Batser1 again I did not say all poor. I said most poor in mexico as in the U.S are poor because they are lazy.

Beavis, this discussion about who can post what where is a dead end. We can all voice our opinions forever and it will never change anything. I say we go back to talking about immigration.

here here! or hear hear or hea hea . Shit I agree with you finally.

Ahora most poor in Mexico are that way thru no education. The US poor don't have that excuse.

I know plenty of uneducated people in mexico. The family structure is strong and they stick together that is why they are able to suceed.

I lived in Puerto Rico for two years and observed a similar phenomenon. The well situated PR's didn't want to go to New York.

The joke was that the ones that went just wanted to collect cupones and checqes. The locals called them Newyo 'Ricens.

All the Thais I know here are hard working, want to save money and go back to Thailand. Everyone of them!

They say the quality/style of life here is no good
because we work to much and so few people own their own homes. Sabai, sabai...

Dazed & Confused...

Dazed & Confused & Innocent,

That's not hard to believe. I am an American, and I want to save money and go back to Thailand, too.

Kendricks no problem I thought it was obvious I was on your side. I will take an illegal Mexican any day over one of those ghetto blaster Brothers from the projects who is a US citizen. I was just saying that we arent going to be able to change anything but maybe it helps to vent a little. Im for Vincente Foxes plan to open the border. I am sure that I am going to get hammered by people who dont agree with me but I dont care. I have a lot of friends in mexico that I would love to bring to the US.

Beavis, we are in agreement on everything of substance. But - even though we will probably never change the minds of the hard-core immigrant haters, I think it is important to put the pro-immigrant argument out there. In other words, I don't think this discussion is a waste of time (or any more a waste of time than any other discussion, anyway).

Immigrant bashing has become a staple of politics and talk radio, mainly because immigrants are historically an easy, powerless scapegoat. Besides, lurkers often outnumber participants in any given internet discussion. If people who actually understand the tremendous benefits they bring with them remain silent, the immigrant bashers' bullshit will never be countered.

I think this thread has real legs. But I have to agree that no convincing is going on here. After all this, Ahora still maintains that MOST illegals immigrants are scum and come only to get on welfare. And he still maintains that MOST poor people in Mexico are poor because they are lazy. Everything I have ever seen and experienced would indicate differently. But, with his positions well reiterated, I know we will never close the gap in opinion.

But we do agree we both like Mexican pussy. So I would still buy him a beer anyday. Thats the beauty of a society that allows differences in opinion.

Beavis, I know your stuff from another board so I know you have more Mexico experience than almost all of us. I value your opinion. I am glad you are over here.

Kendricks sometime you scare me with all the unabomber stuff, but I also appreciate all your opinions. And on this issue I think about the same as you. Ademas tenemos algo en comun. Chilangas encantadoras!! Dos semanas mas y voy estar alli en chilangolandia.

Keep it up.

I dont hate immigrants I dislike illegal immigrants. One thing my Mexican wife (now that we got married 3 days ago) want me to ask you is why just about 100% of mexicans scream viva mexico and orgullosamente mexicano (proud to be mexican but then they come here to avoid the persecution and poverty they find there. Must be something they like! Ghetto blaster brothers sounds like a racial slur to me anyone gonna get on him or is it ok cause hes talking about blacks?

Well I ATTEMPTED to get my Mexican wife to respond to your Mexican wife's question (maybe we could get them both in the chat room..or better yet, does your wife box?) but as usual she wanted nothing to do with this crowd.

She did mention that, first, if your wife was REALLY a Mexican she would know why 100% of mexicans scream viva Mexico (she's right you know, 100% would have to include her). She had no idea what you were talking about regarding the persecution. As far as the poverty, she said though very happy in Mexico people do need to eat and desire to better their life which is why they travel to this country..yes to WORK! Nearly everyone she knows comes here to work the fields, make some money, and when the season is over return home and we've had a number of house guests that have done just that. She also feels, interestingly enough, that someone of Mexican descent who was born here and has been exposed to American culture is more likely to go on welfare or join a gang then someone whose just arrived from Mexico.

