I still think traveling by plane is one of the safest things these days, and nothing will deter me from future air travels. I’m thinking that I can share a recent experience to kind of give you an idea what it felt like and what really happens in an emergency.

If you monger in other countries, plane travel is inevitable. I've been traveling extensively for the past 15 years, and I've personally experienced some crazed out and serious situations --- severe turbulence (especially near Guam or near Japan), air-conditioning malfunctions, smoke emanating from the engines, flyovers during landings, taking off during a typhoons, flying through a monsoon, and "we need to return to the airport" type of drills. Talking with other buddies in the past week, I realized some guys had similar experiences with airline travels and one buddy even told me that he had to ditch a private plane into the ocean and get rescued by the Coast Guard.

It was on the flight from CTG-BARANQUILLA-PANAMA. As we were accelerating for take off from CTG to Baranquilla, I heard this loud "bang" sound right below the front of the plane. Experience told me to watch for the reaction of the stewardesses, they didn’t seem too concerned. I didn't think more of it until we landed in Baranquilla, Colombia 20 minutes later (scheduled). As soon as we landed, maintenance crews went to the front of the plane, near the tires where the sound was heard, and started doing all sorts of checks and maintenance. The scheduled stop was for 20 minutes, but they kept us in the hot and humid plane for about an hour and a half while doing all this. All along, the crew said this was just a "routine check". Pretty soon, the captain went outside and inspected whatever it was that made the noise and came back up, unsmiling and looking a bit concerned. He spoke on the radio to somebody, and a few more maintenance trucks came to inspect. Finally, they told us all to get seated, we assumed everything was in order. We were leaving Baranquillla for Panama after about an hour and a half.

Once again, as we were accelerating for takeoff, you heard an even louding "Bang" in the same general area, but this time, coupled with a searing, burning of rubber type of smell that inundated the front of the cabin. The plane veered a little toward the left, and it appeared the plane wasn’t picking up altitude as quickly as it should; a few moments later, the Captain managed to correct the plane’s ascent, and the plane appeared to ascend better. The plane then circled around back toward the airport (I’ve been on this route so knew this was unusual) and after making one loop, the plane was headed towards Panama. The smell didn't go away at first, so the passengers became more concerned, the two or three Americans near me were clearly concerned about the smell and the bang, and let the crew know about it. Again, as I looked at the stewardesses, they mouthed some rehearsed, reassuring words but clearly had a look of concern on their face.

During the one hour flight to Panama, the captain announced, in Spanish only, that everything was ok. Midway through the flight, the terrible burning smell dissipated and things appeared to be ok. However, as we approached Panama City, the captain instructed the stewardesses, in Spanish only, to "secure" everything for landing. I spoke barely enough Spanish to understand "secure" something. A few minutes later, the Captain informs us that as a "precaution" we would be flying over the Panama airport one time with the landing gear down. This was obviously not a good sign. I wasn't too concerned at this point until we made our first approach to the airport, as I looked towards the airport, I saw at least 7 or eight firetrucks (which are green) and other assorted vehicles, two planes were off to the side, apparently waiting to take off. The sight of all these emergency vehicles was the first clue to me, and the other passengers, that something was terribly wrong. I distinctly heard gasps and sighs as the firetrucks became visible.

After the first flyover, as we were circling back to the airport for what we thought would be a landing, the Captain announced that we need to do another "precautionary" fly over. Apparently, what needed to be inspected or confirmed could not be inspected or confirmed.

So on to the second flyover, same result, inconclusive. On we went for the third flyover, but this time, it looked like even more emergency vehicles were visible on the ground. Finally, after what seemed like hours, after the fourth flyover, the Captain says to us, we're going in for a landing (again in Spanish), no mention was made as to whether the landing gear/or tires came out ok. We kept asking, but no conformation. Just a final precaution to the attendants to ensure that everyone was buckled in tightly. I glanced over to the attendants, who were literally running up and down the aisles, and clearly saw the look of concern on their faces. At the some point, while we were over the ocean, the plane began to tremble, and it appeared we were dumping fuel over the ocean. Damn, this was serious, I began plotting my exit strategy, babies were crying and some passengers in the back were mumbling to each other.... but what thoughts go through your mind when you come to the realization of your predicament, interestingly, disjointed and funny thoughts.

...I was thankful that if I had to go, it was after a very wonderful monger trip, and not before the trip :-)

...I actually couldn’t believe that this was all happening. I kept thinking if people get killed, it wouldn’t be me.

...I thought about a joke I once heard about the last thing on a butterfly's mind as it smashes into your windshield is it's asshole..

As we approached the airport, the panic and concern seem to melt away, and I accepted the fact that whatever happens, happens. The plane made a steeper than normal descent, it wobbled a bit, and landed..a hard touchdown and some screeching noise…and the first thing I remember is applause…that’s when I realized we made it. People kept clapping and whistling as we taxied towards the boarding gate. I saw dozens of firefighters stationed with their equipment at the ready.

