Powerslave, both federal and local governments are supposed to exist for the benefit of the people. As Xhoner and others have pointed out, since immigrants are a net benefit to us all, as individuals (whether we are smart enough to realize it or not), out of context assertions that immigrants are a drain on county services are entirely irrelevant.

Thus, there is no problem to solve, other than dishonest politicians scapegoating hardworking immigrants for their own failures.

They are not irrelevant to the taxpayers in the affected county. I am no immigrant basher, but the intelligent person looks at both sides of any question. The reality is that there has to be some way to A) spread the COSTS of immigration among all the nation (and not just the affected counties) just like the benefits are spread among everyone, and B) deal with the minority of immigrants that are slugs and maggots.
I am not sure how to solve A, my solution to B would be to immediatly deport anyone who is undocumented who solicits aid on behalf of there US Citizen offspring.

I'm a taxpayer in an affected county, and it is irrelevant to me! They are a net benefit - you guys are getting all worked up over nothing.

Whow! What a discussion. Very interesting reading. I wish you all would stop picking on Kendricks. Save your ranting about the racist comments and start calling your Congressmen. Seems to me we presently are in the best time right now to make some needed changes in the INS policies considering the 9-11 problems and the fact that Bush may be the one President in a long time who wants to improve the lot of illegal residents in the US. Those with the political power need to know the experiences, and opinions of us on this board. Hombre, can any of these discussions be edited and forwarded to the people who make the laws?

Federal employees do not contribute to SStax but do collect it Or so I was made to believe --
Can a Fed employee confirm this ??

I dont complain about white or black or brown people getting welfare period kendricks. As a matter of fact I have never once spoken of any race of people. I am talking about illegal aliens period. They have 0 right to anything here. They are criminals and should be treated as such. People who got hrough the correct legal process have my respect not the assholes that think rules dont apply for them. As far as we need them we dont. We could always take people who come here legally. The problem is once they are given amnesty they almost always leave the farms and get other jobs opening another hole for more illegals to come over. It needs to stop period. You are not privy to the information I see all day. I know statistics that you don't. You will never know as much on this subject as I do. I deal with it every fucking day

City Dude Federal employees DO pay social Security Tax, and collect it. However Employees who were hired before like 1980 or so are pare of a different retirement cystem called CSRS, and did/do not pay the tax, neither will they collect it.
Some state and municipal employees (like me) do not pay social security because we have our own retirement, however I will collect social security anyway because I have enough years worked from other jobs to qualify

Some of you guys are far too caught up in playing by someone else's rule book. I don't care about the rule book. If someone is here to work, great. I don't care how they got here. The line in the sand means nothing to me, and has no moral authority.

As far as the "correct legal process" goes, the deck is stacked in favor of those who already have money and property. The guy trying to break out of desperate poverty doesn't stand a chance, unless he makes his OWN breaks. This is what I respect, not mindless obedience to beaurocratic procedures.

So why not fight to make changes in their own countries? Why don't we oen the borders and let everyone in. Yeah that would be realy smart. 1 thing no one has mentioned yet is the evere shortage of housing we have in california now. Rent has doubled in the last 5 years. California has way to many poepe already.

Most of you all sound like fairly intelligent guys. It's hard to believe that you guys feel that there is still hope for soveriegn Americans to control their destiny via elected representatives or through the illusion of voting.

You guys are killin' me...

PowerSlave: Thanks for clarifying a mis-statement
that someone let me believe to be true.

Yeah, Dazed, don't vote or participate in the political process. It is much easier to sit around and whine.

Dazed's point, I believe, is that "participating" in the political process is a sham. The Demopublicans and the Republocrats have a lock on the system, and the money that flows into the system. They use this money to conduct studies to determine what you want to hear, and then hire slick PR men to produce propaganda regurgitating what they believe you want to hear. Whoever does this most successfully gets the majotiry in congress and control of the executive offices (with the added benefit of appointing justices to the high courts). Then, this power is used to repay the source of the $$$ that made their electoral success possible.

