Hey guys, anyone have some info on Testosterone? I'm especially interested in the gel AndroGel. If you can fill me in on effects short and long term where I can find it in TJ and how much it costs I thank you.

The LA Times ran ran a series of articles this week on trans-genders. I only had time to scan a few of the articles. They repeatedly said that more girls alter their biology to try be boys than the other way around. They take testosterone and grow beards, and have breast reduction surgery. Their god given organs suffer badly and may require intervention or removal. With pictures looking like bikers! Yech!! But they can't grow manhood. Weird science. Don't get that gel on your hands and jack off! Susquatch!!

Steroids are available at all TJ pharmacies. Show them in writing what you want. Show them your money in green stuff.

This new generation of hormones is a far cry from the anabolic steriods of the past. According to several articles I've read including one in Time
they represent a kind of fountain of youth. In Addition to the sexual umph your body resumes it's youthful relationship with fat and muscle as well as a much reduced risk of heart attack, high blood pressure and other age related conditions. General emotional well being seems to be enhanced as well. I understqnd memory is even improved.Alot of the things that make youth fun and old age suck seems to be addressed. Anyway I'm impressed enough to do some more research and I was hoping someone out there in Mongerland may be ahead of me, especially concerning the gel which seems really easy to use.

Tjorphan - Hope you keep us posted on your research.. So far, all I've heard of that reverses the aging process is HGH (human growth hormone) claims are made that it does all you described but doesn't seem to work for everyone.

High levels of testosterone can have significant health benefits for some middle-aged men, according to a Penn State study. But, for some men so endowed, there is also a down side, the researchers warn.

"Men with higher testosterone are less vulnerable to high blood pressure, heart attacks, frequent colds and obesity," says Dr. Alan Booth, professor of sociology and human development. "In addition, they are more likely to rate their health as excellent or good rather than fair or poor. Studies show self ratings of health correlate highly with physicians' assessments.

"The benefits of higher testosterone levels have a down side, however," Booth notes. "Some, but not all, men with higher levels of testosterone are more likely to engage in behavior that cancels out the beneficial effects of testosterone."

Those with higher levels of testosterone are more inclined to smoke, drink alcohol excessively and indulge in risky behavior that leads to injury. The biggest detriment to health by far is the tendency for high testosterone men to smoke.

Booth, Dr. Douglas A. Granger, assistant professor of biobehavioral health and director of Penn State's Behavioral Endocrinology Laboratory in the College of Health and Human Development and Dr. David R. Johnson, professor of sociology at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, published their work in the paper, "Testosterone and Men's Health, in a recent issue of the Journal Of Behavioral Medicine.

The researchers studied testosterone and health in a sample of 4,393 men between the ages of 32 and 44 who had served in the military between 1965 and 1971. The men were interviewed and medically examined. Testosterone was measured in plasma from blood drawn at 8 a.m. Concentrations ranged from 53 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dl) to 1,500 ng/dl, with an average of 679.

"Comparison of men with slightly below average levels of testosterone (400/ng/dl) with men with slightly above average levels (800 ng/dl) revealed significant differences in the indicators of health," Booth says.

Men at the higher level were 45 percent less likely to have high blood pressure, 72 percent less likely to have experienced a heart attack, 8 percent less likely to have 3 or more colds in a year, and 45 percent less likely to rate their health as fair or poor.

On the negative side, men at the higher level were 25 percent more likely to report one or more injuries, 32 percent more likely to imbibe 5 or more drinks in a single day and 151 percent more likely to smoke.

"We don't yet fully understand how testosterone benefits health or leads to behaviors detrimental to health," Booth says. "More studies are needed to discover the missing pieces to this puzzle. What is clear is that men with higher testosterone levels are at higher risk for negative health outcomes. But there are many men with higher testosterone who don't engage in health risk behavior and who do realize testosterone-related health benefits."

Increasing men's awareness of their testosterone levels may be worthwhile in terms of health promotion and disease prevention efforts, say the researchers. Regular monitoring of testosterone levels would make it easier to optimize the sensitive balance between testosterone's positive and negative effects, especially if it is done as part of overall physical checkups.