As we were getting ready to off-load the plane, we started talking amongnst each other, the consensus (including a guy with a private pilot license) was that we damaged a tire when we initially took off from CTG, they tried to fix it in Baranquilla and obviously did a poor job of it. The private pilot was surmising that when we took off from Baranquilla either the damaged tire or another tire blew (possibly due to the additional stress caused by the sloppily fixed tire). This actually made sense, the initial return to Baranquilla after the second blow-out was possibly to return for a landing, but the private pilot guy said that would have been stupid because if you needed to make an emergency landing, Panama was much better equipped and prepared than Baranquilla to handle it.

Later, one of my pilot buddies on commericial airline, was telling me that a blown tire(s) is a serious matter and if the ground crew could have seen that it was ok, they would have told us on one of the flyovers. To this day, no one told me exactly what happened and how serious it really was.

Afterwards, in typical American fashion, the three Americans and me (seated up front) decided to jointly write a complaint letter. I've been in situations before, where if they find even the slightest mechanical problems before a flight an airline would quickly change planes or disembark the passengers. This is what should’ve been done and which wasn’t.

The flight from Panama back to LA was uneventful, but I was on pins and needles as we accelerated for takeoff and throughout the 7 hour flight. Hopefully, this was just a temporary thing, I really hope I didn’t develop a phobia over flying because of this. Despite this experience, Copa is a good airline (flew dozens of times with them) and I have tickets to fly them again, they even gave me free tickets to make sure I fly them again. We’ll see.

Wow, thank you for sharing that with us. Man... and I'll bet the Captain was pissed at the ground-crew who I assume gave an all-clear maintance check.
Dumb question.... I thought commercial jets had run-flatt or solid tires that did not deflate? Anyway - you are a trooper to have that attitude- can you imagine if the plane was filled with soccer moms from California- sheeei - there would be PANIC and lawsuits!

Hey thanks MB, actually, no one knows for sure what happened to this day, which is frustrating. But I was curious about blown tires on commercial aircraft and discovered to my surprise that it is not "uncommon", check out one recent story out of SFO where the talk about this stuff happening weekly

http://www.sfexaminer.com/articles/2005/03/10/news/20050310_pe04_landing.txt

You're right that if this happened in the US, all hell would break loose. This also gets me thinking, was the airline more willing to take a risk because they assumed that most, if not all, of the passengers were Colombian? Not many Americans on that route usually. Don't know for sure, but if it would've been a plane full of litigious Americans, I'm sure Copa may have thought longer about not bringing out a new plane.

The best part of this is that Copa has assured us that they are "investigating" the incident and forwarding our complaint to their management. That's all we wanted, just a review of their policy for changing planes. The free tx was just a bonus really.

Well, I hate to add another thing to worry about while flying, but MB got me looking more into this subject of tire blowouts. I came across a website arguing that tireblowouts have caused crashes after takeoff, because they resulted in in fires in the tire well or shot off shrapnel to vulnerable parts of the plane.

http://www.aircrash.org/burnelli/tire_intro.htm

Geesh, dodged a bullet.

(Message edited by merlin on May 15, 2005)

Merl,

What a story!

Who did you write to at COPA? I wanted to write them a complaint about the last trip.

I was the last one to board in Panama returning to Orlando, so COPA's private security decided to screen me.

They were nice enough and went through everything. The guy took out my Gilette Mach 3 shaver and spare razor catridges and said this was unsafe and they were confiscating it.

I told him in a calm voice that he was mistaken and I needed to speak with his supervisor.

The gate agent said I had to board now, but I just sat down and said get me the supervisor or leave without me - I wasn't leaving without the razors.

They couldn't find a supervisor and the pilot (or co-pilot) came out and pleaded with me BY NAME to get on board.

I told him that the security guy was out of line, I wanted my razors and I would be happy to miss the flight (knowing there was a flight to NY in 3 hours anyway - never tip your hand).

The pilot said something in Spanish to the security guy and he told me that they would "check" the razors and put them in the cockpit and give them to me upon landing.

I accepted their offer. Upon landing at Orlando, the pilot had to give the razor to a COPA agent who then had to accompany me to customs "to clear" the razors. I still never understood that.

I have the names of the security guy in Panama and the agent in Orlando as well as the razors still sealed in a security package and initialed by the pilot.

I wanted to photograph that and send a letter off to COPA and see what they say. Never could find a physical address and name on their website.

Not in the same league as your complaint, but their security needs to understand what is legal and what isn't.

WS

WS: I was impressed with Copa's response and I'm sure they'll straighten things out with your concern. You and I both have had great service with these guys, but I think they can always improve. No matter is too small IMO, it may be an indication they need to set more uniform and/or stricter policies about all facets of their business. I contacted COPA as follows:

Customer Care Representative
Tel: (507) 207-5945
Panamá, República de Panamá

email: customerservicecc@copaair.com

Good Luck. Merl

No offense but why would you give a rats ass about a razor and some razor blades.

In a 3rd world country (especially when I'm leaving) they can have just about everything especially if I'd like to return to that country.