So make sure you get out there and vote! Me? I'll be voting for Matt Hooker this election. Not that it will do any good, but not voting tends to make them think you are content with the status quo, and voting for those other assholes just encourages them...

http://www.matthooker.com/

High rent isn't caused by illegals who don't make enough money to rent a cardboard box. High rent is caused by our fellow americans (myself included) rushing from the cold boring places like U freakin' tah to Cali. What impact does an illegal making $500/month have on rent increasing from $800 to $1400 a month? Your argument lacks substance. The cheap labor allows me to pay these crazy rental rates because their labor keeps the price of everything else low.

Even if you could tax them, how much do you think you could get? Does anyone know how much income tax is paid on a $12K yearly income (assuming a $1000/month income)? I don't know but I don't think it's very much.

Ahora007, you are "privy" to information that I don't know. Tell me, what's the average yearly income that an illegal immigrant makes? What is the average hourly wage of an illegal immigrant? How many illegals are here and what's the percentage who work and the percentage who are on welfare? I think the reason my opinion is different then yours is because you know this information and I don't.

By the way what are be arguing about? It's fun but I'd like to know so I can fit my arguments a bit better Is it
(1) Illegals are bad for America, hmm-kay
(2) It's not PC to say bad things about illegals,
(3) Immigrantion policy sucks,
(4) California is too fucking costly and all you assholes need to sale me your homes and move somewhere not near me (I hear people in Wyoming are reel friendly to strangers, especially ones who recently lived in Ca).

I have to hand it to Kendrick and Ahora. This is one of the most active threads I have seen in my short experience. Nothing like to Opposite Poles to spark discussion.

Hombre may have been exasperated with all this cause it is off topic but it is obvious there is alot of interest in the subject.

I agree that illegal immigration has little to do with high rents. High real estate prices in California have more to do with excesive government regulation and environmental policies than anything else. Illegal immigration effects demand primarily in low rent areas which is only a part of the overall market and represents only a portion of overall demand.

The one thing everyone has agreed on is that Mexican panocha reigns supreme. And I like banging them on both sides of the border, immigration status aside.

The thought that Immigrants only make $500 a month is wrong now. Most immigrants in California at least are making at least minimum wage and above. The reason for that is if the bussinesses are raided by immigration they can normally get away with showing the INS that they have copies of SSN cards and Permanant or resident alien cards which almost every illegal has as they are so easy to come by. However if they show that they are paying $3.00 an hour it goes a long way to rpove that the employer had knowledge that this person was working illegaly. As far as higher rents do to more people are concerned yes they do take up lower income apts which in turn forces people in lower income to move to middle etc. Illegal immigrants also have a higher household income as they are usually more that 1 or 2 working adults in the house. As for the average income of illegal immigrants here I answered that. As for how many we have in the U.s it is in the millions but hard to keep track of as so many come here and they dont exactly check in. One stat that is exact is that 63% of the illegal immigrants in California texas and arizona receive some kind of government assistance IE welfare, medical, food stamps. It is easy for us to be persuaded that the poor illegals living in cardboard boxes in the hills are working for a dollar a day but it is not so. They do have some immigrant encampments but very few and they are generaly people who have been here a short time. Another problem besides illegal immigrants is we have a ton of people living here and working here with passports which is a whole other problem

It is true that most undocumented workers are paid minimum wage - it is also true that their employers comply with withholding laws, which results in undocumented workers paying greater than their fair share of taxes - as their returns are not processed (due to the innacuracy of their SSNs), they do not receive the refunds to which they are entitled. Another windfall for the US government, in other words.

As far as rents go, immigration status has nothing to do with this. If US immigration laws were reformed, and sufficient work visas given out, immigrants would still need places to live.

As far as the stats you posted, can you provide a link to a reputable source?

That "stat" has to be bogus because if we knew that "63%" were getting benefits that they legally shouldn't...why are they?

63% on assistance, wow, do you know the percentage that works, gets taxes withheld and never get any back at the end of the year? I see why illegals would be paid at least the minimum wage, that makes sense.

