Immigrant bashers, I have found, are primarily motivated by their own racism and profound insecurities. Their irrational hatred is "supported" by false claims, innacurate statistics, and flat out lies.

Prostitution in Mexico is not really legal, it is simply tolerated under certain circumstances. Similarly, undocumented immigration is not legal in the USA, but it is obviously tolerated, and for good cause.

Anyone who thinks people deserve a death sentence for coming to the US looking for honest work, yet goes to Mexico to fuck putas, is an unspeakable hypocrite.

Kendricks

I am not against immigrants at all. I am against illegal immigrants that choose to get welfare and medical. Fucking putas has nothing to do with it at all. I also dont hate anyone. You may be closer calling me a classist even though that would be not true. I dont have a problem with mexicans at all as all 4 of my kids are from mexico. You are also off base saying they are all coming to the U.S for honest work. You know water is not that expensive even in Mexico. We are not responsible to put water out and if we did what happens when some racist asshole poisons it which you know will happen. Or when INS camps the water holes? You may choose to be paranoid and anti U.S all you want. I however have worked for world diplomacy and safety all my life what have you done?

I was peripherally involved in yesterdays discussions. I agree on certain points with both of Kendrick and Ahora. On some points I think both guys are closer than they think.

I have long railed against the problems caused by illegal immigration. I wont get into the reasons why but I first started to study the topic in 87. Back then I predicted some of the things that we are currently seeing happen.

My conclusions. Immigration as currently practiced by a majority of the mexicans who enter the country creates social problems for both countries. In keeping with Ahora's philosophy, it DOES increase levels of crime in certain communities. And there ARE immigrants who just want to ride the gravy train and suck us dry. That is where Ahora is coming from.

In mexico illegal immigration creates its own set of problems. Our bullshit immigration policies create the undesirable phenomenem of abandoned families. Example: Jose goes to US. It is to expensive and risky for Jose to take family so they stay. Jose sends money home for awhile. Jose meets new bitch in the states and stops sending money home. He used to go back and forth for the holidays but now it is too risky and too expensive to cross. Once here, Jose stays here. Thousands and Thousands of abandoned families exist in Mexico. That definitely creates social problems in Mexico. Some might say big fucking deal. Its not our problem is it? Bullshit it is not our problem. One of the primary causes of immigration is poverty in Mexico. Poverty increases in one parent households. All those abandondend children grow up poor and become immigrants and repeat the cycle. And a big part of the problem is our immigration policy.

On the other hand, a MAJORITY of the illegals are just looking for a chance to improve their lot in life. That is a trait of humanity shared by all races. They are obeying the fundamental law of supply and demand. As long as we hire them, they will come. And they should not be automatically labeled scumbags and assholes. The reason there are so damn many of them is that there is no ocean separating Mexico and the US. There are a shit load of chinese out there obeying the law of Supply and demand. It just is not as easy to get here. Our immigration policy IS out of wack. It needs to be completely rethought. Until it is changed, the government IS responsible for a poorly planned policy that forces people into life threatening situations and makes criminals of otherwise honest people. That is where Kendricks is coming from.

When I heard about the lawsuit against the US over the water, I too was pissed off. I ranted at length to my long suffering chilanga. Who by the way also agreed that it is complete bullshit. But my anger is directed not so much at the families of the immigrants, but at a fucking society that has allowed these type of bullshit law suits to flourish and succeed. And unfortunately that atmosphere was created by our own do gooders in the Democratic party.

I do not know Kendricks. I do not always agree with what he says. Sometimes he even scares me. I have a mental image of him drinking beeers in the Zona with the Unabomber. LOL But his posts always show that he has taken the time to think things through before opinionating. That is not a common trait. I do not think he is anti-american. Maybe anti government. And there are a whole lot of people out there that feel our governement is fucked up. Including me. And there are a lot of us who do feel that evry day we are losing more of our freedoms. And one area that is fucked up is Immigration policy. But thank god we live in a country that allows us to criticize the government and its policies.

I also do not know Ahora. Although I did see him once. I believe that he also thinks about the things he says. I did not agree with his generalization about immigrants. I did share his anger about the bullshit lawsuit. From his statements, I assume he is in law enforcement. I hope he does not take all criticizm against the government as criticism against himself personally. We need good open minded law enforcement types that also realize that difference of opinion is healthy.

I know this post is not very coherent, but I just wanted to state again for the record that I see both sides of this issue. I agree with some parts of both arguments. It is an interesting topic and it is a shame that it flamed so quickly. If either Kendricks or Ahora ever want to discuss the issue over a beer, I will talk their ears off.

Baster who is probably smaller and weaker than both ahora and kendricks and hopes neither one is pissed off cause he dont want to get bitch slapped unless it is by a real mexican bitch( not a kinkle bitch either)

Wait a second there Ahora! I think you struck on an idea! The Border Patrol SHOULD install and maintain water stations in those long desert stretches, and then use them like a salt lick for deer. They could set up remote observation posts, track the illegals as they leave the "oasis" and then bag them far enough away so the coyotes don't catch on.
I like it.

Ahora:

I never said that "all" immigrants are hard workers, but the majority of them are. As Batster pointed out, maintaining a system that you KNOW will drive people merely seeking work into life threatening situations is a wrong that should be addressed. It is not Anti-American to say this, it is simply voicing the truth. In fact, the freedom to voice dissent is one of the things that is great about America.