If I were to put up a fight it definitely would be for a razor. Not to mention that with a tooth brush and a pack of matches I could fashion that razor into the nastiest little box cutter in about 30 seconds in the lavatory.

I kind of like the fact they are looking out for other passengers.

Merlin, I'm guessing that this is what happened: one of the front tires had a blowout on takeoff from CTG. However, the airport at Baranquilla didn't have a spare, so they attempted a repair job on the damaged tire. It blew again on the second takeoff, leaving just one tire for the front of the aircraft to land on in Panama.

Ultimately, the captain is at fault here. He should have never taken off with a "repaired" tire. Proper procedure would have been to keep the plane on the ground and fly in a replacement tire. He was probably under pressure from the airline ops center to continue the trip. But he should have kept that plane on the ground. That was far too dangerous. Do you know what kind of plane it was?

Mura, your explanation makes a whole lot of sense to me, I distinctly remember the Captain talking on his radio to someone right before we took off again. And Baranquilla is a small airport with minimal equipment and facilities. I guess we were all chumps for making the Captain feel like a hero.

BTW: the plane was a Boeing 737-700.

I'm assuming that since this occurred outside the U.S., the federal regulatory agency (whatever it is) would not get involved, right?

and I accepted the fact that whatever happens, happens

I can't compare the seriousness of the situation, but the most scared I've ever been in an airplane was when on my second trip to Asia we hit some HORRIBLE turbulence, and when the plane simply DROPPED straight down like something straight out of a rollercoaster ride, I was just SURE that plane was going to fall 35K feet out of the sky directly into the Pacific. The ONLY thing that I could focus on at that point was the exact phrase you wrote above -- if it's your time to go, there ain't much you can do about it.

Woulda REALLY sucked, though, as I was on my way TO Asia, not going back home! I woulda missed some damned good times if that frickn' plane had crashed. On the way HOME I'd just have missed a lot of WORK!

Merlin, terrific narrative of a scary situation. I'm glad the airline took care of you with a free ticket.

Merlin

Even though I already have heard your story up close and personnal it is still chilling to read it . It had to be especially worrisome to be on third world airlines with Buddha knows who at the controls.


My worst ever air travel experience happened in Don Marco's backyard. I was leaving Boston from Logan International on UA. I was on a DC10 and right after takeoff during steep ascent there was an extremely loud bang and the plane shook violently. The captain came on the PA and said there was a fire in the right engine and they had to shut it down. The DC10 has 3 engines. The pilot said we could fly just fine on the remaining engines but we were going back to Boston. As you did ,we circled the ocean for a while and dumped most of the fuel. Everyone was on pins and needles waiting for something else to happen . We eventually made an uneventful emergency landing at Logan with it seemed every fire truck in Boston lining the runway ,their lights flashing. An eeirie sight for sure.

All this was fairly close after the UA DC10 dropped an engine on takeoff in Chicago and everyone had seen the video on the news of the plane spiraling into the ground killing all on board. It definitely heightened the tension on board.

I got no free ticket . Just re routed to LA via Dallas and got back about 8 hours later than scheduled. Oh yeah - I got a voucher for $20 redeemable for delicious airport cuisine !!

Thanks UA !

Yep, plane tires can blow. Here's a few pics from a blown tire incident at London's Heathrow airport. The plane was an Air Canada A340, a pretty new plane so this stuff can happen even with new equipment and decent airlines like Copa & AC. . .

I found these pics at jetphotos.net and it said this in the captions:

"On take-off the captain reported hearing a bang as if a tyre burst. Traffic stacked up while 27R was checked for debris. 90 minutes later she came back to LHR and the damage is there to see on the front left tyre (shredded) of the right main gear. She landed without any problems on 27L."

By the way, these planes are built to sustain 1 or 2 blown tires, or so the manufacturers say. . . :-)

Don't write to a generic address for airline communication. Do what you would with any business issue. Go to the web site and find the list of executives (or corporate HQ phone number and make a call), get the name of the VP-Mktg, call his secretary and obtain his fax number (like for a normal business corresponence) and fax your letter directly to him. This should give you a much higher leve of response than writing to some kid/clerk who answers 'to whom it may concern' type correspondence.

Snooky,

Shaving razors are allowed on board. Period. They are not on the TSA's banned list. In fact on their list it clearly states that shaving razors ARE allowed on board.

Security cannot make up arbitrary rules or decide to change the rules on their own.

In the face of authority some people shudder and proceed like lambs to the slaughter.

When I see something obviously wrong, I question it. Personal liberty is worth the inconvenience.

Flhobbyer - I agree with you, trouble is I can't find a name on the Copa website. SOme companies do that on purpose. I guess I'll use the generic address and see what happens.