First of all why would you be proud of a country where the cops can pick you up arrest you beat you and make you pay to get released as a rule? A country that even its own president takes the country's money and leaves the country? A country where you cant make a living? Where you basically get ripped off everywhere you go? yeah I'd be proud. The next thing is this the reason alot of poeple from mexico are on welfare is this. Alot are uneducated and dont know that they should stop having babies if they are poor and as far as gang members I have seen first hand what happens. A family comes from a small town in mexico to the U.S. They are used to letting their kids run around whenever and wherever they want. After all they know all the neighbors and dont need to worry. They come here and practice the same child upbringing but the problem with that is there is drugs and gangs here and they dont know how to handle that. Anybody that disagrees with this is just plane wrong as I see it all the time. That is a good idea. If you are poor and have no money and have to flee your country to get a better life well then start off by not having anymore babies.

Ahora,

Congrats on the nuptials. Hope it all works out.

I agree with you on the baby angle. At least to a certain point. I think it has everything to do with education and religious belief. But that is a whole diferent topic.

IMHO, I think your law enforcement experience has jaded you forever on Mexico and Mexicans. I bet a big part of your attitude toward mexico is based on your contacts with all the scum in the Mexican government. I understand that a little. When I worked in Mexico City, we did a lot of work for the Government. In the line of work, I personally met Fransisco Labastida( interior minister and presidential candidate, Diodoro Carrasco( Interior Minister) , Rosario Green( Foreign relations minister, Pedro Cerisola( who was Foxes campaign manager and now Secretary of Transportation),Santiago Creel( Foxes Interior minister), among others. I did not work directly with them. I generally worked with one of their assistants. I spent several months visiting the Interior Ministry( Gobernacion) at least twice a week. That is a lot more exposure to Governement types than I like. And it gave me an insight into the whole governmental culture. My experience is that almost any person who wants to work for the Mexican government has alterior motives and they are a bunch of conniving thieving scum. They are there to milk everything they can and do not give a rats ass for their duty to the public. So, I can understand where you may have had some negative experiences and formed negative opinions. Especially dealing with Mexicos law enforcement agencies which are 100% corrupt.

If you are in law enforcement, you probably only have contact with criminals and mexican government official scum. Your contact with ordinary Mexican people is probably minimal. They are not as bad as you think. So I think maybe your view is tinted by your particular experience.

One thing though. The gang culture is fairly strong in Mexico also. Even in some of the smaller towns. A lot of kids were gang bangers before they ever got up here. I would agree that a lot of parents let their kids run wild. Once again I think it goes back to education.

Mexico has a hell of a lot of positives, too. Just bashing the negatives is similar to saying, "how can you be proud to live in a country where men are arrested and publicly humiliated for simply engaging in consensual sex with profesisonals?"

Obviously there are some aspects of Mexico you like BETTER than the US, or you wouldn't go there.

I agree Kendricks. My point is that I think Ahoras perspective is all out of wack. Because if he really knows Mexico, he would know that it is full of good, honest, decent people. 90% of the problems the country has can be tracked back to the fact that the PRI( Socialist-Populist) was in power for 70 years. They fucked the country up. At the expense of decent people. His experience gives him a certain perspective. But its like the old story of the blind men touching the elephant and each one saying it is something different. You should not gneralize and entire race and country based on your own particular perspective.
But his perspective may be correct for that sliver of Mexico that he does see. Who knows? There must be some reason for the negativity to Mexico and Mexicans in General.

Not to rehash what has already been covered, but I never did see the official source for the 63% welfare figure. I would like to see that.

It's very true that our opinions are based on what we've experienced, then they're tainted by our attitude. While some here may have traveled extensively in Mexico they seem to have no more insight into the country or it's culture then someone who has only spent a day in Tijuana, maybe it's because their spending all there time there in bars and whore houses. I agree that Mexico is far from perfect but there are aspects of it's culture and people that I find superior to this country. My first impression of the last rancho I visited was that the place was a dump with trash and stray dogs everywhere. It was only after spending time there that I understood why my wife missed it so much. Yes the people were dirt poor with few possessions and little opportunity for work but it was also clear they were very happy. Most owned simple houses and had a few farm animals. Without exception the people were very friendly toward me and each other. There was no crime. Every sunday a police truck would drive thru town, the only time I actually saw them do anything was when someone began shooting a gun into the air at a public party and they confiscated it for the night. Most disputes were handled by the towns mayor. Some of my wife's feelings about THIS country are that all everyone seems to be concerned about is money and they don't care who they have to step on to get it, there's no community or family life,people are unfriendly, no matter how many possessions someone has their always jealous or envious of what others have (yes she does have good things to say about this country also). In Mexico it's just a much simpler, freer life. It's definitely not for everyone, but to dismiss it as being a worthless country with nothing of value only shows that persons ignorance. While many Mexicans do leave to make some money here in America most return. My wife pointed out that in this country few people remain in the same area or state they were born in, people tend to relocate to where they'll have better job opportunities..which is all Mexicans are doing.

