PAYBACK? WHAT AND WHOM DO WE OWE?
> by Rush Limbaugh, March 11, 2002
>
> I think the vast differences in compensation between the victims of
> the September 11th casualty, and those who die serving the country in
> uniform,are profound.
>
> No one is really talking about it either, because you just don't
> criticize anything having to do with September 11th.
>
> Well, I just can't let the numbers pass by because it says something
> really disturbing about the entitlement mentality of this country.
>
> If you lost a family member in the September 11th attack, you're going
> to get an average of $1,185,000. The range is a minimum guarantee of
> $250,000, all the way up to $4.7 million.
>
> If you are a surviving family member of an American soldier killed in
> action, the first check you get is a $6,000 direct death benefit, half
of which is taxable.
>
> Next, you get $1,750 for burial costs.
>
> If you are the surviving spouse, you get $833 a month until you
> remarry. And there's a payment of $211 per month for each child under
> 18. When the child hits 18, those payments come to a screeching halt.
>
> Keep in mind that some of the people that are getting an average of
> $1.185 million up to $4.7 million are complaining that it's not
enough.
>
> We also learned over the weekend that some of the victims from the
> Oklahoma City bombing have started an organization asking for the same
> deal that the September 11th families are getting.
>
> In addition to that, some of the families of those bombed in the
> embassies are now asking for compensation as well.
>
> You see where this is going, don't you?
>
> Folks, this is part and parcel of over fifty years of entitlement
> politics in this country. It's just really sad.
>
> "Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the
> tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime." Adlai E. Stevenson,
Jr.
>
> Every time when a pay raise comes up for the military they usually
> receive next to nothing of a raise. Now the green machine is in
combat in
> the Middle East while their families have to survive on food stamps
and
> live in low rent housing. However our own U.S. Congress just voted
> themselves a raise, and many of you don't know that they only have to
be in
> Congress one time to receive a pension that is more than $15,000 per
> month
> and most are now equal to be millionaires plus. They also do not
receive
> Social Security on retirement because they didn't have to pay into the
> system.
>
> If some of the military people stay in for 20 years and get out as an
> E-7 you may receive a pension of $1,000 per month,and the very people
who
> placed you in harms way receive a pension of $15,000 per month.
>
> I would like to see our elected officials pick up a weapon and join
> ranks before they start cutting out benefits and lowering pay for our
> sons and daughters who are now fighting.
>
> "When do we finally do something about this ??"

As much as I despise Rush Limbaugh, I've gotta say he has a pointhere.

Is the compensation for 9/11 victims that he talked about from the federal government (that is, our tax dollars) or from charities?

Anyway, 9/11 is a one-time event. What I found more disturbing is the difference in pay between military service personnel vs. cops. People enlists because they want to serve the country out of loyalty. Soldiers are exposed to much more dangerous risks. Their works usually have worldwide consequence and history changing. On the other hand, cops are nothing more than "glorified" professional security guards. They do it for the money only. Anytimes an american cop dies, it's a huge, huge deal.

Something to ponder...

I'm no huge fan of cops, but I'd be willing to bet that their job is many times more dangerous than the military. How many cops die in the line of duty every year vs soldiers? Many more cops. And I don't think most people join the military for patriotic reasons - I think they do it to get a job. Don't get me wrong, I'm a super-patriot, but I beg to differ on some points.

Yeah those same cops that you cry to when your wife gets raped, daughter gets stolen or car. Yeah those dirty punks they must be in it for all the money they get.

Many more construction workers are killed per year than law enforcement, by far. They build our bridges and our homes etc. Nobody really seems to gives a shit though. IMHO...

Where did you get that info?

Leaving aside for a moment the intrinsic value of cops, I think it is an outrage that the government is giving money to the Sept 11 families. They were victims of horrible bad luck, but that bad luck is no fault of the taxpayer. Furthermore, what if the next attack kills 100,000? Are we going to compensate ALL of them? this will bankrupt the nation.
Folks, this is why you should buy LIFE INSURANCE.

