OH... MY... GOD... I can't believe I read he whole thing. It looks like it was a total madhouse here last night. I kind've wish y'all had shut the fuck up if ya didn't have anything intelligent to ask. But at the same time I was crackin' up reading the side conversations.

I'm hoping that there is a TJR sequel here. We could learn quite a bit of important stuff if she shows up periodically. Better for them, better for us.

I learned so little, except for the gay prostitute thing.

You guys suck (no pun intended).

I find TJR's comment "because they sort of scoffed at me when i asked if they had fallen in love with a client" a bit unfortunate. If this was true, then maybe she was not making necessary emotional connections with some of the prostitutes she was interviewing.

There are definitely women who are open minded with the relationships with their clients in TJ. They may not be actively "looking for their love" in the bar, but if it happens then they would pursue it. Some relationships goes to the full scale, living together, having kids, and getting married. These happen, and from what I see and hear, many of them are genuine (in their original intent, anyway).

At the same time, many don't end well (even after marriage and kids).

Byron: Interesting--I've been thinking about that comment of hers, too, all day (while hangin' in the Zona Norte, I might add).

You may be surprised to hear (based on my past history of posting) that I totally agree with you. I don't have your knowledge of "full scale, etc..." and remain a bit of a cynic about the chance of successful outcomes. But I *KNOW* that girls fall in love with clients somewhat frequently -- I've seen it happen enough. It isn't rare among the girls, I'm sure.

I'll bet that you are correct, that TJR didn't get the full story. But why the "scoffing" that she reports?

One thought is that the chicas constantly run into dudes who are starving for something more intimate. Theres no shortage of dudes who want a working girl to fall for them. I'm sure the women put lots of effort creating the illusion of intimacy to make sure that they get business. (I call this "the most bankable illusion in the ZN.") So TJR's question probably struck a nerve, considering the amount of acting they do.

Another thought that occurred to me is that there might be some stigma about admitting certain things to an outsider. It is probably less shameful to say "I do this because I need the money" and "Even though I do this, I date 'normal' men when I'm not working."

But having said all this, I'm still puzzled. In research that I've seen before, involving US strippers and others in "adult" lines of work, many girls admit that their boyfriends usually begin as clients.

So maybe the girls scoffed at TJR's question. Self-report inventories and interviews are surely essential to TJR's research, but they are also notoriously unreliable and biased (and even invalid at thmes).

Or maybe it is TJR, with her own biases about the business, who is actually scoffing at the possibility. In general, she appears pretty nonjudgemental. But I'd be surprised if she is bias free... After all, she is, like many of us, entrenched in our puritanical, politically correct American culture.

Or maybe the girls are more honest with another female than they would be with a potential source of income.

Byron said: "many of them are genuine"
How many is "many"? 10? 20? And how does this number of "genuine relationships" compare to the 100's/1000's of working girls coming through TJ?

I think TJResearcher did just fine and that the bias that exists is more likely from participants here who do not represent the majority of clients. Sure, genuine relationships can happen, but the number that exist compared to the many illusions must be tiny.

"Hi, my name is Maria and I fuck 20 guys a night. #5 was cute, but #14 has a better job. If I can convince #14 I love him, I can escape this shithole. Gotta go, here comes #21, he smells funny, but he always gives me a great tip if I rub my cheek gently across his chest."

I gotta agree with d'Artagnan on this one. The girls admitted that they sometimes fell in lust with their clients, and sometimes felt genuine affection for them. This is far more in keeping with my observations and experiences than the prospect of bar girls falling madly in love with their clients on a regular basis.

I have my sources. Of course, illusons far out number real ones. I'd say, among "dates", the ratio of real/fake might be 1%.

But, at places like CC, many (and I'd venture to guess 20% or more) girls have "genuine" or "serious" boyfriends who they met as clients. While their relationships last, they can be as real as any. The problem is, many of them don't last long. And this is without a doubt partly due to the place where they met. You can't always blame chicas, either. The guys who frequent bars are not the type who is faithful to one pussy. Plus, many guys have hidden agendas.

