't have to be responsible for there own health."

Let's just hope Obama doesn't include care for the retarded in his health bill. Beachman would probably take that as a license to become retarded . . .

Oh, wait a minute. Never mind.

(Message edited by LAguy on March 05, 2009)

The Socialists are converging on Florida this very minute!!! Get to work on that shelter....Dig, Baby, Dig!!!

media isnt liberal beachman , read some noam chomsky, and stop listening to hannity and limbaugh , they are as poisonous as their so called left wing counterparts, wake up

Everything will be fine just as soon as we get rid of all those pesky corporations and nationalize the financial sector, health care, auto industry, energy, transportation and housing. Everyone knows that anything the government takes over almost instantly becomes more efficient and provides better service to the people. Just look how much money was saved on airport security by creating TSA and how much more pleasant it is and how much safer we all feel now whenever we fly. Once we expand that sort of fantastic benefit to half our economy we will all be much better off.

Actually, IAS, I hate to say this, but I do feel safer when I fly. I'm not sure the tradeoff is worth it, but I feel safer. I'm not convinced TSA is the only way to increase safety, but I'd rather have them than Blackwater handling airport security.

There are also tons of examples where the private sector has been brought in to assume former govt. operations (child welfare services, adult and juvenile corrections, etc.) where the results were a disaster. The trick is finding the places where markets function well and where they don't. From the looks of it, health care may be ( I said MAY be, not is) one of those. The private system in the US is completely broken. It works well for some (it seems) but not at all for many others, and costs are out of control for all. Govt. is not the reason for spiraling health care costs. Features built into our private system are.

We can let GM fail (and should); we can't afford to let the financial sector collapse, despite their own fuck-ups. No one is proposing a one-size-fits-all answer, despite what FOX News claims.

Beachman,

I honestly believe that there is a lot of room for a conservative voice in American politics, and particularly right now.

The Democrats are not the be-all-end-all to these problems, and neither are the Republicans. The problem is that the Republicans have lost their rationale side. All we get is sulking, when we need rational conservative discourse. Throwing money at many of these problems has already proved wrong. Rather than taking glee in the errors, Republicans need to offer new conservative ideas as alternatives. Instead, Republicans are sitting in the corner and sulking. Rush Limbaugh, the defacto leader, has already announced the Republican goal is to make Obama fail. This is bad for America.

There are many things that need some moderation with the democrats, and it is the check and balance of the republicans that provide that.

As far as health care, we all can agree that the American health care system is one of the worst in the industrialized world. It is truly the worst of all worlds. Obama wants to nationalize it which many other countries have found success. I don't know whether I like Obama's ideas, but I do know that the current one needs to be thrown away.

As far as your other points. I think that everyone can agree that the government is not going to nationalize food, transportation, etc. I think you know that too. Are you just inventing shit to get a reaction?

We are just at the beginning stages of the commercial real estate market taking a huge shit. This is going to get interesting.

I just want to know who decided Obama is the one who gets to choose the leader of the Republican party? Since the media is reporting that Rush is the leader on account of Obama’s people said so. I must have missed that meeting.

What is scary is that Fox News is by far the most watched cable news with twice the viewship of its nearest competitors.

http://tvbythenumbers.com/category/ratings/top-news/cable-news

Equally scary is Rush Limbaugh. Why don't some of these people just go away?

Doesnt anyone realize that the mainstream media is just for entertainment, that it only exists to mold public opinion and sell advertising? If the public wants real info they have to do the work , read history, find out on their own who the poiticians and pundits speak for, if they arent willing to put the time in they deserve what they get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oWxAYJkJKk

BD; If the TSA only job was airport security, I would agree with you. However they have morphed into a huge beast that has become involved with ALL aspects of commercial transportation in the U.S.

Not only did we get big government with the Bush administration, we also got one that interferes with the daily lives of many Americans.

However getting back to what we need to do in order to fix our economy. I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said "the only thing America creates are rich executives" In someways this is true. Too many people like Beachman and Rush want to only blame the unions for the failure of our auto industry among others. The unions are not the problem, had management plowed that money back into R&D they would be able to compete against the European and Asian auto makers, but they FAILED to do so!!

It sucks but some companies are going to have to be allowed to fail and die off, but the government should try to protect the hourly workers pensions and health benefits, by going after any and all "golden parachutes" of the executives of these failed companies.

IAS,

I think the rationale behind Limgaugh as the spokesman for the Republican party is more a function of Steele's (head of RNC) tepid response than Emanuel's allegation.

Either way, if Limbaugh is not the spokesperson, what person best embodies what the party represents now a days? The names Coulter, Palin, O'Reilly, Jindahl and Hannity come to mind. Any better ideas?

To those of you who try to strike fear by claiming there is going to be wealth or income re-distribution under Obama:

We heard the same thing when Clinton took office. Not too many people accused Bush of income distribution, at least not in the direction of rich to poor.

So, it would appear income or wealth re-distribution means the rich pay a couple of percentage points more in taxes while the stock market increases substantially, the economy roars, and the number of jobs increase.

Lack of income distribution of the sort the far-right advocates means the stock market collapses and loses around fifty percent of its value, 3 million jobs are lost in six months, the housing market collapses, and the far right can feel happy about their ideological purity while using the couple of percent they save on taxes to very partially offset their massive investment losses.

Maybe I'm just a hopeless liberal, but I'll take income re-distribution ala Clinton (and Obama) over Bush economics.

I am trained in security and I feel less safe at American Airports then practically any where else I visit. I don't want to write a thesis but more noise, more regulations, more money thrown at the problem and more people in uniforms do not equate to better security. Learn from the best and in anti terrorism that’s the Israelis.

As for Americas problem with obesity another four years of republican rule would have cured it. No house, no job, no money, no food…no problem. Being overweight is not a big problem among the homeless.

LAguy, a dreams a dream I will take any that I can get:-)

Here's an interesting read on the Great Depression done in timeline form. There are too many eerie similarities for my taste.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Timeline.htm

I wouldn't emulate the Israeli system in any way. They live in a police state - armed guards at the entrance to most buildings, very heavy monitoring, that sort of thing. As far as their airport security goes, it's probably necessary, but keep in mind, they need to lock down a total of two larger international airports and a handful of small ones that are mostly domestic. Basically, fewer and smaller airports than Ohio. It's much easier to lock down a couple of points than the hundreds the US has, and to secure a few hundred flights a day vs the 25,000+ commercial flights in the US each day.

Just a bit of Rush/Hannity baiting from the Colbert Report

***obsequious crack-licking***

NY state is proposing a "five %" luxury tax on cars over 60K and any other 20K+ purchases (jewelry, etc).

Easy analysis: HELLO CT, NJ for same sales markets.

Easy FIX: What's the FED tax situation on said items? Last time it was discussed was like 1992?