Which leads to another point. The government is reducing rewards by the ammount of insurance paid out. Thus, if you were responsible, and paid up your insurance policy all of your life, you effectively get NO BENEFIT from your responsibility. Only a bunch of money wasted on premiums. On the other hand, if you were a slug and did not buy insurance, here comes the govt. to say "not a problem", irresponsibility is OK, and we will give you extra money.

I dont think govt should give out any money either. Charity was enough plus whatever benefits they get as usual.

here in Vegas it doesn't do much good to cry to the cops when you get your car stolen.They instruct you to stop by the station when you get a chance and fill out a report.


Most Dangerous Jobs
-------------------------------------------------
Which jobs result in the most fatalities? How do they compare to the average job?

Occupation
Relative Risk*
Leading Fatal Event

Average All Jobs
1.0 Homicide and Accidents
_________________________________________________
Fishers
21.3 Drowning

Timber Cutters
20.6 Struck by Object

Airplane Pilots
19.9 Airplane Crashes

Structural Metal Workers
13.1 Falls

Taxi Cab Drivers
9.5 Homicide

Construction Workers
8.1 Vehicular, Falls

Roofers
5.9 Falls

Electric Power Installers/Repairers
5.7 Electrocution

Truck Driver
5.3 Highway Crashes

Farm Occupations
5.1 Vehicular

Police, Detectives, Supervisors
3.4 Homicide, Highway Crashes

Nonconstruction Laborers
3.2 Vehicular

Electricians
3.2 Electrocution

Welders and Cutters
2.4 Falls, fires

Guards
2.3 Homicide

Groundkeepers and Gardeners
1.9 Vehicular

Carpenters
1.6 Falls

Auto Mechanics
1.1 Highway Crashes, Homicide

Supervisors, Proprietors, Sales
1.0 Homicide

Cashiers
0.9 Homicide


SOURCE: Data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics - Compensation and Working Conditions Online

* Relative Risk Rate is the fatality rate for a given group divided by the fatality rate for all workers. A rate of 2.0 means the worker is twice as likely as the average worker to die on the job.

It doesn't do much good in SD, either. My parents house was broken into twice, and both times, the cops took the report over the phone and refused to visit the house, even though one time the maggot cut himself coming in thru the broken window and left a bloody fingerprint on a mirror. The bastards did manage to find the time to hang a parking ticket on my car the next week for being 19 inches away from the curb in front of the house.
The FBI right now is doing an excellent job of fucking with someone who did not mail the anthrax letters, while the real suspects walk free. They also did a wonderful job with Richard Jewell.

PUTANERO where do military personal fall into on that list?

I do not know where you live but it is common practice for the cops to come to all residential burglary scenes if for nothing else than to clear the house. If they didnt you should have asked for a watch commander.

Powerslave these are a list of jobs.The military is not just a job...it's an adventure!

This happened twice between 1983 and 1989. Neither time did they show the slightest interest in coming out. obviously it is a little late to complain. I remember my father being seriously pissed. It happened in North Park, San Diego.
What the SDPD does these days, I do not know, having been in TJ since '89. I was not impressed at the time, however.

Today the Drudge Report is reporting that the total payout for Sept 11 victims may go over $6 Billion. Your tax dollars at work.

Powerslave/Ahora,

I think your viewpoints about helping the victim's families of 9/11 are cold and heartless.

I for one am glad the US Gov displayed some caring and compassion. An excellent use of my tax dollars that I fully support.

You must be a liberal. We will remedy cold and heartless situations by throwing other people's money at them.
The unfortunates on 9-11 were MURDER VICTIMS, just like 25,000 or so others every year. Is it fair to only compensate SOME murder victims? If we are to compensate all of them, where will we get the funds?
Is is intelligent to encourage people no to carry life insurance? That is what the compensation fund is doing, as those who had insurance get the insurance proceeds deducted from their award.

"as those who had insurance get the insurance proceeds deducted from their award."

and rightly so, why give money to people who don't need it?

