I've recently become crazed (yet again) for a working girl - this time a dancer who supposedly doesn't sell her ass, but is a fichera and lapdance provider.

Over several months we have communed (lap dances & back rubs) and we are now starting to see each other outside the club.

This girl (she=young & beautiful, me= more than twice her age and quite fat) has never offered extra services (I would have bought !), although some of her co-workers do. We've never had sex (in the meaning of oral-genital relations or coitus)

I've been to her home, been introduced to some of her many brothers & sisters (all of the ones in TJ) and their families and her child.

For months it never bothered me that she'd do her number on-stage, nor lap dances (How did I meet her after all). Now we have both shared that we have an interest in each other, and I'm insanely jealous. I have to look the other way and try not to puke.

My ex-girlfriend was (at least before she met me, and after we met; mid-week who knows...) was a street girl, and I never felt like this. It's hell.

I'm sometimes literally love-SICK, which differs from my usual "I'd swear it was LOVE" infatuation.
I think this condition is really bad for my body.

Before I invest too much of myslf in this girl, I'd like to know if she's telling me no but selling (BJ or sex) to others. I've come up with the idea of having a buddy offer her 100 bucks for a blow job or sex and have him report back.

But this sounds kinda' low to me.
Is there another way to do this ?
I really need to know !
Any ideas ?

Are you giving her any money ? If you are not and she is attracted to you very possibly you are on the right track, however speaking with a lot of experience in all kinds of Mexican Bars it is very likely that she sees $$$ signs.

I think you definitely need to get the friend to offer the $100 and see if she takes it. This will be much easier for you to find out now. I say this often but these girls don't fair well out of their environment. Yes some of the girls in the Strip Joints, Bars, Brothels, Massage Parlors can be taken out and do fine but it is a very, very small percentage. Proceed with caution.

There have been so many guys go down there and meet the perfect girl and think she is so special and guess what. She wasn't so perfect and she wasn't so special after you get to know her. Good Luck but I have seen this rollercoaster ride for so long and almost all of them are over just like the ride itself.

If he does and she does then where are you?

$100?!

I'd offer $40 first... after all, EVERYONE has their price. You are just trying to determine what that price is, right? I mean, what if she won't go for $100, but will fuck for $500 - would that be OK with you?

...and just what is your angle? When this chick starts putting on the pounds and her looks start to go, you're just gonna move on to the next young floozy who will give you lap grinds for $10, right?

Bail now. If you can't do that, at least stay out of the club. Since she's seeing you outside anyway it removes the 'business' part of the equation.

If you're not going to the club, and she keeps seeing you outside the club AND you're not giving her money (or a lot of gifts) it may have a chance.

If your not going to the club, not getting even a HJ and you don't know if the is a working girl then why bother?
Go fishing, even the shark gives great head.

I'm always amazed at the strength of the romantic urge to possess (and be possessed by) women. Even among men who share this hobby of ours the urge is strong. Before i started corresponding with other hobbyist I always thought the GFE refered to being treated as though she were your girlfriend during sex. I have come to understand that , for many men, the GFE means having a girl act like a girlfriend both in and out of bed. This includes a clingyness and possessiveness which I personally find unpleasent, but many men seem to need it.Of course this type of situation leads to jealosy.
I have had many long term relationships with working girls which started as sex and developed into friendships,but the key seems to be to avoid possessiveness. It should not matter what she does when you are apart. Of course this is an ideal and sometimes cannot be maintained. If I feel myself beginning to become emotionally involved, I have to ask myself what I really want. Do I want this girl to myself and am I willing to(a) be faithful to her,and (b)am I willing to pick up the financial slack created if I want her to stop working.The difference is that now I will be paying for all her time instead of some of it.
I'm not saying that I am immune to these emotions
(I just went through a heartbreak over a girl in Brazil), but I know enough to know that if I cannot stay unpossessive I need to back off.Sometimes I can pull it off and have great relationships in which I see the girls periodically, and sometimes I can't. When I can't I need to back away, and when I can I need to respect the groundrules of the relationship. Just because she doesn't treat me like a john does not absolve me from the responsibility of paying for her time. The terms might be looser and less stated,but this is because I have proven myself to be trustworthy and my integrity can be relied upon.Far be it from me to betray that trust.Getting all emotional about a relationship which is understood to be business is also a betrayal and requires a new agreement at the very least.
Like the man said,"It's a fool who looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart." We all have emotions, but they are not very reliable motivators for action.

"We all have emotions, but they are not very reliable motivators for action. "

Wow, I'll say.....

To The Artist

That was a very well written post. A lot of us feel the same way but didn't want to make the effort to write it like that.