We relocate legally. Dont for get the mexican government will deport your ass in a heart beat if you are working illegaly. Baster as I have said before I have no rpoblem with the mecican people at all. I think in a whole they are great people and hard workers. Unfortunately shit floats to the top and we end up getting alot of shit. I have friends waiting to legally come across that are some of the good people. Problem is they cant because alot of the shit is here taking up there spaces. I recently had to take a trip to logan heights health center and north park health center looking for a man from mexico who has a girlfriend going to each as they are pregnant. This man is in a logan heights gang which is notorius for working for the arellano-felix cartel. He is a murderer and a drug runner. Well I would be happy to give you the addresses any time . 90% hispanic non english speaking most all with 2 or more kids getting medical. Anyone I dont care who they are should stop at 1 kid as a mistake if they are poor. I was watching spanish t.v the other day and saw 2 commercials for medical and even one for a program that mervyns has to give clothes to people on welfare. Funny I have never seen as many of those comercials in english as I do in spanish.

Much earlier in this thread I mentioned the fact that our own bleeding heart welfare policies are to blame for many of the problems. Why in gods name do we print instructions in several languages telling people how to get welfare benefits. I saw recently that the Agriculture Department was PROMOTING food stamps in Spanish. No frigging wonder people go on the gravy train when our own government promotes it. Cut off the supply and they stop going for it. And who do you suppose pays for the commercials on Spanish TV? The guberment( a little westfargo spelling).

What I asked for was where I could find the 63% figure. I think it was claimed somewhere in the thread that 63% of all hispanic illegals end up on Welfare. I don't believe that. But I will say this, if they are illegal why are we giving them welfare?

Toehead, if you do not mind me asking, what state is your lady from?

I see that stat at work. If you want to apply for a position ill show it to you. As I have said 1000 times above they are given welfare because they are pregnant and the fetus or any children born in the us are considered citizens. That is the loophole.

One exception to the above is WIC, which ANYONE with a child under 5 can apply for regardless of status and works similar to food stamps..and no they can't buy cigarettes or beer with it, each coupon is clearly marked, cereal, eggs, etc. So if there's any illegal ladies with kids reading this head on down.

Batster1, my wife is from the state of Michoacan. The closest small town from her rancho is about a two hour drive (all dirt roads) and is called Pandindicuaro, which is a couple hours drive from the city of Morelia (basically she's from the middle of nowhere).

My SOURCES (O.K., my wife) just informed me that any illegal collecting welfare that wishes to change their status at a later point would have to PAY BACK all the money collected before they can begin to have their paperwork processed by the INS.

Unfortunately that is not enforced as often as it should be as false information is often given to welfare as well as amnesty is just that amnesty.

Oh yes it is, I know someone who cannot get a tourist visa becaus of this.
And no,I dont feel particularly sorry for her...

Ahora,

I figured that stat would be top secret or something. And that you may have to kill us if you show us. LOL And no thanks Ill stick with my private sector work. I was on pretty good terms with the first secretary in the US embassy in Mexico City. He had an interesting life. He said I should get into the Foreign Service. Said I had good qualifications for it. I thought I was kind of old to be starting up another career.

Toehead,

Michoacan is my favorite state in all of the Republica. The whole area around Patzcuaro, Quiroga, Santa Clara del Cobre, Uruapan etc is absolutely gorgeous. I love it there. But those ranchos have a reputation for being wild places. Real Indian country with a lot of shootings etc.

Have you ever been through Tocambo? Thats where all of the La Michoacana pop sicle stands got their start.