The $500/month figure was pulled from my ass. I have no idea what they make. Do you feel that illegal immigrants in general make less money then people of legal working status? Include the cost of no worker representation, bad working conditions, can't complain to OSHA, get fired or injured, good luck in finding anyone to help (is work still like this for illegals)? The difference is the cost to the illegals to live here. That's the information I was trying to find. If that difference is greater then the cost to tax payers for taking care of illegals then there shouldn't be any issue.

How does a statisticien (sp?) figure that 63% of illegals are on assistance when they don't know how many illegals there are in this country "as so many come here and they dont exactly check in".

There is a hugh gap between "low income" appartments and what is offered in the market. In San Diego, the rental vacancy rate is somewhere around 3%. I think a healthy market is suppose to be around 8-10%. Most new appartments being built are being offered at over $1000/month and are considered luxury appartments. There in lies the problem. I understand your references to supply/demand markets for appartments but I wonder if the increased demand by illegals or the lack of a new supply of affordable appartments is the primary problem with the housing market. Changing either factor would change the housing market. You can remove all illegals from the housing market and there still wouldn't be any affordable appartments.

Iluvputas the reason they are getting benefits is because of a loophole that lets them get welfare if the baby was born in the U.S. The stats come from a estimation of how many illegals we have here. Kendricks we both agree that we need to have immigration laws redone. The problem with you is you think the people that are here should be allowed to stay if they came illegally and I think we should take the people that have no criminal records and have not commited crimes and have gone through the right process. As far as the people that work and dont get their taxes back well if they were legal they would get them back. That was their choice.

Hey Ahora

I have been reading this thread all along and I agree with parts of everything but not all. Everybody has their right to an opinion as to the free speech amendment. I agree with you to the part of the criminals and lowlifes who are here illegally but there are two sides to this record also. There are a lot of good hard working people who come here illegally because they want to better there lives and their opportunities as they have none where they are from. I have lived in Mexico, I spend a lot of time there and have a Mexican GF and an apartment in Nuevo Laredo in addition to my house in Corpus Christi.

My GF went through all of the proper channels to obtain her visa and was denied it today as she owned no property. She has a nice place to live in the US here with me but Uncle Sam won't let her. Yet he gives billions of dollars a year to US born trash that live in projects and listen to that disgusting RAP MUSIC bullshit which should be illegal. What is different about the trash born in the US versus the people born in Mexico. At least the Mexicans will work unlike the punks who probally wont see the age of 30 due to gang BS or drugs, yet they are legal.

Bottom line everybody has a right to his opinion but I think the majority of the illegal immigrants on welfare are much better than the U.S. citizens on welfare. I am not trying to pick a fight nor am I trying to offend anyone but I do know this. I ran a ship in Mexico for 3 years with an all Mexican crew. The Mexican seamen made a weekly salary of about what an American seaman made in a day. That same Mexican seaman did more work in a day than the American seaman did in a week.

I will never say that the Mexicans aren't deserving of any benefits because they are not legal here in the U.S. when we have legal drug dealers and gang members recieving the same benefits. You have a point but they are using the benefits as they have no choice. Leroy is using the benefits because he has rights to them and he can sit on his ass due to the fact that he be a U.S. citizen and he got rights. Explain this to me how he is better than the poor Mexican who came her illegally to keep from starving. I'm all ears !

Exactly, Beavis. Why people scream about Mexican berry pickers who work their ass off for a pittance, and then get food stamps in order to scrape by, yet have no problem with lazy-ass Americans make career out of living off the dole is a mystery. Actually, it's not that big a mystery at all...

I'm sorry to hear that about your girlfriend. It's not surprising, unfortunately, but it is sad. Without showing property ownership, cash reserves, and steady employment, getting a visa is pretty much impossible - which is another reason why the people who talk about why people down and out and hungry for work should "play by the rules" are such a joke.

If it is racist to criticize immigration, does tham make me bad if I say THERE ARE TOO MANY POTENTIAL FUCKING ARAB TERRORISTS in this country? Should we do anything about it, or just sit back and celebrate the next episode of mass murder as a "valid expression of different cultural values"?