In Costa Rica we had a saying "you can take the girl out of the bar but you can't take the bar out of the girl"

In Mexico we have a saying "Una Puta siempre sera Una Puta" (a whore will always be a whore). There are exceptions to this but very, very few. I mean less than 1 %.

If a girl is used to selling her body to survive that means she has the ability to put up a mental block to what she is doing and regardless of what you do you cannot penetrate this barrier.

When she reaches the age that she realizes that she can't do this much longer your chances are better but if you are 40 (I am 40) or 50 and you think that this gorgeous 20 year old is going to give her life up to be with you, forget it !

Your chances are so small you can't comprehend it. Guys wake up, a whore can't be a housewife and I am sure that there are going to be guys flame this post as it is possible but for every guy who has maried a working girl there are 1000 more who have failed. Sorry for the attitude but I have seen so much of this.

To all of you good luck and I hope you do well but proceed with caution. That is the best part of this board is that guys don't flame other guys and I am not going to start but this is info that is valuable. If you want a Mexican wife go deep into Mexico and look for her in a small town not in a stripper's bar.

I hope that everybody does very well and lives happily ever after but think a lot about what I just said.

Beavis,

Well said.Obviously information drawn from experience and stated with sincerity. I was sorry to hear of your withdrawal from WSA, but I am glad that I will still be able to read your posts on this site.
As we all know one always pays for sex. Sometimes we pay with money and sometimes we pay with promises.The girl trades what she has (youth and beauty) for what I have (money and attention).The transaction is basically simple and the commercialism of our hobby renders this easier to see than in most "normal" interpersonal relations. One of the things I pay for in this relationship is a freedom from ties and a limitation of commitment. When I begin getting attached I am changing the basic fabric of the arrangement. I can certainly be friendly with the girls and there are many of whom I am quite fond, but this is like being friendly with my mechanic or with a chef, or anyone else with whom I have a basic service contract. Our mutual friendship makes life more pleasent,but it does nothing to change the basic nature of the contract.
Often I am amazed at the ability of many of these women to maintain what my friend Dood calls the "Godfather Principle".ie "this is business, not personal." I know that this takes a toll on many of the women and it is often very difficult for them to switch gears and think of sex as anything but commercial. This happened to me a few years ago when my girlfriend decided she wanted to try being an exotic dancer.It had a profound effect on her attitude toward sex and on our sexual relationship.The rules had been changed and the relationship changed with them.
Simply put these girls often develop a schizophrenic neurosis about sex...an artificial barrier between their emotions and sex. It is a necessary mechanism which has positive survival value in the context of their jobs, but which can permanently mar their ability to conduct interpersonal relationships.This does not necessarily make them any "sicker" than any other woman, but it is an obstacle which must be regognized.Not to do so is to court disaster.

just a thought. For those of you who think of "whore" as a derogatory term.Why is accepting money to do something fun(like sex) more degrading than paying money to engage in the same activity? Is sex something that men "get" and women "give"? If men are enriched by sex and women impoverished, why is the cash flow in the opposite direction? If the basis of being a whore is taking money to do something one doesn't want to do (assuming that whores don't like sex for itself) what does that make everybody who gets up on Monday mornig and goes to work?

The Artist

That was very well written also. There is so much of this. Guys go down to the border, have a good time and think that they are in love. I am in love, in love with the life of being a whoremonger and being able to find new girls to bang on a regular basis.

As for the WSA I might hang around but it seems there are a couple of guys that have comments on everything that have nothing to do with them. That is what I like here is there is no flaming and it seems like that is almost all that there is over there. Flaming and guys bitching because they had to spend $35 instead of $30 to get laid.

I always tell them go look in the mirror and ask yourself the question "would you fuck this for $30 ?" Chances are the answer is no and a couple of the guys over there could never get laid if they didn't pay for it then they bitch because it is $5 more than what they think it should be.

Artist,

I liked your post also.

However regarding your post about definition of a "whore" and how getting up to go to work Monday in a "regular" job compares with what a prostitute does...there is a very important element you have to take into account.

Most "normal" jobs involve an activity that could be construed or defined as impersonal. A mechanic fixes a car, a plumber fixes pipes etc etc etc. There is very little in most jobs that have elements of intimacy involved.

Sex in a "normal" setting is more than just an activity people like. It's an expression of intimacy and a very real realization between two people that there is a "specialness" about each other and a desire to share it.

The need to pay for sex is an admission that at this time for some reason sex is not available to us through "normal" ways, or we are adverse to a real connection for any of a zillion psychological reasons.

The need to sell sex is an admission you have no other recourse....almost a desperation move. Few girls get into it cuz they think it would be a nifty thing to do for a living. The ones who do probably have head trips of their own they're trying to address.