TJR makes one good point, though. This thinking "not paying is the proof of real relationship" is largely a gringo misconception. Sure, girls would use freebies as some sort of proof early on in the relatoinships. But, at the end of the day, "men pay" in Mexico. And this has nothing to do with them being prostitutes.

On the methodology of TJR, dogster points out that interviews do not always provide the truth.

About the only motivation that chicas would become open to TJR during interviews is, if they consider her (1) helpful or (2) a friend. For questions regarding HIV, STD and mental health, many of them might think her as (1). For questions regarding their personal relationships, they probably need to consider her as (2).

If TJR was "scoffed" by chicas, maybe she did not achive intimate enough friendships with the chicas. To be fair, this may not be TJR's fault. How common could a Yae PhD student (who needed a translator) and a TJ street chica from Sinaloa be?

I would also add that even the "genuine" relationships (whatever the hell that means) are more often based upon lust and affection than "true love" (whatever the fuck THAT is...)

I am not arguing about that. There are many forms of "relationships".

What defines here is the matter of intent. (1) Is the reason why she is with you "you" or "money"? (2) Is she willing to develop the relationships further?

(Needles to say, "your money" is a part, but not whole, of "you", as money constitutes a requirement in most relatonship. This is true everywhere.)

Interesting comments from the girls perspective on love, lust, affection and money. It takes time to develop a relationship and most of these relationships are five minutes negotiating price and service followed by 20 to 30 minutes in a hotel room. Not much time to develop a deep close loving meaningful relationship. So I would agree that most of the time it's just another day at work. Most of these customers they never see again, the ones that they do see again might prefer to go with another girl next time so they may not be with them many times as the client seeks out variety.

On the other hand, that does not explain much of my first hand experiences as well as reports on this board. It seems to me that many people, particular here on this board, frequent the zona. In that case they do get to know the girls more than the infrequent client. Many have their favorite providers that they are with frequently.

Some of the newbie zona girls are seeking out the gringo for their ticket out of the world they find themselves in. They may or may not find that guy. They may not be in love but they are seeking a husband.

Some of these girls have developed this jealousy thing where they get upset if they see you with another girl or you do not pay enough attention to them. Their girls friends report your activities to them. Not sure how much is real, how much is play acting, how much is how they look in front of their peers, how much is protecting their meal ticket, etc. But they do go through the motions. I have had this experience first hand.

I just returned from a trip to one girl's hometown where I spent some time with her, her mother, and her siblings etc. She introduced me as her novio and asked me not to mention anything about the zona. I don't know about "love" but that seems to me to establish some sort of relationship.

I think many of these girls have various degrees of emotional issues such as low self-esteem, depression, etc. Blocking off deeper relationships with a few of their clients may be an attempt to protect themselves and not get hurt emotionally. They may consider a relationship with some of these guys but they realize that in most cases it's just a job and that many of the guys are lying to them or trying to play them or just may not return to be seen ever again. It is difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff when you only talk with some one for a few minutes. Best to play safe than get your hopes up just to get hurt again.

Some of these girls have a boyfriend or are spending full time raising a family. They are not seeking out a fuller deeper relationship.

But as I see it, it is not that much different than any other work place. Most of the time it is just a job. But some of the time, maybe infrequently, a more serious relationship develops. People are human afterall. It may be that in this atmosphere of paid for sex, the relationship appearance may blur somewhat. What seems to be a relationship may just be a client/provider transaction. Most events here are just a transaction. Some events may be a transaction where the two people are friendly. Some events may develop into something more meaningful. A lot of people are playing each other. That, and deeper relationships take more time and effort. Perhaps more time and effort than most clients spend at the zona.