Just give it those who do need it.

Now don't forget, we're talking about the tragedy of 9/11, nothing else.

"The unfortunates on 9-11 were MURDER VICTIMS, just like 25,000 or so others every year. Is it fair to only compensate SOME murder victims? If we are to compensate all of them, where will we get the funds?"

According to President Bush the people killed and their families were victims of war. I think every US soldier has a life insurance policy paid by the Gov that results in their families getting money if they are killed. This is something along those lines. You have to admit 9/11 was something very different than a cabbie getting murdered during a robbery. I don't see how you can equate the two.

"Is is intelligent to encourage people no to carry life insurance?"

Is what happened encouraging you not to carry life insurance? I doubt it. I don't buy that arguement at all.

Every one who serves in the US Military PAYS for life insurance, said proceeds being invested. When someone dies, the government pays nothing, it just dips into the trust fund created by the premium. If you had been in the military, you would know this, it is called SGLI, and runs 90 cents a month per $10,000 of coverage. Those who decline to pay the premiums get nothing if they die; this happened a few times in the Gulf War (to the great and unlpeasant surprise of the families.)

The maximum coverage under SGLI presently is $250,000, for a monthly premium of $22.50. )$270 a year) An 18 year old in good health could buy cheaper coverage on his own. The govt. is GIVING these people nothing.

I am with Powerslave on this one. While I certainly feel bad for the families of the those killed 9-11, I think these kind of pay outs set bad precedent. I heard that the families of those killed in Oklahoma by Timothy McVeigh are now asking why they should not be compensated as are relatives of those killed in The African Embassy bombings and clear back to the Marines kille din 1983 in Beirut. The Federal government can't be saddled with every claim. Reparations like this set a bad precedent IMHO.

Now if Americans want to donate Billions to the Red Cross and let them distribute the money, thats their business. Its a private donation.

Ahora,

Hope you are feeling well enough for us to all start razzin ya again. LOL.

Did you seriously think that being in law enforcement is more dangerous than working construction? Lots of professions are high risk. The difference is when an oilfield worker, a logger, a construction worker, or any of those guys, die there are no parades, no flags at half mast no front page eulogies. But they contibute to our standard of living and the american way of life just like those in high profile jobs.

Having the Beirut bombing or USS Cole victims get involved would set an even worse precedent. The actions that killed them were not even terrorism. What if we get a casualty toll of 50,000 dead out of our Iraq invasion. Multiply that figure by 2 to 3 million dollars each, and you have just broken the Federal budget.

I think both sides present some good arguments. On the topic of whether the 9/11 payments are justified I'm not sure where I stand.

As for the law enforcement subtopic, I really don't understand why there seems to be such general disrespect and hatred for them. Personally, I have never had problems with US cops. I'm not aware of any of my friends having problems with US cops. I've had a few "cop" an attitude upon stopping me for speeding or no seat belt, but I don't think that's a big deal.

The day of my first trip to Thailand with Cman, I was nearly killed in a hit-and-run automobile crash just hours before I was supposed to leave for the airport. The cops were totally cool, taking care of everything and giving me a ride to my house so I could drive to LAX in a second car I owned at the time. (my current)

I've had cops come to my house on several occasions for noise violations for parties I was throwing, they were always polite.

To be honest, the death statistics do surprise me, but I still think the situations are different enough to merit consideration.

Death by accident is considerably different than death by homicide, and the role officers play in keeping peace and protecting people should certainly be considered.

I think it's really easy for people to complain about things they don't have personal experience in. I'm sure if you had to walk up to strange cars on a regular basis when you personally know someone that has had their face blown off on a traffic stop you might feel differently. Likewise, if your job required you to break up hostile domestic squabbles, enter dark abandonded buildings, or cruise through gang-infested neighborhoods, you might feel differently.

How many of you have seen a room full of corpses? The worst that has happened to me has having a gun pointed at my face by a robber from a few feet away, but I'm lucky to never have seen splattered brains or gutted chests at a crime scene.

