Cause: A family of viruses called the Human Papilloma Viruses (HPV). The viruses that cause regular warts belongs in this family of viruses, but is not the same as the ones that cause venereal warts (also called 'condylomas').

Incubation Period: Between a month to a year, although some cases have taken longer to show up. That means that you could have it and not know it until a long time later.

Transmission: Warts are pretty easy to get, and it's estimated that at least one-fourth of the people in this country carry the virus but don't show symptoms (you can't tell they have it).

You can get warts by intimate skin contact through such acts as insertive or receptive oral, anal, and vaginal sex. Also, intimate skin contact such as dry humping, and any genital-to-genital contact, even without penetration, can transmit the virus that causes warts.

Secondary contact can transmit the disease as well. For example, fondling, foreplay, and petting will all transmit the virus pretty well. It's best to ask your partners if they've ever had warts. Even so, some people can have it and pass it on without knowing it (if the warts are too small to see). Secondary contact is how some people autoinoculate themselves--that is, they spread it to other parts of their body just by touching a wart and touching some other part of their body.

Finally, women who have warts in the birthing canal can pass the disease on to their baby during birth. Babies can be infected on their genitals, but this is rare. Babies usually get warts in their throat from birth.

What to Look For: Venereal warts can grow in the mouth, the throat, the genitalia, the anus, and the perineum. They look like cauliflowers: bumpy and fleshy. They are painless but can grow so big that they block your urethra, vagina, anus, or throat.

But warts can also be so small that you can't see them. Of course you can still spread them even if you can't see them. Your health provider takes vinegar and soak a suspicious area, and then looks at the area with a magnifying glass--the vinegar turns the warts white and makes them more visible.

Treatment: Warts can be burned off with laser, or frozen, or treated with chemicals. This gets rid of them for a while. Often, they come back (they recur) for a long time--sometimes for life. That's because they become latent and can hide in your skin. They may disappear without treatment, but don't count on it. Trichloracetic acid, Podophyllin, and Fluorouracil are the names of three major drugs used to get rif of warts. There's also a new cream called Imiquimod that's supposed to cure it about 65% of the time.

Contact your health provider as soon as you think you may have gotten an STD; the sooner you are treated, the better your chances of recovery, and it is less likely you will get complications. Also, have your partners checked out, and stop having sex until you get better. Otherwise, you and your partners could keep passing the disease back and forth to each other.

Complications: The wart virus has been shown to cause cervical cancer in women, and in many cases, cancer of the penis and anus. Early treatment lowers this risk! It is VERY important to get examined often if you are sexually active. This means cervical pap smears for woment, and anal pap smears if you've had them in the anus.

Is it possible to catch HPV without sex? Like, from a swimming pool?

From what I gather, when they are talking about spreading warts though secondary contact they are still talking about skin to skin contact just not �sex�.

Such as say; I go the pee and touch a wart on my body, I don�t wash my hand, then I see you in the hall and shack your hand and the you go to the bathroom. The virus goes from my wart to my hand, from my to your hand, from your hand to your genitals.

For the love of all that is good and decent!
Wash your freaking hands!!!

My 'friend' claims that she caught HPV in a swimming pool.

Explorer8939 said: "Is it possible to catch HPV without sex? Like, from a swimming pool?"

I think it depends on who the pool was sleeping with.

It's about time for some updated, accurate information on this condition, versus the crap that's been spewed around here by a couple guys.

Thank you for contacting the National HPV and Cervical Cancer Prevention
Resource Center, a program of the American Social Health Association (ASHA).
We are glad to be of service to you. We apologize for the delay in
responding to your e-mail and will try to provide a thorough response to
your questions.

It is estimated that 75-80% of sexually active people in the United States
have or have had some type(s) of HPV. Some types of HPV cause genital warts
while other types, not related to genital warts, can cause cellular changes
in the cells of a woman's cervix. The majority of people with HPV do not
have visible symptoms.

With regard to your specific questions:

1) It isn't completely clear from your email that you have been diagnosed
with genital warts. The types of HPV associated with external genital warts
are referred to as "low-risk", meaning there is no known cancer risk. The
"high-risk" types of HPV which are linked with cancer (primarily cervical
cancer) basically do not create symptoms in males; a man would typically
never have medical confirmation that he has this type of HPV. At this time,
it is true that there are no widely available HPV tests for men. There are
diagnostic tools used in research groups which are not commercially
available; many of these require a great deal of expertise to administer and
are presently not approved for wide-spread screening. The National HPV
Resource Center has no information as to where these tests may be obtained.
Their usage is primarily confined to research.

2) There is no figure that quantifies the percentage of infectivity that may
exist with HPV after a set period of time (as it is very difficult to study
asymptomatic infection). Many experts feel that for most people HPV is not a
persistent infection, and it would not be the norm to remain permanently
infectious or to have long-term recurrences of HPV-related growths. The
immune system is thought to assert itself at some point and actually reduce
the virus to very low levels. Many researchers believe that it is unlikely
the virus will be transmitted once this natural suppression has occurred.
The time frame for this immune response to occur is usually expressed in
months (as opposed to years) after the last occurrence of growths. There is
no way to predict, however, exactly when this natural suppression takes
place and the virus may be contagious in the meantime. Studies (such as the
one you mentioned) offer evidence of this immune response. It isn't clear if
this means HPV is actually cleared from the infected cells, or merely
reduced to very low levels that are difficult to detect. Again, the bottom
line is that HPV is not thought to be a persistent infection in most cases.
The HPV Resource Center does not have detailed information about specific
studies but back issues of our quarterly newsletter, HPV News, do contain
references to them as you discovered on the Web site.

3) As for bolstering the immune system, there is nothing in particular that
studies have shown to be effective regarding the suppression of HPV per se.
Sometimes very simple things may be helpful: not smoking or drinking to
excess, managing stress and getting enough rest, eating a healthy diet and
exercising, and perhaps taking a multi-vitamin. While these things are not
therapies for HPV itself, their value may lie in their ability to keep the
immune system working at peak efficiency.

4) With "high-risk" HPV, it is correct that most women do not develop
cervical cancer. Researchers and physicians believe that the majority of
cases of abnormal cell growth can be treated before the infection has time
to progress to cervical cancer. According to the National Cancer Institute,
about half of women with newly diagnosed cervical cancer have never had a
Pap smear. And another 10% have not had a Pap smear in the past five years
(where the virus has had time to progress to cervical cancer). Because cell
division is an ongoing process, cervical cancer does not develop overnight.
Keep in mind that most cases of mild cervical dysplasia resolve on their
own. The most important issue is for a woman to continue to have follow-up
visits with her health care provider.