I am going to reccomend a good book about Mexico and Mexican culture. It is a good and interesting read. Its got quite a few stories out of Michoacan. Its called " True Tales from Another Mexico" The author is Sam Quinones. You can buy it at Borders. I really reccomend it to everyone who has been participating in this thread.

To all people involved in this discussion I will repeat myself as I think you have a different kind of illegal than we have here in Texas. Perhaps it has something to do with what they see on the other side as all they see is open country here but from my view they are much different from what I am hearing here. I also lived in New Mexico and Arizona which has it's share of illegals also and I can't say that I have ever seen one lazy Mexican who snuck into the country to get on welfare. We all have our views but I'm sticking with my story here. How about the other people on welfare ? Is it OK for a US citizen who happens to be a worthless piece of shit to recieve welfare when he doesn't need it but someone who does is a scumbag because he wasn't born here. All of these questions have already been answered but they were the foundation of my discussion so I brought them up again.

I think the best way to resolve this discussion is for all of us to get together, ice down a couple of cattle troughs full of beer and surround ourself with illegal Mexican Chicas. When the party is over the last man who is able to stand up gets the final say.

Powerslave you are talking about visas which is true as I have stated I seepeople that already have their passports get them taken away. I am talking about amnesty

Beavis I dont care much for anyone that stays on welfare for more than a few months in case of an emergency. However we are talking about illegals not us citizens. Just because you have not seen one do it does not mean they dont. If you worked with these stats everyday you would know that there are tons.

I think it would be very difficult for an illegal to simply give false information to get welfare as the only way for them to collect is by using their childs birth and social security number and obviously they would have to be able to prove they were the parent (and I don't think were dealing with master criminals). And in the event they planned on staying here and one day becoming legal residents, having to pay it all back would be a BIG incentive for many NOT to collect it in the first place.

Batster1
Funny you should mention that book, I heard an interview with the author around a year ago and thought the book sounded interesting so I wrote down the title and stuck it in my wallet with the intention of picking it up. That was a year ago and that piece of paper is still sitting in my wallet and I still keep reminding myself to buy the book.

Michoacan has also always been one of my favorite states and has an amazing amount of natural beauty, though before I met my wife I'd really only been to Morelia and briefly Patzcuaro. My wife has taken me to a few spots that aren't on any maps that are really amazing..I'd tell you where, but like Ahora007, I TO would have to kill you! (no offense). I'll probably be heading down again soon now that they've started to get some rain there, it's a pretty amazing place right after the rainy season.

I think most of the Ranchos in that area have calmed down some in the last twenty years and aren't as bad as they once were. My wifes sisters all told me the locals would throw small rocks at me..never got hit once (I'm fast though).

The kids do not need to have ssn to get welfare. Also the fathers name is often not on the birth certificate as he is the one that would have to pay the welfare back not the mother

Hey Ahora

How many welfare checks go to the projects ? How long have they been going there ? I know you don't like them either.

Like I told you send your California welfare hungry Mexicans to South Texas and the Mexicans here will kick their sorry asses all the way to Tapachula.

Not a bad idea

Toehead,

Get the book. Alot of stuff out of Michoacan. Hey I thought you might be an OK guy until you said you would not share your hotspots. LOL

I think Beavises idea of all getting together over troughs of beer is a good one. Hell on day one of the thread I invited anyone who wants to discuss immigration over beers. But I have not had any takers.

Batster, O.K. you win, I just picked up the book (finally). As soon as my wife saw Chalino Sanchez on the cover she snatched it away from me and I'm still trying to get it back. Though she's really more of a Vicente fernandez fan..gotta love all those young Mexicanas idolizing overweight, middle aged men with badly dyed hair (and eyebrows). BTW, my wife was very impressed that you'd actually gone to Michoacan and visited a number of it's cities, she was convinced everyone here (including me) was hopelessly full of shit (actually I think there's hope for some of us).

I'd be happy to share my hotspots with you (hummm not sure I liked the way that sounded), it's the idea of all those other gringos invading the ranchos and behaving badly that concerns me, I've finally just convinced the locals we're not such a bad lot..though I'm sure I'll screw things up shortly when I inadvertently put some moves on one of my wifes sisters.