"Monitoring testosterone through saliva samples is now possible and offers distinct advantages over the traditional means of assaying blood," Granger notes. "Saliva sampling is non-invasive, samples can be self-collected, repeated samples can be obtained with minimal effort and the accuracy of saliva assays has substantially improved in recent years."
[Contact: Dr. Alan Booth, Dr. Douglas A. Granger]

Whatever else you may think about testosterone, you can tell it's a hot topic. Every time you mention that you happen to be writing about it, the first thing people ask is "Can you get me some?" (Everybody, even the women.) Maybe that's not so surprising. If there is such a thing as a bodily substance more fabled than blood, it's testosterone, the hormone that we understand and misunderstand as the essence of manhood. Testosterone has been offered as the symbolic (and sometimes literal) explanation for all the glories and infamies of men, for why they start street fights and civil wars, for why they channel surf, explore, prevail, sleep around, drive too fast, plunder, bellow, joust, plot corporate takeovers and paint their bare torsos blue during the Final Four. Hey, what's not to like?

Until now, it was easy to talk about testosterone but hard to do much about it. About 4 million men in the U.S. whose bodies don't produce enough take a doctor-prescribed synthetic version, mostly by self-injection, every one to three weeks. But the shots cannot begin to mimic the body's own minute-by-minute micromanagement of testosterone levels. So they can produce a roller coaster of emotional and physical effects, from a burst of energy, snappishness and libido in the first days to fatigue and depression later. The main alternative, a testosterone patch, works best when applied daily to the scrotum, an inconvenient spot, to put it mildly. Some doctors recommend that you warm that little spot with a blow dryer, which may or may not be fun.

All of that will change this summer when an easy to apply testosterone ointment, AndroGel, becomes generally available for the first time by prescription. The company that developed it, Illinois-based Unimed Pharmaceuticals, promises that because AndroGel is administered once or more a day, it will produce a more even plateau of testosterone, avoiding the ups and downs of the shots. Though the body's own production of this hormone trails off gradually in men after the age of 30 or so, not many men now seek testosterone-replacement therapy (not that they necessarily need to) or even get their T levels tested. But replace the needles and patches with a gel, something you just rub into the skin like coconut oil during spring break at Daytona Beach, and suddenly the whole idea seems plausible.

Testosterone, after all, can boost muscle mass and sexual drive. (It can also cause liver damage and accelerate prostate cancer, but more on that later.) That makes it central to two of this culture's rising preoccupations: perfecting the male body and sustaining the male libido, even when the rest of the male has gone into retirement. So will testosterone become the next estrogen, a hormone that causes men to bang down their doctor's doors, demanding to be turned into Mr. T? Do not underestimate the appeal of any substance promising to restore the voluptuous powers of youth to the scuffed and dented flesh of middle age. If you happen to be a man, the very idea is bound to appeal to your inner hood ornament, to that image of yourself as all wind-sheared edges and sunlit chrome. And besides, there's the name: testosterone! Who can say no to something that sounds like an Italian dessert named after a Greek god?

But testosterone is at issue in larger debates about behavioral differences between men and women and which differences are biologically determined. A few Sundays ago, the New York Times Magazine ran a long piece by Andrew Sullivan, 36, the former editor of the New Republic, in which he reported his own experience with testosterone therapy. In two years he has gained 20 lbs. of muscle. And in the days right after his once-every-two-weeks shot, he reports feeling lustier, more energetic, more confident and more quarrelsome--more potent, in all senses of the word.

Looking over the scientific research on testosterone, Sullivan speculated on the extent to which such traits as aggression, competitiveness and risk taking, things we still think of as male behavior, are linked to the fact that men's bodies produce far more testosterone than women's bodies. His answer--a lot--was offered more as an intuition than a conclusion, but it produced a spate of fang baring among some higher primates in the media and scientific world, since it implies that gender differences owe more to biology than many people would like to believe. Three researchers wrote the Times to complain that Sullivan had overstated their thinking. In the online magazine Slate, columnist Judith Shulevitz attacked Sullivan for favoring nature over environment in a debate in which nobody knows yet which is which. In the days that followed, Sullivan fired back at Shulevitz in Slate, she attacked again, and other writers joined in. If testosterone use becomes a true cultural phenomenon, expect the conversations about its role in gender differences to become even more, well, aggressive.