This is a very interesting, thoughtful thread, I must say. At the same time, it seems to me that there are really only about 5 ongoing, perpetual discussions at CH, and this is one of them. It occurs in various guises throughout this site. Perhaps we should call this "the oldest discussion."

As it turned out; all of a sudden she started with:

1. More desire for lap dances ($$) than anything else.

2. I'm not making any money today. If I don't make money tonight, I can't see you tomorrow. Come on over to the house at noon (delivering the sack of toys you brought for my kids and the relatives kids) & I'll tell you if I can go out with you.

3. My mom is sick and I have to work more to help provide medicine that cost 5,000 pesos ($ 550.00 U.S.) (She ignored an offer from me to obtain free ones from the U.S.)

So I took the sack of toys to the house the night before, shoved them inside the door with a quick "These are for (name)". I left a note inside saying. "I have decided to go back to the U.S., Take care.

Today I visited her briefly in the club. We sat not talking for about 10 minutes. She said she was going to wash up before dancing.

As she got up, I said "Voy a irme, sin regresar. Te doy curso libre....". She interrupted with a suprised look on her face "Sin Regresar ?". I repeatd so she could hear "Voy a irme, sin regresar. Te doy curso libre. Bienandanza."

(I'm going to leave, without returning.)
(I give you free reign [We're breaking up] )
( Godspeed )

I turned on my heel and left.

I felt sad, but YOU CAN'T LET THEM TRY TO CHEAT YOU ! It lacks respect, and you can never regain it !

I guess I have to remember "Hay mas panocha en Mexico que pesos".

Pauncho

More on "the oldest discussion"

Redongdo,
I appreciate your input ,but it seems that some of your comments are a result of cultural bias.What you say about the "need" to buy or sell sex is valid in many western civilization based societies in which sex is seen as basically sinful or shameful without the sanction of emotional intimacy or societal blessing.This does not hold in many other cultures. Some cultures do not associate sex with guilt and selling sex is merely an expediant rather than a desperation move. This is what i like about traveling to other countries where sex is less stigmatized. In Brazil for, instance, the program seem to attract the girls who are the most beautiful and the most sexually proficient and responsive.Many of these girls get into it precisely because it "is a nifty thing to do for a living." Why not?One gets to work for a few hours a day doing something which is at least potentially enjoyable
and gets paid 10 times what one can make at a more mainstream job.I'm not sure I believe a desire to get paid for sex is necessarily an indicator of mental problems.Nor is it true that something being "impersonal" makes it more or less pleasent or legitimate.By your definition, a therapist who delves into the depths of the emotions would be a prostitute due to the intimacy involved.Or how about a doctor (can't get much more intimate than that) Don't get me wrong, I think the therapist and doctor are prostitutes... but because they get paid to perform a service, not because the service is intimate.
Why does a level of emotional intimacy make sex "normal".I certainly agree that sex with emotion is a deeper, more complex experience,but this is a difference in degree not kind.Sex is an exchange of pleasures, of needs.Sometimes those needs are emotional, sometimes physical, sometimes financial. The need being met does not make the transaction any better or worse.
I do agree that frequently the desire to keep the transaction simple and limited stems from a desire to limit the level of emotional commitment. As I have said before ,one pays a girl, not to come, but to leave when asked.But I do not agree that emotional commitment is neccessary for a connection to be "real".

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Beavis- Glad you are over here and you noted that this site is more mature than the other one.

Here is your difference Gentlemen on who gets emotional...

Some mongers are lonely...They miss the signs what this beautiful 20 year old really is. Boys it is fresh in my brain here. Going thru it right now. And if we do see miss the signs , we ignore them.

Some mongers see it more clearly...They see the small signs that keep the "act" separate. I personally think the married men have the advantage here.

I have returned twice from trips to Rio and both times have not wanted to see any local GFs because they are not 20 yr hard bodied babes who are fun as heck to hang around. So I sit here bored out of my mind thinking about what I am missing 5000 miles away. Hell I know its lust, but...but....look at the pics hombre just put up for me...???

This has been a really interesting thread to read. While I have never had any kind of a lasting relationship with a prostitute on either side of the border, I did live with a stripper for a while many years ago. This, along with several other relationships and one marriage were all just what I was looking for at that time. Now I am not looking for anything that serious and all that goes with it. I do especially enjoy being with a hooker who either really enjoys what she is doing, or is a good enough actress that she has me convinced that she does. Then I can leave and not take any baggage with me, but in most cases can always return for another session if I want.