I agree all of those Fucking Sand XXXers can get a visa because they have plenty of money but a poor Mexican who don't have shit and will work his ass off for minimum wage has to catch hell from people who support losers who listen to "Puff Daddy" or whatever the fuck his name is now and live in the projects and sell crack. America is a great country but it has a fucked up operating system.

I am thankful that I am a U.S. citizen and have the opportunity to work in a good paying job but you can bet your sweet corncobs that as soon as I am able to retire I will provide another space for one of the wetbacks as I will be living south of the border.

For the lazy ass Mexicans in California all you have to do is send them to Texas as the Texas Mexicans will whip there ass and send them home.

Do what I said before. Send Mexico a welfare recipient for every Mexican immigrant we accept.

Powerslave, you miss the point.

There are many valid reasons to hate the towelhead cocksuckers who are here to destroy us and our way of life. This hatred is valid and rational.

But hating Mexican workers WHO ARE A NET FUCKING BENEFIT to our country is irrational and stupid.

See the difference?

One other thing I would like to add to this thread is this. If you go meet a girl in another country and you fall in love and decide you want to spend the rest of your life with her here are your options.

1) You can do all of the required paperwork in the visa lottery and if you get her pregnant by the time your granchild is of legal age you might get a visa for her.

2) You can hire one of those lowlife immigration lawyers and pay this son of a bitch between $3,000.00 to $6,000.00 and he can get her a visa in 6 months.

This I am speaking from experience as I tried to do this. Not with my current GF but with another before we finally decided it wasn't possible.

Somebody please explain to me why we can't do it without paying this son of a bitch lawyer his money. Actually I think son of a bitch is too good of a term for a lawyer or Government Worker but, Beavis has been there and done that.

I am not picking on anybody but I will stand up for my Mexicans til the end as I have never had the treatment from Ciudadanos de los Estados Unidos como los Mexicanos. Yet if you are poor it won't work.

The United States is a great country but the people who decide what is best for us and the people around us are ASSHOLES who are very one way. I won't turn Clubhombre into a war zone but anyone who wants to argue this please feel free to put me in my place.

I thought I'd try and clear up some confusion (or add to it) regarding how much money your average "unskilled" Mexican illegal is making BASED ON WHAT I'VE OBSERVED. First about half (generally most of the men) have bogus social security numbers and are paying taxes. A few even filed at the end of the year expecting to get money back, apparently they thought they'd paid for REAL social security numbers. Most make minimum wage which works out to a little under a $1000 a month if they're imployed full time. The men generally either work the fields or do construction (basic labor). Field work can actually pay fairly well depending on how productive you are. Its possible to make as much as $700 a week picking, say, lettuce where your paid by how many boxes you bring in, of course this is NOT year round and IS back breaking work. The average would be closer to $350 a week here as opposed to a high of around $17 a day in Mexico, which may only last for around 6 weeks then it's "nada" for the rest of the year. Most of the ladies are working under the table and do house cleaning or domestic work. Of course none get sick leave or overtime or have any kind of medical benefits, if they become sick or injured their screwed. Everyone I've seen sends money home to their families, either their wife or parents. Generally it's around 20% of what they make. I'm sure someone with more skills could make more money so don't flame me saying "my ex worked at this job and made X amount of $$ so your figures are all wrong". This is what I've observed and is not a "scientific study" by any stretch.

Personally I feel if your going to get worked up about something there's plenty of other issues out there that cost the average american far more and only benefit the bank accounts of the wealthiest..who are more then happy to exploit the rest of us.

Ahora, I was kind of following along. I really didn't agree with too much of what you had to say but you seemed like you were semi-intelligent, at least until you said that you disagreed with Kendricks because he thinks that "the people that are here should be allowed to stay if they came illegally" and that you think that "we should take the people that have no criminal records and have not commited crimes and have gone through the right process."

This is absurd. All rational debate regarding this issue starts out with the premise that we're stuck with the ones already here and we need to come up with some better policy for the future.