ANYBODY here gonna argue about a 400% tax on yachts or 5K USD rings/necklaces/diamond encrusted Hummers?

Mr. Gekko?

Well maybe. But on cars, they will get their tax when you register a new car in New York that has been bought in CT, NJ or wherever. This is a common issue whenever someone thinks about crossing state lines to purchase a car in a state with a lower sales tax and the higher tax states have ways to collect the tax anyway.

As to other types of purchases such as jewelry, it may be more problematic if the purchaser decides to cheat on his or her annual state income tax return (which will likely require that you declare such purchases).

Question - what's the vehicle sales tax in New York right now, compared to New Jersey or Connecticut. It varies greatly from state to state. I bought a car when I was living in Florida but immediately registered it (actually, just transferred the registration from my old car) since the tax in Virginia was/is 3% and in Florida it was something like 5-6%

I believe it varies by county , in nyc i think i payed 8.375

I believe it varies by county , in nyc i think i payed 8.375

new jersey is 6%. Nj also has certain small cities they call''enterprise zones'' where the tax is 3%..Paterson, Kearny,Camden, etc

Kearny has the worst looking women in the USA. Without a doubt.

I guess you never went upstate New York.

Catocony
Israeli Airport Security operates at every major airport in the world admittedly it is only concerned with flights to Israel but for all airlines, this is a pretty open secret as are their numerous successful interventions around the world. As for Isreal being a police state: There is no minimum drinking age, prostitution is legal and women look hot in IDF uniforms I rest my case.

BTW thanks for the advice I am traveling to the states in late April I guess I will have to scratch Kearny from my plans. Just out of curiosity what was a sophisticated urban type like you doing there??

I had to pick a friend's relative up who lives there.

As far as Israeli Security, they may be at airports where El Al flies, but it doesn't impact regular airport operations. I've never flown El Al and don't plan on ever flying them, but all I remember flying in on Lufthansa was that the boarding area in Frankfurt is separated by a second security checkpoint - same as the gates with US-bound flights - and I think they did an at-gate bag inspection on one occasion. Nothing like the 3-4 hour death march to leave the country.

I owe the USA government an apology. I went for my visa interview this morning and everyone was friendly and efficient All in all I was in and out within half an hour...and the girl who did the interview was kind f cute. I have to say the visa office was kind of empty the place is set up to do hundreds of visas a day. My appointment was one of the last of the day (they only do interviews in the morning) and the place was empty there where only about four of five of us. It does not bode well for tourism to the States.

By the way Cat I have flown ELAL often and you are not missing anything lousy meals and rude in flight staff. Israeli Security operates on all flights to Israel no matter which airline or which airport. If an airline is unhappy with the arrangement they can loose their landing rights in Israel.

Yes, they may, but they don't take over for TSA, that sort of thing. I actually couldn't stand Israel, it's the only Middle East country I've been to - out of about a dozen - where I found poor service in hotels and restaurants and generally felt uncomfortable being there.

Cat: Could the problem have been you were traveling incognito in a burkha?

No, the problem was I was distinctly not Jewish. Most - basically, every other - hotel/restaurant in most countries make allowances for the fact that not everyone is the same fucking religion. I could get bacon and sausage in every Muslim country except Saudi Arabia, and I could have a beer in a private pub in a top hotel in every Muslim country except Saudi Arabia. However, in Tel Aviv, that bastion of western democracy in the Evil Middle East, it was certainly the Jewish way or the highway when it came to food. And I thought the food there sucked ass.

I also wasn't much for being half-frisked before I walked into a building or restaurant. My (at the time) UAE residency visa in my old passport got them all excited on entry, and while the exit at the airport was uneventful, getting up at 2:00 AM for a 7:00 AM flight sucked ass as well. If I remember correctly, at the first security screen, there were 4 lines set up. If you got into line 3, you couldn't get into a different line. No concept of proper queuing, if someone in front of you was 1) Arab and/or 2) moving a fucking house worth of clothes and belongings, you stood there with your thumb up your nose for an hour while whoever in front got Roto-Rootered by security.

Then, once through there, the airline check-in was all fucked up, at least Lufthansa was. That took forever, then a second security checkpoint which made TSA look like nothing, then I think we were finally through to the gates. All in all, about 3 hours of suck just to get on a packed Lufthansa flight back to Germany.

(Message edited by copperfieldkid on March 10, 2009)

Cat; Nothing like what you described happened to me the two times I flew out of Tel Aviv on El Al to Cairo in 91, and 92. My experience was they asked me two questions. Did I have a diplomatic pouch, and was I armed. My response was not today, and the only thing out of the norm, was I had a guy follow me around the airport until I got on the plane, but thats what happens when your American passport has a black cover.

I have been to Israel dozens of times and never had a problem. The staff in hotels have always been fine. As for the food I wouldn't know I do not eat pig, but the I like middle eastern food and Israels beef comes from Argentina so I haven't had any complaints.

Well the USA has a lot of lawyers because it has a lot of laws. Tally up all the Federal , state, local laws and agency enacted regulations I dare say we have more laws and restrictions than any other place on Earth. But I don't think sheer amount of lawyers caused the financial mess. If anything it is too many educated people with MBAs. They learn the business cycle and they do all the right things (i.e. less demand; cut production , cut labor), but the problem is they are all doing it and doing it in unison. Everyone is following the textbook and it's feeding a downward spiral.

One last thing. I was listening on the radio about possibility of creating a "bad bank" to buy up all the toxic assets and get them off other bank's balance sheets. Why not create a "good bank" instead. Buy up the good assets and let the banks that caused this mess choke on toxic assets.

The "bad bank" idea is good if implemented correctly. Pretty similar to Resolution Trust Corp during the S&L crisis and about the same as when a bank fails and FDIC takes it over. A lot of people don't know that that process is very efficient and leads to increased lending and cleaner balance sheets with the possibility that the bad assets may actually turn a profit one day.

So Madoff's in the market for soap-on-a-rope. Maybe the US justice system ain't so bad after all!

I hope the civil system leaves his poor, aggrieved wife pushing a shopping cart down Columbus and eating out of a dumpster, but I think we all know that she'll be about 1000X better off than OJ.

Oh, and so far his fucking lawyers surely haven't billed hardly anything?

I'm still trying to figure out how Social Security is any different than a Ponzi Scheme.

On Social Security, the answer is unlike Madoff, the government can print money to make up for any deficit. Not an admirable thing to do, but that is a significant difference.

Madoff was pretty much printing the equivalent of money. It worked just fine for him so long as people still had confidence those paper statements he was printing was worth what was written on them. I guess he finally just printed to much of it and people stopped believing it was worth anything.