I have found this type of provider several times at AMPs near L.A., and less often in TJ but it is there. I think there is something in the Asian culture where some of the women are very natural in attending to their partners sexual desires.

My current favorite here locally seems to really enjoy what she does, and also drives a new Lexus. I never get any feelings that she has any feelings of guilt with what she does. The "guilt" thing seems to be very pervasive here in the U.S., but not in many other parts of the world.

I have rambled a bit here, but it includes some things that came to mind while reading the posts above.

Oh, one more thing: No more of this "When you look in the mirror ask yourself if you would fuck this for $30?" That does make me feel guilty.

ff

Artist,

I don't have a lot of experience with "The Profession" in other countries so I can't dispute your take with any kind of real first hand experience. However...and of course it's purely JIMNSHO...regardless of culture I really don't believe there are women who purely believe "it's a nifty way to make a living". Maybe I'm a guy with blinders on but I have trouble believing there are fathers out there who are proud their daughters are turning tricks for a living.

I personally don't associate sex with any kind of guilt. But I do believe it loses some of it's value when you attach a dollar sign to it...regardless of how big that dollar sign. It's one of the few things in life that loses value as a exchangable commondity.

I have no big moral problem with paying to play, afterall I'm doing it myself now. But I think it's important to do it with your eyes open and not consider it any kind of accomplishment or assign it any other kind of "noble" aura.

I position paying for sex somewhere between masturbation and "real" sex.

Looking back over your post and your comparison of therapists/psychologists as potential prostitutes because of my use of "impersonal" in the context of whether or not going to a job you don't like makes you a whore....the whole "intimacy" angle I presented. I'd say there is a degree of being impersonal that has to come with the objectivity of trying to straighten out someones ailing psyche. Sure, there's intimacy with confiding one's emotional hangups with someone else. But I think it is a different kind of intimacy than the kind that is shared between two people who are having sex with each other w/o it being a business transaction.

BTW before you decide I'm some kind of prude or religious freak...I've known a few hookers, strippers, porno queens and various other kinds of people in the sex trade in my life as well. I worked in that field myself for 6-7 years....not as deeply involved as a hooker, but I sold smut,worked in dirty movie houses, strip clubs, encounter parlors and some other stuff I'd rather not discuss.

Jobs like that are a lifestyle more than a job. The only people I seemed to know during that period were people who worked in that industry. However I never paid for sex until I went to TJ about 3-4 years ago. In fact I was on the other side of the fence, tricks were people to take money from and laugh at or feel sorry for. I understood tricks from the perspective of a salesman who know's his prospects. Now that I've crossed the line, well maybe I have a little more empathy but not much. I've met some great guys via these boards and partying in TJ....but most of the people I've met are the same types I had such disdain for before and quite frankly still do.

Anyway I just got home and I'm a little spaced out...rough night....sorry about the rambling.

A very interesting thread, Gentlemen.

“By your definition, a therapist who delves into the depths of the emotions would be a prostitute due to the intimacy involved.”

I resemble that remark.

“Some mongers are lonely...They miss the signs what this beautiful 20 year old really is. Boys it is fresh in my brain here. Going thru it right now. And if we do see miss the signs, we ignore them.”

Exactly. Mongering as unconscious self-medication. It’s all too common here, as I’ve come to realize. It must be “the oldest psychological disorder.” I’ve written about this previously on this site. If this is a topic that interests you, may I suggest that you check out the Mens health: Mental Health thread on this board. I think I’m gonna have to dig up some discussions from the Mexico Chat archives that are totally relevant here. A number of us (including the esteemed Matiz) weighed in on the topic…

Dating a stripper. Yup, I did that in my not so distant youth a couple times. It was very exciting. Sex could be great or awful. In the end, these were fucked up relationships with fucked up people—even though one of them was cool in so many other ways. Some of the best death-wish sex I ever had… Gotta agree with Redongdo’s last post:

“I personally don't associate sex with any kind of guilt. But I do believe it loses some of it's value when you attach a dollar sign to it...regardless of how big that dollar sign. It's one of the few things in life that loses value as an exchangeable commodity.”

When you trade sexual contact for money, it doesn’t matter if you are on the supply side or the demand side. You’ve put a bandage over a giant scar where intimacy was meant to be. Sometimes I feel sad because I’m not currently in a thriving, solid, intimate, sexual relationship. But I know the difference, and don’t confuse my favorite hobby with the real item, even when friendship and sexual passion are present. The real tragedy is that there are people out there who never got on the boat; who don’t even know that the boat exists. We are in the realm of fact here, not opinions, for those of you who are keeping score.