So just what does testosterone actually do for you? And to you? And how does it figure among the physical and environmental pressures that account for head-banging aggression, or even just the trading pit on Wall Street? One reason testosterone enjoys a near mythical status is that myth is what takes over when conclusive data are scarce. Though testosterone was first isolated in 1935, hormone-replacement therapy is one of the few areas of medicine where research on men lags behind that on women.

What we do know is that testosterone is an androgen, as the family of male sex hormones are called, and these hormones, in turn, are made up of the fat known as steroids. Both men and women produce testosterone in their bodies, men in the testes and adrenal glands, women in the adrenal glands and ovaries. But men produce much more--the average healthy male has 260 to 1,000 nanograms of testosterone per deciliter of blood plasma. For women the range is 15 to 70. But because men differ on how effectively their bodies process the substance--for instance, some have more receptors around their body that absorb it--a man on the low end of the normal range can still have all the testosterone he needs for normal sex drive and other benefits. In healthy men, levels also vary during the day, peaking around 8 a.m., which is why men commonly awaken in a state of sexual arousal, and dropping as much as half before bedtime.

Testosterone is the substance that literally turns boys into boys in the womb. In the first weeks after conception, all embryos are technically sexless. Around the sixth week of gestation, the presence of the Y chromosome in males triggers a complex set of signals that cause a surge in testosterone. Among other things, that sets in motion the formation of the penis and testes. In adolescence, boys undergo another eruption that deepens their voices, causes hair to form on their bodies and allows their muscles to enlarge. Testosterone in the blood of teenage boys can jump to as high as 2,000 nanograms, which helps explain teenage boys.

One possible danger of easy-to-use testosterone is that it might become a temptation to younger males looking to bulk up at the gym. Not many of them would be able to demonstrate the diminished T counts that would allow them to get it legally from their doctors, but the potential for a black market in AndroGel is not hard to imagine among teens and guys in their 20s--and older--who hear stories about a new substance stronger than the supplements available over the counter and easier to use than anabolic steroids that are injected. For teens in particular, the dangers of testosterone overload are not just acne and breast development but a shutting down of bone growth--though they may be at an age that makes them almost deaf to the risks. For older men, studies indicate that high levels of T do not necessarily cause prostate cancer but do fuel the growth of tumors once they occur, which is why chemical castration is one means of treating the disease in the advanced stages.

Gay men may have been one of the first populations to talk up testosterone replacement, which is often part of the treatment regimen for hiv-positive men like Sullivan, author of the New York Times Magazine piece. They produced a buzz about increased sex drive and better results at the gym, things that happen to be of interest to a lot of straight men too, especially middle-age baby boomers looking to put themselves back in the driver's seat as far as their sex drive is concerned. "These men already come in asking for [testosterone]," says Dr. Louann Brizendine, co-director of the program in sexual health at the University of California, San Francisco. "This generation came out of the sexual revolution. They really identify themselves as sexual beings. And they don't want to give that up."

At 66, Gene Teasley, who operates a family business that makes banners in Dallas, is a decade older than the baby boomers, but he gets the idea. About nine years ago, he went to his doctor complaining of less interest in sex. Since then, he has been getting testosterone shots once every two weeks. "I've enjoyed the results not just in the sexual way but also in a broader way of feeling healthier. I have more of a desire to work out, be outdoors and do more athletic things," he says. "Everybody wants to feel like they felt in their 20s and 30s."

Some researchers are taking seriously the still controversial notion of "male menopause," a constellation of physical changes, including fatigue, depression and drooping libido, that they believe can be traced to the decline of hormones, including testosterone, in men over 50. Others are not so sure. "One thing we have to recognize is that the decline in testosterone is also intertwined with changes, such as decrease in blood flow, and psychological and social changes too," says Dr. Kenneth Goldberg, medical director of the Men's Health Center in Dallas. "Simply expecting to take men who are androgen deficient and expecting testosterone to fix it all--it just can't be."

Yet even the passage of time doesn't guarantee that a particular man's testosterone will decline to a level that much affects how he feels, at least not by middle age. Middle-age men who preserve the body weight they had in their 20s may have no falloff at all, while overweight adult men of any age tend to have lower testosterone levels. This means that a couple of the goombahs on The Sopranos are probably deficient, though maybe I should let you be the one to tell them that.