On another related note:

These girls are providing a fantasy for a fee. It amazes me how many guys on this board talk about how much the girls get into it when they are getting off. Or how much the girl is enjoying it, etc. etc. On my last visit to the zona just a few days ago, I was chatting with two girls at a booth that I knew. One had just got back with a client. Some how the conversation got on the issue of sex. Strange topic to chat about in a whorehouse, I know. The girls all pretended to be in ecstasy at the bar, breathing hard, saying 'oh baby … oh baby', putting their heads back, writhing around in the booth, etc. Each trying to outdo the other. They even demonstrated by example what they do for different clients. Hey, as far as I can tell, the guys believe these girls are enjoying it because they want to believe it. And because the girls want them to believe it. There seems to be a general denial that this is a paid service where the guy is paying the girl to put on a good performance. Nothing wrong with it. I do not see how the fantasy hurts either party. The girl gets paid and the guy has a good time. If the girls laugh and joke about how they fake it with their customers when they are talking with me, you can only surmise that they fake it even more and talk about it even more among themselves. Oh, and for you info. The girl that was saying 'oh baby …. Oh baby' mentioned a few other words. She does not speak english but she did have her girlfriend teach her some english words to use while in bed with the customer. Those few words of ecstasy were about the only english words she knew and she performed them well at the bar. If she performed half that good in the room then her customer was getting his moneys worth. And she asked me if she was pronouncing them clear enough. Her words and meaning were quite clear. BTW, I had a good time in the booth that day chatting with these ladies. They really did do some delightful performances.

TL8, I agree with your comment that some girls like to protect themselves by blocking off deeper relationships with their clients.

After all, the mongers who are dating chicas should ask themselves. (1) Is the reason why you are with her "she" or "sex"? (2) Are you willing to develop this relationship?

Most mongers are uncertain about these questions. So, chicas should have doubts about them.

BTW, TJR answered to Bashful's comment "think of us next time you make love to your husband" by "ick".

Fortunate for her, she does not know how much ickey it is to think about Bashful during any sex.

Oh, ick.

The girls work at the bars to make lots of relatively easy money (by Mexican standards) they don't go into it with the intention of meeting someone and falling in love. A common misconception is that the chicas are all looking for a gringo to take them back to America. The girls love Mexico, and now that they have money there's no incentive for them to leave. I've had conversations with many of the girls regarding some of their American regulars. The impression I've gotten is these guys are head over heels in love with these girls. However the only thing the girls want to know is how expensive an area their regulars live in or how expensive their car is..it's nearly always all about the money, IMHO.

Also "ideally" in Mexico the women stay home and raises the kids while the men work. As Byron noted "men pay in Mexico".

Remember your paying just as much for the fantasy of being desired by a beautiful women as you are for using her body, a good provider knows this and plays along with that fantasy. It's the guys that screw things up when they confuse the fantasy for real emotions.

Toehead

I am not painting the picture that all girls are looking for love in the bar. I specifically rejected the notion. Also, d'Art somewhat misread my post. When I said, many of "them" are genuine, I obviously meant many of the "relationships that go full scale" (i.e. living together, having kids, and marriages) are genuine. I did not use the word "many" relative to all the girls in the bar. When I used "many" next time, I specified 20% as those who have boyfriends who are their former clients at CC. And that number was my "guess", which I explicitly said.

The bottom line is, I know of a few chicas who are open minded about the relationships with their clients. They even told me there was an advantage to doing it in the bar. This way, the guys fully know their job. The women don't need to either (1) break the news or (2) keep it as a secret.

You guys impress me to no end. If only every anthropologist had research subjects that were this self-reflexive. I will ponder on your comments and try to integrate them into my final product. I'll make a few quickies here.
I'll also direct you to the main chat board to view a clairfying comment on 'favoritos' (rather than post off-topic here).