There has been some research done on the personality of prostitutes, both in the US and some Latin American countries. Although there is plenty of variability within the profession, they differ—on average--from the general population in that they tend to be somewhat more paranoid, among other things. This isn’t merely intrinsic to their current profession; it isn’t a coincidence that they find a situation in life where trust and truth and intimacy are scarce, and sex is something to be both mastered and sold. It often is related to early abuse (sexual or otherwise) or a family dynamic where the child learned that her value was tied to sex and sexual behavior. Programmed from an early age to miss the boat. This is not an indictment of the profession or the hobby. It is a partial explanation of the forces that create the hobby.

It isn’t a coincidence that we’ve found these women, or that they’ve found us. When we play this game, we are all on the outside looking in.

“JIMNSHO”

No comprendo, amigo.

“I've met some great guys via these boards and partying in TJ....but most of the people I've met are the same types I had such disdain for before and quite frankly still do.”

Is the disdain itself pathetic? Time to get beyond it?

Gotta get some sleep… Best,
Dogster

"JIMNSHO"

"Just In My Not So Humble Opinion"

I'll explore my last statement later...still chugging coffee.

Very entertaining. Again this is what makes this site so much better than the rest. I am guilty of ragging other people on the WSA but never until they have thrown the 1st punch then my old Southern Redneck instinct takes over.

DOUBLEFF my apologies for the $30 comment but that was not directed at anyone here. That was for those assholes who are constantly complaining because they have to pay $5 more. I made a post on the other site as there was a lot of talk about how expensive the girls have become in Costa Rica. I made the comment that the $100 an hour or get off I'm out the door was too much but, I also said that if the girl was fine, very enthusiastic and rocked your world, didn't watch the clock and fucked you to the point that you were done for the day and you felt she was deserving of $100 that it was OK to pay her that. That is why I made the "Look in the mirror, would you fuck this for $30 comment".

As soon as I posted that along came a regular smartass complaining about that's too much. I just said put the shoe on the other foot. That goes back to the comment about being able to live like a king for little money in 3rd world countries. If eating beans and rice is what you call living like a king indeed you can but any american who has ever lived outside of the US will know that to live to the quality of life we are used to it cost just as much in 3rd world countries as it does here. Some things are cheaper and some are more expensive.

The thing that is absent in 3rd world countries that has infected the US to epic proportions are #1 Lawyers #2 Insurance Companies. That is why it cost so much to live in the US but when you buy your TV or Stereo or Car in Mexico, or Costa Rica, or Brazil or wherever you are going to pay more.

Sorry for getting carried away but that is the one thing I know about this site that nobody is going to start ragging on me (unless you are a lawyer or insurance salesman but, you know it's true).

Senor Pauncho

Creo que hiciste el decision correcto. Te vas a seguir muy bien porque seran muchas muchachas que pueden dar los sentimientos ricos a usted. Proximo vez con sexo otra de bailes de la mesa. Buena suerte y vaya bien.

I think you made the right decision. You are going to do very well because there are always going to be many girls who can give you those rich feelings. Next time with sex other than table dances. Good luck.

Thank you gentlemen for your contributions. I find this type of thread intellectually stimulating...and i do love stimulation of all kinds.
Redongdo,
I am not trying to be an armchair pshchologist here, but if you will reread you own post from an objective point of view I think you will find ample evidence of an attitude of sexual guilt.
Some of this is unavoidable and is largely a result of the Judeo-Christian basis of western culture. I am only keenly aware of this because I suffered from it for so many years and have spent so much effort in dealing with it.
When one visits a culture without this basis the differences in attitude are dramatic. Thailand, for instance, which is predominately Bhuddist, does not labor under the idea of sexual guilt and the difference is notable.True, prostitutes are considered to be of low status,but this is a class and economic bias rather than one based on sexual conduct. The strongly defined line that we draw between "whores" and "nice" girls is much more blurred in such a culture.
In fact there is a great deal of guilt associated with sex.The key word being "associated" The guilt comes from a societal attitude rather from the sex itself. Sex itself is basically innocent and it is only the pathology that we bring to it that renders its "exercise" unhealthy.
Relationships are deepened and enriched by honesty and integrity and are impoverished by manipulation and duplicity...not money. Intimacy is lost through manipilation and selfishness. Thus we often have marriages which are nothing more than long term prostitution contracts without the honesty of the bordello. Societal legitimacy is no guarentee of emotional integrity.Do not fool yourself. In sex,as in every other human activity, there is an energy exchange. The value of the experience is measured in the equity of the exchange, not in its currency.

"I find this type of thread intellectually stimulating"

Translated..."There's nothing on television and I already beat off"

OK...HAH!

Gotta run out the door and do some shit...but I'll try and address this stuff this evening.