It is important to understand that someone with HPV is not alone. HPV is
very prevalent in the United States. As stated previously, it is estimated
that 75-80% of sexually active people in the U.S. have or have had some
type(s) of HPV. For most people HPV does not cause great physical harm.
Being diagnosed with an STD can trigger many emotions. However, these
issues are often due to the many misconceptions that surround STDs. Many
people find that once they have gained factual, accurate, and reliable
information many of those fears subside in time. We have an abundant amount
of resources on HPV. Please feel free to call ASHA's National HPV Hotline
(see below) to gain more information or to receive written pamphlets.

We hope you find this information helpful. If you have further questions or
concerns about HPV, please call ASHA's National HPV Hotline at (919)
361-4848. This hotline operates 2 p.m. to 7 p.m., Eastern Time, Monday
through Friday.

Sincerely,

National HPV and Cervical Cancer Prevention Resource Center

This all seems like very good stuff. The information all seems reasonable and is presented in a measured, non-inflammatory manner. ASHA is a very legitimate respected organization.

A couple of things I didn't know before but nothing I would disagree with.

Just my worthless opinion.

I give kudos to Neverana for investigating this topic, requesting this info, and posting the response.

So the bottom line is that probably everyone on this board actually has this disease, but that, as a guy, there is no impact other than the consequences that you could recieve if you pass this along to a significant other. Since there is no cure per se, what do you suggest that we do?

As for myself, I will get some exercise and manage my stress levels by going down to TJ and boinking some chicas.

Mongers should get a regular checkup. Those with regular girl friends might want to go to their doctors with the girl. Remember some STDs have a latency period.

Dman,

You presumption is not entirely correct. True, most people have been exposed to it (some strain). The strain(s) that cause the cauliflower looking warts on your pubes that your doctor will freeze off DO NOT lead to cervical cancer in females. Other undetectable strains do. This is good news because you do not need to worry about causing cervical cancer in a mate just because you had a wart.

The good news here is that the is IS considered CURED when the wart is gone. The better news is that if you had a wart and got treatment you are not necessarily a carrier of the nasty strain that can lead to cervical cancer in fems.

As to HPV w/o warts that lead to cerv. cancer: they can't detect it. So?

Thanks to Nevervana for researching and sharing this.

I have never had anything that left me a symptom, so what does that mean? I was being partially facetious, but the reality is actually rather grim for us: i.e. we can't tell if we have this, and we probably do. My conjecture is, if 75-80% of the sexually active populace has this, what chance is there that someone who regularly mongers in TJ would be one of the 20-25% of the GENERAL POPULACE who are free of this particular virus. I expect that most of us mongers are in the same boat. And, I would point out, just because you had a strain that causes warts, doesn't mean that you haven't ALSO a the strain that doesn't, and therefore DOES possibly cause Cervical Cancer in females. So what is there to do, besides encourage the ladies in your life to get their PAP smears on a regular basis.

It is entirely possible that HPV is as prevalent in US gals, gringas, not necessarily sex workers, as it may be with putas. Personally, I think there is more risk in having unprotected (gf) sex with a US gal you meet at the beach than there is in having protected sex with a puta.

Perhaps Shy Guy or Dr. Dick could weigh in on this thread.

I'll preface this by saying, I certainly don't KNOW, I'm just guessing, but unless the virus is actually carried by the semen, I would assume that a condom isn't much help - after all, you don't generally have the entire base of your tool covered, and certainly some of this touches some of her panocha. I would assume that warts is transmitted topically, i.e., by skin to skin contact. If that is the mechanism, I'd bet on the U.S. beach babe being at least SLIGHTLY less likely to have the virus than a puta in TJ, because the TJ puta would be pretty darn near 100% certain to carry the virus.

The virus is only contracted by skin to skin contact. Semen doesn't transmit it. The virus itself adheres to a "victims" skin through microscopic abrasions in the skin which may or may not be present. They must be present in order for it to lodge itself there however, and set up shop.

The only way to get cervical cancer from this virus is for a man to have an occurrance of the virus on the shaft of his penis near the tip, and has unprotected sex with a woman, delivering the virus via skin to skin contact between his penis and her cervix. As you may have guessed, the chances of that happening are even more slim.

90% of warts and infections on men occurr on the shaft. Mine happen to be at the base of my shaft right where the condom stopped covering (thanks a lot condoms! Not!) ... but unless I self infect myself further up my penis, and have unprotected sex, I can't transmit a high risk "type" to a woman's cervix.

You are right to assume that if a guy has warts, or if a guy is even sexually active at all, he very possibly has a type that doesn't generate warts. Especially if he is having sex with countless women who have sex with countless men.

Infection and reinfection of this virus is incredibly high (considering 80% of people have it already) and still the rate of cervical cancer is incredibly low. Even among women who have been diagnosed with a high risk strain, it takes between 20 and 50 years for that strain to cause complications, and that is assuming her immune system does not handle the strain on its own. 81% of women diagnosed with cervical dysplasia test negative for it 8 months later because their immune system took care of it. The 20% that go on to keep it typically test negative after a couple years, and among the remaining percent who still have it, they would have to have *ZERO* paps done in order for them to not detect a problem. This is why a HUGE % of women who die of cervical cancer are in low income or minority groups. The reason for this is because, quite simply, they don't get regular exams.

Those are the facts.

Yes it sucks for men. There are no tests whatsoever for men to determine if they have a non-wart-creating type of HPV, and even if they do have warts, there are no tests to determine what strain they are carrying, EVEN THOUGH all the strains (well over 100 now) have been numbered and identified.

Thus, considering we are the ones who give this virus to women, we have no way of educating ourselves on whether we have a high risk strain and should abstain, or just a harmless strain (or two, or three) that will never cause complications for any woman we're with. Its a rather shitty position to be in.

What to do from here forward then? Well I read some articles and studies, and the people in charge of national health didn't deem the risk big enough to even bother investing money to develop diagnostic tests for men with HPV. That was comforting to read I suppose.

What they're focusing on is development of creams and lotions which prevent transmission, as well as a vaccine.

Having fully educated myself with all the facts (versus the destructive alarm-causing propoganda people like to spread on STD's), I have decided that it is in my best interest, and in the best interest of the woman I eventually marry, for me to take a break from sex for a minimum of one year. There is no guarantee this will help, but the stats are all we have to go by, and the stats state that it takes approximately 5-12 months for HPV Virus antibodies to make their way to your skin and deal with the virus.

The reason it takes so long isn't because the virus is so strong and formidable. Its quite simply because the virus exists on the outer layer of your skin, and your body doesn't even get notified that there is a problem for quite some time. Even then it takes time for your body to start excreting these things through the many layers of your skin to reach the virus.