Once you get past the proven links between testosterone, libido and muscle mass, the benefits of having higher levels of testosterone become harder to prove, though no less interesting to hear about. Just how much of a role does this play in producing behaviors such as aggression, competitiveness and belligerence? Men who take testosterone by injection routinely report that in the first days after the shot, when their T counts are especially high, they feel increased confidence, well-being and feistiness--what you might call swagger. They also describe feeling snappish and fidgety.

Jim--not his real name--is a family therapist who was 40 when he started taking the shots because of fatigue and a so-so interest in sex, which had led him to get his T levels tested. The first day or two after the shot, he says, he's on pins and needles. "My fiance knows to steer clear. I tend to be short-tempered, more critical, and I go around the house looking for problems. I live out in the country, so right after I get the shot I get out the weed whacker and the chain saw, and I just go crazy."

Gee. Even putting aside for a moment the much increased danger of prostate cancer, do we really want men to turn later life into a hormonal keg party? The thought could be mildly exasperating to women, who might be forgiven for greeting the news with the same feelings china shop-keepers have for bulls. But this is the point at which the discussion of testosterone veers into the metaphysical.

Outside the bedroom and the gym, just what does testosterone do for you? Studies in animals have repeatedly shown that testosterone and aggression go hand in hand. Castrate species after species, and you get a pussycat. Boost the testosterone with injections and the castrated animal acts more like a tiger. In one study of men, when the testosterone levels were suppressed (in this case by researchers using medications) libido and dominant behaviors dropped. But when a mere 20% of the testosterone was added back, libido and domination climbed to the levels where they had started. Which suggests that men do not need much of the stuff to go on doing whatever it is they have already learned to do.

Other studies have shown that men with naturally higher testosterone levels are more aggressive and take-charge than men with slightly lower levels. When two sports teams meet, both teams will show an increase in testosterone during the game. "In the face of competition, levels of testosterone will rise," says Alan Booth, a sociologist at Penn State University. "This prepares the competitor and may help increase the chances for a win. It could be that the rise in testosterone has physical benefits, such as visual acuity and increased strength. But only the winning team continues to show high testosterone after the game."

For this exercise, you don't even have to picture the Packers vs. the Vikings. The T boost also happens during nonphysical competitions, like chess games and trivia contests. Whatever the game, in evolutionary terms this makes sense. Among the primates from whom we are descended, the victorious male in any encounter may have needed to maintain high testosterone levels in the expectation that his position in the pecking order would be challenged by the next guy coming up.

But here it gets complicated. Does higher testosterone produce more aggressive behavior? Or does the more aggressive male--whose aggression was learned, say, at home or in school or in the neighborhood or on the team or in the culture at large--call for a release of testosterone from within himself for assistance? And if testosterone really does determine male behaviors like aggression, then what are we to make of the fact that although testosterone levels are pretty equal in prepubescent children, boys and girls already demonstrate different behaviors?

What we know for certain is this: aggressive behavior and testosterone appear in the same place. And aggressive behavior seems to require some testosterone in your system. But researchers have yet to show conclusively that adding a little more in males who already have a normal range of the stuff does much to make them more aggressive or confrontational. In one study, Dr. Christina Wang of UCLA found that men with low testosterone were actually more likely to be angry, irritable and aggressive than men who had normal to high-normal levels of testosterone. When their testosterone was increased during hormone-replacement therapy, their anger diminished and their sense of well-being increased. "Testosterone is probably a vastly overrated hormone," says Robert Sapolsky, a Stanford University biologist and author of The Trouble with Testosterone.

All the same, there are social implications connected to the one area in which we know for a fact that testosterone matters--sex drive. Married men tend to have lower testosterone. It's evolution's way of encouraging the wandering mate to stay home. (In newly divorced men, T levels rise again, as the men prepare to re-enter the competition for a mate.) If aging men start to routinely boost their testosterone levels, and their sexual appetite, to earlier levels, will they further upset the foundations of that ever endangered social arrangement called the family? "What happens when men have higher levels than normal?" asks James M. Dabbs, a psychology professor at Georgia State University. "They are just unmanageable."