1) Establishing trust and repoir with any research subject happens over time, quite a long time actually, which is why anthropologists have to stay 'in the field' for so long. Its not just to make 'real-world' observations, its equally about networking. One of the primary methods is called the snowball sample, which relies on gaining the trust of one informant, and working through their social network. Unfortunately, that is more difficult that it seems, especially when their is widespread distrust or resentment against researchers, interference, and strangers wanting to know intimate details about your own life for their own purposes (purposes which you don't know, and which you have no way of knowing how they will affect you). A lot of women refused to talk to me even for one minute. I went through months of this before I gradually learned how to make my approach more attractive and less threatening. I was able to get more interviews and less refusals over time, but not a day went by that I didn't get a refusal. And in my opinion, they have every right to their privacy, and every right to be annoyed that yet another gringa or gringo is asking them questions about their life that they don't have time for, and that aren't necessarily relevant to their daily life.

At its roots, classic anthropology involves participant observation and daily fieldnotes of conversations and observations. In order to get funded, todays anthropology requires a much more rigid, systematic approach, especially when you work in a city - you have to have a target group, know the questions you want to ask before you go in rather than discovering the interesting questions while you are there... Imagine the discomfort involved (for both parties) when the foreign student says, "sooooo.... you're a PROSTITUTE!" (there is an inherent violence just in that initial label that made every day in the field painful)
- obviously, I didn't actually say that, but it was implied...

"I know you dont know me, and that you are very busy, and that you are just here to get your card stamped, but will you sit down with me for an hour and let me ask you all sorts of intimate questions that you probably wouldn't answer truthfully even to your friends?"

- Even so, I think for the most part the answers were actually honest, primarily because i was NOT involved in their intimate life and they didn't have anything to really gain or lose by lying... i think also that because they had to volunteer their time, and take time to find out about the project first, that i ended up with folks who were genuinely interested in the project and found value in it....

Back to the topic of love, affection, and their responses. I guess I wouldn't say scoffed so much as snickered or snorted. Basically, they were amused. This is not to say that all of them responded that way. Some just said a quite 'no'. Some said "NO WAY! NEVER!" A few really HATE their job, and their clients as a whole. Some pondered the question before answering, wherein I gave some additional prodding. Some said "sure, I already have" (wherein I would ask for the details about how and what happened next). Have you ever, could you ever imagine, would you ever, all can elicit a different response.

Interestingly, I too thought many might be looking to get attached and cross to the U.S. But most of them want to be near their families. They love Mexico. When you think about it, they are trying very hard to be successful in a country with a lot of problems. In a way, maybe it is a labor of love. When asked if they would move if given a chance, and the economic support, many of them said no.

As a native Californian barraged with border/immigrant politics growing up, and as someone who is comparatively privledged, I wrongly assumed that they all wanted to be like us. That couldn't be further from the truth. And in learning that, I realized that even though Mexico is corrupt and filled with social inequality, poverty, and a LOT of serious problems, the overall cultural-value system of many people in Mexico has many components that are hard to find in the U.S. these days. I even learned to relax.

I really have to go, but thanks for your feedback on the topics, it helps me immensely to get a variety of perspectives through which to sort all this out.

TJR

I hope you understand we are all supportive of your effort. Dogster and I have our own "field research" experience on the issue, not to mention our own sets of PhDs (ha ha), so we are simply playing the part of critical readers of your thesis.

On the issue of the women who like to move to the US vs stay in Mexico. I think the key is their ability to speak English. At bars like AB/CC you meet chicas who are fluent in English, and some of them talk about moving to the US, if not for themselves then for their kids.

(the cause-effect relationships of these two is somewhat obscure. The chicas who learned English probably did so because they had cultural affinities with the US).

It's true that a chica who speaks english is going to acclimate easier but regarding the issue of kids it's my understanding that most would prefer their children to be raised in Mexico rather than America. Not only to be closer to the family but also because they feel their children will be better adjusted and happier in Mexico and from what I've seen I have to agree. The problem is when the kids reach maturity there just aren't many opportunities for them.

I'm sitting here laughing my ass off for a variety of reasons.

1) If prostitution is the "oldest profession," then what we are talking about has to be the "oldest discussion." (Yes, I've made that comment here somewhere on this site before. But may I add that this is also the "longest discussion," especially on this site.) For any newbies here, please take note that this discussion has taken place in various forms since the stone age (or the creation of the internet, I'm not sure).