WS

Don't mean to start a flame war but it's Copa's plane, they can run their gig anyway they like it, we're just renting a space to sit for a few hours. :-) Plus this was outside U.S. so who knows, maybe they're a little paranoid being right next to locolombia, stricter security rules than TSA, blah, blah

As for inconvenience, think of the delay you caused for everyone else on the plane, lol. . . ;-)

TSA has no authority in Colombia ;)

Torpedo, I appreciate the photos and realize this type of stuff happens. It's certainly not my motivation to draw pity or sympathy over what seemingly appears to be a common occurrence, my intent was simply to inform others about what I perceive are some troubling policies/decisions of some airlines (i.e. flying a plane with obvious problems) in a third world mongering destination. I firmly believe they should not have permitted the plane to takeoff again.

Consider that the A-340 you posted blew out a tire in the rear, where there are numerous tires and redundancies built in. The 737 I flew in blew out the front tire(s), one of only 2 tires, and there clearly was a fire of some sort resulting in the burning smell.

Porker/KM: All these episodes and experiences are certainly par for the course. You guys must have been less willing to accept your fate since Porker was on his way to monger, and KM was on a non-mongering trip :-)

FL: thanks for the advice, one of their V.P/Supervisors actually called me last week after the email and wanted more details. I understand they called the other co-complainaners (all of them Elite Status Americans). I think they're taking it seriously and I got the impression that others on that flight have not complained about this.

Torpedo,

Well then riddle me this: if COPA doesn't want people bringing shaving razors on-board, how come they offer them to their first-class customers on long-hauls?

Believe me, this was a case of a badly-trained security guard. I'll be happy to share COPA's thoughts with you once I get them.

Flhobbyer,

This didn't happen in Colombia ;)

The reason I bring up the TSA is because the security guy himself invoked the TSA rules by telling me there were new rules in effect including a lighter ban.

I told him the lighter ban didn't go into effect until April 16 and it was now April 12. Not to mention that the lighter ban has nothing to do with shaving razors.

This guy clearly didn't know what he was talking about

(Message edited by wallstreet on May 16, 2005)

No problem, wallstreet. Was only busting your chops a bit. As long as it's not my flight being delayed, it's fine with me. ;-)

To Merlin, I didn't mean to belittle your experience. No matter how "common" this stuff is, I know I would be shitting bricks if it happened to me.
You're probably right about grounding the plane but you know how it is, they must figure a plane on the ground is $$ down the drain. Would be nice if they remembered that traumatized passengers are not good for repeat business. . . :-)

FWIW, I don't usually spend time looking at airplane pics when I'm online, heh, heh. It just so happened that I saw the pic of the blown tire while searching for pics/videos of the first flight of that new Airbus "super-jumbo" plane. Reading Merlin's story reminded me of that pic so I went back to search for it. No more pics not relevant to the purpose of this board from me. . . :-)

Merlin -

Loved your story. I don't mean to take anything away from it, because you perfectly described the exact same feeling of helplessness I felt on a troubled flight out of Phoenix last summer. I hope you do not mind that I piggyback here.

I was flying on America West. It was right after takeoff. Sounded like a baggage door suddenly opened...very unusual noise for climb-out I thought. Then the plane stopped climbing and leveled out...again indicating that something was wrong. I kept waiting for the pilot to make an announcement...but nothing for 20-minutes. We flew over Phoenix at maybe 5,000 feet caught in the turbulent summer heat...this added a lot of bumping and yawing around...making me fear that the plane was suffering surface control problems. I had thoughts of the DC-10 crashing in Sioux City, IA where an uncontained failure of the center engine (number 2) took-out the plane's hydraulics forcing the crew to steer the airplane using differential engine thrust from the working engines on the wings...they miraculously made the airfield but they hit wing low and the aircraft tumbled into a cornfield...the crash was captured on video...I'm sure you all saw it...in the late 80s maybe? Scary thought to have when you are the one on-board a troubled flight. I literally thought...this cannot be happening to me...because it never has happened before and I'm a major frequent flier type of guy since childhood!

A B-737 Captain in uniform was sitting next to me as he was dead-heading back home...he too thought a baggage door opened. We tried to nervously humor ourselves that we were dropping 80 pound bags all over Phoenix...maybe an occasional pet. Then the pilot finally made an announcement that there was a problem with the nose gear and we had to return to the airport.

Apparently the nose gear failed to raise during takeoff after the main gear was raised, so the crew decided to drop the mains again without telling us in the back. This caused the loud sound of rushing air...which simply does not normally happen during climb-out as most of you know.

Apparently the crew was too busy focusing on flying the airplane and addressing the problem (I suppose a very good thing) that they simply forgot to tell all of us in the back what the problem was...okay...pins and needles for us.

As we returned to the airport I too counted the seats to the nearest emergency exit and even the next closest alternate. (I remembered someone telling me once that if you survive an airplane accident, the cabin would likely fill with black smoke and you would have to feel/physically count seats on your way to the exit...over the top of seats if necessary...I still think very good advice...everyone remember this one...just in case).

The landing was uneventful, but they had all of the emergency equipment out for us. When we safely landed everyone shouted, cheered, and clapped...some even cried. Once I knew we were safely on the ground I got this overwhelming rush that it was great to be alive...like you would feel after the best ever mongering trip...all 10s and all in the honey pot.