The stats state that any sexually active woman should be tested for HPV. That verifies how prominent it is. The stats also imply that if you're fucking hundreds of women who fuck 20 guys a night, you're probably (and im probably) carrying a hell of a lot of strains of this shit. As for me, im taking a break from sex, working on my immune system strength, and giving my body time to deal with it.

I also strongly suggest some dipshit gets off his ass and creates a condom that covers more than the shaft of the penis. They could almost eliminate new cases of Herpes, HPV, and Molluscum in less than 5 years if everyone used such a condom. They wouldn't be popular, but they would be effective, and enable guys who enjoy TJ to LITERALLY do so without *ANY* regrets and ANY skin born STD's....

Anyone got the money to invest in such a product? You'll be rich in 1 year flat.

Hope this information helps.

Nevervana,

While I was gone, you seem to have done a lot of research. But the fact remains that whether the virus would remain in side you is not quite known. The fact remains that anyone carryin this virus can transmit it even after years without the sign of symptom. OK, the HPV causing the genital warts is a low risk for causing cancer. Wart is a condition that is caused by the fact that virus has already altered your DNA. When DNA is altered, more than likely it is a precursor of being a cancer. Low risk is not NO risk. It is true, that amazing number of people carrying this virus. So it would be in our best interest to develop a vaccine.

We are barely getting the DNA sequence of only a handful strain of HPV. And you know there are many strains of HPV. Have you done PCR testing? There is DNA hybrid testing, but this is inaccurate. Serologic test isn't accurate. Oh, BTW, PCR is not covered by insurance. And it will set you back a grand. I am gonna stick to the fact that we don't know a lot of about this virus. We came to realize how prevalent this thing is in the last decade with the advent of genetic testing; we have been able to track this virus down.

The problem is where this virus inserts itself in our DNA. It seem to be different from virus to virus. It seems only a few strain of HPV that inserts itself in the most critical oncogene section. Oncogene is the gene that keeps the cancer at bay. When one oncogene is damaged by HPV, it forms a precancerous growth. This is not a cancer, this may be a wart. When two of the oncogenes are knocked out, then you have a cancer. Everyone is different.

Once again, just be careful. Yeah, we may all have it. So I guess every women should test themselves. I hope PCR would be covered by the insurance, so we can learn more about this freaking virus.

In the mean time, keep your fingers crossed that we can finish the development of vaccine. Another thing, the virus can be carried into the cervix from outside. Do not underestimate the persistance of this virus. Even a disinfected instrument can infect.

From the KFWB web site:
Scientists Testing Possible Vaccine Against
Cancer-Causing Virus
AP) -- Government scientists have created a potential vaccine against a virus that causes cervical cancer, a promising development against a cancer that each year kills 200,000 women worldwide, including 5,000 Americans.

The experimental vaccine just passed its first human safety test but has years more testing ahead to prove if it does protect women against cancer.

Still, "the prospects for this vaccine are remarkably promising," said Dr. Harald zur Hausen, a cervical cancer expert in Heidelberg, Germany. He reviewed the research in Tuesday's Journal of the National Cancer Institute.

Until a vaccine becomes reality, a widely available virus test is highly effective at telling which of some 2 million American women
with inconclusive Pap smears each year need further cancer exams -- and who can relax, says a second study in Tuesday's journal.

Digene Corp.'s Capture test is "a very good option," NCI chief researcher Dr. Diane Solomon said.

Not everyone needs virus testing, Solomon stressed. Most American women with cervical cancer didn't get yearly Pap smears, which are remarkably successful at catching precancerous cells in time to prevent cancer.

"Women have to understand the importance of regular Pap testingas the first step," she said.

But when that exam isn't conclusive, Digene's test may help those women decide if they need a biopsy -- or, by ruling out viral infection, provide "excellent reassurance" that they're healthy and should just continue regular Pap testing.

Human papillomavirus, or HPV, is a sexually transmitted virus that infects some 40 million Americans. There are over 80 strains, the
vast majority symptomless and harmless. But some strains cause cervical cancer, including HPV-16, considered the riskiest and theone the experimental vaccine targets.

Cervical cancer strikes 400,000 women worldwide every year,including almost 13,000 Americans. The global toll is much higher because women in developing countries cannot afford those $25
Pap smears, so doctors there are hoping anxiously for a vaccine.

Paps aren't perfect -- about 2 million of the 50 million performed each year in the United States are inconclusive. The vast majority of those women prove to be healthy, but doctors struggle over how
to catch the precancer cases without subjecting too many healthy women to unnecessary biopsies or repeat Paps.

That's where HPV testing comes in. The government approved Digene's $50 test in 1999 as an aid in the diagnosis dilemma and about 15 percent of inconclusive Pap patients get it, but should more?

Tuesday's studies shed light on both fronts: --NCI researcher Dr. Douglas Lowy and colleagues created a vaccine against HPV-16 that proved so successful at preventing infection in animals that they tested it in 72 healthy people. This Phase 1 safety testing found no serious side effects; the main complaint was mild injection-site pain.

Better, most participants' blood developed 40 times more virus-fighting antibodies after vaccination than do people naturally infected with HPV. Those are "sky-high levels," and "the higher the immune response, the more likely it is that you will get protection,"
Lowy explained. To prove if the vaccine prevents HPV-16 infection and consequently reduces cancer, NCI researchers plan to begin studying thousands of women next year in Costa Rica, where cervical cancer is far more prevalent. The study will take up to eight years -- and even if it succeeds, doctors must develop vaccines against other cancer-causing HPV strains, too, Lowy cautioned.

--For today, Solomon's study of 3,488 women shows HPV testing is an option that can help women worried about an inconclusive Pap. She compared how well Digene's HPV test or a repeat Pap
predicted which women needed a biopsy.

Among those ultimately diagnosed with precancer, Digene's HPV test was 96 percent accurate, compared with a repeat Pap's 85 percent accuracy.

More good news: Women who tested infection-free had a 99.5 percent probability of being healthy, meaning the 45 percent of women studied who were HPV-negative safely avoided a biopsy.

Still, "there's no one option that's best in all circumstances for all women," cautioned Solomon, who advises women to discuss the alternatives with their doctors.

2.20.01, 4:20p

I honestly think HPV is rather over blown, especially here. True it is no fun. True you would not want to pass a harmful strain on to your future wife, and worse, try explaining it!

But if 80% of the population has or has had it, and get over it, and PAP Smears can effectively reduce risk to women, and vaccines against the really nasty stuff are on the horizon . . . At what point does this appproach common cold status??