Ohh... LaDude...
Me thinks IAS nailed you there

social security is a pyramid scheme, and a damn good one , except for the fact that theyve already spent all the money and too many workers dont pay into it (Illegals). its doomed no way they will be able to pay out what theyd have to. of course theyll print the difference so at least the illegals , and people who dont pay into it after they make over a certain amount will through the inflation tax

Actually illegals do pay into Social Security and since most use fake SSNs, they can never file for benefits. Nice.

Of course, Mexico I think filed a request with Dept. of State for the US to pay benefits "earned" on the fake IDs to illegal Mexicans if/after they get a green card and get a real SSN.

I dont think most illegals work with a fake ss#, although some do, Its impossible to know the % but id guess 20% where I live, just guessing, but Its not most, all illegals pay excise taxes but they still have an advantage over people that have to pay taxes ,and use a disproportionate amount of services IMHO

china worried

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090313/ap_on_re_as/as_china_us_economy

LD, if you're talking about day laborers who are paid under the table, then sure, although the money that was paid them under the table had taxes paid on it since it couldn't be deducted from the books as payroll expense.

I'm talking about the huge percentage that have fake papers and everything.

well what jobs are the huge % doing?
where I live it seems to be hotels , cleaning services , and maybe fast food and thats it besides the hotels most of them make very little. so they dont pay much in taxes.

on the other hand , construction, delis/restaurants ,strippers , health clubs
beauty salons , pretty much any job that doesnt require english , fake papers arent necessary some are well payed Im not only talking about day laborers standing on a corner.

I wish you could all spend a month in astoria thats the only way you would see my point of view

A lot of those guys are working on fake documents. It's much more widespread than a lot of people realize. It's a substantial amount of taxes paid on it, and I don't know if Queens is like the DC area but around here, flipping burgers at McDonalds pays $10-12 an hour. As far as the jobs you mentioned, even if they're just sweeping up the floor in a beauty salon, they're probably being paid on-book, so they're either using a fake number or a stolen one. Or the employer makes up the info and hopes they don't get caught. It's hard not to pay people on-book - you have to account for the funds somewhere. Even if it's just a cleaning woman, for a small business that's still a chunk of change which the owner will pay taxes on since it can't be accounted for.

I seem to remember that the amounts we're talking nation-wide are billions of dollars worth. About $6 Billion a year that is paid in that will never go towards a beneficiary. A decent sum all in all.

Research "IRS Earning Suspense File". Interesting stuff.

I think most people who have cash businesses pay them cash, at least here anyway , and they are exploited by other foreigners usualy their own countrymen

Man, it doesn't matter. The business owners pay taxes. I'm sure they cook the books and don't report all income, but in a lot of small places labor is a big piece of costs. They have to account for that somehow. Unless they're hiding a huge percent of their income, then they'll pay the taxes the illegal would have paid on their own end - it would increase, on paper, the profits made at that business, and those profits are taxed.

If they're doing a lot of stuff off-book, coming and going, then the point of the employee being illegal or not is moot. They're paying everyone cash and not paying taxes on that end. No unemployment insurance, no social security, nothing. But then, to make it worthwhile, they need to doctor up the income side of the book to at least equal out what they're paying under the table.

Basic point - illegals and others with fake docs or with information faked by employers, they're paying in collective $6 Billion + a year that will never go towards their own benefits. It's free money in the Social Security books.

I think we are off topic but i dont think these companies are profitable so they pay no tax, obviously you disagree so we can just agree to disagree , while I understand your argument I dont agree.

I have said it before and I will say it again, I love Jon Stewart.

I don't think there are many people in the world who could match wits with him one on one.

The first video is actually a mid-way through the CNBC versus Daily Show feud. Stewart does an excellent job turning Cramer's words against him. The good stuff starts at 2:10.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=220288&title=in-cramer-we-trust

When Cramer actually comes on his show, Stewart utterly destroys him in a fashion I think puts Barbara Walters and Mike Wallace to shame. And Stewart is actually known for being quite cordial towards his guests, but he sets him up and totally destroys him, with Cramer's own words burying him.

I don't know if it is funny or sad that a comedian is providing some of the best and hardest hitting questions and commentary on the financial crisis.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=220536&title=Jim-Cramer-Pt.-1

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=220538&title=jim-cramer-pt.-2

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=220539&title=jim-cramer-pt.-3&byDate=true

And finally, I like how Stewart calls out Santelli. This is the one that started it all.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=220252&title=CNBC-Gives-Financial-Advice

Larrydavid-

The liberals just don't get it with illegals!

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp


They just want the illegals with their phony documents including phony voting cards so they control the ballor box!

God do I sound like you?

open the border, free food for everyone under 5' 5" with a bad mustache and cowboy boots , and his kids!!!!(because you know hes got some)

Off topic, but Xenono, I agree 100%. It is pretty fucking sad that a fake news show is more real than the real ones (if that makes sense). Anyway, the Cramer interview was hilarious. Talk about a deer in the headlights. You gotta know after his appearance he had thoughts of a new line of work (which would be a good idea). Not only did Stewart nail him over and over, he made more sense on the subject that I have heard in a long time on the tube.

I do think it is easy to go back and make someone look like an idiot when they made a mistake or bad call, but this one was over the top. Cramer is an idiot.

And to everyone that wants to throw it all on Bush, remember, there is a long, long line behind him. Talk about a perfect storm.

The hits just keep on coming:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090315/ap_on_bi_ge/aig_bonuses

Highlights:

"American International Group is giving its executives tens of millions of dollars in new bonuses even though it received a taxpayer bailout of more than $170 billion dollars.

The Treasury Department determined that the government did not have the legal authority to block the current payments by the company. AIG declared earlier this month that it had suffered a loss of $61.7 billion for the fourth quarter of last year, the largest corporate loss in history.

Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner has asked that the company scale back future bonus payments where legally possible, an administration official said Saturday.

This official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, said that Geithner had called AIG Chairman Edward Liddy on Wednesday"

...

"We cannot attract and retain the best and brightest talent to lead and staff the AIG businesses, which are now being operated principally on behalf of the American taxpayers — if employees believe their compensation is subject to continued and arbitrary adjustment by the U.S. Treasury," Liddy said."

Feds willy-nilly bail them out THEN FIND OUT that "oh shit, we can't fight these FUCKING RIDICULOUS BONUSES"?

Wag your finger and say, "TSK TSK, do better next year?"

And the fucking greedy scumbag crooks with their hands out have the NERVE to use the phrase "the best and the brightest"?

NOBODY fucking GETS IT, do they?

"Liddy said the company had entered into the bonus agreements in early 2008 before AIG got into severe financial straits and was forced to obtain a government bailout last fall.

The large bulk of the payments at issue cover AIG Financial Products, the unit of the company that sold credit default swaps, the risky contracts that caused massive losses for the insurer."