Your tirade against working immigrants, coupled with your tolerance of professional American welfare recipients, speaks volumes about your character, whether you realize it or not.

Batster: Very well said.

Well lets see. I never said I tolerated anyone on welfare. I also do have a huge problem with illegal immigrants as I have many friends that have been trying to come over for years the legal way but are not able because of the illegal people coming. Why punish people who go about doing things the right way and then reward law breakers?

Your friend just need to grow some balls, and jump the border like everyone else. Why should your friends be rewarded for being pussies?

I hate parasites almost as much as Ahora, but they exist. However, I do not think that what we are doing is just making observations on the side effects of having corrupt politicians run the country (in Mexico) and could care less about Jose's family.
I'm just a realist who understands that the individual looks for ways to maximize their utility at the expense of anyone. Coming to the United States is best chance for many people from all over the world.
Drew who: That's a great idea, but it doesn't solve the problem. Mexico is a religious country where from a very young age I was taught by elders that being poor and humble was the key to heaven. Education has increased so I think things will get better not worse.

It is very easy to agree with Ken because I can relate to him being detached from the influence of bureaucrats and religion...it's a very interesting perspective (perhaps one that will allow you to see through the illusions and right at reality).

Jarocho

Very good points, Jaracho. People who have their own identity tied up in a bureaucracy or a religion usually find it difficult (or impossible) to engage in open debate on related topics. Instead, they end up mindlessly defending whatever group it is they feel allied with (even if that group is really just using and abusing them).

The way I have been labelled "Anti-American" just because I disagree with the US government's policies on certain issues is even more bizarre. What if communists took control of the US government - would it then be Anti-American to be against communism?

Kendricks

I have no problem with illegals who come here (ie there) to the US to work, albeit I know they are breaking the law. If we could find a way to deport one lazy ass American born welfare recipient to Mexico for every hard working Mexican illegal we accept, it would be great. Mexico would probably declare war on us.
However, I have a HUGE fucking problem with people coming here (especcially refugees) and immedietly collecting SSI, AFDC Food Stamps, and a host of other benefits. Some few of you know what i do for a living, trust me, I see a lot of this shit, and it pisses me the hell off.

Kendricks, I generally agree with most of the stuff you have said on this board, in fact, I can't think of one point of disagreement until now. However, I find it infantile to label anyone who has even slight questions about current immigration levels as some kind of racist.
In the same sense, I find it hilarous that Pym Fortuyn, the murdered Dutch politician, was labeled ultra right wing just because he objected to the incredible levels of ragheads arriving in his country and isolating themselves in ghettos.
(the guy was a dope smoking homosexual, he would have gotten along REAL well with the Falwell types in this country)
My point? Reasonable people can disagree, but just because not everyone supports open borders makes them racist.

My friend is a pussy because he wants to do things the legal way and wait his turn? That is the most ignorant response you have made yet.

As I'm sure many people here know, up until around 1850 or so California (along with Arizona, New Mexico and Texas) were all part of Mexico. The united states did win them fair and square, though many of the old folks in Mexico consider these the occupied territories. I PREDICT (not unlike criswell) that by 2025 california will have a latin majority and be run by Mexicans (well, Mexican American politicians). You can turn blue in the face but there's little that can be done to stop it at this point, even the Republican party, after attempting to stem the tide in '97 with a lot of mean spirited legislation, has seen the light and is now trying to court the latin vote. There may be a few pockets of gringos left, but most of the red necks will have moved to Arizona by then ;).

All this debate. Jesus Christ. Is it me or what?

Correct me if I'm wrong. I've allways believed that the main source of all problems we have in this country are the lying thieving polititions
that have been bought and paid for by so many foriegn (and domestic) sources that are constantly fleecing the American people.

They do not legislate in the best interests of the American citizens but in the interests of lobbyests and "other supporters".

Our interests and well being is last on the list.

The problems we have come from rotten greedy power hungry polititians who control the spineless anesthetised population.


Mr. Innocent

CASE 1: I IMMIGRATE THE RIGHT WAY
I married my Mexican wife and immigrated her here. I put the paperwork in Oct., she was called to Guadalajara in Nov. She was given a visa immediately upon turning in her paperwork. We had 90 days to be married or she had to leave. We married at the end of Nov. By Feb of the next year she had her permanent residency. She continued working in TJ and I worked in San Diego. This was the way things should work.

CASE 2: TRIED TO DO IT THE RIGHT WAY
I send in the paperwork to immigrate my wife's youngest brother who was age 7 and orphaned. I show all the support the INS requested. We waited FOUR years for INS and they still had not processed his application. This pissed me off. Solution: the same as the the majority of immigrants from Mexico... He came across illegally. Eleven years later, after he finished junior high school, high school, and community college. Congress had the wisdom to allow for amnesty. He applied and received his permanent residency. Two weeks later, INS sent him the appointment time for the original request to immigrate. This was with family ties and no worry of financial burden to this country.
He went back to Mexico where he is building low income houses. Knowledge he learned here. Now he has the freedom to be in both places, but it was a major hassle.