Kaiser wont do tests to detect different strains. Freeze a wart off and forget it. Biological soup is the world we live in. People do NOT drop dead from this.

Joker, Id love to know your credentials for your information because you have 80% correct and 20% completely incorrect information in your head. First and foremost the virus never gets "IN" you. It exists on the outer layers of the skin cells. The virus doesnt go *IN* you at any time. This is why it can stay on men for a couple years and 81% of women clear up in 8 months. Their virus tends to exist in hydrated areas of the skin (moist, inside the vagina) which is much thinner than the shaft of a penis, and consequently the body detects and responds to the virus faster. The speed of resolution is in direct proportion to the cell division of the ephipial (sp?) cells which the virus exists on.

Im not going to bother explaining the rest. You seem to think you know more about the virus than the most informed researchers on HPV in the country, and unless you are their boss, im inclined to listen to them instead.

And El Cabrio said it best. The incidence of dying from cancer from side-smoke is about 6,000 times higher, and we do that every day. 100% of us.

By the way - where do i get the PCR test done? Specific locations/references appreciated. I might consider $1,000 to know if I need to ever worry about the "strains" i am carrying a worthy price tag sometime down the line.

Thanks

PS.. sorry for the comments above, you just have a morbid view of this and its unnecessary IMO.

Nevervana:

I hope that you understand that HPV is incurable. I don't what you mean by saying that your antibodies 'dead' with the virus, they don't do a hell of a lot in curing the disease.

Read the letter from the National HPV people above. "Shedding" the virus, and the immune system dealing with the virus happens in the vast majority of people.

Just like chicken pox is always in you, its irrelevant after the immune system has dealt with it. Same for people who get Mono ... virus... immune system deals with it, its harmless..

99% of people who have HPV are diagnosed with it between ages 20 and 25 ... the reason people dont get diagnosed with it after that age is because typically 1) the immune system is stronger as you get older and fewer older people even get it and 2) those that do get it from 20 to 25 eventually handle the virus via the immune system as time passes.

Its not like herpes which can recurr yearly for up to 50 years. nearly 100% of people do not see a recurrance of warts after 1 year.

That says a lot for the dissipation of the virus. The arguments come into play when you have to try to determine exactly when you're no longer contagious, or exactly when your immune system has lowered the virus presence to harmless levels... and if it ever does this. Thats something nobody has guagued yet, and thats why it still sucks. You have to look at what we do know though - and thats that almost nobody gets the virus after age 25-30 ... and thats a direct relationship to the immune system handling the virus.

Just because its a virus doesn't mean you've got it in full effect, full contagiousness, and full detriment forever. This particular one is fairly weak, and is almost always "dealt" with by the immune system over time.

The question is .. how much time.

Please note im not saying the virus is ever 100% gone. Chicken pox is never actually gone, nor is Mono. But neither are prevelent enough to cause problems.

Actually, my doctor told the virus IS gone. Actually considered to "not be present". Unless a wart reappears, and that may even be a different strain. If the wart (virus activity and contageous phase) is gone, and your body successfully implemented antibodies, then it is as gone as any cold you ever caught. Forget about it.

As usual, studies are the end all - be all of vague information.

As for 100% depletion of the virus, I don't think there are any studies which have established that this occurrs. This is why one doc will tell you one thing and another doc will tell you another thing.

Ive seen 3 dermatologists since my new "buddies" appeared on me, and done numerous searches for HPV studies on Pubmed (there are hundreds so I could be way off here), and only one doc had reference to actual depletion of viral presence.

He said one man agreed to electron microscope detection of virus particles in the area where warts had been treated. At the 1 year mark after wart dissapearance, virual presence had been reduced to about 70%. At the 2 year mark it went down to 40%. At the 3 year mark it reached about 20%. At the four year mark they recorded a 5% presence of the original viral amount. My doc said it was at this time that the participant said "screw it" and didn't bother for the 6th year, out of annoyance that it was taking so long.

What a dipshit. Wish he would have kept on with it. in any case, this is the only study ive seen referenced to actual recording of viral presence, and I have yet to actually see this study. Give me a few weeks, and Ill get to the bottom of it.

The sad part is everyone's talkin outta their ass, and the consumer has to do his own research for real info.

If anyone wants to play around, go to www.pubmed.org, register as a "consumer" (its free) and search the studies archive for HPV or genital warts. You will see every study ever conducted and recorded pertaining to this condition.

I don't want to turn this board into an STD discussion, but since this thread is here, I figure why not post recent clinical information on the condition.

HPV Testing Could Reduce Governmental Costs and Save Lives

Feb. 22 /PRNewswire/ -- Digene Corporation (Nasdaq: DIGE) announced today that the introduction of testing for Human Papillomavirus (HPV) could result in a 40% reduction in cervical cancer cases while reducing government health expenditures to fight this disease by 23%.

The Conference demonstrated for the first time the health economic models that show how HPV testing could save money, facilitating government action. The introduction of HPV testing as a primary screening test in conjunction with the Pap smear could reduce government and health insurers' costs through a combination of factors: fewer inadequate smears, an increase in the time period between screening since a negative HPV result gives a 99.9% guarantee that a woman will not develop cervical cancer within five years, and fewer referrals to colposcopy.

HPV is the acknowledged cause of up to 99.7% of all cervical cancer, which is the first, major virally-induced solid tumor cancer, and cervical cancer is virtually 100% treatable if detected early enough.

(how ya like that Joker? 100% treatable)

However, in most developing countries, women are still not routinely tested for the presence of HPV.

Nevervana;

Digene has DNA hibridizing test. That's still not accurate. (I have mentioned this before.) I just want to know if I am wasting my time with you. Once the virus inserts its DNA into your cell, it is IN you. Virus is not curable; trust me. My specialty is Immunology, and I am a research physician. I guess your assumption is that skin cell is not considered IN you. This is wrong.


I have never said cervical cancer is never curable. Any cancer can be cured, if it's detected early enough. Don't forget "early detection." There are still people dying from cervical cancer. You make it sound like no one dies from cervical cancer.

The viral particle titer can be decreased in time, because of the immune system. However it does not mean it's gone from your body or cells. Unfortunately, some of the fellow physician has not kept up with a latest medical science. It's a shame. Virus is very cunning, and it can hide. It takes special tests to detect it. The tests were not available until recently. So I would really be cautious in giving any information. I have given you only information that was simply true.

When I was a medical student, I got scared into not having sex for a long time. (But my right hand couldn't replace that warm wet feeling of pussy and mouth. Hey having sex with women is good.) More I learned, more scared I got. Everyday, I read a new research paper and thank God that I have a wife and don't have STD. Yeah, I have done PCR on my blood, IM, skin cells, etc etc.