It may be an unpopular opinion, but in general I hold a lot of respect for US police officers.

Dart,

I did not mean to come down strong against cops. My limited involvment with US cops has also been fairly pleasant. In fact, after living in both Europe and now Mexico for the last few years, I really appreciate US officers compared to their counterparts in other parts of the world. I do think they have a difficult job.

I just thought it was interesting that Ahora, with a law enforcement background, questioned the death rate of construction workers. Maybe that is because I come from that background. When I worked in the oil fields I saw some spectacular and even bizarre deaths. I knew a guy who froze to death when the piece of heavy equipment he was operating tipped over and trapped him underneath without heat. I knew a guy who was standing on a capped gas well when it blew up. It propelled him 1/4 mile from the well site. Paramedics said that he probably reached about 500 ft altitude before he started coming down. And just last week, a man that worked with my father was killed in another gas well explosion. More bizarre, his 21 year old son was killed a few years ago in a derrick accident. Maybe because these last two deaths were recent, and maybe because I knew these people, It struck me as odd that so much attention is placed on police offices and 9-11 victims. In the end I think alot of people are heroes, even if society does not see them that way.

Batsterwhoplansonstayingoutoftheoilpatch

I will say I have no problem with the government helping victims out but charity has already payed out enough. Also one thing is helping someone out another thing is giving them the fricken lottery!

Oh yeah raz away!

Will as usualy, those who are not willing to accept responsibilty, are the ones with their hands out.


I pay for life insurance and my children would never have to ask a hand out from anyone if I died.

Insurance is cheap, even for an old fart like me.

So for the cost of one evening in TJ i can get a couple of million dollars of insurance and if I die by accident add on another four million. Just not that big a deal.

Of course the liberals just want a free ride and the government to pony up because they choose not to take the responsibility of self insuring their families.

Nothing really new or different. In fact the same boring shit from liberals who love the world and want a clean environment.

But it is all for the children, Ben. how can you be against that unless you are a heartless blob?

I have no objection to helping children, I just think the parents should be responsible, not the taxpayers(me).

I tell ya, it's tough being a liberal these days. Wish we had a mouthpiece as effective as Rush. I have to hand it to the guy, he is the best at what he does.

Ben, your tongue is barely in your cheek on that last post. I was believing you until I read that last sentence.

I was referring to this sentence.

"In fact the same boring shit from liberals who love the world and want a clean environment."

You snuck a post in on me.

If I didn't know that Rush was a puppet and a member of the "I got mine" club, I might listen to him. However, I DO know he is run by politics, money and power people. That said, he's just another reason to change the station. I don't care that he is conservative or that he makes good points. The human brain simply cannot filter out all the bologne while the ears are being itched by someone like him. I'll stick with Chuch Harder, someone who hasn't been wrong yet.

After about a week, no make it a couple of days, he just gets boring. Same old stuff.

He always takes the conservative position on everything and slants all information to his benefit. You really learn nothing from listening to him.

Fox news almost as bad.

And to think I am a conservative.

sacrilegious Ben, how could anyone not think Rush is right, er, ah, correct all the time? Do you think he says what he says because it sells and he makes a lot of money off of it? Naw, can't be true.

Indyla, what station/time is Chuck Harder on?

Fox news has some pretty fine women.

I like your priorities. Foxy news?

In my liberal world socialist security would include free prostitutes for guys over 62.

See, socialism can be a good thing if you run it right, er, ah, correctly.

Hell would be a good thing if you just added water and a better class of people.

More on Rush Limbaugh -- in the wake of the recent "comments" on ESPN, I'd have to say, I am on his side this time 'round. And it's killin' this yaller-dawg Democrat! To support Rush! Augh, the horror the horror ...

I don't follow football, so I don't know how reasonable or unreasonable his remarks about Donovan McNabb were, but all I heard him say, when they played the clip, was that Rush thought the QB was no good but had been portrayed as good by media which was overly hungry for success by black QBs.