Wallstreet -

Mach III? Dude...when the blades only slightly dull you have 3 whisker pullers. When you have a single or double blade that begins to dull, there is a smaller edge front than the Mach III, making it better able to cut much longer...therefore ultimately smoother shaves for longer with fewer blade changes. IMHO...Mach III is an over-priced marketing gimmick to force consumers to replace their blades more frequently...what next? Six over-priced blades? I wouldn't use a Mach III if I was the guy who invented it...and you delayed a flight for that torture device...what balls you have?

Alec

Merlin, you are right, the FAA would not get involved. However, the FAA does have the authority to ban certain airlines from flying to/from the US in the event that they have questionable maintenance practices. This has happened in the past.

Standard operating procedure for any major airline is to keep spare tires at an airport for the type of planes that serve that airport. So Copa should have had a spare B-737 front tire at Baranquilla, or they should have ensured that the maintenance company the contract to at that airport had them available.

This is standard because tires need to be changed on planes, just like on cars. The goal is to change them BEFORE they blow out on a take-off/landing. Pilots doing inspections will look at their tires; if one looks suspect, they request a change.

Alec, thanks for sharing the story, makes me think about the saying that "what doesn't kill us only makes us stronger". Interestingly, when we were doing all those flyovers, the people around me were trying to start a conversation with me about mundane things and I recall engaging in the conversation, but not really remembering what we talked about.

I'll have to remember your comment about counting the seats to the exit in case of an emergency. Then again, if I put things in perspective, there are thousands of flights each day with no emergencies and I must have flown in excess of 800K miles during the last 15 years for this first bonafide emergency landing with fuel dumping and all. Pretty good odds. I'm not too terriby concerned about flying, keep your eyes on the prize.

Mura, thanks for the addn'l info. One thing I did notice is that Copa didn't really have a presence in Baranquilla, i.e. they used Avianca maintenance, baggage handlers, etc. so I'm assuming they probably didn't have all that was necessary there. Also, Avianca usually flies planes other than a 737 from what remember, mostly airbuses. Sounds like you know quite about airlines and procedure.

Another issue may simply be cost.

If they contract with another carrier to provide services at that airport they may get charged a lot more for the tire than what it would cost if they replace it themselves.

Not something we want to think about, but VERY common in many countries and with many carriers.

ALWAYS locate the emergency exits as soon as you walk on a plane. Memorize your location in relation to exits both in front of and behind you. Believe me, if you need them you MUST KNOW where they are.

If I had been the Captain on that plane where security didn't want to allow your razors on board, and someone created that big a fuss, I would have had them hauled off and put in a cell until they could be checked out. (Yes, I would be an a**hole about it.)

I'd also probably put them on the "no fly list", which means until they could convince a security review board that they were OK, they would not be allowed on most major carriers - epecially the one they had tickets for!

In reality you were lucky - you could easily end up stuck there for an extended period of time.

BTW, TSA has NO jurisdiction there - and the Captain has absolute jurisdiction over who and what gets on his plane.

I know they would eventually clear it up and be allowed on - to minor a problem to be banned from flying - but it would have taken a couple of weeks at least.



(Message edited by Curious on May 16, 2005)

A guy I worked with was in a crash about 10 years ago in Mainland China. They took off from Beijing and when landing somewhere in southern China, they had a real rough landing and a lot of bouncing. It was a situation similar to yours - small airport, just a quick stop to drop off a few people and pick up a few more, then on to Kuala Lumpor or someplace like that. They ended up on the ground for a couple of hours, the pilots bitching at maintenence, the ground guys bitching back, etc. They finally took off and when they landed in Malaysia or whereever, guess what? The nose landing gear collapsed as they deccelerated and they hydroplaned in - luckily the runway was wet I guess, they slid instead of really jamming in. My buddy ended up with a broken leg, lots of injuries but no deaths. Apparently a couple of passengers tried to rush the cockpit doors, probably to kill the idiot pilots who took off - apparently the ground guys were telling the pilot not to leave, but in early-90's China, the man in the big uniform calls the shots. Fucking idiots, one and all.

As someone who flies almost every week, and has done so for 12 years, the worst I've ever had is an engine flameout and about 4 cases of compressor stall, where on takeoff an engine gets fucked up and it sounds like a washing machine thats off-kilter.

One time in CTG upon leaving for an int'l flight (which airline, I don't remember), they confiscated my twin blade disposable razor too!

Domestic, no problem carrying my razor, as of Sat. May 14th, on my way to MDE.

"If I had been the Captain on that plane where security didn't want to allow your razors on board, and someone created that big a fuss, I would have had them hauled off and put in a cell until they could be checked out. (Yes, I would be an a**hole about it.)"

Reality check: First, Wallstreet wasn't on the plane yet to begin with. And second, an airline captain, including a**hole ones, don't have the authority to throw someone into a cell.

"I'd also probably put them on the "no fly list", which means until they could convince a security review board that they were OK, they would not be allowed on most major carriers - epecially the one they had tickets for!"