I got scared, but then I realized that the life is too short to worry about the things that you have no control over. People need to have sex. It's a human nature to have sex. Yeah, almost everyone has this thing. Maybe you shouldn't worry about giving to anyone, afterall the chances are pretty good that she already has it.

AMA recommends sexually active women to take Pap test every year. So I hope women in Mexico do the test every 6 months. I just can not emphasize that enough. And Nevervana, I will assume that you are in denial. Time for you to accept and move on. HPV isn't all that bad for a man. I still don't see why you should be happy that you had HPV and not herpes. Cause HPV may be the cause of penis cancer as well.


Pray for Nevervana, his joy stick doesn't get cancer, so we don't have to cut his dick off.

Joker - maybe its your horrible ability to speak proper english that makes me doubt your credibility. If you could just form one sentence correctly, I might listen a little closer. Plus, that last line pretty much eliminated any chance of me putting stock in your view of things. You remind me of "Apoo" from the Simpsons...

PS.. please don't feed us some story on how English is your second language. That's no excuse. If you were half as educated as you claim to be (you claim to be far more educated than your peers - assuming you're really a peer of thrs), you'd be able to speak properly, rather than in broken english with bad grammar.

Over and out.

Bravo Nevervana...well put (and in proper English I might add)!

Oh, so it's a personal attack on my English now. All I wanted to do is to give you the right information that I thought you deserve. Nevervana, the fact is that you got STD that you have to live with. You need to know the fact. If you care about more about the fact than my English, you can get the right information.

Oh, by the way, I will take your advise and be more careful of the way i write from now on.

But the fact remains that there is a chance that this HPV may cause penis cancer. So before you have to chop it off, enjoy your life.

Joker - myself and the other 80% of people who have this terrrrrrrrrible STD will absolutely enjoy our lives. 80% man. Repeat after me, 80%, 80%, and how many of us have to cut off our penises due to cancer? Cmon. Think man, think.

How many would get em cut off if thier old lady caught it and found she got it from her whoremongering man?

Nevervana;

I have never disagreed that 80% of the population has this. So if 80% of the population gets HIV, then the problem goes away? Isn�ft it weird to think that this parasite has inserted its DNA IN YOUR cells? And it�fs like a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. Why not try to stop this thing? I see it differently than you do. The fact that 80% of the population has this only tells me that we need to concentrate our effort on educating people or develop vaccine to prevent this thing.

Taxibob, even if you stop whoremongering for a few years, you still have a chance of giving it to your old lady. Naturally if your old lady gets this, she would accuse you of infidelity. But it is not the case some times. So you can tell your old lady that you weren't cheating on you, before she slice your thing off.

Lastly, Nevervana, take care of yourself. I just don�ft know how to put it except to give you the fact. Yeah, life sucks some times. It's not the end. It sounded to me that your HPV didn't disfigure your genital. No one is probably going to notice the scar and stuff. I know Westfargo had it. You should read his posts about the genital warts, if you haven�ft. As far as I know he was still having sex with the chicas even though it was still contagious. According to him, the warts spread like a wild fire. He also mentioned he gets STD every 6 months or so in TJ. (I have never seen a man who brags about how often he gets STD.)
Westfargo said he was still having sex, when his warts were shedding after the treatment.

Anyone heard of any home treatments besides imiquimod cream? Can the average person buy a can of Liquid Nitrogen?

If you think you have HPV on your pecker then for god's sake see a doctor. Go to a free clinic if you have too.

Liquid nitrogen is safe and useful for a propfessional to use. But you are an amatuer, and are talking about your PECKER!

Just tell your doc you have a bump on your dick and want him to freeze it off. They will. First time. Might take two visits or even more if you let grow to cauliflower size. Home remedy? Chop your schlong off!

What if you are wrong and it is a cancer lesion and you let that grow. They will cut your dick off then.

Removing the wart the right way reduces any remaining virus left behind. You do not need that stuff running around. Get it treated right and live long to fuck often.

And it only sounds difficult to tell your doctor. Just blurt it out. Or write it on a piece of paper. They are trained for dealing with this type of private issue.

There are basically two prescription products for home treatment of genital warts. One is imiquimod (Adlara) which you mentioned. The other is podofilox (Condylox) also a topical chemical that you apply. It is a weaker version of podophyllin that is used in many doctor's offices as a topical treatment for genital warts.

Photos of warts...

http://www.mf.uni-lj.si/~ljupco/derma/eng/td/infe-vira-huma_pa_vi.html

Bro Joker says "Westfargo said he was still having sex, when his warts were shedding after the treatment. "

If dat's true, my brother, just one more reason not to give up no love for that dude.

Hmm. This thread contains lots of info, and lots of mis-info, I'm sure. It seems to be difficult to get credible info about HPV from physicians or the internet - all the info is remarkably variable. This thread is mis-labeled, because HPV can include genital warts, but can also be asymptomatic.

I'm asymptomatic; I've never had genital warts. As a long-time hobbyist, I wonder if I'm carrying a "high-risk" form of HPV. As far as I know, there's no reliable way to determine this... for me or for any of us.

Where does one get *reliable, up-to-date, unbiased* info about asymptomatic, high risk forms of HPV? Is there any sort of reliable test on the horizon?

HPV most prevalent at US Colleges, How about the zone?
Webmaster: Hombre
Posted by Innocent on January 21, 2003 - 8:44 am

HPV most common STD on campus

Aspen Emmett

The Independent


Sex. It�s an everyday word on most college campuses, and Fort Lewis College is no exception: MTV�s Dr. Drew appeared just last month at FLC to talk about sex and relationships. Two steps into the FLC health center, a visitor is surrounded by dozens of pamphlets and posters concerning sex and related topics such as contraception and sexually transmitted diseases. Even the biology department offers a course entitled �Human Sexuality.�

With this inundation of information about sex, it would seem FLC students would be among the most informed students in the country. Evidently not.

According to Director of FLC�s health center, Dan Hoff, FLC has twice as many cases of some STDs as other colleges and universities. The most prevalent of these STDs is the HPV virus.

According to information released by the American College Health Association, HPV is in a family of over 70 viruses, about one-third of which cause genital problems for both males and females. It can result in warts and cell changes that in rare cases can be pre-cancerous.

The virus is most commonly diagnosed in women and through annual pap smears, Hoff said. Sixteen point nine percent of pap smears performed at the Health Center are abnormal, in contrast to the national collegiate average at 8.2 percent.