2) If you read the tone of the discussion, you might get the impression that some of us actually disagree with each other. But if you look at the content, there's not very much difference of opinion. That's kind've amusing in itself. And we all seem to want to be the know-it-all.

3) I'm not simply the client of prostitutes. I'm a PARTICIPANT OBSERVER!!!

4) We bring a girl in here and everybody starts acting out in their own way. That is one thing that was amusing about that chatroom discussion. Some act like 12 year olds, trying to get a reaction from TJR. Some have a thing about trying to be helpful. Some try to show off how intelligent they are (and did a great job, as far as I can tell...) Some get paranoid (e.g., the Mexico Chat). And some get smugly amused for no good reason (oops - that was me). I gotta say all this is verrry entertaining.

5) Club Hombre is a bit like methadone maintenance for heroin addicts. My internet addiction to this site isn't as risky as playing in the gentlemen's playground known as the Zona Norte, and it is starting to eat into my time down south. Does that make me a heroine addict?

6) This topic has kind've intrigued me, cracked me up, and made me nervous for awhile. Check out my trip report (from several months ago) titled "I married a TJ Prostitute."

7) This whole topic is a bit OFF TOPIC with respect to TJResearcher's thesis, as far as I can tell. Maybe we should start an OFF the OFF TOPIC section? Or better yet, lets just argue about it.

Yours in behavioral science. Woof.

Oh, and one more thing. TJR - may I suggest you get a spell checker?! I'm beginning to think you might actually be Westfargo (a former poster here). LOL, Dogster

And yet one more thing -- That report I mentioned was posted 02/22/02 under Trip Reports. Jane Goodall doesn't have a thing over me...

2002/02 Dogster - I Married a TJ Prostitute 02/22 02:21pm

TJR:

*Everyone* who is not brain damaged is self reflexive, we just have this electronic tool to share our thoughts.

I would suspect that SGs are thinking about their situation just as much as we think about ours.

TL8, I think you nailed it with your comments above. Sure, there are exceptions and some grey areas, but I think your description fits the majority of these providers. And God bless 'em - I love it when she says, "Oh, I'm sooo hot for joo, bay-bee".

I agree. It's fun to get in deep conversations sometimes, but it would really suck if they all told the truth, all of the time.

"self-reflexive"

What does THAT mean? Does it mean self-reflective? Or does it mean jumpy, and habitually unthinking?

That pun might not have been intentional, but it cracked me up.

I know, yer all thinkin' Dogster needs to get laid. But I just GOT laid.

All right guys, I asked my novia how many of CC chicas have boyfriends they met at the bar.

Her answer. "Oh, everybody"

I rest my case.

Needless to say, I cannot be totally objective on my own relationship. What are more informative are the stories she tells me about other girls' relationships. And I hear some juicy ones.

For example, her best amiga had three relationships in the recent past. She had a baby with a Mexican who was not her customer. She still sees the guy occasionally, but they are not together any more.

There are two Americans BFs whom she met at the bar. She was madly in love with one of them. She thought he was serious about her, but he broke up with her. She cried over the breakup in my novia's house (my novia thinks the guy was never serious about her).

She "dates" the third BF frequently. My novia and I had dinner with them together several times. The amiga behaves as if she were totally his. But, according to my novia, she is not really serious about him.

I guess that just shows that the definition for "boyfriend" in the puta dictionary has MANY entries!

Byron:
Of course what you say is true. I wonder if this sort of thing indicates that TJResearcher may have missed a critical piece. I don't know, I really don't. I wonder if this indicates that researcher bias or chicas' cultural smokescreen may obscure certain truths. As participants in the scene, we sometimes see and experience things with chicas that don't meet cultural stereotypes or expectations.

Dogster

I have to say it is a bit naive for TJR to suggest "the most part the answers were actually honest, primarily because I was NOT involved in their intimate life and they didn't have anything to really gain or lose by lying".