Reality check: Well you could do this if you were god, but in the real world, again, airline captains have no authority to do this. Not to mention that this all took place in another country that doesn't maintain a US "no fly list."

"In reality you were lucky - you could easily end up stuck there for an extended period of time.... I know they would eventually clear it up and be allowed on - to minor a problem to be banned from flying - but it would have taken a couple of weeks at least."

Reality check: Say what? And just who exactly was going to ban him? On what grounds?

Alecjammer: Go fuck yourself

Curious: Go fuck yourself

Murasaki: Thank you


WS

FYI-- I switched to a mach3 a while ago and love it. the razor kicks ass!

Status and update for those curious, as I said, COPA seems to be taking this very seriously.

"Dear Mr. XXXX:

To update you, we have forwarded your concerns to an executive investigative committee, Please let us investigate this situation thorougly and as soon as possible we will be contacting you.

Truly yours,

Nadine I. XXXXX
Supervisor, Customer Care
Copa Airlines
E-mail: xxxx@copaair.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: merlin69@att.net [mailto:merlin69@att.net]
Posted At: Sábado, 14 de Mayo de 2005 04:50 p.m.
Posted To: Customer Service Elite Email
Conversation: Atencion al Cliente realizado por Copaair.com
Subject: Atencion al Cliente realizado por Copaair.com
Importance: High

Wallstreet -

You reacted like I insulted your manhood...geez, it is only a 3-bladed razor...dude...get over it. It was not like I was suggesting that you were over-compensating for any shortcomings. I merely commented that 3-bladed razors suck for us men who have thick beards....I even complimented you about your ability to delay a flight for a razor...I think I said, "What balls?"

You said, "When I see something obviously wrong, I question it. Personal liberty is worth the inconvenience."

You are a real Patriot in my book Wallstreet...thank you for delaying that flight on principal...I'm sure your 3-bladed razor...excuse me, I mean "MACH III" was worth my inconvenience and the inconvenience of ALL of the members of this board who have been on delayed flights because assholes like you fight the big battles that ultimately make air travel run much smoother.

By the way...how is that Volvo station wagon working out for you?

Alec

ALL - I simply must vent...I've seen too many assholes delay flights for stupid shit...these assholes could careless about everyone else except that they get their own "petty" way. I say, "shut-up and take your seat asshole, or we will leave you right where we find you."

Well quite honestly Alec, I would have done exactly the same thing Wallstreet did. I'm not going to stand by while a security guard tries to steal something from me (let's face it, that is what was going on).

So go ahead and throw me on your list of assholes. But given the tone of your post above, it's pretty obvious you're already on it yourself. Oh, sorry, I simply must vent here.

Heh, heh. At the ticket prices we all want to pay, I think I can understand why that security guard might covet my $9 Mach3 :-)

Can you imagine a whole plane-load of demanding assholes screaming about one thing or the other? That would scare me more than a blown tire. . . ;-)

Not speaking for Wallstreet, but I would view it as yet another example of a third-world shakedown. Crooked cops, thieving waiters and restaurant staff, sneak-thief hotel employees, touts, beggers, bums and the whole lot. Getting shaken down when you're about to get on a fucking airplane? That is a bit much. Let's see, instead of a razor and some extra blade cartridges, lets say Wallstreet had a Mont Blanc pen or something, and the "security" confiscated it because "he might stab someone with it". Now, the concept is the same - Third World Shakedown, Example #458,635,258. However, for those of you who would let the razors go, would you make an issue out of your couple-hundred dollar pen, or would you let the mordida go without saying and/or doing something to keep it?

First they came for the razors
And I did not speak out
Because I could get another razor.
Then they came for the pens
And I did not speak out
Because I could get another pen.
Then they came for something else
And I did not speak out
Because I'm a conformist sheep
Who unquestioningly toes authority's line.

Hmm ... it kinda loses something over the orginal, dontcha think?

For you razor boys, check out this thread.

Murasaki: Thank you

Catocony: My point exactly

Alecjammer: Go fuck yourself

WS

Alec
Take off all your clothes ,spread your cheeks, and look in the mirror before you call anyone else an asshole.

If I read Wallstreet's original post correctly, he told both the security guard and the pilot that the plane should leave without him if they insisted on confiscating his razor. How do you consider that him delaying the departure ??

I would venture to guess that at least 50% if not more of the male passengers on board carried on some type of razor. I certainly do on EVERY international flight-- never know who you will meet up with in the airport. Granted they are not all THE best razor in existence-- the Mach III (now the M3). This is not about a razor whatever the cost . It's about some egotistical or greedy security official waaay overstepping his boundaries.

If he told you your laptop could be used to remotely detonate a bomb in cargo therefore you had to leave it behind would you say - " Hey no problem ,take it,I don't want to delay my fellow travellers"?

Sorry - duplicate post

(Message edited by wallstreet on May 20, 2005)

KM

I was waiting for someone (other than me) to point that out.

I told them repeatedly to leave without me. And the more I did, the more I saw panic on their faces, a telling sign of who was right and who was wrong.