That's not a racist statement. That's a statement about media coverage being racially biased. It reports (perceived) facts, it doesn't judge poorly or well on the basis of skin color. If my boss were an inept idiot, and also black, and I thought he got promoted to being my boss merely because of his skin color, would it be racist for me to say I thought he didn't deserve the promotion? Duh, no, of course not.

The whole thing has gone to PC hell in a handbasket, and way too quick.

The most disgusting thing is the manner in which the remaining members of the show he was on are totally kowtowing, bowing and scraping, brown-nosing to try to get back into some perceived "good books." They talk and talk about how they're shocked "race" is "still" an issue, ignore the statements made by Rush, each in the hopes of impressing his bosses that he's the one who should get a bigger paycheck because of his "sensitivity." Hyucking up a biggun ...

And now Rush is under investigation for some sort of prescription drug fraud / addiction thing. Bad week for him. Can't say I'm sorry to see a demagogue hoist' on his on petard, but I do say I'm sorry to see PCness rampant once again.


(Message edited by book_guy on October 02, 2003)

OK, here's the quick and easy way to describe the whole thing. (I like being able to get a "sound byte" figured out and written up and planned ahead, it prevents idiots from misunderstanding you.)

Rush did not say the QB was bad because he's black. Rather, Rush said that other sportscasters had said the QB was good, because he's black.

How's that for terse? Is it accurate?

On the surface it comes off as an episode in overcharged political correctness as you saw it. If you look at it hard though, it ultimately reveals Limbaugh's racial agenda because he's a smart man and perhaps even understands pro football. Smart people who understand football both inside the media and inside the NFL itself know that on any objective level that McNabb is nothing less than a special NFL QB still in the early maturing stage of his career, who happens to be off to a horrible start.

But Limbaugh's racial agenda is subservient to his professional agenda. He said it not because he is a racist, but because he has made his living cynically pandering to the "angry white male". He knew that such a statement would ring those bells - pump up his existing followers and win new ones. What he wasn't interested in was objective NFL analysis.

He knows his statement is untrue - McNabb is not overrated and the media has no agenda to promote black QBs in the present NFL environment which is years evolved beyond the time when black QBs were a novelty concept that needed promotion. As Gordon Liddy acknowledged tonight on Nightline, the notions Limbaugh attributes to the media and the NFL are "out of date".

Limbaugh knows it but that doesn't matter in his world. Thus contrary to his insistence that he was merely speaking his "honest" opinion, he was doing what he does - exploiting reaction in a segment of our society. And he said it in a forum that is not HIS audience, but the entire community of NFL followers.

As usual, he's full of shit, and the important thing again, is that HE KNOWS IT! His explanation in the aftermath is just another heaping helping of his routinely self-aggrandizing profiteering by pointing the finger at his persecutors...the very same who the ditto-heads feel persecuted by. That is the thing about most of the conservative talk show guys - they are smarter than their audiences...they have plugged into a formula for success. Talk radio in this country isn't dominated by right wing demagogues because a giant majority of americans respond to that message, but because media companies that operate networks of radio stations recognize that talk radio is at present most effectively be marketed to the right wing segment of the overall audience. Limbaugh and his colleagues are performers who tap into what their audiences want to hear.

ESPN plays in a larger arena and they should have fucking known that when they hired a proselytizing flim flam man as a serious sports analyst. Contrary to his stated defense, he needs to get his ass out of that chair precisely because he ISN'T being honest.

Erip…good synopsis of the Rush episode. I have never been a regular listener precisely because he does strike me as a performer playing to the hot buttons of his ditto-heads. Having said that, I do enjoy other conservative talk show hosts such as Dennis Prager and Michael Medved. These men seem to be more sincere in their beliefs. I never feel they are pandering to the audience.