CASE 3: NEXT DILEAMA
Now he got married in Mexico to a Mexican and has two kids. He would like to get them a tourist visa to visit the rest of the family in San Diego. He has to apply just like he did to get a tourist visa. Eleven more years wait or tunnel under the fence?

MY OPINION.
INS is fucked up. They prove it everyday now. They have been fucking with people's lives who have a natural tie to this place we call California. Mexicans immigrating here have been doing it from the before the land was US territory, and the US immigrants from other states in this country should have no more rights than any other immigrant to California. That would include almost all of us.

Did you see today's San Diego Union's headlines?
One in five county residents foreign born.
One in four state residents foreign born.
Yet California remains as the strongest most viable economic engine in the United States. That could not happen without immigration, legal or illegal. Mexican or Indian or Pilipino or English or French or African or Russian or Chinese or (how many countries are represented in California and the US?) What would that headline be if they included all immigrants from other states in the US?

I think if there were ways for workers to come here, work and bring other family members on a temporary vacation, many Mexicans would go back home. Well, maybe not if they have to wait though that fucking border.

Actually, the INS as it is presently constituted, is just one more of the ways white people from the US hang on to our racist ways. I know from which I speak. I worked at a Customs Officer in San Ysidro one summer, and observered those INS and Customs Agents as pretty much ignorant racist thugs trying to do their part. The Border Patrol is just a lower class of INS agent. It made me sick.

Anybody know if all this border crackdown has detected any Mexican, Taliban or al-Qaeda terrorists? Our agents must be laughing all the way to the bank with all the overtime they are getting.

ONE MORE THOUGHT
If Mexico required the long waits for visitors' visas from the US with all the bullshit paperwork the US requires, how many of you would figure out a way to cross into Mexico illegally to get the "sucky, fucky loving treatment we pay for at every chance we get"? Would you wait 11 fucking years to have your visa approved to be with your fav?

PLAN OF ACTION
Write your Congressman and petition to make it easier to bring in more chicas legally! But allow them to go back to raise more little chicas in Mexico or Argentina. Have you looked at Moondogs photos? They take my breath away.

It was not long ago that the mexican government stated they were going to start charging us to come across the border. It may have been past rosarito or something so im not 100% sure. You did hit the nail on the head. Start a process to give people temp work visas so they can work legally then we can boot out the trash that just sits on their ass or costs us and come across illegaly. I think anyone who is not a citizen and applies for public aid without paying taxes should be booted period. Americans that apply should get a 3 month lifetime limit on aid not 5 years. If I live in chula vista and send my kids to la jolla to school then I have to pay so why should the people living in mexico that send their kids to our schools not pay for theirs? Guys the simple fact is we need to reward the hard working mexican people and boot out the lazy people looking to take and not give

A friend of mine just married my wife's cousin in Bangkok. We submitted all the paper work.INS replied his application wouls be processed in aproximately 864 days.

He's considering getting a divorce. Duh.

We have no control over much of what happens to us any longer via "the system". Unless you have big BIG bucks of course.

Let the debate continue. What we do have is time
Oh that's running out to...

Powerslave:

I am not saying that everyone who disagrees on border policy is racist. My "racist" comments are made to the likes of Michael Savage and his ilk, who wring their hands over the fact that white people don't make up as big a percentage of this country as we have in recent centuries. I have even heard white people make comments that Mexicans in this country should be "hunted down down like dogs".

Before I married a Mexican woman, I did not really understand the extent of the racist attitudes of a lot of white people either. She finally convinced me by going to the bank, etc. with me, but pretending that she was by herself, while I waiting in the wings and watched. The treatment that she received was much, much worse than when I stepped in to complain. In fact, if I were constantly subject to that attitude, I would be a serial killer in no time.

So, Powerslave, my comments regarding racism didn't some from some PC textbook, but my own experience. I'm not saying that all white Californians are overtly racist, but a lot of them are, and there is a huge bias against Mexicans - a great deal of which fuels the anti-immigrant sentiment we hear so much of lately.

Kendricks

Please do not peg white people as the only racist people in the state. Mexicans are more racsit towards African-Americans than all of the other races combined. See what happens to a Chinese-American girl when she brings home a black guy. I have seen numerous families simply disown their kids for marrying someone of the opposite race. Minorities are not immune to racism.

I think having an "anti immigrant" problem and having an illegal immigrant problem are very different. I do agree that the system could get alot better but people, all people need to take account for their own mistakes and not blame others.

Blazers,

This is true. Asian cultures are notoriously racist. When I was in Korea, I was actually denied entry into some establishments, due to my whiteness. I have seen how the Japanese tourists treat the local Thai people like dogs, when I was in Thailand. I don't remember saying that whites are the only racists, this just happens to be the present topic of conversation.

Perhaps the racist attitudes of white people bother me the most, because I am a white person who loves visiting Mexico, and ugly Americans on both sides of the border give Mexicans a reason to hate white people.