All I wanted was ANOTHER security person (preferably a supervisor) to tell me that a shaving razor wasn't allowed on board. If that happened, I would have taken that guys name down (like I did with the first security guard, Mr. Villaneuve) left my razor, and fought my battle from the friendly confines of my office.

I wanted to lock them into their position and was happy to do it at the inconvenience of taking a later flight.

Yesterday I dropped off a letter detailing the incident, along with photos of the offending razor to COPA's satellite office at 125 Park Avenue.

I'll be happy to share COPA's response, whatever it may be.

WS

I hope you don't mind, I tried to look at my asshole in the mirror...I can't get the right angle without using a hand-held mirror. But, while I'm down there I'll trim up the pubes with a Mach III...cause IMHO that's all it is good for.

Okay...Why the hell would anyone threaten to step-off the flight (requiring that person's checked baggage to come off)..thus delaying the flight over a petty $9 razor...an easily replaced toiletry item at that?

Guys, keep this in perspective. If they try to grab your laptop (expensive, plus creative "irreplaceable" work contained within), or a $200 pen (why would anyone take a $200 pen along when they monger?), or a sentimental object that cannot be replaced...I can understand making a stand...I'm sure most passengers, including myself, would agree. But a $9 razor...come on...move on and forget it.

Now, I need to include this because this makes me wonder, and perhaps I am making an assumption...but anybody who calls themselves "Wallstreet" shouldn't fret over a $9 razor. If Wallstreet is a broker, money manager, banker, or other type of investor...anything short of a wannabee...then he is simply being petty and fighting a fight simply because (IMHO) he likes to listen to himself argue.

Regardless if the airline is right or wrong when it came to the question on the razor...the smart thing to do would have been to simply tell the airline to check the item in checked baggage...which is ultimately what they did do to resolve the issue. But to take a defiant stand with an airline employee, especially in these trying times, is a risky endeavor...Especially on a foreign carrier where English may be the airline employee's second language. Believe me...airport security will take the word of an airline employee over a "defiant" passenger any day...and that will be nothing short of a troubled miserable day(s).

Perhaps Wallstreet won that bout with the airline regarding his razor...but IMHO he was fighting a petty fight ($9)...focusing only on his own needs and unnecessarily risking all of the passengers' plans on that flight...that pisses me off because it is stupid...and too often I am impacted by stupid people.

To resolve issues with airlines I highly recommend writing airline management whenever you have a problem with their service. On a few occasions I have written letters regarding poor service and each time I was compensated with either a discounted travel voucher, a free ticket, or additional frequent flier miles. Today I will never confront an airline employee beyond..."Are you sure about that? Okay, I will write your management with a complaint...can I have your name please?" This approach seems to work very well Vs. being defiant.

IMHO

Alec

Alecjammer:

1. You just don't get it

2. Go fuck yourself

Wallstreet,

It's a futile effort to even discuss this now. You made a stand on principle. Would I have done the same? I don't know, but I fly every week. Also, in case Alec is wondering about my economic status like he is yours, I'm pretty well off. Still, if I get on a plane and the seat is broken or the overhead light is out or the audio/video for me is not working, if I can't be reseated in equal or better condition I make sure I get my $50-75 voucher or whatever United gives out for those instances.

These days, you see a whole lot more of the "groupthink excuse". Today, it's security. People think they can do whatever and when questioned on it, they just say "because of security". It's the modern version of the equalizer, where every limpdick with no juice gets a small grain of power - think TSA or in Wallstreet's case, this asshole foreign equivilent - and they think they've suddenly become General Patton or something. It is complete crap, IMHO.

If someone fucks up, be it at a hotel, on a plane, at the airport, at the rental car counter, in a restaurant, wherever, I will generally seek a resolution. Most things are pretty minor and normal - an overcooked steak gets replaced, a hotel room with a busted air conditioner is declined and a better room taken, that sort of thing. But still, you need to at least note the situation and then go as far as you deem necessary to obtain satisfaction on the issue.

The cost of the razors is not the issue, although it would be an inconveniance if Wallstreet couldn't get a replacement wherever he was landing. This is simply a matter of principle. If every two-bit security fuck thinks he can get free shit just because he sees it in a customer's bag, and it's something as petty as a razor, do you think he'll stop at that? If he's inventing bullshit stories today to steal a $9.00 razor, what story will he concoct when he wants to steal more expensive stuff tomorrow?

We've all been around the world and understand how mordida is. The price always gets higher. I think Wallstreet did an acceptable thing. I would not have checked the bag just to keep some fucker from stealing my shit, why inconvenience myself by having to stand around an extra half-hour wherever I'm going, waiting on luggage? It's obvious from Wallstreet's description of what transpired - the guy saw the razors, he wanted them, and made a quick cover story - security - to get it. Usually, the person just says "ok" and dipshit has what he wants. Wallstreet called him on it, and instead of just admitting he got caught in a lie and letting Wallstreet pass (Latino macho bullshit perhaps?), he upped the anty and tried to hold his ground. However, Wallstreet was clearly in the right - if not, he would have known it and relented - and won the fight.