The virus is transmitted by sexual contact and can even be transmitted while using a condom because the virus is not carried in body fluids, but on the surface of the skin, according to the American College Health Association. Additionally, HPV can be treated but is not considered curable.

Hoff said there are a number of risk factors that could play into the high number of cases of the disease at FLC.

�We see a high percentage of the FLC population,� Hoff said. �We have charts on 70 percent of the students.�

Hoff said the high percentage of students who visit the FLC health center could contribute to more accurate numbers because more students are seen through the school than other health providers as in the case of other schools.

Hoff also said that the people who are responsible for interpreting the results of the pap smears could be giving a more accurate account at FLC than at other schools. Hoff referred to an in-depth study at the national level that suggested as many as 50 percent of women are infected with HPV, but in many cases, high immune systems suppressed the disease, not making it visible in most exams.

Another factor Hoff said could contribute to the high percentage of HPV at FLC is the sense of security students have because it is a small school.

FLC senior Kendi Lichliter who wasn�t previously aware of the statistics said she could see how people have a false sense of security because they think FLC�s small size means STDs are rarer here than at larger universities.

�I think it�s scary,� Lichliter said. �At the same time I�m not surprised. I�m sure there�s lots of irresponsible people here having unprotected sex.�

FLC senior Karl Walker also thought the size of FLC would play into the statistics but in a socially acceptabe respect.

�It�s a small campus where promiscuity doesn�t pass as much as at a big school,� Walker said. �At the bigger universities a person could sleep with someone one night and go the rest of the semester without running into them again.�

FLC senior Hillary Stanton disagreed as to why there are high numbers.

�I think there�s more responsible people at FLC,� she said. �They�re smart enough to get tested.�

Other STD�s are not as prevalent at FLC but are still to be taken seriously, Hoff said. The health center has seven recorded cases of herpes so far this year. And the numbers of cases of chlamydia are not clear because they are counted with urinary tract infections.

�I know I�ve treated more than are on record, though,� Hoff said.

However, no students have tested positive for HIV at the FLC health center.

�We�ve been testing (for HIV) for five years but never had a positive test,� Hoff said.

Seven years ago the health center knew of five students with HIV, but Hoff said he didn�t know of any cases since. However, just because the school is not aware of any students with HIV does not necessarily mean there are no cases on campus, Hoff cautioned.

�Either they�re not telling us or they don�t know,� Hoff said.

FLC does offer a number of avenues for education about STD�s. From classes to counselors and guest speakers to a health center full of pamphlets, the information is available to anyone who is interested.

FLC student wellness and prevention coordinator Stacia Runge said she talks at a number of classes and dormitories on campus about STD�s.

�We talk a lot about risk reduction, condom usage, as well as communication between partners,� Runge said. �At a small college like this people are at high risk and if you can�t talk about it you shouldn�t be doing it.�





Replies

Confusion and info about HPV. Comments valued... Innocent 11:50:10 01/21/03
Re: Confusion and info about HPV. Comments valued... T_Bone 14:21:24 01/21/03
Tbone, I really appreciate your disscussion on this Innocent 15:36:10 01/21/03
Re: Confusion and info about HPV. Comments valued...Requested Comments Ben 12:28:21 01/21/03
Thanks Ben I was thinking along similar lines but Innocent 15:41:30 01/21/03



Post a Reply

Name: Innocent

Tbone, I really appreciate your disscussion on this
Webmaster: Hombre
Posted by Innocent on January 21, 2003 - 15:36 pm

In Reply to: Re: Confusion and info about HPV. Comments valued... posted by T_Bone on January 21, 2003 - 14:21 pm

I didn't know that HPV couldn't be detected when you have blood work done at a HIV clinic.
---That is a fact, it can not.

If you have no warts
---a male can be positive and spread the virus through micro shedding of tissue and virus that is not yet visible to the naked eye. Warts are obvious and considered a more advanced stage of infection with a greater titer/amount of virus in the body.

and your wife/S.O. has had a clean pap smear report are you in the clear or could it be dormant in both of you?

--- If the PAP is clear my current research
indicates that a women can carry and transmit HPV.
As the article says, a strong immune system can lead to the inability of detection in women who are actually positive and carrying HPV. It's not exactly dormant, just not presenting a high enough quantity to be detected or cause tissue changes in the cerevix.

Is this something only transmitted through intercorse or could you get it from 'making out' e.g. tounge saliva?

---To the best of my knowledge so far I have not heard of this transmitted oraly from making out. However theoretically if it is passed "skin to skin"eating pussy that is positive could allow transmission anywhere on the face or oral cavity.

My opinion now is that this is one of the greatest and elusive STDs that mongers or any "player" has to deal with.

Several weeks ago, I posted about the first case I've seen of oral Chlamydia, in a male, in clinic. It was not pretty. Previous courses of strong oral antibiotic therapy failed and the patient was admitted to Palomar Medical Center in Escondido for i.v. antibiotic therapy.

Although I have not seen this patient again his prognosis was considered good with the i.v. antibiotics.

What is the latest on the extent of infection among the members here?

If things are how I think they are, we are our own worst enemy.

In simpler terms, once you have a wart, you have the virus forever no matter whether the warts are visible or not.

And since you may be contagious without showing any signs, you would be therefore transferring the virus to the girls who then give it right back to the rest of us.

The bottom line is that we will probably all test positive for HPV unless anyone who contracts the visible warts completely quits the hobby right there and then.....which I sincerely doubt has been happening all along.

This just gives you a real warm fuzzy feeling, huh!

Merry Christmas!

thank you for your very inspiring christmas post hehe

HPV is probably the most common STD out there right now. The Centers for Disease Control (http://www.CDC.gov) states that at least 20 million people in the USA have the virus. It estimates that at least 50% of the adult population will have HPV at some point in their lives, and about 80% of women will have it by age 50. If someone can reconcile those two stats, explain it to me. For men, HPV seems to cause no harm, and it is not detectable by test. Apparently the immune system overcomes it over time. For women, though, HPV heightens the risk of cervical cancer, and it can be detected with a routine smear.

What does it mean for mongers? Well, I would venture to say not much, since only fools go unprotected with P4P girls. (Apparently it can be contracted only through vaginal sex, not BBBJ).

But for relationships outside of mongering, it can cause relationship-ending trauma, particularly if your girlfriend has regular pap smears and feels that you are the cause of a cancer risk.

I should have added that the most frustrating thing about HPV for men is that since you can't find out when you've got it, you also can't find out when you've gotten rid of it. For an indeterminate length of time, you have protected sex, which your girlfriend or wife may find irritating. Then you wait till she goes for a regular visit with the Ob-gyn. When she returns, if shes carrying a weapon, you've still got it.

