Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive 01	50		2004/03/21, 07:47 am

Ceenotes,

I think you have a very warped concept about cultura Brasileiro if you need to portray all Brasileira garotas the way you have. It is really an insult to Brasileiras and cannot be unsubstantiated. Ceenotes, you are obviously the counterpart of the macho Brasileiro with a attitude that Brasileira women are not to be trusted and strictly for pleasure and not much more. What the hell are you posting in Non-Pros with this type of attitude? I think you definitely have it all around. Not all women want to come to the USA. A lot of Americans marry in Brasil, settle down and have kids in Brasil. There are some distinct financial advantages living in Brasil. No doubt, there is definitely a big cultural difference, but not all Brasileiras are looking for a free ticket to the USA. I am sure there are many success stories where Americans have married Brasileiras and been quite happy. Anyway, that is all I really want to say on this subject.

Turk,


Your right, not everyone wants to come to America. Don't you think every country is like this? You can go to any city in the world and you can find love.
regardless of race either your from Europe, Asia or America the ladies in Brazil are looking for a genuine man.
A friend of mine just came back from Rio for the second time and living there for just under 3 months had a wonderful girlfriend. He never slept with anybody else but her and he enjoyed it. I asked him, will she be faithful until you return? and he said "I hope so."
Now having a girlfriend in Brazil while your living in the states has a big difference, compared to you living in Brazil.
Do you really think she is going to be patient all year long for you to visit. Unless your going to move to Rio and be with her or she is going to reunite with you somewhere, It's hard to call it your girlfriend from Rio.

BTW,

I speak to a few Brazilians girls here, time to time and they told me usually Brazilian ladies married to Americans ends in divorce or there so bored.
I think it's either ends because of the culture conflicts or they miss the macho-attitude of Brazil men.

CN

"You can go to any city in the world and you can find love."

Ah, a beautiful sentiment ...

CN and Turk:

I'm half Brazilian, half American (Brazilian immigrant parents, born in the States). I've been married to a brasileira for 10 years (she was a shoestore manager when I met her, before you get any silly ideas). I brought her here to the U.S. on a fiancee visa, and she's now a U.S. citizen. So far, so good. At the same time, I'm obviously one of those horrible macho Brazilian men because I "step out" on her a coupla times a year. I haven't beaten her, though - YET.... god knows I've been sorely tempted.. and vice-versa, I'm sure. When we were dating, my family (especially the ones that live in Brazil!) were sure that she just wanted me for money, her family were sure that I just wanted her to score some easy pussy and then dump her. In the meantime, she had to work hard to pry me away from my two other girlfriends (so much for me just wanting easy pussy - I was already getting that), and we were dirt-poor for the first couple of years after she got here.. she quit a good job and left her paid-for condo, car, etc. to come here and clean houses (so much for money).

Why am I writing this? Just to say that you can't generalize about anyone - not even about brasileiras. I've met plenty who are very openly angling for a rich gringo "ticket to ride", I've met plenty who wouldn't leave Brazil ever. Still, Brazil is very poor and there aren't a lot of opportunities - marrying your way out of Brazil is certainly attractive. As for brasileiras and the "macho-attitude of Brazil men", I've never met a girl who said - "I want to find a gringo because Brazilian men treat me bad." Sure, there are plenty of guys with Neaderthal attitudes, but there are plenty of kind-hearted men too. If a brasileira wants to find someone who isn't "machista", she can look a closer than GringoLand.

In the end, for you guys "looking for love" in Brasil, if you are lucky, perseverant, and open-hearted enough, you will find a girl who wants to be with you for YOU, not your money,etc. But that girl won't be the first one you meet in a Terma or at Help Disco, that's for sure!

BS

I'm glad that SOMEONE has articulated a great response to the multitude of posts that I’ve seen about “lousy local men, kind American” crap. It seems to be a dogma among sex tourists looking to justify their guilty feelings about traveling to get laid. It kind of goes hand in hand with the “I want a traditional woman rather than those American feminazi bitches” rants.

I love a GFE as much as anyone. I know that if all you bring to the deal is money, all she brings is a place to put your dick. You can find good women in your own country or others. Guys looking for “that special woman to love” by getting their info on boards like CH are a **special**, deluded bunch.

I gotta admit, I think Rio had the BEST pro experience I’ve ever had. I’ll bet that finding a “non-pro” by using advice here is like asking about home improvement in a sports bar.

smitopher. Some guys might want there home to look like a sports bar. That way they can have more fun while watching the Super Bowl.