I wasn’t aware that Rush was an NFL commentator. I can’t imagine what ESPN was attempting to accomplish by hiring him. I guess they thought he would increase audience share somehow. But from his perspective, why take such a job? He doesn’t need any more money. Is it a male ego thing? (Not only is he an authority on politics, our nation’s economy, global warming, and holes in the ozone layer; he has something to add to the world of professional football as well. Behold a modern day Renaissance Man!!)

And his quick resignation prevents him from having to back up any of his statements. He may be right about the true skills of Donovan McNabb. And he may be right about the media treatment of Donovan McNabb. I don’t know one way or the other. But he has literally 15 hours per week to talk as much or as little as he likes about this on his own show. He doesn’t have to answer a single question, or support any of his allegations. He should do a real interview with an authentic sports journalist who would hold his feet to the fire.

Rush is a patronizing pompous blow hard who is boring to listen to after about five minutes of his redundant diatribe.

He reminds me of me.

Rush came off as stating that McNabb was over-rated because he is black, with the implicit message that the NFL is somehow paying favorites with black quarterbacks. Since the reverse has been true for many years - many great black quarterbacks in college have been ´converted´´ into DBs in the NFL - this came off as a typically racist complaint about black quarterbacks in general.

Methinks Rush just forgot for a moment who he was talking to....

This whole limbagh thing shows the real stupidity that happens when various ESPN/ABC/Disney "suits" try to prop up declining viewership and revenues.

The whole purpose of hiring Limbaugh was to bring in a different perspective and to p[lay off his "provacative" commentary.

Well if the wanted that why not bring in Al Franken too!! Then I might watch!

It's like the age old story when the snake asks the turtle to bring him across the lake. The turtle refused saying its in your nature to bite and kill. The snake replied by giving assurances that this will not happen as it will kill both of them. Halfway across the river the snake bite the turtle, and before they both drowned, the turtle asks why he bit him. The snake replied he was right, he couldn't help it, it was in his nature.

If you invite a racist white man to comment on black athletes, you will get racist comments. He can't help it, its in his nature.

Whats worse was listening to Fox news et al., defending this idiot.!!

Hmm ... now that I hear from a football guy, I'm not so sure I support Rush any more. What I heard him say was, as I said, that the QB was overrated because of his skin color, not that the QB was bad because of his skin color. If, as Erip says, the idea that the QB was overrated is, itself, preposterous, then I can see how Rush was "looking for" (perhaps subconsciously?) an occasion to be confrontational and thus pander again to his prime demographic, Homer Simpson. I didn't know Homer watched ESPN ...

So, the whole thing is a convolute mess. I'm glad to hear that I now have a good reason not to have to support Rush, given that I usually tend to vote further left than Howard Dean. I'll let the jury remain out until I reconcile just HOW preposterous it was, to say the QB was overrated. As I said, I don't follow football. He sure looks big and mean, if that's worth anything ...

He was obviously just strung out on the Vicodin's. Hell, I've said some shit when I was really high that didn't sound that great the next day either. Oh well, what the hell. It's bad enough when you take a few to many Vicodin's and Somas, then have a few drinks and get on-line and start posting. Imagine if you got on TV that way and started talking. I bet I could start a lot bigger controversy than Rush did.

I think it is unfair to paint Homer Simpson as a racist or Rush Limbaugh's target audience (is there a distinction between the two?) I've never seen Homer make any disparaging comments to or about Carl, Hapu, or Krusty, nor have I ever seen Homer rant about "liberals", or display any other Republican tendencies (other than gluttony, which is not purely a Republican trait).

Erip pretty much nailed my thoughts about Rush. It really is sad that there are people out there dumb enough to believe he is anything other than a hypocritical radio personality, who is simply playing a role for his xenophobic, dumbed down audience.

I do agree with Rush's comments about the greedy asshole family members of the WTC attack victims, though. These widowed bitches need to put their ass back on the market - marrying a rich businessman should NOT be the equivalent of a guaranteed lifetime spent shopping at Nordstrom and eating bon bons, and having a family member killed should not be the financial equivalent of buying a winning lottery ticket.

(Message edited by kendricks on October 04, 2003)