Dabbs, the author of Heroes, Rogues and Lovers, a book about the importance of the male hormone, is another researcher who believes that T counts for a lot in any number of male moods and behaviors. "It contributes to a boldness and a sense of focus," he insists. It's possible for the scientific community to come to such disparate conclusions on the stuff, not just because the research is slim but because the complexities of human behavior are deep. If we're verging on a moment when testosterone will be treated as one more renewable resource, we may soon all get to focus more clearly on just what it does. But if men, in a culture where the meaning of manhood is up for grabs, look to testosterone for answers to the largest questions about themselves, they are likely to be disappointed. One thing we can be sure of is that the essence of manhood will always be something more complicated than any mere substance in the blood.
This article was printed in Time 4/24/2000, I hope I did not go overboard by posting it all, but it is well writen and comprehensive. It along with the other article I posted, which i got off the net, are among many that have fired an interest that I think might be shared on this board. if I've overestimated the scope of that again I'm sorry for using so much space.

Oh,since the articles are available on the net for no charge and I'm not selling them for profit i'm as sure as i am about anything that no copyright laws apply.

OK TJorphan,

I read all that stuff you posted...and at the end of it all I still feel like nobody really knows anything.

I'm of a like mind redongdo, but it is an interesting topic and I was hoping to find some first hand encounters with the stuff among the mongers. Nothing like experience.

TJorphan
Have you seen much on Testosterone precursors such as 4-andostenediol,andostenedione,DHEA,ect.(All pill forms and bought legally in the U.S.) Which are claimed to be broken down in the body to increased testosterone especially when taken with an herb called Terris Tribulus?The increase in testosterone has been said to be hard on some peoples hairlines so if anyone is fighting that battle they may want to consider that.
Taxibob

I'm 56 and have been taking testosterone for about three years. My serum testosterone had fallen way below the normal range for someone my age and my doctor prescribed a new (then) patch called Androderm. I apply one to my back (NOT scrotum) every evening and the slow release mechanism administers it in what is supposed to be normal fashion. I've noticed fairly good results. My libido is back to about where it was and I am again having good results with the ladies. My serum reactive testosterone levels on my last test were back up in the normal range for someone my age. I gotta believe this stuff works.
E_C_J

I'm new to testosterone taxibob, i'm just now reaching an age where I'm experiencing Father Time in a less than pleasent way,so no, I've not heard of the product of which you speak. I'm lead to believe though that the current line of hormones represents a big improvement over those that went before, but I'm actually looking for folks who can confirm or deny all the promises like Juan, Thanks.

Ive tried androstenedione[spelling?] on a recommendation from a friend.Its available in
most health food stores.Its supposed to release
bound up testosterone.After trying it a few times,
I noticed no difference at all.Athletes also
use it to bulk up.There are warnings on the
bottle about liver damage,not using more than 3
times a week,and not using alcohol.The NBA
made it an illegal substance and will suspend
players if they are caught{coke and speed are ok}

Hey guys, I was asking about Androgel awhile back, it's that Testosterone gel that came out a couple of summers ago. I've yet to go to the doc to get my levels checked and maybe get a perscription (Pride I suppose). I did run across it's over the counter equilvilent, it's called "TestroGel-Transdermal Androgenic Gel". I've heard alot of good things about over the counter hormone replacement therapys first and second hand but I was wondering if anyone on the board has tried this stuff? It promises Desire,Drive and Performance, fact or snake oil?I'm not getting any younger and sooner or later I'm going to break down and get some help I'm just wondering if this is the easiest way to go, it's about $50 cheaper than the real McCoy and you don't need a script but it's still $95, so what do you think?
I've tried Viagra and it delivers as promised but it doesn't really help the Libido

Some of these topical gels/creams cause a significant body odor (stinks worse than a skunk)

I noticed a drop-off in libido a couple of years ago and went to get my testosterone measured. My total testosterone was okay but something called "reactive testosterone" was real low (like a 75y/o would be). My doctor prescribed Androderm (its a patch that you apply daily to your back - 1 or 2 a day as the doctor orders.) No smell, no fuss, no muss and it really helped the old libido. First week with the patch I celebrated with 3 sessions with Tanya, 2 with Teresa, 1 with Viviana and 1 with Rosie. Talk about a kid in a candy store. I'm still using the patch and happy as a clam.
E_C_J

How do you know clams are happy?

Because they look and smell like pussy - you would be "happy as a clam" if you were surrounded by other "giant pussies" too.

Clams are only happy during High Tide - jezz don't you guys know anything!