So everyone here either was married, is married or plans to get married to a Mexican gal, that's pretty amusing, why are we even having a debate about Mexican immigrants? As Americans we can simply drive over the boarder into Mexico any time with the sole intention of screwing their women, yet we get indignant when they have to break the law by crossing over the boarder with the intention of finding work here. Who cares how they get here?. My wife came in illegally, as did the rest of her family, it's just to expensive and takes to long for them to get a visa to visit here from Mexico. All of them traveled here with the intention of finding work, not "living off the system", the majority of them have no clue as to how "the system" works and are afraid of anything to do with the government. One of them now gets W.I.C. though that was only after I took her down to the office and helped her fill out the paperwork (blame me).They would all be more then happy to pay taxes but of course can't get social security numbers. Even after my wife got her SS# her employer didn't want to use it as he wouldn't be able to have her work 12 or 14 hour shifts and didn't want to pay for maternity leave, unemployment or overtime (among other things). Nearly all of them would prefer to be living in Mexico, and if the Mexican economy were stronger we wouldn't be having this debate. Maybe I'm just more tolerant then others.

Toehead,

You hit the nail on the head. One of the root causes of illegal immigration is the willingness of some scumbag employers to hire immigrants without any paperwork whatsoever. These same scumbags then abuse the immigrant by not paying Ot etc. IF there is no demand for labor, there will be no immigration. It is simple supply and demand. The solution is revamp our immigration law and to steer Mexico's government toward a rational policy of creating employment in Mexico.

You are right. Most people do not want to leave their home. They leave for economic reasons. And while scumbag freeloaders do come over, I still maintain that THE MAJORITY are not freeloaders.

A few years back I was part owner of a business in Phoenix that employed maybe 150 Mexicans. We did things by the books. We filled out I-9s we got two forms of ID etc, etc. As a practical matter we knew that alot of the documents were probably fakes. But our job was to ask for the Id. Not our job to be immigration. With time we found out that there were a lot of illegal's working there. But we were covered. We even had several INS inspections and were cleared 100% because we had complied with the law. What we did do however is call all of the employees together and say. Tomorrow the INS is going to inspect employment documents. If any of you have provided false documentation, this is your chance to get the hell out. You will be paid up until today along with any accrued vacation etc. If you stick around and risk it you are subject to deportation. The next day about 20 of them did not show up. But we paid OT, full benefits etc. I have zero respect for the people who abuse the immigrants illegal position to force poor work conditions etc.

As for the comment above about racism. Racism is an ill that afflicts all nationalities. The Mexicans treat full blooded indians terribly. And I do not want to get off topic of this "Off Topic" but there is a fair amount of racism against Orientals, Hispanics, and Whites within the Black Community.


As for toeheads comment that we are all hooked up with Mexicans. I guess that is what we have in common. An undying appreciation for sweet panocha.

My perspective, as a former immigrant. I was an American citizen living in Canada. Good discussion so far.

First off, I experienced a different dilemma from the one about the USA-Mexico border. Americans and Canadians (at least the Anglophones in Southern Ontario), in large part, have similar cultures and cultural values, and levels of economic prosperity. A Mexican is much more likely to be motivated to change countries simply because of economic opportunity, than an American or a Canadian is. So, I don't presume to speak for all cross-border experiences.

But that having been said ...

A. The Border stuff is entirely fucked up. Way way way fucked up. Call six times, get six different answers. Case in point. I had brought to Canada with me an old beater of a car. I had to return it to the USA to dispose of it when I got my new car. The manner in which I was allowed to return it to the US as a "non imported" vehicle was preposterous. I had provided, upon initial export, the bond certificate, the bond itself, and the proof of purchase within the US. I still had those documents. The premise behind these is, that you can't import or export a vehicle without paying tax; but you can bring it with you for your own use. I had done that by the book. But upon returning, Customs and Immigration wanted proof that the car was, indeed, American -- like, to prevent me from importing a 1978 Oldsmobile Station Wagon without paying .50 cents tax on its declared value, or something. The REAL documents weren't worth their time -- what the agent had told me when I exported it at first, wasn't any more the process they now did. What did we eventually use, as proof that the car had once been in the USA and therefore could return to the USA for disposal? I kid you not: a Kentucky Fried Chicken receipt, back-dated because it was so old and greasy, which they found under the back seat when they lifted it up to see if there was any contraband. A KFC receipt outranked the combined forces of all previous border agents. Amazing.

B. Other countries hate the USA. Canadians are remarkably bigoted about how "stupid" Americans are -- I can't count how often I had to hear a story about how "all you Americans" are dumb, bigoted, not right, not together, not educated, trying to take over the world, pushy, arrogant, and oh by the way "not you you're different." The striking thing about Canadians on this subject, in particular, is that they can most of them feel quite comfortable saying, with a straight face, "The reason Canadians are so much better than Americans, is because Canadians never talk about how much better we are than Americans." Never? As in, not counting right now? Here's another anti-American thing, corroborated by all Americans I met during my stay in Toronto: a polite conversation never goes, "So, now that you've seen how great Canada is, are you planning on staying?" No, that much is assumed. Rather, it STARTS by a Canadian announcing, "So, now that you're planning on staying, what form of Visa are you planning on getting, a Student Visa or a Work Visa." They take great offense if their initial assumption (that all people who have seen Canada would never choose to leave it behind) is somehow questioned.