Heron, I would say that the majority of us do have HPV. Why? Because it is transmitted skin-to-skin, not via fluids. Thus, even with a rubber on, you can become infected if any other part of you touches her - think balls, base of the shaft where the rubber stops, those types of areas.

For guys, you can get genital warts from some strains but most will never know they have it. It's a virus, not a bacteria, so there is no real cure at this point although the new vaccine that was just approved for cervical cancer is a vaccine for HPV-16, one of the two nasty strains that tends to cause cervical cancer in women.

Catocony: You seem to be correct in that the CDC states:

"Human papillomavirus is the name of a group of viruses that includes more than 100 different strains or types. More than 30 of these viruses are sexually transmitted, and they can infect the genital area of men and women including the skin of the penis, vulva (area outside the vagina), or anus, and the linings of the vagina, cervix, or rectum."

I wish that the CDC explanation were a bit more full. If the skin of the penis, why not the skin of the fingertips, etc.? And if it resides on the skin of the penis, how does the body's immune system eventually overcome it?

I don't know the internal workings but just think about herpes. You have an outbreak, then it goes away - both types, the STD one and the one that affects the mouth. Just like any other virus it can be dormant for a while, then kicks in, eventually the white blood cells so their job but can't do anything about the dormant cells. After a while the dormant cells go active, and the cycle continues.

"It estimates that at least 50% of the adult population will have HPV at some point in their lives, and about 80% of women will have it by age 50. If someone can reconcile those two stats, explain it to me."

Because some of the men are fucking most of the women, while the rest of the men get none at all. Easy math, and not the first statistic in which this fact is observable.

Falstaff, you are a piece of work.

LOL. It is absolutely true, both worldwide, and as far back into history as you care to read. Institutions like marriage and monogamy seek largely to redress this "imbalance" for the sake of social harmony. The other attempt at a solution is to legalize prostitution.

I wholeheartedly recommend the book "The Red Queen" by Matthew Ridley for anyone interested in the role Sexual Selection plays in human interactions. "Romantic love" is not about LOVE primarily. It is primarily about ATTRACTION and mating strategies. Attraction is very different for men and women.

The book, "Sperm Wars" by Robin Baker also draws some rather interesting conclusions.

I am ridiculously knowledgeable on this subject... ;)

The Truth Is Out There,
GP

Genetics, as a science, as well the three related fields of Socio Biology, Behavioural Ecology, and Evolutionary Psycology have turned conventional wisdom about love, mating and marriage on its head.

Modern day notions about romantic love turn out to be largely nonsense....

Judeo-christian/islamic thoughts about the natural state of male/female relationships are ill concieved, if unintentional, means or attempts to further an agenda....

Feminist notions on the natural male/female relationship are based on an agenda which is itself based on a basic misunderstanding of economics and equality....

The body of evidence continues to grow, and it is becoming overwhelming. If anyone genuinely wishes to understand why we do what we do, the information is now readily available.

Here's a list that scratches the surface of what's available.

If you want a quick basic read, I would suggest
"The Myth of Monogomy: Fidelity and Infidelity in Animals and People" by David P Barash and Judith Eve Lipton.
http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Monogamy-Fidelity-Infidelity-Animals/dp/0805071369/sr=8-1/qid=1160504528/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1079685-8755928?ie=UTF8&s=books

Also for people who don't like heavy science styled writing, there is the narative styled "Sperm Wars: The Science of Sex" by Robin Baker.
http://www.amazon.com/Sperm-Wars-Science-Robin-Baker/dp/0788160044/sr=1-2/qid=1160504725/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-1079685-8755928?ie=UTF8&s=books
Personally, I don't care much for his style of building hypothetical scenarios and then explaining them...seems clunky to me....but different people respond better to different methods of argumentation.

By far, the best book I've read on the subject is
"The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature" by Matt Ridley...If you're only going to read one book on the subject, make it this one.
http://www.amazon.com/Red-Queen-Evolution-Human-Nature/dp/0060556579/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b/104-1079685-8755928?ie=UTF8

But there are many, many more...

"Why Sex Matters: A Darwinian Look at Human Behaviour" by Bobbi S Low
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Sex-Matters-Darwinian-Behavior/dp/0691089752/sr=1-1/qid=1160505540/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1079685-8755928?ie=UTF8&s=books
Very heavy style...I haven't gotten through it yet.

"Promiscuity: An Evolutionary History of Sperm Competition" by Tim Birkhead
http://www.amazon.com/Promiscuity-Evolutionary-History-Sperm-Competition/dp/0674006666/sr=1-1/qid=1160505553/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1079685-8755928?ie=UTF8&s=books
Well written and interesting.

"The Mating Mind: How Sexual Choice Shaped the Evolution of Human Nature" by Geoffrey Miller
http://www.amazon.com/Mating-Mind-Sexual-Evolution-Nature/dp/038549517X/sr=1-1/qid=1160505702/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1079685-8755928?ie=UTF8&s=books
Focuses on the mental aspects of mate selection...I haven't had time to read this one yet.

"Sex: A Natural History" by JoAnn Ellison Rodgers
http://www.amazon.com/Sex-History-Joann-Ellison-Rodgers/dp/0805072810/sr=1-1/qid=1160505974/ref=sr_1_1/104-1079685-8755928?ie=UTF8&s=books
Again, I've only perused this one.

"Anatomy of Love: A Natural History of Mating, Marriage, and Why We Stray" by Helen Fisher
http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Love-Natural-History-Marriage/dp/0449908976/sr=1-1/qid=1160506736/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1079685-8755928?ie=UTF8&s=books
This one came out rather early, and she tended to get some of her theories ahead of her facts...but still a good read.

"The Woman That Never Evolved" by Sarah Blaffer Hrdy
http://www.amazon.com/Woman-That-Never-Evolved-Bibliographical/dp/0674955390/sr=1-1/qid=1160506850/ref=sr_1_1/104-1079685-8755928?ie=UTF8&s=books
At attempt by a feminist to bring some of the irrational positions held by her peers back into line with scientific evidence. Other feminists generally either attack her or ignore her.

"Survival of the Prettiest: The Science of Beauty" by Nancy Etcoff
http://www.amazon.com/Survival-Prettiest-Science-Nancy-Etcoff/dp/0385479425/sr=1-1/qid=1160507218/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1079685-8755928?ie=UTF8&s=books
Again, a woman's attempt to refute certain feminist notions...in this case, the feminist idea that beauty is a male concept invented to subjegate females. She shows that the exact opposite is true....beauty is real, and women use it to control and manipulate men. This is a very interesting book and goes off in many unexpected directions.