To me, the razor incident has an importance for another reason -- it may be a symptom of the lack of uniform implementation of policies or training of employees by COPA, from the Captain on down. If they can't do the relatively simple thing of properly training or keeping in-line their own private security guards at the lowest levels, they must not be putting in the effort to do the difficult thing of training their top-line pilots about proper procedures for takeoff. And just as the security guards probably get away with doing things like this in the past, I bet the pilot and airline ops probably took off from BAQ because they probably got away with doing so before in the past without being confronted. Based on my emails to COPA about the incident in question, it's safe to say that no one on that COPA flight complained about the incident except for the two or three Americans on Board. The 3rd world airlines gotta know that they can choose to conduct business as usual, but at the cost of retaining first world travelers like WS and myself. WS picked the right battle to fight to get that message across.

(Message edited by merlin on May 20, 2005)

LOL! I think you guys need to chill out about this IMHO. There will always be someone who delays the flight because his problems are higher priority than everyone else's. We've all had "clients from hell" that get off on bitching and complaining, turn minor things into huge issues, etc. etc. The fun part comes when we get to do the same thing back to others. . . :-) Just accept it as part of the game and move on.

When travelling I check one bag and carry-on one other bag. Periodically I must open my bag for inspection. If I am told I cannot carry-on a certain item...I will ask them to check it for me and provide me with a checked item stub. If I am told that a certain item still cannot be checked...and I am absolutely sure that it can...I will make one more attempt for clarification. If I am still told no...I will take names, numbers, time of day, location, flight number...whatever...and STOP DEALING with the lowest denominator.

Heating the issue up by calling an airline employee or security guard's bluff is risky...if you do...the object in question had REALLY better be worth the consequences. In other words, if you cross that fuzzy line between being within your rights or out-of-bounds...you could be charged with "disorderly conduct" or possibly "interfering with a crewmember's duty" or "violation of aviation security"...and not because of a razor...but because of becoming argumentative and combative...(your word against theirs' dude) a real bad day with steep fines/jail-time and/or placed on the no-fly list...that'll fuck-up your mongering for good.

If an airline employee is simply wrong because they do not know the rules...passengers DO NOT automatically become the authority. And if an employee is blowing smoke, just so they can rip you off...they will understand the risk they are taking when you pull-out a piece of paper and write their name and ID number down and tell them that you will contact management within their company with a complaint against them personally. But also, make sure that you do follow-up with a call or a letter (letter is always better IMHO).

If you are wronged, most airlines will compensate you, often better, for your lost or inconvenience...but you have to use a little tact too in your writing style...in other words, you lose credibility when you start-out by tell them to go fuck themselves.

Alec

PS - WS...I chuckled when I read your second "go fuck yourself response"...my chica took notice...albeit she said, "Who's Alec...who's Wallstreet" which drew another laugh when I said "two assholes"...your input apparently gave her an idea and she indulged me this afternoon and helped me "fuck myself real good"...I love the irony. I dedicate that nut to you dude...if it wasn't for you I would have probably waited until tonight to bust that nut...though I do not agree with you WS...thank you having something to do with curling my toes this afternoon...by the way...this chica is a real skank...I think you'd enjoy fucking her too.

Alec,

So you're one of the rats who shows chicas this board?

If MY flight was delayed and I was kept sitting in my seat while someone argued with security over a razor, I would be pissed. AT THE SECURITY GUY who made an issue of something stupid. Yes I would be mad as hell my flight was needlessly delayed but it would be easy enough to figure out who to be mad at. The law abiding traveler or the dumbass, crooked security guard.

BTW I usually carry a Shick Quattro FOUR blade razor since a three blade razor does not make me feel masculine enough. Although the last couple of trips I took a generic(?) "ShaveMate 3", three blade disposable razor which is really cool because it has a can of shaving cream built into the handle.

I wouldn't share this gem with any chica...make no mistake...the chicas I fuck can't read or habla ingles...all they do is suck and fuck and wonder what I find so hilarious on my magic light box.

But that is about par for this thread anyway and those who want to press the test button with airline employees and security...a just hope the majority of seasoned travelers know when to back-off...those who choose to be confrontational and combative can be the examples we periodically read about.

You all have free will. Use it wisely.

Alec

BRIEF POSTSCRIPT:

I must say that COPA bent over backwards to address the concerns by me and the others, I just wanted to let you know that COPA got rid of this ridiculous stopover in Baranquilla. Now the flight leaves CTG later, at 4:40 and gets in 50 min later into Panama. Much better than making that unnecessary stop in Baranquilla and having to wait in the hot humid plane and take off one more time.

Obviously, they didn't get rid of the stopover b/c of me, but it appeared many people were complaining about this stopver and ultimately it may not have been economically good for COPA.

All in all, COPA is still #1 for Central America and Colombia and I haven't had any other issues with them. I'll fly them every chance I get over any Domestic Colombian airlines.