Cancel the fucking payments and let them appeal it to the Supreme Court 15 years down the line? At which point, common sense might dawn on somebody, uhmmm, contract law don't mean SHIT compared to a global depression and some idiots giving 9 figures in bonuses to the same idiots that torpedoed the whole market?

Ernest, Forrest and Beachman could have done a better job than the "best and the brightest"?

Funny, the peanut gallery comments that follow that yahoo article say anything and EVRYTHING I wanna say about this.

Funny that all the SPORTS ARTICLE comments say is "FIRST!"

I really hope the morning talk show staff are all over this one...

1 last vote of faith for the media?

ABC and CNN stories quite sanitized:

"AIG restructures bonuses under pressure from Treasury..."

One story doesn't even mention the "best and the brightest" line, the other buries it.

BOZOS!

ABC devoted the whole George Steph. show this AM to this story.

Responsible journalism! Vids available via yahoo.com, and I'm sure ABC News too.

60 Minutes rock. Bernanke too.

From rural South Cackalacky to 1590 on the SAT?

NICE!

It is now 6 months since the TARP and a bunch of the other bail out measures have been passed. Hell, I don't even know how many bail outs and stimulus in total have been signed. But what we do know is not one of them put a dent in the overall problem.

A famous anecdote re: "recession vs. depression":

Recession, your neighbors on both side lost their jobs, cars, houses.

Depression:

I LOST all of the above!

For anyone with MEANS, if all you lost is your 401K (last 10 years earnings), GAME ON?

Bluestraveller, I think tons of money thrown at this issue have not had an effect since it's being thrown at the wrong thing. Basically propping up failed businesses. They would be better off had they nationalized the banks and increase time and amount of unemployment compensation to reinstill confidence. Credit would have been kick started and people , businesses would be have confidence to take on more loans instead of hunkering down. That is what the IMF and world bank have been advising nations to do for years. Seems when the tables are turned we are not willing or have the political courage to do what we have been advocating of others. Imagine if this problem were happening to any other country in the world and what the IMF and World Bank advice would be.

How do you kick-start credit markets when half the banks have failed? If you're talking full nationalization, then you're talking trillions of dollars in liabilities. Why would any private source of money invest in anything at that point if the government just pays the tab?

Also, explain how unemployment insurance re-instills confidence? Here in VA, the largest amount you can collect is under $400 a week. I don't think you replace six-figure jobs with dreams of $400 a week, taxable.

That's the whole thing, take private ownership of banks out of the picture. Banks should be a repository of money and a place to get loans. The governement has been in the loan business as long as any private bank and it will instill confidence if the government is backing the deposits. Plus the governemnt could give zero interest loans to businesses as part of recovery and to keep people employed.

We need purchases to begin again. People are holding back on big ticket purchases because they have either lost a job or fear they will soon. If they know there is a safety net they may be more willing to buy things. That's direct stimulis since it puts money into peoples hands directly by passing the banks. But job creation is a different thing entirely. That would require a revamp of this nation's free trade policy.

Back to the beginning.

Lawyers are sucking the lifeblood out of the economy for their own benefit and have been for years. When property values were artificially inflated, governments increased their budgets. We need to pare back government spending not increase it.

Management brings in BODs (rubber stamped by the Shareholders) who get nice director fees. Those same directors approve salaries and non-performance based bonuses. The CEO of WAMU was allowed to remove mortgage losses from inclusion when calculating his bonus. This BS about the best and brightest will go elsewhere if they don't get their bonuses, is just that. Bonuses stopped being bonuses when they stopped being tied to performance. They are base compensation. Any executive worth having is not afraid of performance based compensation.

I listened to an interview of Geithner the other day. Anyone who called this guy a genius we must have has never met a financial genius. Geithner can barely put together a coherent sentence. No wonder the best and brightest he selected for junior positions took a pass. The only one with a clue is Bernanke. Summers needs to go back to academia where adoring and naïve students can stroke his fragile ego.

Band-aids can be put on the economic problems all day long, but a lasting solution is going to have to include reduced government waste and for the love of god a nation that stops producing lawyers like rats.

Japan was virtually a lawyer-free society through the 90's and continues to have very few lawyers as a percentage of their population.

Worked well for them as their economy certainly has been roaring.

porker , if you think bernanke rocks , check out this argument against bernankes policies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyZcaysKDF4

B-52 Ben wanted everyone to believe the problem was contained.....

Re: Bernanke, Obama, Geithner, et al., please listen carefully:

They're UBER FUCKING SMART, they're relatively un-betrothed to special interests, they seem to embody working for the public's good...

Maybe I'VE BEEN FOOLED AGAIN, (has happened before...) but I'd advise all of YOU to take criticism of the "anointed ones" and consider the motivations behind said criticism and the qualifications they draw on to level that criticism.

Grey pots are impervious to the "black" shouts?

Mr Porkage, do you ever feel like you are tossing your pearls?

obviously theyre smart, so are their critics ,unlike 99% of 60 minutes' audience but who do they work for? what are their goals?
Im not as smart as them but the predictable consequences of their actions are clear If I may quote Thomas Jefferson:

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."

Smit, I wish?

Cuomo's son makes good once again:

Cuomo said his office will investigate whether the $165 million in payments are fraudulent under state law because they were promised when the company knew it wouldn't have the money to cover them. AIG reported this month that it lost $61.7 billion in the fourth quarter of last year, the largest corporate loss in history, and it has benefited from more than $170 billion in a federal rescue.

"When a company pays funds that the company effectively doesn't have, it's akin to a looting of a company," Cuomo said. "You could argue if the taxpayers didn't bail out AIG, those contracts wouldn't be worth the paper it's printed on."

Daddy might have been president (DUKAKIS? LOL!!!) if not for those pesky skeletons...

L D, so who ya gonna bet on here?

Some dimwitted "Reagan Democrats" (AKA ANY white incumbent in the south?)

Or the TRUE "best and the brightest"

Bet on? who am I betting on? this isnt a sporting event, did you see the hearings on cspan when karshkari was up there talking about how hard treasury is working and kucinich said "Im sure youre working hard , but who are you working for?" thats it in a nutshell ,shit the only two teams are the masters and the slaves, the lords and the serfs, im betting on the lords and the masters, the slaves and the serfs are disinterested , distracted , delusional , and sadly doomed

I just left Manila and Angeles City. They are third world shitholes.

Now I am in Bangkok and this place is first world all the way.

Now I know that the United States is also a third world shithole and we can thank the war mongering republicans for that.

Hot4ass, you show your total lack of understanding and ignorance of what really happened in the financial melt down with your constant hard on for the republicans.

If you really think the US is a third world shithole, maybe you should just leave quietly, my guess is you would not be missed.

With all due to respect, Bangkok is not first world in any way, shape, or form.