Well I think it is probally time to start deciding what kind of beer we are going to fill the troughs with. My favorite Mexican beer is "Montejo" which is made in Yucatan but not available in many areas other than Yucatan, Campeche, and Quintana Roo. We could always back it up with Modelo, Sol, or Corona. Dos Equis and Tecate are horse piss in my opinion so maybe we can start a new thread on Mexican Beer since the imigration one seems to be winding down.

One more thing I will add as I have never been to California is that evidently you have a different kind of illegal there than we are used too. Perhaps if I lived there my opinion would be different.

From what I keep reading about Tijuana and from the Pics I have seen I think a 1st time might happen in the near distant future.

Honestly I think your getting the same breed of Mexican that we're getting here on the coast. In fact, since many of them travel thru Texas on the way to California we might be getting the more motivated ones. Maybe all the ocean air and cooler temps here are making them more laid back (just a theory..and a screwy one at that). Your right about the thread losing steam, Kendricks lost interest in it days ago.

Toehead, I am impressed that your wife knows about this forum, and relays comments through you back to us. What are her thoughts on mongering, and your participation in a mongering forum?

I also wondered about that. My wife knows that I "used" to be active in the mongering community. But This board and any current activities are indeed my secret. You have a very understanding wife indeed.

Montejo is a great beer. Followed by Pacifico, Sol, and Modelo. I also like Noche Buena when it is available. Estrella from Guadalajara is OK also. I hate Corona. Not sure why. On a really hot day in Sonora or Sinaloa I can knock down really cold Tecates. Otherwise I also avoid them. They call them Rabanos( radishes) over in Sonora because they are red. Just a little usless beer lingo.

Toehead. I have been in some real backwater ranches in Michoacan and Jalisco. My Ex was from Jalisco and her father was from a little rancho on the Michoacan Jalisco border. Thats where the " Valientes" come from. Not real good country for pussy hunting gringoes. Probably the most backward places I went to buy lumber from logging camps in Campeche and Quintana Roo. There are some little ejido villages out there that are damn near stone age. Boy am I off topic.

I guess this thread is dying finally, but I will still maintain that MOST illegals are not bad people and they are just looking to improve their lives. I would take MOST of them over ALOT of gringoes any day. I also do not believe that MOST illegals go on welfare. becaus eall of the ones I have met avoid the government like the plague. But as I said before, My beliefs are based on my experience and they may not be correct. I will argue them over a cold beer and day.

Batster I admire your attempt to briefly get back on topic, I can't think of anything else to say on the subject.

It's true, the ranchos I've stayed at would NOT be mongering destinations and visiting one with that intention would be asking for trouble. I do think someone could find a wife in one, though you'd probably have to live there awhile. I've had a few opportunities, though of course BEING MARRIED I'm expected to behave myself.

For a Mexicana, and especially for a rancharita, my wife is sexually very liberal and amazingly tolerant of nearly everything I do. Of course I'm also selective about what threads I'll involve her in. Anyways the only threads I really have any interest in are the off topic stuff, I was never really into the mongering scene (too cheap). As far as this site is concerned I just tell her it's a great resource on Mexico and covers various subjects (which is all true). Her feelings on prostitution seem to be conflicted, one minute she'll tell me the girls are lazy, just want easy money and are out to scam the gringos and the next she'll tell me gringos just want Mexican women as playthings but never to marry.

Toehead,

Now I am going to go off topic for good. I have lived in Tijuana for a year and have not paid for sex. But I hang out WAY TOO MUCH in the Zona. And I find this board to be a gold mine about Tijuana and Mexico in General.

I have never been a super active monger. I have hooked up with Pros in several Mexican cities. I have used the pro talent in Mexico City, Guadalajara, Morelia, Zijuatanejo, Mexicali, Chetumal, Campeche, and Queretaro. But my specialty is ( or was) going after non pros. Or getting semi pros to do it for free. Mostly because I am one of those rare birds who like the chase ALMOST as much as the kill. I used to hang out in a bar in Mexico City where dancers went after work. Several times I scored freebies there with off work dancers. But mostly amateurs. El Alamo in Zona Rosa for anyone who wants to try their luck.

But since I married a chilanga I have been inactive.( I wish she were as liberal as your Michoacana) I like the board because it keeps me close to the action.