Undocumented aliens are easily found. All we have to do is run identification checks at the schools or hopitals. No rational person however would ever suggest that we start rounding up the illegals. I guarantee you that you have never heard any politician or, even anyone with half a brain, suggest that we can get rid of the millions and millions of illegals already here. Such a suggestion would be political and economic suicide. What, should we just start loading up the cattle cars?

And yes, "millions and millions" is a very general, obviously estimated number, but 63% is not an estimate, it is a very specific, as you say, exact, number. Cite your source!!

I have a part time tax business in San Diego and about 30% of my clients are Mexicans. Only about 5% are illegal aliens. Most of these non-professional people, illegal or legal earn between $7,000 to 25,000 a year and the higher income earners are supporting 3 to 5 dependents.
I get referrals from this group because, I speak Spanish, and I do not over charge. But the real job I have with them is to convince them to even file. Once they get a refund, they send me their friends. One night I went to do a tax return in this little run down part of El Cajon and I ended up doing 25 tax returns of others living in the same apartment complex. Not one of these people got welfare, and even if they could qualify for it I think they would be afraid to apply.

Nearly all of the welfare clients I know are about 30-40 years old and have lived all their life in the US. I hate them and if I do their taxes the majority want me to cheat so they can get the earned income credit. I never cheat because I figure they are the ones making all the rest of us pay more. I charge them all that I can get away with if they try to pull that bull shit. Illegal residents or residents of Mexico working in the US do not qualify for this gift of money.

I even go to Tijuana to do some income taxes for some Mexican business men who own a company in Mexico but want to report the income to the US so that they have US tax returns to show if and when they have a chance to get immigration papers. These guys are reporting six figure income. I think its stupid, But they called me.

These tax returns in TJ have been my escape with my wife. She thinks I was doing about 30 tax returns in TJ late at night this year when in fact it was only 10. The other twenty...do I have to tell you guys? D...uh.

In defense of the 63% on assistance stat., this figure can be determined without knowning the number of illegals in this country. By random sampling you probably could get an accurate estimation. However, one statistic in a vacuum of information can be very misleading. To properly weigh the 63% statistic it would be critical to know other info like the percentage of employment, the cost of being illegal (ie. no overtime, no sickleave, no tax refund, etc.), cost of illegals on assistance vs. total cost of welfare, percentage of "legal" low income workers on assistance, and so on and so forth.

In the end, an employed illegal immigrant contributes more to this country than he/she takes from it.

Beavis the reason your girlfriend was denied was because she did not have enough income and they make those rules to keep her from coming here then maybe getting dumped by you and having to get welfare etc. There are alot of hard working people that have come here illegaly but the problem is tey came here illegay and we have no idea who they are. Plus the fact that everytime we have amnesty it does us no good and only brings more illegals over here with amnesty as an incentive. Most illegals that receive welfare in the U.S do so out of greed not because they are starving. Welfare should not be given to anyone period except for a dire emergency for a few months. Illegals deserve nothing as we did not invite them to come here. Toehead most illegals have more that 1 income also and as far as taxes taken out well we are in the U.S and if they were legal they would be getting benefits. Scarus you obviously dont know what I do for work so I will just say my 63% number was not pulled out of my ass. Also polititions do not try to get rid of all the illegals because it is not pc. They are deporting people though that they do catch. What about INS recently going on the trolley and checking ID'S for illegals? We should not be stuck with them as we have laws for a reason and they are just laughing at us. What about staying in their own country and making it better instead of allways crying victim and coming to suck the U.S dry. Nayarit you could not possibly know if the illegals are on welfare because they have no SSN to give welfare dept. Most illegals that get welfare are working which is exactly my point they are greedy. Xhohner an employed illegal immigrant is still illegal period.

While I NEVER thought I'd agree with Ahora007 about anything, his "an employed illegal immigrant is still illegal period" comment is true.

ONE amnesty makes sense. After that, MUCH harsher penalties for breaking our laws. Otherwise, it's 'If I can keep from being caught for X amount of time I'll get amnesty'. Some incentive to follow the process.

After all, if someone will break laws to get into this country, what makes you think they'll follow them once they're here?