"I have trouble believing..."

All it takes is a little faith. :o)

Regards,
RickFeliz

Thank you for your comments Beavis. I guess my problem is that - faced with a lovely set of tits, sparkling eyes, and a big smile - I'm just a butthead.

Although another monger has characterized me as "scum" for starting this thread, I admit to as more foolish romantic ideas than the rest of you mongers combined.

Senor Panocha please read:

I'm not such a sucker for "Hot" chick as I am for "girl next door". The dancer I fell for was neither the best looking (her cousin was), the sexiest just sitting there (her other cousin was), nor the sexiest dancer (her sister was).

But despite all that, her goofy grin and the way she walked in her stilt-like high heels (like a little girl playing "grown-up" in her mom's high heels) really appealed to me. She reeked with an apparent lack of ease in this job she had done for four years.

I would have liked to talk with her about our problems and how I felt about her actions. That's nearly impossible to do in a bar due to interruptions & noise. I had to cut it off quick to protect myself, because I cared for her and can no longer trust her due to her lies.

Previous experience has taught me how meretricious Tijuana women can be, and how much I can lap it up.

Read a little of "A Fool & His Money are Soon Parted" to get a feeling for where I come from.

Pauncho

OK guys let me tell you about one of my experiences that will contradict myself.

I lived in Mexico for 3 years, when I 1st arrived in 1998 I was ok with my spanish but it is much better now. I went through the gf scene from the bars. Went through about 3, got laid plenty and all in all it was ok and I didn't get ripped off or hurt.

I later met a semi pro and shortly thereafter moved in with her. We had a good time, did like normal couples do we fought and we made up like a see saw. I still fooled around on her but we did ok. After about 2 years (in which I had played plenty on the side) I caught her in a couple of small lies but I don't think the girl ever ran around on me. If she did so what but I really don't think she did. When I met her I was 36 she was 22. Long story short we eventually parted but still are very good friends to this day. This might still be the Mrs. Beavis one day who knows.

OK after this girl a friend of mine whom I had introduced to a very pretty non working girl that he had been with for over 2 years introduced me to the sister of this girl. Anyway the sister was 32, very pretty, never been in a bar or on the street in her entire life.

We hit it off great. Rented an apartment together shortly after meeting. She had a piece of land on the water in the state of Tabasco and I was going to build a house there as I knew I would spend the rest of my life with this woman. She waited on me hand and foot, did anything I wanted to do, never complained about anything. I thought this is too good to be true but at least I have finally found a good honest woman. I was all set to become a Mexican forever.

I was going to buy a car in which I had taken out $45,000 pesos (about $5,000 US). I was buying stereos, furniture, appliances, and things for the house. I even had the plans drawn up and we were going to start the house as soon as I got off of the ship.

She was feeling sick so I told her to go stay with her mama a couple of days as this was on Saturday and I was due to get off on the following Tuesday. We were in port on Sunday scheduled to depart for a 2 day trip then return around Tuesday or Wednesday. She called me and said I miss you and hurry up and get off the ship so you can come and be with me.

The following Tuesday I did indeed get off and I went with the money to buy the car from the guy but he had gone into town and would be gone for about an hour. I then left and went to our apartment to start packing some of my things for the trip to go get my sweet girlfriend.

When I arrived at my apartment I found my clothes in a big pile in the middle of the floor and a note saying I can't be with a Gringo I need to be with a Mexican. About $8,000 USD worth of appliances, furniture, tv's, electronics ect. all gone.

OK needless to say I went and told the guy I no longer wanted the car but I had a month off and $45,000 pesos so I did what any true monger would do I went on a whore filled vacation and got laid all over Mexico. I spent all of the pesos and a few more but had a blast.

I know this has nothing to do with anything I just wanted to give a good example of trust in Mexican women and this was one that had never been in a bar. Bottom line NEVER TRUST ANY WOMAN. THEY ARE GOOD FOR ONE THING AND ONE THING ONLY. You never know what cards you will be dealt but the hands I have been dealt in Boy's Town play a hell of a lot better than any of the other ones I have been given before. OK I'll shut up now !

Cooking?