C. Being a foreigner is a surprisingly insidious thing. There are a billion little things you don't notice, but everyone else does. You wear Levi's with a t-shirt, for example. Suddenly everyone knows you're American. "Hey, how'd they figure it out?" In like vein, OFFENDING others because you are foreign is often a surprise. You wear Levi's with a t-shirt, for example. Suddenly everyone knows you're American and IS ANGRY ABOUT IT. In like vein again, it impacts you negatively in ways you'd never guess. You wear Levi's with a t-shirt, and six months later you get fired. You ask why. The only explanation is, "You just aren't working out." The fact is, it's GOVERNMENTALLY REQUIRED that Americans get fired first ... a dirty little secret they won't tell you when they're hiring you, because of course they want you to take the job. Similarly, Canadians must be promoted first, even if the Americans have all their paperwork in order. You wonder why your career is faltering. When you leave, suddenly you feel relief that you are appreciated "for yourself" and your good work doesn't go unnoticed.

D. Being the "outsider" breeds a great deal of anger. After I returned to the USA from Canada, I had a much better grasp of that old bugaboo, "Black rage." I am a WASP, someone who always used to think that educated, intelligent Blacks in America would do much better if they would stop AGITATING and start cooperating. None of that, "It's a Black Thing, You Wouldn't Understand" mentality, I thought. Less of that, whaddayacallit, SEPARATIST shit. Less Black History Month, more EVERYBODY History Month. But then, my experiences in Canada informed me of something. They taught me that after a while you just get fucking SICK of cooperating with a fucked up system. If all the Canadians are going to assume I'm aggressive and moronic, I started thinking, then what the Hell, I'll be damned aggressive and moronic, at least then I won't have to listen to that cloying "but you're different" litany again. I got TIRED of trying to cooperate with non-cooperative people. I was socially EXHAUSTED. I just wanted to get OUT of any discussion of the "differences" between A and B, whether that was the USA and Azerbaijan, or the USA and Canada. I had specific ideas, sure, and could probably have defended them intelligently, but intelligently defending something was really just plain old out of the question, because I had been worn to a frazzle. It took me three months of "calm down" time after I returned to the USA, before I even REALIZED how frazzled I'd been.

So, if I put all of that together, I realize that there's some really obvious lessons to be learned about Mexican-Americans, legal or illegal.

First is, Mexicans rightly distrust the official system of paperwork, in Mexico OR the USA. Immigrating is a hassle, and a self-contradictory one at that. Why get your papers, if the next officer is simply going to ignore them? Might as well start collecting KFC receipts!

Second is, you get worn down. People are always generalizing, and sometimes the generalizations are "fair" or "right" (provided you remember that they're generalizations) and sometimes they're ridiculous bigoted assumptions that bear no relation to reality or stem from the oppressor's desire to congratulate himself and secure his own position of power for future gain (the whole "lazy" and "fat" thing comes to mind). But either way, they're NEVER easy to avoid, and they're NEVER worth talking about. They just FRAZZLING. You get sick of it. You want to go back to someone who treats you as an individual, and that means sheltering yourself in your own communities, descending somehow into a familiar void where people aren't talk talk talking about what's different between A and B. Ever notice how, even in the Mexican-American barrios of Los Angeles, very few of the Hispanic people who live there ever bring up, even among themselves, such discussions as, "Americans do this but Mexicans do that"? And yet they're living the "this versus that" experience! Ever wondered why they don't bring it up? It's because the very act of generalizing, in the first place, has already been over-used on them. They're sick of being general. They just want dinner.

Third is, you start to fail at your appointed tasks, in manners that you don't know are failures. Suddenly, six months later, someone is saying, "It isn't working out" and you DON'T KNOW WHY. It was the Levi's with the t-shirt, really, it was, but nobody told you that at the time, and they wouldn't have wanted to admit that they were judging you negatively on the basis of something so shallow, and you THOUGHT you looked just like everyone around you, and anyway what the FUCK does the type of jeans you wear have to do with whether or not you're a good library assistant?!! Geez, you want to say, all you had to do was ASK and I would have I dunno, changed 'em or hit you in the head with a book or something. But by them it's too late, and you have to go out and find another bottom-level job and you start to wonder whether all the recommendation letters you've collected while you're there, neatly filed at some career office miles away, don't actually all say, "Nice guy, but too Mexican. It's not going to work out."

I'm actually glad, in some ways, that I had my experiences in Canada, negative as they were, because I've learned about how to REALLY pay attention to people as individuals, since I received for a decade the brunt of having that NOT done for me. And I don't pretend to know about the lower-versus-upper class things that go on in Mexican-American immigration issues; or the whole economic prosperity issue. I'm just making some observations here. But I do think there are some parallels.

What I try to do, is look deeply into everyone's eyes. I do that literally, in a newly forthcoming, outright, direct sort of "sociable" socializing that bespeaks a type of forward-looking, proactive desire to get to understand people. I try to do that, in some way, with everyone I meet. But I also do it metaphorically, when I remember, and I try to make it part of my day, to actually figure out what people are like. It's the whole "generalization" thing, and not exhausting them with cubby-holed judgments, and not letting ANY judgments catch ME unawares. So that I notice when I'm looking at someone and judging them negatively simply because they're wearing Levi's with a t-shirt, and I catch myself out, because now I'M the majority likely to leave the minority out of it "working out" for whatever reason. And I don't want to do that. There's human potential there, potential which I value, and I want to know about it.