I have agreed all along with the idea that our immigration policy sucks and needs to be revised.

I agree that illegal immigration IS a problem.

I agree that SOME bad people come over.

I believe that contrary to Ahoras vehement assertion that Illegals are scumbags, MOST illegals are just looking to imrpove their situation and are not bad people. But the situation they are in makes them criminals.

Bonvvnt has a good point which I made very early in the thread. The moment an immigrant breaks the law and comes in illegaly it has the effect of lowering a barrier and breeds more disrespect for the law. But the PROBLEM is not the immigrant, IT IS POOR IMMIGRATION POLICY that forces decent people into bad situations. Until the demand for labor goes away, immigration WILL continue. We can not stop it. So we should form policies that MANAGE it and our policies do a crappy job of that.

Planet wide people scramble to improve their economic condition. Economics almost always is the root cause for immigration. The only other reasons are religious and political persecution.

Ahora says"what about staying in their own country and making it better instead of always crying victim and coming to suck the US dry". Thats what they said in the early part of the last century also, by the way.

But the reality is that they can stay in their country and STARVE. I guess that is a good solution, eh. Starve the scumbag fuckers to death and then they will not come up here. If Ahora has some good ideas about how the poorest people in Mexico can change their system, I would like to hear them. The US need to start paying attention to Mexico and not treating it like a backwater. If the US would have actively engaged Mexico thirty years ago we may not have the immigration problem we have today.

Batster, have you ever considered the possibility that US foreign policy is *designed* to keep Mexico down, in order to guarantee us a steady supply of undocumented workers to exploit?

Ahora007,

So your argument is not whether illegal immigrants are good or bad for the US, but because they broke the law they should be shipped back to their original country irregardless of their contributions to the US economy. Zero-tolerance applied to illegal immigration. The world is a much simpler place once zero-tolerance is applied. Unfortunately, zero-tolerance has never worked. Maybe we should be having a discussion about zero-tolerance instead of immigration issues?

By the way, I disagree with you that no one invited them. Every business owner that hires an illegal immigrant is sending an invitation. How do I as a business owner determine if my work force has illegals? Because I can pay them less than a living wage, maintain poor work conditions and they keep coming back. Every consumer that buys from these businesses is sending an invitation.

Kendricks, come on, you are way too intelligent to believe in these great conspiracies about how the US is out to screw everyone else. The Mexicans don't need our help keeping themselves down, they keep themselves down quite nicely by tolerating a level of corruption that would make most people gag.
I am all in favor of what Bush was talking about last summer of a greatly expanded number of visas for Mexican workers in the US. I also know many people, both Mexican and Brazilian in San Diego, who are quite illegal, and yet are a benefit to our society in that they work hard, pay taxes and receive no benefits. I myself have worked illegally in Mexico. However what you seem (correct me if I am wrong) to be saying is that we should have a totally open door policy for Mexicans. If we do that we will have 20 million of them crossing the border tomorrow. And if we are going to do it for Mexicans, why not for Irish or Salvadoreans, or Indians, or Ragheads, and pretty soon the country will fill up with assholes.

On an aside about Mexicans being their own worst enemies, I have NEVER heard of a police officer or border patrolmen mistreating a Mexican on the levels they are mistreated by their own police before leaving the country or the mistreatment they receive from the field supervisors (100% hispanic) once they start working on a farm in the US.
Also, fucked up though INS is, they have not and will never rip off a Mexican on the level that immigration lawyers (99.85% hispanic) will do.

I dont think all illegals are scumbags but I do see the stats and I know that the reason they are illegal is because they would never make it here due to a risk/liability factor. Some do come to improve their situation but the problem is it is 63% of the time at our expense. Very few people in mexico are actually starving. I have alot of friends in mexico and they all do fine and are hard workers. I have no problem with immigrants that come over illegally and I think we should let a certain controlled number in but as soon as they get arrested or apply for public assistance they should be booted out period. At that time they become a drain on our society not a benefit. Plus the added fact that we will know who they are. One last thing is this : I never hear you guys complain about the way we are treated by Mexico.