Hi Artist,

Thanks for sharing your well reasoned observations. Your prose bears the mark of careful thinking preceding expression, I almost feel like I am browsing through an Ayn Rand thesis.
Re: "Simply put these girls often develop a schizophrenic neurosis about sex...an artificial barrier between their emotions and sex. It is a necessary mechanism which has positive survival value in the context of their jobs, but which can permanently mar their ability to conduct interpersonal relationships."
This is a vital paragraph and a profound truth, which begs acceptance by all who venture beyond the merely physical and financial transaction with a working girl. In order to be able to manage their working career, most girls develop a separate identity replete with new name, clothes, body language, styling and exchange focused behavior. I believe the longer she works, and maintains this persona, the deeper she will slide into voluntary schizophrenia, sometimes culminating in a complete split from her true personality. This is no different than character actors running risks when they "become their role." To prepare for the later scenes in "Marathon Man" Dustin Hoffman reputedly went sleepless and showerless for 4-5 days in order to appear appropriately disheveled and exhausted. Everyone was shocked when he dragged himself on to the set, barely able to speak his lines. To which Laurence Olivier remarked: "Have you tried ACTING!!"

Traveller,

A comparison to Ayn Rand. I really am flattered...I think. Depending on your opinion of AR that could be a terrible insult. Some people really hate her, but I will choose to believe that was meant positively. Thank you.
I have always loved that Hoffman/Olivier story and your use of it as an example is especially apt since method actors (Hoffman) are taught to rely on the intuitive/emotional for their characterizations. Essentially this is the feminine side of the character and it is more difficult for the feminine to seperate sex and emotion. Thus we see the elaborate psychological facades erected by some working girls. Not that these are a bad thing...whatever gets you through the night...but it is foolish to ignore their existence. I am quite willing to suspend my disbelief for the benefit of a performance but I lay myself open for problems when I start confusing the fantasy for reality.To use another Olivier reference (this time from SLEUTH )"One always pays in the bedroom...sometimes to get in...sometimes to get out."

Artist,

For the record, I meant to complement your analytical acumen and the deftness with which you expose the moral and emotional phaluses, sorry fallacies, associated with professional intimacy, whatever guise it may dressed up in. Ayn Rand prided herself on cold, detached analysis and a de facto acceptance of primal motivation as a guiding force in human nature. She could be a bitch, though, and probably didn't get laid much.

I am pleased to see that Olivier stays with you. His other famous quote was, when asked why he chose to become an actor: "Look at me, look at me, look at me."

Gentlemen:
Listen to me, listen to me, listen to me.

"I am not trying to be an armchair psychologist here"
Hah! This is the armchair psychologist thread if there ever was one, amigos. Or maybe we should say "bedside psychologist." Lots of penetrating analysis, as it were. I know psychobabble when I hear it. This is not an indictment of armchair psychobabble, I might add. As we sip our cappuccinos and wipe the smudges off our spectacles, allow me to make a few points.

"Simply put these girls often develop a schizophrenic neurosis about sex...an artificial barrier between their emotions and sex. It is a necessary mechanism which has positive survival value in the context of their jobs, but which can permanently mar their ability to conduct interpersonal relationships."

Good point, espcially regarding functions served by putting up a barrier. No such thing as a "schizophrenic neurosis" though....

"I believe the longer she works, and maintains this persona, the deeper she will slide into voluntary schizophrenia, sometimes culminating in a complete split from her true personality."

"Voluntary schizophrenia." Hmm. Another nonexistent entity. Not much evidence out there to support such a theory, I might add. There's no question that the work has gotta screw up their relationships and take a toll, in many instances but not all. But as far as permanently marring their abilities to conduct interpersonal relationships, I doubt it.

The bigger issue regards the factors that bring someone into the business in the first place. Those issues are the ones that also influence how they behave in interpersonal relationships.

Very early in childhood, girls put relative weights on the following things, based on their upbringing: (1) interpersonal closeness and connection, (2) financial and physical security, and (3) conformity vs. exploration. Later, when girls reach sexual maturity, history tends to repeat itself, based on the lessons they learned as children.

If a child learns to highly value and understand interpersonal closeness with men (e.g. her father primarily, but also uncles, brothers, etc), she's going to seek closeness, not distance. She won't go into prostitution voluntarily, and if she does, she won't last. It simply won't be a good fit with the profession; she'll be miserable. Conversely, if the child's upbringing lacks that interpersonal warmth, or includes lots of sexual abuse or oversexualized interaction, she won't develop the desire or the skills for interpersonal closeness with men. Such things won't be especially reinforcing. Rather, she won't want to ever be dependent on any man.

If a child learns to highly value financial and physical safety (or more likely to fear the lack thereof), she'll tend to see sexual interactions as yet another sexual commodity. That's especially true if she hasn't learned to value interpersonal closeness with men. It isn't that the capability for intimacy goes away when she becomes a prostitute. It is that the capability for intimacy was never all that well developed in the first place.