First, things like condomless sex with their customers (which I am talking about in the context of HIV transmissions) is what most prostitutes would lie about, because they are breaking the regulations by doing so.

Second, it took a long time for me to gain the trust that my novia grants me now. And this is despite the fact that I was NOT involved in her intimate life by any stretch of imagination. There is a natural "guard" these girls put to shield their private lives. I suspect their primary motive for doing so is to try to separate their professional and private lives. These are the "jobs" that they do not like to be associated with.


Iluveputas

That's one of the things I tried to say in my post. But, there are many definitions of BFs among non-pro chicas, as wells.

Yes I fully agree Byron.
Most zona girls have novios or husbands.
Nearly all street girls have novios or husbands
Some zona girls have a toughguy boyfriend and a banker
One is for financial gain the other is for sexual gain.
As long as all are happy no harm done.

Sorry about breaking your friends heart , I have the affect on a lot of women

and on the condom note anybody who has spent real time in the zona know that most mongers do not use condoms and most girls let there good customers do bareback.
All encounters i have had with zona girls have all told me it was my choice and I went with condoms.

As far as what TJR has said it comes from a third party most of the time and then that is coming from the voice of a scared girl not really knowing who TJR is.
I applaud her for what she is doing but the chat was filled with some real silly questions.
I had to hold back many funny and true responses
but if youl ook at the transcript i did get a few in.
They were not just funny but true.
I really didnt get any new info from the chat but wish there was more info on the Hiv count in the zona.
TJ has the 2nd highest infection rate in Mexico so where are they coming from ?
The nice girls at the colleges ?
The girls at the local Cine ?
I dont think so

TJ does not want to scare off mongers with Hiv zona numbers. They would lose a lot of money with published figures.

So with that I say to all enjoy your hobby and stay safe
Take care
Milkman

I'd like to tease out the discrepancy between self-reports on condom use with clients by sex workers, and self-reports on condom use with sex workers by clients - in Tijuana. This is something important to talk about, and it hasn't been adequately addressed as a method concerning research on condom use practices by self-report (most are self-report, but a few researchers have done things like condom collecting in the rooms)

I'm thinking a quick set of questions to elicit as many participants as possible, perhaps on the main chat board, OR through word of mouth (which would be more effective?) Advice appreciated.
I would want this to be anonymous, of course, with answers sent via email NOT posted on the board, and no board names used (fake hotmail accounts or something). What kinds of honesty/trust issues should I consider regarding clients?

I guess my ultimate goal would be to compare the self-reports side by side, discuss possible reasons for the discrepancies, and suggest alternative methods. i.e. which is more reliable?

The questions I think would be important to include, and I want this to be short, would be something like (suggestions on phrasing would be helpful):

1) Have you been offered paid ORAL sex without a condom in Tijuana in the past 2 years?
If yes, How many times?______
If yes, by how many different providers? _______

2) Have you had paid ORAL sex without a condom in Tijuana in the past 2 years?
If yes, How many times?______
If yes, with how many different providers? _______

3) Have you been offered paid VAGINAL sex without a condom in Tijuana in the past 2 years?
If yes, How many times?______
If yes, by how many different providers? _______

4) Have you had paid VAGINAL sex without a condom in Tijuana in the past 2 years?
If yes, How many times?______
If yes, with how many different providers? _______

5) Have you been offered paid ANAL sex without a condom in Tijuana in the past 2 years?
If yes, How many times?______
If yes, by how many different providers? _______

6) Have you had paid ANAL sex without a condom in Tijuana in the past 2 years?
If yes, How many times?______
If yes, with how many different providers? _______

7) Have you paid more money for this service (including a higher tip)?

8) Were your providers (check all that apply):
Female______
Male______
Transgender_____

9) What kind of workplaces did these providers work in? (check all that apply)
Bar/Nightclub______
Street______
Massage Parlor______
Other:_______

I would skip the 'offered' questions and only ask what they did. How many times they had sex without a condom is important info, but how many times they were asked and did not agree to request might possibly confuse the interviewee.