Azguy,

So you are still defending one of the most corrupt and dishonest political organizations in world history? The republican party certainly facilitated the financial meltdown by a lack of oversight, orchestrating so many ways to drive the middle class into debt and fooling the middle class into putting their money into 401k funds that they could loot. The people who created all these phony financial instruments are certainly of a republican mind set.

Phillipines is largely a product of USA puppet governments and it is definitely one or two worlds behind Thailand.

As for the Bangkok shopping complexes, expressways and public transit systems. They are world class. However sidewalks and related public infrastructure certainly needs work. I have seen greater problems in many parts of the USA. Pattaya is a bit less sophisticaed. I suppose the real first world is Europe now.

The US Government will soon decide the fate of systems I have developed and whether or not I will be missed, not your call.

BTW, what makes you think that the USA would miss Azguy?

Hot4, I started to respond to you discussing all the players involved in this mess, credit default swaps, etc, the list is too long, but then realized you would not understand or believe it. Its just the fault of the big bad republicans. How simple minded can you be?

Example: I could bring up that Bernie Madoff is a life long democrat, and you would just come back with, but he was really secretly a republican or bring someone else up that is a republican that ripped people off. Boring.

You will never understand both sides are corrupt, greedy and power hungry. They just go about it in different ways. This mess is about greed and stupidity. And again, that came from a lot of people on both sides. Not just republicans.

When you focus on the bad and hate America as much as you do, you are blind to what is good. You must be fucking miserable. Have you ever thought you might be addicted to being miserable? Think about it.

I cant believe I just wasted my time typing this.

Azguy-

You hit it right on the nose!

There is no right or wrong when it come to politics and greed. There is only RIGHT and LEFT!

Both the Democrats and Republicans would rather support someone who is wrong in their party than support someone who is right in the opposite party!

When is someone finally going to stand up and say they are an American before they are a Democrat or a Republican!

Azguy:

The question is not how many Democrats or Republicans out of the 300 million or so people we have in the United States have done bad things. It is what the elected officials in each party have done that matters.

To somehow inject that Bernie Madoff is a lifetime Democrat into the conversation is silly. Should we next go check Charles Manson's voter registration (when he had one) to see which party should be held responsible for his crimes?

(Message edited by LAguy on March 18, 2009)

Azguy-

Some guys just don't get it....you just used Bernie as an example. How many people out 300 million defraud people out of 50 billion dollars plus. It is the Bernie Madoffs of the country that bribe and corrupt our elected officials both Democrats and Republicans to look the other way and break the laws to get their wealth while the rest of us have to play by the rules.


Look at Dodd and Frank play innocent that they have no ideal how AIG used Bailout money to pay bonuses. The can't blame Bush for that one...not that Bush isn't guilty himself for not calling these guys out!

Laguy, you just made my point. thanks

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090318/pl_politico/30833


Dodd is corrupt and an idiot!


He says the stimulus bill was unanimously adopted by the US Senate.....37 Republicans voted against it!


How does the media let him get away with statements like that!

Wank, wank, wank, wank. Sigh.

AZguy, both parties are equally corrupt. You are right on the money...

The only way to purge the corrupt is through the slow-moving trainwreck that is on-going.

dollar index was down 3% since ben shalom bernanke decided to print 1.2 trillion .the entire state is a joke, why dont we all pool our money buy an island and start a new country? im in as long as it isnt a democracy .

If we using the definition that economists and political scientists use, both the Philippines and Thailand are classified as "newly industrialized countries."

That is "NICs are countries whose economies have not yet reached first world status but have, in a macroeconomic sense, outpaced their developing counterparts. Another characterization of NICs is that of nations undergoing rapid economic growth (usually export-oriented). Incipient or ongoing industrialization is an important indicator of a NIC. In many NICs, social upheaval can occur as primarily rural, agricultural populations migrate to the cities, where the growth of manufacturing concerns and factories can draw many thousands of laborers."

The list also includes China, South Africa, Mexico, Brazil, Turkey, India and Malaysia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newly_industrialized_country

Laguy, its funny you picked Charles Manson, because he was a very well known and very active Democrat.

Again, you totally missed my point. You pick out a minor point because you can make it political. The point was this mess was mostly not political, it was about greed and blind optimism that things would only go up. Greed from wallstreet, underwriters, rating agencies, the GSE's, lenders, brokers and yes politicians, plus all the regular folks that over bought, over leveraged and sit here trying to make it someones fault other than theirs. Throw in a little incompetence and arrogance from the government, Greenspan keeping rates too low for too long, political favors, deregulation, credit default swaps, lenders coming up with stupid ass option ARM's, lenders being mandated by the government to make loans to people that could not afford them, etc, etc, etc. and you have got yourself a big fucking mess that will be with us for a long time.

Laguy, I know you think I am a republican, but I am not. What I am is a capitalist. I dont look for the government or any political party to solve shit for me. Fuck them. I have and always will take care of myself.

The biggest difference in you and I is that you think government is here to help you. I dont.

Here I am once again letting myself get sucked into political discussions on a mongering site. What the fuck am I doing? The bottom line is you are not going to understand my side, nor I yours. and it does not matter.

99% of what the politician do has little effect on me. If they raise, wait... when they raise my taxes I will do like all good capitalists, I will just make a little more money and move on with my day. Hopefully, head down to SA, get some ass and live happily ever after.

BTW, I have no idea if Manson is a democrat, with that crazy ass look in his eyes, he could go either way.

It is precisely because people are greedy that you need such things as government regulation. I laughed my ass off when Bush tried to blame greed on Wall Street for the economic crisis rather than his own anti-regulation policies. You don't need government regulation because if left alone people are altruistic and will always do the right thing looking out for others as well as themselves. The whole premise (or, at least, a good part of the premise) of government regulation, the type the Republicans reject, is to control greed.

So, in a way, AZguy, by focusing on human greed you are making MY point.

It is intellectually dishonest to blame everything related to the economic mess we face on human greed without considering that the Republicans not only fail to see the need for the government to take steps to control human greed, but they often actively encourage it.

A lot of Republicans are actually blaming "Democratic policies that forced banks to make mortgages to poor people". Yeah, that did it.

But of course government itself is composed of greedy individules. Increasing the size of government relinquishes my own greed to the will of other greedy individules. I consider a Senator or a Congressman kind of like a CEO or an executive of a large WallStreet bank excetpt for one difference. They have the authority to have me thrown in jail if I don't 'invest' in their firm. That makes the greedy individules in Washington much more dangerous than the greedy individules on WallStreet.

Capitalism when done correctly tends to harness greed and turn it into a positive force. IE I work harder and smarter because I can get more money that way therefore my contribution is greater. Socialism kills initiative. IE I'm supposed to work harder and smarter to elevate the people....... fuck that....what's in it for me....... I'm taking off early today and going to the beach.

Sancho, WTF? Members of the legislative branch as CEO's? ROFLMOA. Elected office is one of the select few occupations that doesn't hire on qualifications, only popularity.