Thanks, TJorphan, for posting the testosterone article from Time, even though when I first saw it in spring 2001 - I subscribe to the paper edition - I thought, "Damn, their rack sales must be down. This is National Enquirer stuff."

A good opener for a very hot subject, but not the ultimate resource. You'll notice that in a lot of journalism these days, a subject will be approached from a neutral point of view, then you get hit with 'pro' arguments for a while, followed by an equal and opposite broadside of 'con' issues, leaving you feeling like you've learned nothing except that there are some issues out there. It's everywhere - anybody read politics at all? - but especially bad when biologists get involved.

Basically they're a knowledgeable but effectively unemployable group, and the only way many keep their jobs is by publishing. So you get a lot of tripe, including the deluge of articles that say 'X' is good for you', and 'No, 'X' is bad for you' that leaves you so confused you don't want to ingest anything except USP-approved liquid food taken intravenously. And don't get me started on the AIDS industry.

Testosterone: In response to the article, Redongo very correctly wrote:

"I read all that stuff you posted...and at the end of it all I still feel like nobody really knows anything."

Well, Redongo, you sure got that right. Nobody really knows anything, so you get all sorts of crap comin' at ya, good and bad, yes and no, trade-off this, controversy that, the FDA stern, the right-to-my-own-lifers screaming for access. The proof that it's all at a pre-scientific stage is that if anything were really known, half the population of the world would be lined up at pharmacies getting their bottles (or patches) of elixir. And maybe more than half, since some women would be looking to enhance their sex drive (a chronic problem, as we know).

[This rant applies to anti-aging supplements as well. We know nothing, but people have been buying snake-oil for eons in the hope that they're partaking of the fountain of youth...such that by now, eons later, if anything were known, really *known* to be effective, it would be a staple product in the culture]

(1) You can follow discussions on testosterone and other stuff (e.g., the 'male tonic of the month') in the newsgroup alt.support.impotence. There's even occasionally some science there. At least one apparently bone-fide doctor posts there to keep the alchemy factor down.

(2) Testosterone has a bad rep re side-effects, so choose your (unscientific) source to 'bone up' on them. I've seen the unsubstantiated claim that the oral gel capsule Andriol, however, available without prescription in TJ, is the least likely of modern products to do you harm (which makes you ask: maybe because it doesn't really do much of anything at all?)

(3) But testosterone is a steroid, and US law forbids its importation. Zero tolerance. So if you're going to try it via self-medication, invest in a good smuggling pocket sewn into your clothes (in 20 years of going to TJ and crossing other border points I've never once been asked to empty my pockets or remove clothing, so you'll probably be OK).

(4) Andriol is also available in Thailand (where for linguistic reasons it gets pronounced as 'Andrion'), again no prescription required, for about B10-B15 per capsule, ca. 1/3 the Mexican price. In the Philippines, I've heard it's sold in the Mercury drug store chain, no word on price. In TJ you'll be seeing bottles of 30 capsules containing 40 mg of active ingredient each, around US$33 (try the discount pharmacies), In Thailand they come in foil bubble packs, 10 to a sheet, so you can pick up a box of 100 for B1300 - B1500 or so, maybe $US30. A net search using Google shows importers selling boxes of 60 caps, didn't check the price since it seems you're running a good chance of having your package seized at customs anyway.

(5) You can get on the net and read how the manufacturer intends it to be used. There's an initially high ramp-up level which levels off to about 120 mg a day, that's 3 capsules, so your bottle's gonna last you 10 days - probably not enough time for you to figure out whether it's having an effect on you. Give it a few rounds and see; if it seems to have a positive effect, go to a doctor and tell him what you discovered. A sympathetic one, that is, not one who's on the wrong side of the controversy. There will probably be a fair amount of expensive testing involved if the guy's doing the right thing. Proper testing, the questions to ask and the answers you should get, are outlined in alt.support.impotence every once in a while, and might be in the newsgroup FAQ.

(6) Yes I've tried it, but not at the levels suggested...only in alternative on-demand, before-the-act ways, in varying dosages and in various combinations with other things. And guess what...I still don't know anything about it either.

http://musclemonthly.com/print/010515-ullis-hormone-replacement-therapy.htm Interesting testosterone aid, anyone ever try this stuff? I ordered some, will report on it in a couple fo months.

Are you ordering online or via perscription?