By the way, have you ever ask the a Brazilian why their world champion "Futbol" team still cannot get into the Super Bowl?

CP

Has the Brasilian World Cup Champion futebol team ever even HEARD of the Super Bowl? And if so, why should they CARE about getting into it, considering that they have already beaten THE WORLD, and not just A FEW NORTH AMERICANS, to get their title.

RE: the allegedly mythical notion that Brazilian women want to marry foreigners because they're fed up with Brazilian men - I have a Brazilian friend who married a Uruguayan, and whose sister married a Venezuelan. I asked her why all the non brazilian marriages in her family. She replied that Brazilian men are not good marriage material, because (1) "they dont help" (with home and family chores) and (2) "there are so many women" especialy in Rio, that they think why should I get married and have a family when I can have one girl today, and another tomorrow. Just two carioca sisters' opinions, but perhaps an indication that there is some truth to turk's premise. There are of course many exceptions you can find to any generalization about any country.

In every culture you will find some women who want to marry foreign (especially American) men because they imagine them to be better in some regard to native men. The hundreds of international matchmaking services are a testimony to this fact. It doesnt mean that every Brazilian woman is fed up with Brazilian men and thinks American men are more desirable, but there are definitely some who do. As for Gilda's preference for men "in shape," this is a fairly typical concern for a carioca. Again, using my carioca friend as "expert witness", she also said that cariocas are very concerned about keeping their bodies in shape since they will be showing them off at the beach, and remarked that Americans have much more problems with being overweight. Perhaps this is what Gilda was concerned about.

Just spoke to two of my good buddies who just came back from Rio. As far as non-pro they scored at club Nuth.
they met two seperate beautiful ladies, one work for banco do Brasil and the other worked in a law firm. everything was good, they all left together to get some late night eats and back to the apt. they didn't nail until the next morning I guess the girls was holding out to the max but the girls were a bit angry because there apartment was in copacabana. So they knew what was up.
They did tell me lot of girls didn't speak english, but they got by with espanol.

CN

here's my opinion on this topic. when in brazil, it's important to use the shotgun approach. meaning, hit on everything you find attractive...and see what sticks. aka the bahian guy approach...these guys are infamous for being aggressive with anything female.

now for most of us, this is hard...because american chicks are so resistant to strange guys approaching them that we're not used to it. i've been shot down 12 times in a row (by 12 different girls) at an american club, so believe me, i am no player and i am no brad pitt.

but you gotta strip away inhibitions and go for it...and go for it often...partly because chances are, many of girls won't speak english, and this will knock a lot of them out of contention (unless your portuguese is pretty damn good).

one thing you will notice is girls generally are A LOT more open to dating guys much older than they are. an 18 year old girl with a 35 year old guy is not a big deal for example.

now this is a pretty extreme technique, but i've had success with what many affectionately refer to as the "Cuba technique". this takes planning, so i'm assuming you're going to be in brazil for more than 1 month.

print out business cards with your name, local number, email address, and a company name. i have a real one, you can just make up a fake one. but obviously, make sure you phone number and email are real.

when you see a hot girl (or any girl who's fuckable for that matter), go up to her and recite your script. it could be something like this...(excuse the grammar, as i said, my portuguese is crap)

oi, tudo beleza? (hi, how's it going)

meu nome e bomboa...como e seu nome? (my name is bomboa...what's your name?)

desculpa...sou americano e meu portugues e horrivel. (excuse me..i'm american and my portuguese is horrible)

mas...meus amigos e eu vao para um barzinho hoje a noite... (but my friends and i are going out to a bar tonight)

e queria convidar voce para sair comigo. (and i'd like to invite you to go out with me)

pode me dar seu telefone? ou se voce quiser, me manda um email. (can you give me your phone number? or if you'd like, send me an email)

[hand her your business card]


anyhow, obviously you can vary the script, but this lets you get numbers from girls who like you...or leaves your card for the girls to contact you. believe me, there are enough lonely girls in brazil that they'll call on a lonely night sooner or later.

anyhow, i got a few i'm playing with right now....as for whether they are hotter than program girls....most aren't...but they are sweeter and more innocent...and they're eminently fuckable. god i wish i were back in brazil right now.

good hunting.

It's easy to hook up in Brazil.

Anyway. it's much easier to hook up in Brazil than in say Chicago... The previously discussed topic of 'ficar' is real, and more often than not if you are talking to a chick in the club and you're not making out with her, she is probably wondering what your problem is...