Hot4, "the masses are asses" (suggested tag line before anyone reads your posts) Both parties are equally guilty. What politicians are very adept at is polarizing the masses so they fight with each other and ignore the real problem; the incompetence of our elected officials.

the acrimonious atmosphere in DC will not change until ALL districts in congress are redrawn to reflect the "centrist" stance of the populace, instead of the current gerrymandering of districts to guarantee it's vote to a particular party.

Hot 4, your irational loyalty to the dems blinds you to the real problem with our elected officials. Step back, exhale, and look at the big picture. Why do you blindly drink the koolade Obama, Pelosi, Clinton and others offer? Come on! I think your smarter than that.

Looks like Dodd is now pointing fingers at Obama and Geithner. May they will explain it on Leno tonight instead of Meet the Press on Sunday!

Greed will always exist in our society and all other societies in the world. There is nothing that we can do about that. I do not believe that greed played a function in this mess because it was constant - before, during and after.

The mess, in my view, are created by two things, everything else is derivative.

1. Greenspan. Keeping interest rates artificially low by printing money as a surrogate for economic growth. Greenspan is the bubble architect. If Greenspan had taken a more conservative or prudent approach, none of this would have happened.

2. Credit Default Swaps. This should never have been allowed to exist, much less permeate every crevice of our financial system. AIG was basically writing a bunch of checks that they could never cash. It seems so obvious now, but regulations must be put in place (were they previously removed) to ensure that this NEVER happens again.

Everything else is secondary. The ratings agencies, the low income housing initiatives, greed in the financial sector, sickening CEO compensation, etc.

Yea. I get to chose between the guy who is most popular because a bunch of special interests gave him allot of money, or the other guy who is most popular because a bunch of different special interests gave him allot of money. I didn't give either one of them personally allot of money so I got nothin' coming. I'd just prefer to limit their power over me.

Credit Default Swaps as perpetrated by AIG et al come across to me as massive criminal fraud under existing statutes and should be prosecuted as such. Fraud. Plain and simple. That was and is against the law. Prosecute it.

The ratings agencies as well. Putting a AAA rating on obvious crap for the purpose of getting money is plain ordinary criminal fraud. No new regulations required. Just enforce the existing laws. Simply call criminal fraud what it is and imprison the perpetrators.

Sancho, couldn't agree more, but, sadly, will never happen. If the public knew how incompetent and complicit the government over-site institutions were in letting this happen, we would have anarchy. Again it goes back to the most popular, non-qualified, officials who march step-to-step with a national media that has become adept at passifying the masses.

I want to see Glass-Steagall back into place, and most of the regulations that were killed off the last 10-12 years. The boys back in the early part of the last century are looking smarter and smarter. Even without a fiat ruling to break up, I think a lot of the mergers of the 90s and earlier this decade are bound for divorce anyway. Mixing commercial banking, private banking, securities trading, mortgage origination, mortgage pooling, insurance, etc all in one is a recipe for disaster.

Cat, I didn't know they made Glass Seagulls, where can I buy one?

Cat, you pick one item out of a long laundry list of players. It looks like you are trying to attribute this quote to me: "Democratic policies that forced banks to make mortgages to poor people" this is what I said "lenders being mandated by the government to make loans to people that could not afford them" Are you saying that did not happen? Again, one item out of many.

This is why I have to stay out of these conversations.

No, that's just a general opinion on a lot of conservative blogs these days.

this may be the worst idea ive heard in a while,check out this idiot . Do any of these guys understand the difference between price and value? until home prices drop and wages rise there will still be an over supply


http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-
ticker/article/212121/Plan-to-Solve-Crisis-Let-Immigrants-Buy-Houses?tickers=XHB,TLT,TOL,DHI,PHM,UUP,^DJI?sec=topStories&pos=8&asset=TBD&ccode=TBD

Larry David,

For me this idea is a good thing. It seems like they have gone through all the bad ideas, and now they are floating up truly horrible ideas.

Once we go through the horrible ideas, then they will give up, and then the economy can go through the process of healing.

The link below is to Barney Frank's rebuttal to the charge the Democrats were responsible, or at least as responsible as the Republicans, for the financial meltdown. Although it may be easy for Republicans to escape any accountability for their own negligence in this matter by claiming Barney Frank and the Democrats are just engaging in partisan politics, this is a cop out and doesn't further an understanding of the facts. Either Barney Frank's analysis is right, more right than wrong, more wrong than right, or just wrong.

I'd like to hear from those of you who disagree with the analysis what is wrong or misleading about it. Although I have my biases, this is an honest question I am asking.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-barney-frank/is-there-an-antidote-to-t_b_176538.html

The Huffington Post? This is where you get your news Laguy? No wonder you have your talking points down so well. that is just as bad as using Fox News as a source.

BTW, I dont think anyone here is saying the democrats were mostly responsible for what happened as it related to the financial mess. If you are saying dems are completely innocent you are in denial.

Azguy,

Sorry do not have time to be miserable right now, having too much fun in Pattaya.

My loyalty to Democratic Party ideals stems from the FACT that republicans are the party of greed and hatred. That is what is destroying America.

If you think that playing the sensitivities of religeous kooks with abstinence, abortion and gays to find enough votes is good for America, then you are courting misery.

If you think that playing the sensitivities of xenophobes by painting every latino as an illegal immigrant, then you are courting misery.

If you think that devestating a persons future because of medical misfortune is good economic policy, then you are courting misery.

If you really are an Arizona guy and know diddly squat about what the republican dominated legislature is doing to the children of our state, then you might recognize misery.

However, you say that you are just a capitalist just in it for himself. If so, you have no soul and no compassion for human suffering. Good government needs to protect the masses from people like you and I just don't see the GOP doing that.

BTW: I knew Madoff tossed a lot of money to Democrats, but it was Bush and company that turned the SEC into a uselesss agency and allowed this mess to happen

hot4ass, who are these "latinos" and where are they from? Do they speak vulgar latin? are they from rome? or maybe theyre romainians ?

I think you mean mexicans or native americans I never understood what the hell latino meant

LD,

Latino is a bullshit word made up by mestizo immigrants. Hispanic basically means "from Iberia" which is a pretty good description of the settlers of Central/South America and Mexico. Spanish heritage basically. But, a lot of mestizos didn't like that since their ancestors never set foot on the Iberian peninsula and thus, we have the birth of "latino". It's all part of the "white man is evil" bullshit theory.

Brasilians aren't really latinos, at least as far as the US Census bureau is concerned. I would never call a brasilero a latino, and whatever you do, never insult an actual Spaniard or Portuguese by calling them latino either.