This subject has another half century to go before it's resolved, and luckily I won't be around to find out if I'm being too optimistic. In the meantime you might want to read a book that's had a fairly good reputation over the last couple of years:

Eugene Shippen: The Testosterone Syndrome

I haven't read it, I'm just passing on the title since it shows up at least once a week on alt.support.impotence.

I mentioned in an earlier post that Andriol...an oral form of testosterone...is available OTC in TJ, and pretty much all over the world, actually, except in North America. I forget the source I was skimming recently, but speculation was that of the 40 mg of active ingredient, only 2 to 3 mg would make it through the liver into your system. No wonder it's considered 'safe'.

Use your dollars wisely...maybe on better girls.

I have been taking Testosterone for six years on a doctor's prescription. I began to notice a decline in my interest in the chicas and my abilities to service them. Viagra helped the structural issues but there was something missing.

A series of blood tests showed that my total testosterone was near the low end of normal but that the "Free/reactive" testosterone was way, way down (near the "normal" levels for a 75 year old male).

My doctor (a woman in her 30s) put me first on 2.5 mg per day of Androderm (a patch worn of the back). This sufficed for a while but then we had to up the dosage to 5.0 mg per day. This took hold and my total and reactive testosteron levels are both on the high end of normal. My interest in chicas is back (big time), my ability to get the job done is greatly improved and my enjoyment of the whole thing is once again primo.

Only problem is when my cute 30 something doctor exams my johnson, now I invariably raise major wood and always get a clever remark from her about it.

ECJuan

ECJuan:

Thanks for the insight.

Is your doctor in SoCal? It's apparently fairly hard to find doctors sympathetic to 'the cause'. Is she an endocrinologist? It's important that a number of factors get measured before therapy is decided upon (and even then...). Lots of endos just won't go there, or worse, don't know how to go there, or even worse yet, don't care that they don't know.

Are you comfortable with posting her name and whereabouts? (Even if she isn't an endo.)

Ecjuan, I found a doctor and did the tests. I talked the doctor into prescribing the Androgel for me on a trial bases for 3 months. Then I found out it is $180 a month for the stuff! I'm willing to try it out, but not at that price. My insurance just laughed when I asked if it was covered. You wouldn't have any extra you want to sell cheap?

Guys,

Unfortunately my doctor is here in North Carolina where I live. She is a General Practitioner with a good solid background in Endocrinology.

She said that my Androderm would be covered by my insurance as long as my tests showed my levels for BOTH Total and Free Testosterone were below the 'normal' threshold for someone my age. The insurance folks bellied up to the bar without a peep, for once.

The tests for checking the two levels are fairly routine blood tests. The 'Free' Testosterone test usually needs to be sent to a special lab and takes about 10 days to come back.

There are Federal limits as to how much can be written on a single script. Current max is 6 months. Might be worth it to see if Androderm is available in Mexico (either 2.5mg or 5.0 mg). Prices might be alot cheaper if it is.
If you are taking supplemental testosterone of any type you should have your PSA monitored fairly regular as it can cause prostate cancer.

ECJuan

PSA?

ECJuan:

Thanks for your quick reply. *Had* to be East Coast, didn't it. Headed 12 time zones away from NC in six days. Anyway, thanks. I'd had my total T checked this summer (for a second time, to establish a baseline in case anybody figures out what to do with it someday), but I didn't know enough to ask for a reading on the 'free T', which is presumably all that really matters.

In previous posts I've gone on about Andriol. What appears to be a fair and lengthy discussion on it can be found at

http://www.truemuscle.com/profile.html

for anybody who cares. Knocks the wind out of what I thought to be the case and which I posted in this thread.

It *is* available in Mexico and many other places over the counter (but being a steroid it's illegal to bring back to the States; zero tolerance).

Drugs are presented in alphabetical fashion at the web site.

Putanero:

PSA

Prostate Specific Antigen...name given to a blood test for prostate troubles, recommended starting in late 40's. Used as an adjunct to (but discouraged as a replacement for) the very invasive digital prostate exam.

Never mind asking why I choose women doctors for my physicals.

So thats what Candie was trying to do when I took her upstairs at Adelitas!A very invasive prostate exam.

Thanks for explaining PSA Koro

Putanero

ECJUAN;

Tried to find Androderm and Androgel in TJ about a year ago. No luck. Pharmisit at Costco in TJ told me that it is not availible in Mexico at this (that) time.