Powerslave:

As a practical matter, as the world is currently structured, totally open borders are not realistic. This does not mean that we should let undocumented workers within our borders suffer preventable death or deformity by denying them medical care, as some people seem to advocate.

Ahora:

I love the way I am treated by Mexico. Reasonably priced beautiful hookers, available with no hassle or strings attached. I wish the USA would give equal respect to my "pursuit of happiness".

Ahora,

I have said I agree with you on alot of points. And to a certain point I am just playing Devils advocate. But I do think that this is an issue that is too complex to put in such simple terms.

If you think that the law we have in place is functional and will work and we just need the Mexicans to respect that law, I think you are not looking at the real causes and effects. And I don't see you offering many solutions.

Yes, maybe there are not million actually physically starving( there are more than you would think. Particulary in the indigenous populations. Yes physically starving)it is a figure of speech. But if you think things are not bad in Mexico, it is because you never went too far off the Blacktop. There is extreme poverty all over the country. I have seen it. I have been in 20 of the 32 states in the Mexican Republic and have lived here full time now since 98. And I have seen poverty that wrenches your guts out. And believe me there are people in miserable poverty 10 minutes from San Diego.

The simple fact is that anybody with the slightest ambition wants to get out of poverty. It is human nature. There is a very intelligent Economist at Stanford named Thomas Sowell who has dedicated a large part of his career to studying immigration. His work indicates something the opposite of what you contend. He maintains that the most ambitious and entreprenurial leave their countries and emmigrate. If there is sufficient opportunity at home they don't emmigrate. If they are already well off they usually dont emmigrate. Furthermore when there is no economic demand in the target country, they stop emigrating to that country. The laziest people in any given population stay home. Why? Because it is easier to stay home. There is no risk. The gist of your comments is that the laziest people come to the states illegally. I don't buy it.

I would really like to see the actual source for the statistic that 63% go on welfare. Or is it a top secret source? Based on all my contact with Illegals, I find it hard to believe.

I will give you this. I agree 100% that if they commit a crime( other than imigrate illegaly) or go on welfare, they should have their ass shipped home. I don't believe much in welfare at all. It is contrary to productive societies and it saps the human spirit. So why don't we reform welfare to shut it out? Maybe because a whole shit load of goverment workers who administer welfare would be out of work. But I digress.

The only real solution to the problem is for the US to aggresively prosecute the businesses that hire illegals thus cutting demand. At the same time provide more opportunity for those who immigrate illegaly( make it easier to come as a family unit for example, speed up the process, etc) The third front would be to actively engage Mexico in creating more opportunity inside Mexico.
If there are sufficient jobs in Mexico immigration will taper off.

I do not agree with Kendricks that there is a conspiracy on the part of The US government to keep Mexico poor just so we have continued cheap labor. But I do think the government has not done enough to help our number 2 trading partner and neighbor. IN that aspect we are definitely guilty. Our Policies have always been Eurocentric. In the meantime some of our biggest problems for the future are brewing right here in Mexico.

The Mexican government HAS used immigration as a safety valve for their society. And it is time the US forced them to do something about it internally inside Mexico.

As far as complaining about how we are treated in Mexico. I am a legal resident in Mexico. I pay taxes etc. I could go on forever about the bullshit Mexico pulls on Americans. And it does suck. But this thread was about illegal immigration, not Mexicos treatment of Americans. And Mexicos fuck ups do not mean the US should have fuck ups. And our Immigration policy is fucked up.

My invitation still stands to anybody who wants to talk immigration and mexican pussy over a cold one in TJ. Just let me know. I am here every day. I am thirst every day, and I like looking at mexican Panocha every day.

Batster,

If one were to accept that 1) illegal immigration from Mexico is truly a problem, and 2) illegal immigration is caused by economic problems within Mexico, then why do you think that 1) The US *hasn't* taken seirous steps to stop illegal immigration, and 2) the US *hasn't* done more to lift Mexico's economy out of the sewer?

As a bonus question, if you are not happy with the way you are treated in Mexico, why do you live there?