While Portuguese is really Lusitanian pig latin and Spanish is castillian pig latin, I really find it hard to call them latinos. No more so than calling anyone of French, Italian or Romanian descent as latino either.

get outta here!!!! I thought I was missing something, I was never good at geography , so what your telling me is that the nice guy with the gold ring around his dark grey front tooth and the nice, thick head of hair who works at my local pizzaria isnt hispanic? I had a sneaking suspicion that he wasnt italian either, the place is called robertos so its difficult to tell im fucking confused

"The Huffington Post? This is where you get your news Laguy?"

Anyone with any sense would know I was not presenting "Barney Frank's rebuttal" as "news."

So far no one here has contradicted anything Frank said. Just the usual right-wing invective to distract from the issues.

LD,

But here's the rub - if you're white Mexican from a lot of these countries, they'll call themselves hispanic most of the time. Which is accurate, since they are primarily Spanish with probably a bit of other things.

hot4, first of all, I am hesitant to respond to you because you are a bit of a whacko.

I am only going to respond to the one thing you directed at me, because the rest of it didnt make much sense.

Maybe you cant fucking read, but I said I was a capitalist. I said I would just make more money, pay the extra taxes and move on and have a happy life. And I am the guy that you need to be protected against? I think it is the other way around. Do you even know what a capitalist is? oh, thats right, to you, that is the bad guy. No wonder you are so miserable, you are living in the wrong country. I didnt say I was in it for myself, I said I dont need the government to take care of me. I understand you do, so good luck with that.

Wow, I cant believe I have just wasted this much time on you.

Changing topics back to the economy. Here's an article that I enjoyed reading. It is a long read, but his arguments are cogent and also a little frightening. His underlying message is that we should be worried as Americans. Then I have to ask myself, how can I possible trust a band with my money.

BT, where is the article?

for whoever has the time , here is a great interview parts 1-5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4Dl7JTLEQs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3kCKebUkew

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LKZG2ShgXY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBtGwXKvas4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp2EmOzxhV8

AZGUY, you are right he is a whacko, anyone that far left, or right can't think for himself anyway. Parties play both sides against each other and then take for themselves. Anyone believing in a political party is fooling him/herself.

living in the land of lincoln, and prior to that the SF Bay Area, even though I am registered as a Democrat, the democratic party here will not hesitate to fuck you over, it is all about who knows who.

The best thing any of us can do when it comes to politics is to try and find someone running with a bit of integrity.

Sorry guys. Here is the link. Great read.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26793903/the_big_takeover/1

Thanks AZ, LD, Whitty & BT.....you guys are on the right track...we may have crossed the rubicon this week.....have a great weekend.....

I am still holding out hope for Obama because I think he does have integrity. This is just my opinion, but I think he is getting the same treatment Jimmy Carter got from his own party. The difference is Obama is much more likable and people on both sides will stand with him. He needs some time to figure out how not to be controlled (if I am right). Now, if I am wrong and he goes way left, not good.

What concerns me is he is trying to do too much at one time. I know he wants to get a lot done, but I think it is a mistake not to focus on the economy and getting out of the middle east.

Whitty, you are correct, anytime you get too far in either direction, it is not good for anyone. I am not sure what constitutes "far left" and "far right", but I just wonder how many people consider themselves in the middle? Cat, I am sure you have some thoughts on this. How would you count them?

Hey financial guys, do you think we will have a bunch of bear rallys spread out over the next year, while ticking lower over time? anyone think we will get into the 5k area?

When I start posting more on political bullshit than on girls, its time for a trip.

BT, thanks for the article. The guy nailed it. Plus, I really liked his writing style.

Maybe I missed it, but the only thing I didnt see was any comment regarding the lack of underwriting by institutional buyers. These guys are supposedly sophisticated groups that didnt do their homework. Or maybe they relied too much on the rating agencies. Anybody know?

The second to the last paragraph he made a statement I have been wondering about myself for quite a while now:

"Actually, come to think of it, why are we even giving taxpayer money to you people? Why are we not throwing your ass in jail instead?"

Talk about allowing weasels guard the hen house, Paulson and Geithner should be the first in line to the big house. Well, right after Cassano. Hell, now that I think about it, we may need to build a new prison.

Well, Obama is extremely intelligent, well-spoken, driven and has never really known failure. Basically, he's going to have to fail some to learn to really govern. I've been pretty happy so far, but he does need to prioritize things. He certainly needs to focus on more than one thing at a time - the Bushies never could get past that low hurdle - but he's trying to focus fully on a half-dozen big things at a time. That's too much.

While the health system is hurting, the budget situation, Social Security, etc, I think he can slow roll that stuff for at least six months and focus on the economy and Middle East. Everyone has to understand that any sort of stimulus, any type of economic changes in general, take months to kick in. You don't flip a switch and suddenly it's 1999 again. So far they've done a lot about a lot of different options, and some patience is going to be needed. That doesn't mean sit back and hope for the best, but it does mean that every week, you don't have to start moving variables that are the economy up and down. Cutting interest rates, cranking up fiscal policy, cranking up monetary policy, manipulating mortgage rates, all of this is probably needed. But, from an econometrics standpoint, I'm not sure they can 1)track what's working and not and 2) know how much each is working or not.

Econometrics is the study of change, cause and effect. You have 5 variables in an equation, you change one and see not how it changes the result but more importantly, how it changes the other variables to keep the result static. It's regression analysis.

I think the current machinations are generally good, but they're too reactive to the panic fears the population has. In other words, while good at their core, they're being used partly as window dressing to keep The Great Unwashed from going totally nuts. I would like to see a more controlled roll-out of the plans, but I think in the end we'll pull out of this mess nicely. There's too much monetary and fiscal stimulus to not kick in, it's just a matter of time before people start spending again. I hope it's responsible spending this time, and people need to cut back on spending more than they make.

AZ Guy,

I believe that people should be in jail for what is going on. That said, we are so far away from the reality that it will never happen.

After pondering everything that has happened in the last 9 months, and reading that article, I have come to a horrible conclusion. The US financial system is rotten at its core. I got my MBA at the University of Texas, and I took a course 100% about money. I learned that our banking and financial system is all about trust. We trust them with our money to keep it safe. THEY HAVE BROKEN THAT TRUST. Sorry guys, but all the bail out money in the world will not restore my trust in this system. That is the fundamental problem. People no longer trust the system. Furthermore, trust is declining not increasing.

When I think about it, what is the real difference between AIG and Madoff? Both have deep ties to Wall Street. Both led incredibly lavish life styles. Both were well trusted (to a fault). The only difference is that Madoff knew he was a crook, and the guys at AIG somehow want to paint themselves as victims. Our government is complicit. They think AIG is the good guy worthy of a bail out, and Madoff should go to jail.

I believe what AIG did was criminal. They were writing checks they thought no one would cash. And as long as no one cashed them, they were the richest people on the planet. How is that different than Madoff?