TJR

I am glad that you are dealing with these questions. In my opinion, one thing that separates commercial sex in TJ from that in the US is the rampantness of condomless sex in the former.

The questions look good, but you probably like to get a rough idea of the "frequency" of condomless sex as well as the sheer number of them. For this purpose, it may be helpful to add general questions "How many times have had paid sex in TJ in the past 2 years? With how many different providers?"

Another question which "might" be informative is to ask guys the number of times that they ejaculated inside providers' mouth, vagina or anus.

There are some comments I can make on this topic, but I think I will hold it until you finish collecting the data because I do not like to influence others' response to your questions.

Good luck with your effort.

Collecting condoms in the room? Yecchh. What does this show? Many people flush the condom down the toilet... The emphasis on a more behaviorally-based measure has its merits, to be sure.

I think that carefully constructed self-report inventories, with completely face-valid questions, could be of value. If nothing else, you'll be able to quantify to some degree the reported discrepancies. But...

At the same time, there are inherent, significant limitations to self-reports, and face-valid questions in general. For instance the self-report inventories should never be taken as an accurate measure, IMHO, just a ballpark measure. You will always have to deal with factors like stigma and/or bragging, and these will probably lead to over- or under-reporting. There generally is no quality control for the information. But if you get a handle on the factors that influence reporting accuracy, then you can perhaps minimize their effects.

The psychometric and behavioral literature from psychology is full of discussions of the limitations of the self-report/self-monitoring approaches.

So, I'm not sure how you should proceed to get accurate info. Rather than trying to obtain the perfect measure, perhaps you should attempt to better understand the types of things that might bias your measures, and be frank about these limitations in your discussions.

It just occurred to me that you might want to check out the thread I started in January under Men's Health: Bareback Sex/The Joy of Bareback Sex. Lots of people weighed in with their opinions and beliefs about the topic.

Additionally, you may want to examine some of the posts about the most famous/infamous providers of condomless genital sex, e.g. Betty from Chiapas (CC) and Ariceli (SG), or the many more who provide condomless oral sex. If nothing else, you'll get a sense of many of our attitudes and experiences.

Another thought:
I'm not sure how much access you have to this site. But if you have full access, you can figure out that some members identified a few girls who provide condomless sex consistently, to just about anybody who wants it. If you interview these girls (without revealing that you've seen our reports, or the contents of our reports!!!!), then you can observe how they respond to your questions. Perhaps they will be completely honest with you. But if they are not completely honest, you might be able to better understand how and why they distort the truth.

When alcoholics are interviewed, they almost always underestimate, their consumption of alcohol by several orders of magnitude. It would not surprise me if prostitutes underestimate the amount of comdomless sex that they provide, perhaps for similar reasons.

BTW, when and if you read our posts, please remember that we did not write them with the idea that a female researcher would read them!

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I will add some questions to estimate frequency.

I do have a follow-up questions:
Byron, you said this:
"Another question which "might" be informative is to ask guys the number of times that they ejaculated inside providers' mouth, vagina or anus."
Can you elaborate as to why this would be separate? I mean, is it just a more precise measure of semen transmission (i.e. 'sex without a condom' might not include semen transmission/ejaculation)....
I think thats a good idea, I just want to make sure that was what you meant, and that I wasn't missing something.

I would definitely like to include comments/discussions from the site, with permissions. Even though this is a public forum, I'd like to obtain permissions when possible, and will change posted names regardless. I have strong feelings about 'original intent' and would not like anyone to feel that I have misused or misunderstood their comments.


However, I have already started a section on this through an ethnographic software program. This was one of the first things I did. Using the program can allow me to give a thematic estimate of particular comments, and data useful for an overall discussion even without direct quotes.

Thank you for the references to particular areas, Dogster.

I'd like to get the survey posted next week I think. I hope to get a larger response than I did the first time (the first sturvey was longer and included more personal information).