Kendricks no one says illegals should be denied emergency medical care. I never said that. However if anyone comes into this country and decides to have kids or gets a headache themn they need to do what we all do and pay. Baster I have offered a solution and that would be to boot out any illegals that have received assistance from the government welfare etc and also any that have been arrested for a misdameanor or greater. Then issue temporary work permits and crossing cards to a certain amount of people screened by the government. After ten years of hard work and no welfare or criminal activity then give them citizenship. I have also been to just about every part of mexico several times as its in my job. There is poverty in mexico but as in the U.S most of the poor are like that because they are lazy. It is up to the Mexican government to help them not us. The U.S has done plenty to help Mexico. Too much I think.

Powerslave,

I didn't think I was whining. Actually I'm just observing and commenting while I'm working my ass off, usually.

Kendricks has the best idea at least write in some candidates name because IMHO ther really are NO HONEST men to vote for.

PS Goodluck getting a Mexican laborer in San Diego
for less than $10 an hour.

Kendricks,

I concede the point. Maybe you are on to something. I just don't think it is a planned conspiracy. I think it is neglect and very shortsightednes on the part of the governement. For years Mexico was a little backwater. It has only been in the last 30 years that the population exploded making it I think the 12th most populous nation. And it has only been in the last 10 years that it has grown to be our number 2 trading partner, passing Japan in the process. The problem is that US policy and interest in Mexico has not kept pace with the change. State Department and other Agencies are monolithically slow to catch up with reality.

I complain about alot of what Mexico does RE the US. Their politicians are very hipocritical. Many Mexican policies make it very difficult for Foreign residents. But since I pay taxes here in Mexico I feel I can bitch about it just like I bitch about the States. And yes I could go on for hours about how fucked up some things are. But I never said I did not like living here. Its obvious I choose to live here. Many people bitch about the US government, but that does not mean they want to live elswhere. I choose to live in Mexico inspite of the problems because I like a)the language b) the women) c) the food) d)the culture. And not necesarily in that order. You just have to way the pros and cons. And just cause the pros win does not mean there are no cons.

Ahora,

I have agreed with some of your arguments, but your comment that the poor in Mexico are poor just because they are lazy indicates that your knowledge of Mexico is not very deep inspite of your Mexican girlfreinds, half mexican kids, and lifetime experiences. Poverty at levels seen in Mexico always has its bases in the socio-economic politics of the country and not in the ambitions of its populace. You may not be racist, but with comments like that it would be easy to think you are.

You say that all your freinds in Mexico do Ok. So do most of mine.A lot of them do very well indeed. That is because we hang out with one very small cross section of the populace. My guess is that the only poor people you come into contact with are the criminal class, and maybe the odd beggar in the zona, thus your generalization that they are all lazy scumbags.

Ahora, I have, in fact, heard plenty of people say that they should be denied emergency medical care. You may not have said it, but this sentiment does exist.

Batster, I doubt that there was any forethought conspiracy to make Mexico a third world country. I do think that the big businesses that own our government are happy with the way it has turned out, and are more than happy with the status quo.

There is a very intelligent Economist at Stanford named Thomas Sowell who has dedicated a large part of his career to studying immigration. His work indicates something the opposite of what you contend. He maintains that the most ambitious and entreprenurial leave their countries and emmigrate. If there is sufficient opportunity at home they don't emmigrate. If they are already well off they usually dont emmigrate. Furthermore when there is no economic demand in the target country, they stop emigrating to that country. The laziest people in any given population stay home. Why? Because it is easier to stay home. There is no risk. "

I agree %100 of what you have said here.
His books are works of art for mankind.
Great post.

This thread is a dead end. We can all voice our opinions forever and it will never change anything. I say we go back to talking about the Chicas !

Those who have no interest in this off-topic discussion are free to simply ignore it. When everyone here tires of discussing this issue, the thread will die on its own. No one here needs you, or anyone else, to tell them what off-topic topics they should be discussing in the off-topic section.

I wasn't telling anybody what they should be discussing, I was simply pointing out that we all have our opinions and that was all. Chill Out