Our banking system is rotten at the core. I work hard for my money. These jack asses don't. They view it almost as an entitlement.

the banking system really does suck , I wonder what other type of system would work in a world of over 6 billion people? Is a gold/silver standard even possible/desireable? I did some math and I think I did it right , the entire world produces about 2500 tons of gold per year I heard the stat from a european commentator so it may be metric but whatever I did the math using standard , so maybe im off by 120% but anyway even at todays nearly record highs for gold +/- 5% thats only $33,600,000,000.00. that means if they fixed the price of gold today at 30 dollars a gram they could only increase the world money supply by 33.6 billion dollars per year, if no gold were used in industry or jewelry , and if it were strict and banks only made loans of 9x their reserves,credit could only grow by 300 odd billion a year. Up until 1971 it was 35 dollars and OUNCE which is 31 or 28 times more than a gram , It just goes to show how much inflation weve had since they ended bretton woods and went on the debt money system.

Good time to start printing as this slope gets STEEPER starting now.....

eventually we will be forced with very hard choices if something isnt done , it may sound crazy but sterilization and euthanasia shouldn't be ruled out Id say offer male high school seniors 50,000 dollars to be neutered, and anyone over 65 that volunteers 250k or so to have somekind of small bomb implanted somewhere in their head that would detonate and kill them instantly without pain. The euthanasia would take care of the future liabilities, and the neutering will help cleanse the gene pool and make education more affordable.

LD, I know that was tongue in cheek, but its a little scary you actually thought that through a bit. : )

Cat, it concerns me when we agree. Only thing is, it is hard to do a regression analysis on human behavior. Especially when fear is involved.

BT, it doesn't help that politicians are in bed with these guys. Although some dont want to admit it, both sides are dirty as hell. As it relates to AIG it started with Graham, Rangel, Dodd, and I am sure a dozen more.

You are dead on, the trust is lost. For example, it like sometimes you think you have true love, and then you catch the early flight home from San Diego, and a couple of nude people jump out of your bathroom blindfolded like a goddamn magic show, ready to double-team your girlfriend... (Old School).. anyway how can you trust her again? you cant.

Lastly, the problem with cutting entitlements is that politically, you are fucked if you do and no one has the guts to do it.

Have fun boys, AZ

That post wasnt serious , but I can dream cant I?

LD,
you're scaring the hell out of the senior membership, stop it!


CFK

well I didnt wanna scare anyone ,I dont think anyone here would qualify , and I really wasnt clear. The 65 year old would get the implant and it would be detonated sometime within 24 and 36 months afterward , so they could spend the dough and not know when ist coming, if they knew it would be cruel and unusual , but nobody here would volunteer they obviously have too much to live for , only those who are desperate would take the deal but i'd sign up just for the good of the economy.

CFK, consider yourself fucked if LD's idea gets any traction in the new administration.

What age did old timers get the video and drug treatment in "Soylent Green"? LD left that out of his equation. Personally, if they tried to use Hemp or CFK for Soylent Green, that batch would undoubtedly taste like shit.

Cat, I'm off to read the obituary, like I do every day, meanwhile stare at this and keep repeating CFK, CFK, CFK

At least Obamarama got rid of Rick Wagner before the quasi bankrupcty, or whatever the hell they plan to call it.

Hopefully a few heads will roll in banks, but not before they make a few hundred million.

"One wonders if Phil Gramm has been made just a tad nervous by the news on Tuesday that one of UBS's super-wealthy private clients has pleaded guilty to tax evasion. That's the second case in two weeks involving the bank at which the former senator is a vice chairman, and 100 other clients are under investigation for possible bank-assisted tax fraud.

Gramm, the Republican former chair of the Senate Finance Committee, where he authored much of the deregulatory legislation at the heart of the current banking meltdown, has for the six years since he left office helped lead a foreign-owned bank specializing in tax dodges for the wealthy. These schemes by the Swiss-based UBS not only force the rest of us taxpayers to pay more to make up the government revenue shortfall but are blatantly illegal. In February, UBS admitted to having committed fraud and conspiracy and agreed to pay a fine of $780 million. Republican "Tea Baggers" take note: Offshore tax havens do not equal populist revolt.

In the UBS "deferred prosecution agreement" with the Justice Department, the bank agreed to turn over the names of its secret account holders to avoid a criminal indictment. The complicity of top executives in this far-ranging scheme to use foreign tax havens to cheat the US treasury of billions in uncollected taxes was noted at the time in a Justice Department statement: "Swiss bankers routinely traveled to the United States to market Swiss bank secrecy to United States clients interested in attempting to evade United States income taxes."

What did Gramm think all of those Swiss bankers from his firm were doing over here? Was he totally clueless? The Justice Department statement suggests otherwise: "UBS executives knew that UBS's cross-border business violated the law. They refused to stop this activity, however, and in fact instructed their bankers to grow the business. The reason was money--the business was too profitable to give up. This was not a mere compliance oversight, but rather a knowing crime motivated by greed and disrespect of the law."

Cobra-

52 cards and 2 Jokers? Looks like a whole pack of Jokers!

Joker and pillowbiter

Apparently the American Medical Association has weighed in on the new economic stimulus package....

The Allergists voted to scratch it, but the Dermatologists advised not to make any rash moves.

The Gastroenterologists had sort of a gut feeling about it, and the Neurologists thought the Administration had a lot of nerve.

The Obstetricians felt they were all laboring under a misconception. Ophthalmologists considered the idea shortsighted.

Pathologists yelled, "Over my dead body!" while the Pediatricians said, 'Oh, Grow up!'

The Psychiatrists thought the whole idea was madness, while the Radiologists could see right through it.

Surgeons decided to wash their hands of the whole thing. The Internists thought it was a bitter pill to swallow, and the Plastic Surgeons said, "This puts a whole new face on the matter."

The Podiatrists thought it was a step forward, but the Urologists were pissed off at the whole idea.

The Anesthesiologists thought the whole idea was a gas, and the Cardiologists didn't have the heart to say no.

In the end, the Proctologists won out, leaving the entire decision up to the assholes in Washington .

Six-figure government salaries abound in Bay Area

http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci_13226767?source=rss

A good start. This is what needs to happen across America. My economic advisors tell me that next year is going to be a tough one for government employess with salary reductions and the cutting back of hours. Want to know where your money goes, inflated governmental personnel costs. Keep in mind that a lot of the numbers only represent salaries, not benefits and not what is paid into retirement funds.

Universities also are cutting out programs. Let's hope that they start to realize the drain that the legal profession is on the economy and close a few law schools. Next make the state bar exams a little more difficult than writing your name and we might see some real improvements in the economy. I found it amusing that even a trial lawyer found lawyers' $2.5 million in fees for this Experian class action suit offensive.

http://overlawyered.com/2007/02/experian-class-action-settlement/