TJR

There are words "BBBJ" and "BBBJTC" on this board. The former is bareback (condomless) BJ, and the latter is bareback BJ to completion. With BBBJ, girls give guys condomless oral sex, but would not let them ejaculate in their mouth. They either move to vaginal (with or without condom) sex, or finish guys outside their mouths with their hands. With BBBJTC, girls receive semen into their mouths.

Many girls who provide condomless vaginal sex ask guys to "cum outside". This is apparently because of the fear of pregnancy on their part. From what I heard, many working chicas do not use birth control pills. This means, they tend to care less if guys cum inside their anus. Needless to say, the risk for HIV transmission is extremely high with this behavior.

At least once, my condom broke in TJ. This never happened to me anywhere else, so I thought it might have been due to the poor quality of Mexican condoms. Incidentally, I found out later that this girl had a reputation of being exceptionally "tight" on the Internet board (at Redsnake). My novia also believes condom breakages are often the result of the lack of proper lubrication techniques. Either way, you might like to have an entry for "accidental" condomless sex in addition to intentional ones.

Finally, although many customers demand condomless sex (oral, vaginal or anal) from women, there are also prostitutes who use condomless sex as their "edge" over other women. (and girls know which women give BB sex, and despise them)

Following up on Byron's point...

Wouldn't it be worthwhile to ask about overall frequencies (base rates)? How many times, total, has the respondent paid for sex over the last 2 years? How many people, total, has the respondent paid for sex over the last 2 years. That way, you could (1) turn the frequencies into proportions or percentages if you want, and (2) you could factor in the respondent's level of reported experience.

You may want to find out a little more info about the respondent. My guess is that the regular customers who live in or near TJ get offered "more" than dudes who come from afar. Once you are tagged as someone who is "reliable" and is likely to come back frequently, you are more likely to have "boundaries" dropped, IMHO, especially if you are, or are appear to be, "monogamous." So, my hypothesis is that frequent, regular visitors will be more likely to be offered unprotected sex than the occasional tourist. (What are the relevant factors?)

Of course, this is nothing like obtaining a random sample.

You might give respondents an opportunity to say more at the end of the questionnaire. "Is there something that you would like to add?" "Is there something we forgot to ask?" ("Is condomless sex something you would consider, or seek out? Why?")

Oops. I just re-read Byron's post. My "base rate" suggestion is basically just what he suggested.

TJR

You wrote "I guess my ultimate goal would be to compare the self-reports side by side, discuss possible reasons for the discrepancies"

One simple explanation is, girls know that condomless sex with their customers is illegal, and they do not like to admit the guilt in any forms.

A more subtle reason is, (as I touched above) the girls who provide BB sex are considered "rule breakers" among their co-workers. I have heard my novia trashing other chicas who do not use condoms. So, it is possible one reason why some girls suppress information about their condomless sex to you (or any outsider) is to protect their reputations.

To be sure, there are prostitutes who exploit the reputation as "BB providers (mostly for BBBJ)" among customers. But, even these women may try to keep such info as secrets to you (or any outsider). I don't think it is farfetched for me to suggest that these are "dirty" secrets for them.

TJR,

Forgive me if I am rehashing old posts. I have scrolled thru the above exchanges as well as the original chat rather quickly.

In your original chat I noticed two things that caught my attention, but were not further elaborated upon.

1. The girls are often hasseled by the police.
2. A fair number of the girls are in Mexico illegally, from places south or there, and are supporting extended families back home.

I have heard stories as to how the police prey on the girls, by intimidating them with threats. I wonder to what scale this goes on.

I have met a few girls from places south of Mexico. Although I am conversant in Spanish, like yourself I struggle when the conversation goes deeper than polite chitter-chatter. But the stories that I have heard of how some girls have struggeled to reach TJ, to be able to earn money to keep the family going are compelling.

I guess what I am saying is that I am drawn to trying to understand the dynamics of these class inequities at an individual level. If you could comment briefly on your insights to these type of situations, I would be interested in reading your words.

que le vaya bien,
Gitano