Ask anyone from mexico and they will tell you they are very proud of their country and people. One problem is that when they come here to live here illegally they are pretty much abandoning their country and if they keep doing that then Mexico will never change. If we were to go to Mexico and apply for free schooling housing or anything else we would be laughed at. Mexcico deports people out of their country also beleive me. My old neighbors are homeowners and have 2 newer cars. Both have jobs and they are on wic. WTF that is wrong. By commenting that we go to mexico to fuck so they should be able to come here illegaly is idiotic. We cross the border legaly and we are contributing to the economy of mexico. There is one thing you guys skip. That is their are a ton of people trying to come across and work legaly. Why should the assholes that just jump over illegaly get to have the rights first? Many of the people we have here illegally are only qualified for low income jobs which means that when they get pregnant or sick they need assistance which is welfare. I used to own a 40 apt building where most of the people there were illegal. EVERYONE was working and EVERYONE of them was on welfare. Trouble is 60% of them ended up getting evicted for not paying their rent. Oh sure every weekend they would be having their carne asadas or buying dresses for quicianeras but when the rent time came they would say they didnt have money. I know all illegals are not like this and there are alot of them that are hard working but we are looked on as stupid by alot od them and if they offer me something im gonna take it attitude sucks. I have 4 kids all of which are half mexican. Almost all of my girlfriends have been from mexico. Great people most of them and great family's. I have no problem with them or 90% of the Mexican people. Unfourtunately shit flows to the top and the border towns are filled with criminals and people that will take advantage of our system. One thing that would make me happy is to give them work permits to work at bussinesses that apply to have them and need them. Have some kind of check in process for them to show that they are staying out of trouble then in 10 years immigrate them. I have 0 problem with that. However before they are immigrated if they apply for any kind of public aid then they should be deported immidiately same if they get arrested for a misdameanor or higher. Someone mentioned the Union Tribune story yesterday. Did you see the lady complaining about the fear on INS and getting deported? She says it has already happened several times before. Then wtf quit coming and do it the right way. I would ask that any one of you accompany me to any welfare office ion san diego and you will see that at least 75% or higher of those receiving assistance are illegal. Something is wrong with that. Notice I said nothing about their being mexican I said illegal

So people come here without papers. Get over it. I have a lot of respect for people who have the balls to roam freely across the planet, without regard for the beaurocratic policies of the armed gangs known as "governments".

As far as social services go, it is ridiculous that any person able to work gets a free ride. Immigration status is completely irrelevant to this opinion. Why do you think that people born in the USA should be able to get a free ride off of the work of others?

Also, if you want to recieve civil responses, stop referring to people as "assholes", and using other derogatory slurs. It is really hypocritical of you to ask that people respond to you civilly, when your posts are riddled with inflammatory slurs.

I beleive you were the first to use derogatory terms to me! By the way those people you respect are criminals

Criminals?

The problem of illegal immigration would be fixed in one election cycle if the REAL criminals were convicted, sentenced and jailed.

I'm talking about the Big Money Agricultural and Industrial employers. They chose to profit off of the misery and toil of "illegal" immigrants. All the while, they are denying "legal" employment to those citizens and "legal" immigrants who demand to earn a living wage.

There is no other solution. When a few of these millionaires end up grabbing their ankles in Chino, they'll get the picture and demand real immigration reform. Right now, the status quo is just to profitable.

Well they are rushing over here to get abused I guess. 2 wrongs dont make a right

As usual, Ahora, you are dead wrong. The "water for illegal" post you made used plenty of derogatory terms, such as "Fucking family's of dumb ass people". I simply responded with terms that your dumb ass could relate to (to borrow one of your phrases).

Anyway, outlaws who don't live their lives by other people's rules have earned a great deal more respect than obedient pussies who allow the written words of others to govern their actions.

Ahora,

One thing I agree with you completely is that a big chunk of immigrants, illegal or otherwise, do look at us Americans with contempt. I know for a fact that even though some of them reap the benefits of our economy they take us for chumps. Something that i learned while researching a paper on immigration is that even though many are dying to get over here, they never completely give up the idea that their latin, catholic, "family oriented" culture is superior to our anglo, protestant, "individual oriented" society. Kind of Ironic is it not?

But then there are others, like my chilanga, who do not see Mexico though rose colored glasses.

Oh well. As I said before, we can all agree that Mexican panocha es lo mejor.

It's all bullshit. Why take it so seriously????

Innocent

Hey Batster,

My girl is a chilanga, too. Do you make it down there often?

For guys who are supposedly married to latinas there seems to be little understanding of issues that apply to Mexican immigrants.

First, it's VERY difficult for the average Mexican to get a visa to visit the U.S. They have to show that they have money in the bank (believe the amount is around $5000 U.S.) have a good job and/or be able to show that they own property. In addition there's a HUGE amount of people applying for these visas.

Regarding WIC, this is open to low income parents with kids under 5. A parent will receive approximately $50 in milk, cereal, eggs etc once a month. Nobodies getting rich off it.

For most types of welfare if you don't have an SS# your not eligible. The vast majority of people receiving welfare were born in this country.

I don't quite understand the argument that, "Many of the people we have here illegally are only qualified for low income jobs which means that when they get pregnant or sick they need assistance which is welfare". It sounds as if your implying that if you have a low paying unskilled job you should be denied the same benefits that someone with a higher paying job takes for granted (sick leave, maternity leave, etc).

I'd say the Mexicans that are coming here to work are doing far more for the American economy then Americans are doing for the Mexican economy when they go there to screw putas.