KORO;

Bought a few of those bubble packs of Andriol last spring and used them as directed for several weeks while in Asia. Seemed to increase lust, interest, arousal and stamina. But then again that could just be the LOS effect. Didn't feel any effects I felt were worth a black mark on my passport so I didn't try bringing any back to the states.

Hello Hombres, It's great to be a new member, Great info. Help me out if you can. I'm 42 and starting to fell my age. The time I spend thinking about sex everyday is beginning to wane and my performance is not what it used to be. Quite frankly I'm beginnig to get a little depressed. I've read a bit about testosterone gel and I checked in on the thread here and I'm really leaning toward giving ot a try. Would anyone care to share any current experiences with me including any health care porvider in the San Diego area that prescibes it and how much it takes to get started ?

Truegrit,
Besides the gel there is a very effective testosterone patch applied to your back. I noticed the same symptoms you did about 5 years ago and had my testosterone checked by my doctor. Turns out there are two different tests: one for total testosterone and one for free or reactive testosterone. I had low scores on both. Turned out one of "mis juevos" had stopped producing altogether and the other was only operating at half speed. The doc prescribed a 2.5mg patch of Androderm that did the job for a while. She had to up the dosage to 5mg (standard dose) last year to keep the levels up. The old libido is back, I can get the job done a respectable number of times per week for my age (late fifties) and can manage a couple of double-headers now and then. Without the patch I'd probably be growing tits and playing for the other team. <grin>. Check out Androderm with your doctor. You don't want to take it, though, if your own testosterone levels are normal - increases your risk of prostate cancer.
ECJuan

I have been wearing a 5mg Androderm patch for about the last 30 days and it does work. You wear one a day for about a 24 hour period. I am in training for my Rio trip next week. They prescribe 1 a day but when I get on the plane I will have 4 or 5 patches all over my body. I will look like the refrigerator with "Sticky Notes". Between Testosterone Patches - Viagra and Cialis I will have all the HELP I need. Thanks - Hemp

Can you get these patches in Mexico?

If you guys are not too squeamish about injections, You can buy a testosterone shot at almost any pharmacy called sostanon for about 7 bucks. It gives you 250 mg of test time released for a month.

I heard the injections give on uneven release and lead
to irritability or aggressiveness

Truegrit,
I've been replacing a number of homones for awhile now, including testosterone for the last 18 months. Like Ecjuan, I had myself checked because of my lower libido and found low free testosterone levels. My doc put me on a testosterone prescription cream which is done by a compounding pharmacy here in SD. Rub the cream on twice a day and bingo, I'm like a 25 year old again...you can e-mail me here at CH for more details....also, if you've had a vasectomy that could be contributing to the reduced levels I'm told...

Is there anything wrong with using testosterone cream as lubricant?

Not if you like ladies with DEEP voices!!!!

I posted this same response in "Andro"

I have some Andriol which is a testosterone replacement I got while I was in Thailand. It's not as strong as some of the supplements but it is great for us mongers who like to screw 2-3 girls a day. I took Andriol and I felt like a porn star, I had a morning wood all afternoon. Also it helped me workout while in Thailand, I went to the gym everyday. The only problem with Andriol is you may gain some water weight if you drink alot of fluids.

Does anyone know where I can find Andro Gel anywhere
near Tijauna,and what about Andriol what's it like and where can I find it?

Can it be bought in Rio? Where?

Anyone have some recent data/stories on steroids?

They give you small balls and a shriveled up dick, big tits , acne, a bad temper, and liver cancer.

Enjoy !!

So, what are the drawbacks?

I'm looking for any pharmacetical Tetosterone like patches or
Gel in TJ. I'm not intereted in needles and the product I would most like to find is androgel. Can anyone point me to any pharmacies that carry anything like that? I would even
be willing to travel as far as Ensenada

Most pharmacies will have the Mexican version of Androgel. It is called Lowtiyel 1%. No script needed in Mexico. It is $35 for 14 packets. A fraction of the U.S. price based on Costco pricing. Get it down there. Just don't get in trouble with U.S. Customs.

Now there's a prompt reply !
Only took 5 years to get an answer.

Hope Tjuncle is still not desperately searching the pharmacy selves in TJ.