(This is not really an exaggeration, when I first arrived (Nuth), the English speaking friend pulled me aside after I was dancing with her friend and asked why I didn't kiss her)

Now, how to find these hot and horny co-eds... I agree with Bomboa that you gotta get out there and actually talk to a couple. The girls may be easy, but they are rarely going to approach you. Most girls (having adapted to the aggressive, elbow-grabbing tricks of local brazilians) have developed a way to let you know if they are not interested. They'll probably just ignore you, or be real short with any questions you ask, no eye contact, etc. It should be clear and they usually let you down pretty easy (they don't laugh you out of the club )

Anyway, if you finally manage to start a conversation and she is asking you a lot of questions, seems interested, etc... she is. This is where you need to sack up and start making some moves. I'll leave that part up to you. Just don't leave her hanging with a night of conversation and no 'beijo na boca'.

Also, if you are with friends, try to travel together. If one of you starts making out with one of the girls, the rest of the girls are pretty much obligated to pair up with your friends.

This type of thing is usually one-night-stand-y, maybe some phone number exchange, etc. I like to call it the extended Brazilian greeting. The American equivalent of grinding at a frat party. Unfortunately, making out with a girl at a club does not mean you are taking her home. In fact, I would be suspicious of any girl who does go right home with you and fucks...

If you do hit it off, it shouldn't take more than one date before she 'reluctantly' comes back to your place. Of course, once the bedroom door shuts, the first question is usually whether you have condoms. ha ha ha.

One caveat (as has been mentioned dozens of times on this board) is that these women do not take sex that lightly. They love it and are typically more open and have more fun with it, but they take seriously who they choose to copulate with. This means a lot of broken hearts when you tell them it was just a one-time thing.

IMHO, if you just want sex, just get a hooker.

Hombre: Mello89 and Kitesurfer messages prior to this message moved to Racism in Brazil

Mello89,

I'm not going to get involved on the issue of racism in the US.

I think what some of the comments are saying is that some Brazilians are conscious of race and being black may work against you, particularly with some of the upper class girls. Hell for some girls being a gringo of any colour staying in Copa is a no-no.

Example : A friend of mine who is a lawyer in Rio is married to a typical patricinha i.e. rich, spoilt and to be honest a nightmare. He is Irish and white. One night when we were out for beers I asked how a concert she’d been to was. Her response was that it was good and "cheio da gente bonita". And no she didn't mean pretty people. My friend turned to me and said what she's trying to say is that there were no black people there. Another friend is going out with a woman from a wealthy family. She is pretty cool, and not a patricinha type at all but is undoubtedly racist. Some of the remarks e.g. would if made in public in the US or UK, get her in serious trouble.

I'm afraid there is NO way either of these would date a black guy no matter how much "game" he had. I'm not condoning this but just pointing out it will be a factor at times in Brazil.

Going OT you see perceptions of race in Help. Some of the girls like hanging with African-Americans, others refuse to leave with them. Most of us have our prejudices so why wouldn't a society where a large proportion of people are uneducated not be susceptible to the same problem?

Similar points were made above and whilst the truth may be unpalatable some of the posters were simply calling it as they see it.

Hombre: This message has been copied here with the original and many more messages moved to Racism in Brazil

Originally posted by Badseed on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 06:28 am

Guys:

Thanks for the comments, once AGAIN I've digressed an entire topic of conversation.. oh well.

My original post about race got kind of munged, I tried to edit it and wound up double-posting, which is why it's a bit unclear. I was trying to show some of the "undercurrents" of racism in Brazil and some of the history. Brazilians pride themselves in not being racist, and at first glance it really does look like a truly integrated society - as RioRules pointed ouot, everybody sits together, talks together, works, loves with no thought of race. My point was just that racism is thare, it's just usually way more subtle than the USA, and often no-one is aware of it but then they act out in a way that is way more racist than most anything in the US.

RioRules: yes, absolutely, I've had brazilian friends that were suprised to find out here in teh US that they were "Black", or memorably one friend that visited here and then called me from home and said "I never realized that my neighbors are black!". From the opposite perspective, a "brother" buddy of mine came down to Rio to hang out with me last year - first he said "Everybody is the same color here, everybody is brown!". I asked him, what the hell aren't you seeing? Rio's got all shades of the rainbow... Two days later he said, "damn you're right, I'm so confused, what am I?" Which I thought was really interesting... my take on it was that when you grow up in a "Black/White" world, then Brown is a mind-blower. First he didn't see it, then he's overwhelmed. Dunno... any of the other "brothas" on this board have similar experiences? BTW, my answer to my buddy was "You are YOU, let's go grab some ass" or something like that...