I do agree that TJ is a dump.

You are wrong. If 2 parents are illegal but the wife is in the u.s pregnant the fetus/newborn is considered a us citizen and therefore allows parents to get welfare for the baby including food medical and health. As far as WIC is concerned they get alot more than that just in formula and $50 to $100 a month times thousands really add up. The reason it is so hard for good mexican people to get in this country is because of all the people that are abusing the U.S now. I am stating that if you are not in this country legally you do not deserve benefits from any government program period. My girlfriend never knew what I was talking about but now that she has been here for almost 2 years she sgrees and sees exactly what I see. All her family cousins etc in this country are here illegaly and they all work and they all keep having babies and get welfare and she is disgusted with them. She also says she is tired of people breaking the law to get here and then jusp abusing and complaining about how bad it is here. Her exact words to me today were why do they complain if they are making 40 bucks a week in mexico then come here to make 200 a week? A friend of mine owns a janitorial/security company most of the janitorial side are from mexico probably 50% illegal. He pays them $8.50 an hour to start which is better than any company in san diego and he was surprised to see that at a christmas party he threw for all of them they all showed up with union t shirts and complained about their wages.
Ungrateful fucks if you ask me.

My experience dealing with illegals and yours has been very different. It is true that the parents of a child born in this country are entitled to welfare. I'm sure there are some who abuse the system but I don't believe most risk there life coming to this country with the intention of living off welfare. Everyone I know came here to better their life and the lives of there families back home. I think the fact that so many people (of all persuasions) are on welfare has more to do with trying to raise a family on minimum wage.

Toehead,

You are dead center on target. I know a hell of a lot of immigrants, and the vast majority of them work their asses off, contribute far more than they take, and are goddamn good people. The more I hear immigrant bashers complain about their presence, the more obvious it is that they are motivated by their own insecurities, self loathing, and racism.

Listen asshole you throw that word racism around pretty fast. I have said nothing against any race of people at all. I am talking about criminals period and that is what they are plain and simple. I still have yet to hear anyone take me up on my challenge and come to a welfare office or clinic in san diego and prove me wrong

We can go in circles forever here. I think everyone is closer on this issue than we think. We are just all looking at it from certain angles.

A couple points:

Most immigrants are not scumbags. Most are good people. I do not agree with ahora that a high percentage scum bags. They are just doing what eery one tries to do in life, better their situation.

There are alot of undereducated immigrants but I have met illegals with Masters and even doctorates. they are all just ttying to improve their station in life.

I do agree that there is a criminal element that comes over and that they are scumbabgs. We just disagree on percentages.

I think we all agree that the Governments immigration policy is screwed up. It does not reward good people who follow the law. It encourages high risk activity that puts alot of people in danger. And yes I think our immigration polices are xenophobic and a little racist.

We all agree that Mexico needs to do more to create opportunity insid eMexico and not use immigration as an escape valve for their economy.

We also all love to screw mexican women. I lived in Europe for a few years. I have lived in the states and now about 5 years in Mexico. I have never found sweeter panocha.

Kendricks, I worked in Guadalajara on and off 96-98. I lived full time down in the DF from 98 to 2001. I hooked up with my chilanga there. She was the controller of the factory I was consulting. We go down every couple of months. I am going down again the 15th of June. My ex wife is from Guadalajara. But she grew up in the states and that is where I met her. Her parents were illegal immigrants. They are all naturalized now. Her father owns a construction company that is liscenced in two states. Not exactly scumbags.

The offer still stands. Any one who wants to discuss immigration over a beer in TJ just let me know. Please no bitch slapping. I am a fragile sort of guy.

It seems that former immigrants are often the biggest bashers. I've noticed this in recent elections. It's pretty obvious that the now respectable immigrant, especially second generation offspring of illegal parents, now wants to distance themselves from being associated with the newly arrived immigrants by bashing. This phenomenon is probably the only thing keeping the hispanics from taking over completely.

The illegals that I know, including several family members, would never willingly have any contact with any government agency and therefor have never applied for any state or federal benefits other than emergency medical care.

My personal experience is that a large percentage of illegals are working with fake social security cards and are therefor paying social security and other taxes for which they will never see any benefits. Additionally, many of the benefit issues are issues of basic humanitarianism. We really only have three choices: (1) Rigidly control the border and hunt down illegals already here in the streets and ship them back like gestapo, (this will never happen), (2) Let them stay but make them second class people without the most basic advantages of subsistance medical care, or possibilities of basic nutrition and education for their children, (after all they aren't really good people anyway...), or (3) exercise basic human decency and charity and treat people as people and let the government control the border and immigration, or not, just like the government controls, or doesn't control, speeding, mongering, drugs, alcohol, tax evasion, or numerous other aspects of government with which the government simply doesn't do a very good job.

I'm certainly not going to be the one to cast the first stone. I love my hispanic brothers and sisters, even the illegal ones, and especially their daughters.

A Plan 3 type of guy,

Scarus

I wish I were able to go to TJ this weekend so that I could have something better to post about then these off-topic topics.......