"The Triumph of Sociobiology" by John Alcock
http://www.amazon.com/Triumph-Sociobiology-John-Alcock/dp/0195163354/sr=1-1/qid=1160507717/ref=sr_1_1/104-1079685-8755928?ie=UTF8&s=books
Broad overview of the field.

For Genetics specific discussions you have:

"Genome: The Autobiography of a Species in 23 Chapters" by Matt Ridley
http://www.amazon.com/Genome-Autobiography-Species-Chapters-P-S/dp/0060894083/sr=1-2/qid=1160508318/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-1079685-8755928?ie=UTF8&s=books

"The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins
One of the first, this book is now thirty years old and still relevant.
http://www.amazon.com/Selfish-Gene-Anniversary-Introduction-Author/dp/0199291152/sr=1-1/qid=1160508463/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1079685-8755928?ie=UTF8&s=books

"The Agile Gene: How Nature Turns on Nurture"
by Matt Ridley...formerly published by the title "Nature Via Nurture"
http://www.amazon.com/Agile-Gene-Nature-Turns-Nurture/dp/B000GYI1HO/sr=1-1/qid=1160508944/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1079685-8755928?ie=UTF8&s=books

"The Cooperative Gene: How Mendel's Demon Explains the Evolution of Complex Beings"
by Mark Ridley
http://www.amazon.com/Cooperative-Gene-Mendels-Explains-Evolution/dp/0743201612/sr=1-1/qid=1160508956/ref=sr_1_1/104-1079685-8755928?ie=UTF8&s=books

And if you want to know just how far reaching the implications of these sciences can be, read Matt Ridley's "The Origins of Virtue: Human Instincts and the Evolution of Cooperation"...
You'll never look at economics the same way again.
http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Virtue-Instincts-Evolution-Cooperation/dp/0140264450/sr=1-1/qid=1160509551/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1079685-8755928?ie=UTF8&s=books

Ejack1 -

Damn dude, you are right on! I've got a hard-on already in anticipation reading "The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature" by Matt Ridley. Thank you. But before I enlighten myself let me just say that I think the lying bitches cheat whenever a better looking guy comes along...they willingly collect sperm from a guy they perceive as genetically superior to their mate, then they tell their mate, the short, balding, fat dude, making 6-figures a year that he is the daddy. Those manipulative cunts!

According to the documentary, "The Science of Sex" 1 in every 10 people in the US are illegitimate. All (relatively) beautiful women have at least one or two guys waiting in the wings ready to hook-up if "the relationship" with the "provider" (fat rich dude) doesn't work-out. And most if not all guys will dump their load in a one night stand chica if they think they can slip away and not be tracked down.

Heron33 -

Falstaff? Who are you talking to?

AJ

Alecjamer: Read my trip report. Falstaff is the star and the Greek Chorus all in one.

EJack
It is an amazing revolution going on now in "Social Sciences". "Social Science Number" may lose it's pejorative bite. It's fun to watch interest groups scramble when their preconceived notions and agendas don't match what objective, quantitative analysis measures and explains.

It's nice to see that my choices are not all that "deviant"

Smitopher,

I still hold a general distain for the soft "sciences" of sociology and to a lesser extent psychology. Anytime an agenda seems to predetermine an outcome, its hard for me to call it true science....it seems that theory gets built on theory without much use for that nuisance of verification or a double-blind test.

Thankfully, sociobiologists bear little resemblance to general sociologists, and while it's not truly a hard science in the sense of chemistry or physics, the researchers are obviously looking for honest, legitimate results.

AJ,

Most people are simply not intellectually inquisitive...no problem. However, I am convinced that there is a well above average number of people on this board of Rational temperament, and many of them may be interested.
Whatever.

Maybe it's just sciences that turn you off...
More of a history buff???

Are you interested in understanding why christians are so anti-sex?
Want to understand the relationship between masterbation phobias and the inventions of the Graham cracker and Kellogg's corn flakes?
How, and why did Freud come up with his screwy ideas about castration anxiety and penis envy?
Why were witches burned at the stake in the dark ages?
What relationships exist between racism and historical sexual beliefs?

If any of these catch your interest, you can find the answers to these questions and many more like them in the well researched and entertaining book "A Mind of Its Own: A Cultural History of the Penis" by David M Friedman
http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Its-Own-Cultural-History/dp/0142002593/sr=8-2/qid=1160553525/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-1079685-8755928?ie=UTF8

However, you'll have to turn to Temperament Theory and again sociobiology to understand why some people are just dicks.

Wow, okay! If I'm "ridiculously knowledgable", EJack1 is LUDICROUSLY knowledgable. Good show!

Heron, awww, thanks so much! Being called "both the star and the greek chorus" flatters me in a way I did not know I would enjoy so fully. That's me, Jackass of all trades ;) I can die a happy man now...

Messages relocated here to existing topic

Wow Ejack. It is obvious you are one of the leading authorities on this subject. Your credentials must take pages to list. Anyway, great job! I only wish I could understand this stuff better.

Ejack,
Can you recommend a particular order in which to peruse the above titles? I would also be keenly interested in your opinion on the following:

Regarding Behavioral Ecology, would you agree that the two causes contributing to ultimate causation are phylogenetic contingencies that contribute to the development of behavior and adaptive significance? I ask this because in my opinion, phylogenetic constraints are generally factors that might stop certain lineages from developing certain behavioral or morphological traits. Do you agree? and why. Thanks!

Okay,

I've looked back over the thread, and yes, I suppose I can see where some of you could assume I was attemping some form of one-upsmanship.
If that's the case, I at least had no such conscious intent.

GCL,

Wow, I'm stumped...I don't really know how to respond.

It's not so much due to the convoluted verbage typical of behavioural ecologists, although I will admit that is precisely why I set Ms. Low's book aside.

It's just that, (geez, I'm blushing,) I've never been quite so honored as to have anyone actually request my personal approval of a scientific definition before.

Okay then, I approve.
Why? Well, I suppose it's just that I'm so overcome with joy by this peculiar distinction that I just couldn't dream of rejecting your proposal.

And you're most certainly welcome!

As for where to begin your disciplinary edification, maybe we could both start here?
http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671723650/sr=8-1/qid=1160671954/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1079685-8755928?ie=UTF8&s=books

In the mean time, if you are genuinely put off by my writing stlye, you should be aware that you are not actually required to read it.

Giblet,

I don't claim to be tremendously knowledgeable, but I do admit being quite obsessed with the subject.

And I think the more people that we can get interested in it, the better off we will all be.

The misinformation we've all been fed all our lives poisons our relationships, our culture and our laws.

I'm just glad to see I'm not the only guy obsessed with the topic.