I'm not trying to be a downer about race in Brazil, things truly are more relaxed than the USA or most any other country. But people are STILL judging skin color - white is "good", black is "bad" and even though everyone gets along fine, everyone also wishes they were whiter (except white folks who all want to get tan). Statistics lie, of course, but any demopgraphics will show you that most poor people are black, most university-educated are white, most politicians aren't black, more blacks are jailed, more blacks are victims of crime, etc. (And of course, it all depends on how you define "black" in Brazil - still the darker you are, the tougher your life is). I remember a line from a TV show that really sums this up, a black kid from the Vidigal favela talking to a white kid from Leblon: "People look at you and you could be from the favela or from the rich neighborhood, people look at me and they KNOW where I'm from". Exactly.

Whcih brings me to language. First of all, yes "ficar" in the relationship sense has come to mean quick sex even though it started as goign steady. "Caso" does NOT mean one night stand, it means "having an affair." As far as racist attitudes, yes "Moco" means "young man" as opposed to boy (garoto, guri, menino, moleque, piralho, mocinho, pia, yayo.... lots of words for boy). But, when you hear a young girl calling a 65-year old waiter "moco", you know it's something more than that. People use it naturally, and pay no mind to being called "moco", but it always struck me as so odd that you'd call someone "moco" even with a big age differnce, then I realized what it was... (OK, so I've got Yankee liberal sensibilities, so shoot me - BTW, since I realized where "moco" came from, I call people "chefe" or "amigo"). AS further proof that this is held over from slavery, when a Brazilian wants to insult you in "poltie society" you'll be called "moco" - as in you crash a high society party and the hostess will call security and say "please escort this MOCO to the door", that sort of thing. I've had it happen to me, at the bank, yelling at the stupid tellers, finally get the manager (who's visibly younger than me) and all of a sudden I go from "senhor" to "moco" as the manager tells me why they aren't going to cash my check. Anyway, beleive me, "moco" is an insult, even if most people don't realize it most of the time.

Equally interesting with language, "Nego" and "Nega" translate as our infamous "N word". But tehy are terms of endearment in Brazil! Hell, my frineds call me "meu Nego" eventhough I'm white. And in general no-one gets upset with racial terms in convesation... perfectly normal, OK to yell "Hey Alemao!" (that's me! german guy!) or "Hey Negao" (big N-), "Hi moreninha", "Hey Japa", "Is the Jambo coming today?", etc. All arabs are "Turcos", we're all "Gringos", spanish are "Galegos", portuguese are "Portugas", and race is treated pretty much the same as nationalies. And I read the same Scientific American article - race IS a cultural construct, the same as nationality, so the Brazilian attitude is "scientifically correct" (even if racism does still rear it's ugly head sometimes). BTW, the word "Crioullo" (Creole) will get you killed in Brazil (or at least sued for libel... happened to a big-mouthed movie star in 2001), it has the same prejorative meaning as "N-" in the US!

Getting back to dating Non-pros (FINALLY).. remember I wrote up above that class differences (money!) are usually way more important than race. Which means that 1) you'll have way more luck tapping a lower-class girl (Zona Norte) than a high-class (Zona Sul) girl. So your best "targets" are shopgirls, centro girls, Zona Norte nightclubs (I'm blanking on the name of the big one that Sandman likes... be careful, most ZN nightspots will get you killed). 2) Treat tehm like a queen - take them out to the fancy restaurant, go shopping for some nice clothes in a place they otherwise could not afford to go to, and generally make them feel like they "belong" in the upper-class. Stay the hell out of Copacabana! Dont' take your girl anywhere near there (ie. no Leme, no Arpoador). Go to "upscale" joints in Ipanema, Leblon, Barra, Laranjeiras, Lagoa, etc. Make them feel like "Pretty Woman", trust me, it works!

OK, rambling done for the day....

BS

Hombre: This message has been copied here with the original moved to Racism in Brazil

Originally posted by Badseed on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 06:44 am

Thanks for the compliments, I'm pretty amazed that this digression has generated so much discussion... anyway Bwana is right, race relations are pretty strange in Brazil - overall much better than the USA, but not the "paradise" that first meets the eye or, for that matter, that the upper class of Brazil wants you to believe.