Ahora's right. I'm tired of hearing all of these liberal excuses for immigrants taking advantage of the system. Ever hear of a Korean or Laotian or Chinese or Vietnamese or Chaldean illegal aliens taking advantage of the system. NO. Never. This applies strictly to immigrants in the Western hemisphere, especially Mexico. This is not an issue of racism. Quit using that term as a trump card for gaining superiority in your arguments. It's a sophmoric attempt at argument leverage.

Well it doesn't look as if anyone is going to take Ahora007 up on his exciting offer to drive down to San Diego and spend the day with him sitting in a Welfare office asking people their status. I think we're missing out, besides being able to hang with Ahora I hear afterwards he might head over to a WIC center and complain that their giving out just WAY too much baby formula, which could lead to fat illegal alien babies and later obesity (making them even MORE of a drain on the economy..if such a thing is possible).

It is absolutley racism and xenophobia. why aren't you guys railing away at professional welfare recipients across the country?

There is a problem with parasites, who come in all races. Indeed, one of the biggest parasite problems we have is useless government agencies.
What draws the big emotional reaction, though, is scapegoating a racial group without political power. Giving the masses a common enemy. Immigrant bashers are nothing more than ignorant, racist dupes. If the truth hurts, that is your problem, not mine.

Batster:

I have been to mexico City a few times, but never longer than a couple weeks at a shot. Living there must have been pretty interesting, to say the least.

Scarus:

Right on on both of your posts. "Option one" will never happen because immigrant workers are too important to our economy. "Option two" will hopefully never happen, so long as our courts keep the assholes in check.

As I have said previously, it really is pretty obvious why some "people" fly into such a rage about something as petty as immigration status...

I have spent about 20% of my life living outside of the United States. It certainly gives me a different perspective on what our country does right and what it does wrong. There is no better country in the world, but part of what makes it great is that we can point out its defficiencies and call a spade a spade. US immigration policy is fucked up. Period.

Someone said that it is only Mexican immigrants that abuse the system and are on welfare. I guess they should check the welfare offices in Detroit , Boston, and New York. They will see it is not just Mexicans. And what about the Russians? Jesus Christ, if there were ever a criminal class of immigrants, its gotta be the Russians.

But it is not the immigrant that causes the welfare problem. It is the Multicultural, Politically Correct, Liberal, Government Agencies that allow, in fact create, this abuse. They even publish their phamplets in a zillion languages explaining just how freeloaders can milk the system. The real blame is with the government. Not the immigrant.

As far as living in Mexico City. It was fanfuckingtastic. I lived one block off Reforma between the Angel de Independencia and Chapultepec. I was a 5 minute walk from the Zona Rosa a 30 minute walk from the Zocalo, a 3 minute cab ride to Polanco. I was in Panocha heaven until mi chilangita me embrujo. She has her grips in me and good.

Estas chilangas son bien encantadoras, si, batster? Eso entiendo, pero muy, muy bien....

You would be surprised how many people from mexico get their passports taken away at the border because it is found they have received welfare and medical in the past. Debate that if you want but I see it firsthand. I am a racist? LOL all my girlfriends have been hispanic, I donate money and 30 hours a month at 2 mexican orphanages and my kids are all half mexican. You may as I have said a million times before say I am racist but you would be closer accusing me of a classist. Funny how you seem to think everyone coming is just out to improve their lives and I agree. Problem is that alot of them our doing it at our expense. I know I see it everyday so you can argue alot about what you don't know but it still does not make it right.

That is a red herring. The issue is not that some mexicans come to the US, work, and apply for benefits. The issue is that they are a net benefit overall, most of them are here to work, and I have no problem with a hard working, low paid laborer getting some food stamps or using the medical system.

As far as not being a racist because you like to fuck mexican women, that is a total joke. Christ, many slave owners liked to fuck their black slaves, too, and many had children from slaves. You strike out again.

As far as racism v. classism, you seem much more angry about brown welfare recipients (working or not) than you do white or black professional welfare parasites. This is very damning. In any event, a classist is not a step up from a racist, so you are still not making any headway.

Everyone seems focused on how much illegal immigrants cost this country. True, some seek welfare and do things that we look down on. But consider that without these illegals, we would be paying a whole hell of a lot more than $1 for a head of lettuce. Who do you think picks our crops, paints our property, butchers our cattle, and do all the nasty things that we hard working Americans are above doing? And at a cost that allows us to go out and spend our disposable income on non-essentials. This country would be in a completely different economic situation (and not for the better) without these illegals.

Yea they don't pay SS or taxes. But just try to find someone to spend a day in the fields picking produce at the rate that these illegals are charging. Hell, I say give them benefits because in the end, they pay more (as a group) for it than we do.

The problem is that illegal immigrants are a net benefit to the FEDERAL government, because they pay income tax and social security tax which they will never collect. However, when they go on welfare or need medical services and have no money, they become a HUGE drain on certain county governments, like SD and LA county.

One simple solution to this, now that the border crosser cards are scannable would be to set up scanners at the exits of the US, so the border crossers could scan themselves out. If they have exceeded the 72 hours they are allowed without an addittional permit, their cards could be cancelled and retained.

Another solution would be for the INS to actually enforce the law in the restuarant and agricultural business.

As to Ahora007, you work for the Federal government. You must know that if the Government REALLY wanted to stop illegal immigration, they could tomorrow. It continues because the government, and a large percentage of your fellow citizens, especcially millionare business owners don't want it to stop.