Batsterwhoisgettingitchyforstrangepussy

O.K., well we've really just gone off topic here. Originally this thread started in the "chat" section, which I THOUGHT was for the off topic stuff, then it was moved to the OFF, off topic section (I thought) which seems to be back in the normal thread section which gets archived. Oh well, I'm sure they'll sort it out.

I should mention my Michoacana wife would not let me spend time hanging out in the zona, she's tolerant, but not THAT tolerant.

I never seemed to have the right DNA for mongering, it would inevitably leave me feeling emotionally empty (not that I didn't enjoy aspects of it). I really prefer meeting someone new, pursuing the girl, the whole courtship leading up to having sex. The only problem being I'd want to move on again right after that. I've always said it takes me 2 weeks to get into a relationship and the next 6 months to get out of (if I'm lucky). I'm ATTEMPTING to behave with this gal, I keep reminding myself I'm not a kid anymore, unfortunately monogamy doesn't seem to be in my DNA either.

There is indeed a lot of good information here, the stuff about who screwed who in what club I could care less about and don't read. I have a Mexican wife, I'm fascinated by mexican culture, the ranchos, the superstitions and of course I find latin women to be incredibly beautiful and exotic. Where else can I go to discuss this stuff? This is the closest I can find to a Gringo support group.

The only thing I can add to this discussion is that although as an American I am concerned about uncontrolled immigration for a lot of reasons, after living in Mexico for two years I can also say that if I were a Mexican man I would be doing the same thing many of them are doing: get here anyway I can to make some decent money.

Most of you af you are idiots. Most people who work hard are not rich. There no correlation between working hard and being rich. Most of you certainly do not fall within the rage of "rich", at least not by American standards.

Becoming rich, in most cases, is a matter of luck. The mexican people for the most part are very hard working people. But the opportunities to get lucky are limited by the Mexican government's corruption. Imagine a system where the minimum wage is less than $10.00 a day and with that unknowing idiots expect the people to become rich.

I do not consider myself to be rich, although I probaly make more that most of the poster. I am bail bondsman and I own one of the largest agencies in my state. Working hard had nothing to do with my success. It was pure luck of being in the right place at the right time.

Would any of you bet on being "rich" if you started life with the disadvantages of those you seem to look down upon.

Bondsman, you are so right...


No matter how hard you work
in life, you're still going to
LIVE IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!!!

As for Beavis, your name should be Butthead. You trailer park dwelling moron. I want you to know I can buy the trailerpark you crawl out of each day, that is if you actually have a job. There are more of "your kind" using drugs, receiving public assistance and otherwise involved in things that bring down the quality of life in this country. By "your kind" I am not referring to whites or any ethnic group. Just racist lowlifes like Butthead.

Obviously, I am one of those ghetto dwelling brothers you refer to. But bet on this, I am better educated, richer, and can move in circle wher you would be unwelcomed.

Why would you dare say some dumb shit like that.

(Message edited by bondsman on February 03, 2003)

Bondsman, I think your attempts to get this old flame war going agian have failed(I hope). Although your opinion is noted.

snapper

You are right snapper, but ththat is not my intention. Actually I am a newbie on this quasi-organized sex mongering scene. Just got hot when even here I find people making insensitive racist statements. I would rather be reading about someone's field trip so that I can better understand what to expect when I visit Thailand this year.

But overall, most of the things I read are well written and concerns only what most of us care about. I must learn to be more tolerant of people with view thats better expressed at Klan rallies.

Maybe we should all commit to providing information instead of our personal statements about our personal bias.

Hope you understand my reaction.

Bondsman, I think you are right on target here. I can't stand the guys who come in here calling mexicans pieces of shit (fortunately, they seem to have dropped off the map).

It really is absurd to me that so many Americans feel superior to people from other lands, just because they were born into a system where obedience is rewarded with material comforts and consumer goods.

Thanks Kendricks for your support. Those who flame my views should ask themselves why they did not flame the racist statements I am condemning. Also, why would these these guys want to have sex with people they view with such distain. And if they are so adamant in their views, why not express them to the people while they are guests in that country.

I probally know Mexico better than a lot of the people on this site. I lived in the country for a while. But even if I had not lived their, I would be able to understand how fortunate I am to have been born into a system that allowed me to succeed.

I think that a lot of guys have (irrational) contempt for themselves due to their own whorefucking, and project this contempt onto the whores that they fuck.