Yet another crazy example - for the VERY FIRST TIME, now, this month of March 2004, O Globo, Brazil's main TV network, is running a show with a black (mullata anyway) female lead character - Thais Araujo. USA has had black leads in network TV shows for how long?? At least 30 years. Brazil, now. Go figure. (Of course, we still think it's a big deal that Whasshername won an Oscar for best actress last year - Hallie Berry). Up untill now, all the leads in Globo's shows have been lily white, this in a country where 90% of the audience is some shade of brown... so this isn't even a case of an under-represented minority, the WHITES are the minority!

To add insult to injury, the name of the show (a novela, of coursse) is "Da Cor do Pecado" - The Color of Sin - and the "opening screen" for the show is a shot of Thais's chest, from neckline to just above nipples. "The Color of Sin" was the old off-handed reference to the fact that the portuguese masters got more turned on by fucking the slave girls than their wives (no suprise there - most portuguese girls are hairy and fat!). Supposedly, the masters would take a shirt from their "mistresses" to bed when they were going to fuck their wives so they could be turned on by the smell! So these are some of the fucked-up roots of the social-sexual-racial tensions that still exist. In this context, it's no suprise that Thais (whos a very cute little spinner, BTW), became famous becuase she starred in a relatively sexually explicit novela on a minor network when she was only 17 (big scandal when her true age came out). Not that white actresses don't also become famous only because of sex, but it's still a shame. BTW, Xuxa, Brazil's most famous blond (pre-Giselle) became famous only after she started fucking Pele, so go figure... (Brazilian joke: Xuxa made her fortune only after her life "went black" - a pun with went to hell).

Anyway, taking this conversation back to Non-pro pickups, these racial attitudes are important to understand, but class distinctions are even moreso. People are very overtly "classist" and you, as a gringo, trying to date a Brasileira are going to run a "class-im" minefield. Some of us can "pass" for Brazilian as long as you keep your Anglo-speaking mouth shut, but most of us can be spotted as a gringo from a mile away. (Even me.. ethnically I'm just a beer-guzzling Kraut, cariocas and other "northerners" always do a double-take when I start speaking portuguese - not may ethnic Germans north of Santa Catarina!). So when these girls are with us, they are on a "classist" tightrope, something like a black dating a white in Mississipi. On the one hand, by being with us gringos, they are almost automatically branded as whores or golddiggers - ESPECIALLY in Copacabana. On the other, there is some status from the fact that she could attract a gringo, and obviously she is hoping for money/gifts etc (even if she is "in love" with you, even the most honorable intentions, etc, the hope for a "better life" is always there). A lower-class girl wil be most attracted to your "money" (ie. an easier target) but will also be most likely to be branded as a whore (then again, she may not care). A higher class girl will not be so entranced by $$, but also will not suffer as much prejudice ("look, she owns a car and she's pretty white, she must have me the gringo at the university" (or some other rationalization)). But the "patricinha" will also care a lot more about her reputation. So it's a really crazy balancing act, depends on how you look (physically), dress, how she looks (color, age, dress), where you go, etc. I don't mean that everyone is stressing out about class all the time (Brazilians are laid-back), or that you should do a sociological analysis every time you meet a girl... just be aware of the class tensions.

Me? I'm a chameleon, I've gone to black-tie affairs with girls in gowns, I've romanced fishermen's daughters while frying fish in a hut. In general that works - go with the flow, do your best to blend in and be a part of the people you are with, even if you can't speak portuguse, your willignness to accept whoever you are with works wonders (and gets those panties off!).

;-)

BS

Hombre: Many of the messages originally here were moved to Racism in Brazil

The topic of this thread is Non-Pro Pickups

Hombre:

Thanks for straightening this out. And look guys, despite all teh jawing we've done these past few days, you can't pick up a girl without getting into their heads a little bit (that's half the fun!). WHich means that discussing, and understanding culture, history, and "native" attitudes is not innappropriate.

Nad my best advice for non-pro pickups remains the same: shop-girls. Walk into a nice store, browse, flirt, charm, buy something or other, and invite to dinner, dance, "sorvete" whatever. Nothing is guaranteed but it's your best percentage (playing garotas, just like fishing or target shooting, is all about percentages).

Enjoy!

BS

Here's a very good example of how an interesting topic (like race) could be "dumbdowned" to death.