Lastly, if a child learns to be very conforming, she is not likely to become a prostitute (unless her own mother/family) has a history in the business. Actually, there are quite a few families where generation after generation enters the biz. If she learns to be an explorer or something of a nonconformist adventurer, she's likely to gravitate to the business for reasons other than (or in addition to) money. The excitement, the attention, the sexual energy, the fantasy of being a whore, etc. Our favorite providers often have quite a bit of this third element going for them. They get off on the job.

Much more to say here, but more time. But the gist of what I'm saying is that the job doesn't cause them to become a certain way. They choose the job because of how they are. For better or worse.

"she'll tend to see sexual interactions as yet another sexual commodity."... should read "as yet another commodity."

Dogster,

In order to comply with your designation, we self described armchair bullshit artists constantly need to produce new terms that can be attacked and debunked by the elite intelligentsia out there.
The term "Voluntary Schizophrenia" relates to the prostitute's deliberate adoption of various roles as a coping mechanism. They plan out a different persona, or multiple personae, as a means of balancing the requirements of the various relationships they juggle.
Anyway, we have enough material here to publish an article or a book. Any creative publishers out there?

Like most psycobabble books it would be worthless. Any of the generalizations here will hold true in some cases and fall flat in others. Every woman is a separate and unique person, even in Tijuana.

All of this is very true but if you read what I wrote in RED it will hold true maybe not in all but in a very large portion of the female species.

What you wrote in red is "NEVER TRUST ANY WOMAN"

I dunno, if I were to write that sentence it would be "Never trust anyONE." But I wouldn't write it because I'm a trusting type of guy. I trust everyone worthy of my trust and the others I don't deal with. If someone breaks my trust, they're the loser, not me. Karma.

Just because people are individuals does not mean that they do not fall into general trends or patterns of action.For those who enjoy such things deliniating such patterns is a fun way to spend the time.
Dogster,
I agree with your general analysis of formative elements, The importance of early environment and experience cannot be underestimated, however this is a bit of a chicken or egg situation.Nothing stands alone and people change as a result of adult experiences as well.How the job affects one is often a result of their personality type...that it affects them is undeniable.
A schizophrenic neurosis would be functional nervous disorder characterized by the personality confusion associated with schizophrenia without the depth of true psychosis.I believe such a thing exists. Please forgive me if I take a little literary license with psychological jargon to try and describe something I have experienced.

Artist,

I am beginning to sense a Hegeliean bent toward the thesis/antithesis view of social development. Ultimately, we are looking at life through the prism of personal experience. Hence the argumentative dialogue on the board. Peace across the land!

Whatever this had been a fun thread and opened a lot of peoples views on certain aspects of things. There is a slight variation but it looks as if we are all in the same ballpark just in a few different positions.

Mission accomplished we freed Senor Pauncho from what was certain to be a very bumpy road to travel.

PLus I got to tell about the Bitch that ripped me off.

"There is a slight variation but it looks as if we are all in the same ballpark just in a few different positions."
I agree. Missionary accomplished.

I suppose that we are indeed in the same ballpark. Bit this is one place where there's no point in bragging about making it to third base last night...

"If someone breaks my trust, they're the loser, not me. Karma."
Yeah, Karma.

Dogster you say that prostitution can run in families. My favorite provider says that her roommate is 36 with an 18 year old daughter who is being taught the tricks of the trade by mom. They both are presently working in Adelitas.

Nayarit, rising star of Club Hombre:
Very interesting. Yeah, I've heard of such things. That isn't quite what I was thinking about when I posted on this thread. I guess we're talking about the "Pretty Baby" theme (Brooke Sheilds first movie). Btw, I just read what you wrote about "outcall chicas." Interesting stuff.

Trying to stick to this tangent, do you guys know of any similar discussion group that posts about Las Vegas strippers?

I met a girl who works at one of the strip clubs *Olympic Gardens* (she showed me her card and sure enough she had the Gardens logo on her card and her schedule, but does not keep it anymore. Just curious to foind out what happened to her. Goes tby the stripper name of "Charlize", tall blonde.

I'm a little late to this thread, but here are my thoughts.

Artist, I was culturally biased while I was in the US, then I discoved TJ and I knew everything. Of course Costa Rica proved me wrong, but then I was knowledgable until I visited Thailand. The other side of the world is a completely different world, you and I know that, but some others need to see it to believe it. Everyone I know that has gone knows what I'm talking about, and I'm sure those that haven't think I'm full of it.

Layne, your Brazilian is the BOMB, three weeks dude! (not Dood)

Pauncho, if you are lucky enough (or unlucky enough) to make it to another part of the world, you will eventually realize that TJ women are novices at making a man believe he is special.

cf, couldn't we say the same about almost everything in life? We seek out patterns and make generalizations so we can learn, predict, and understand. How many women have you met that live in Asia? I've "met" over 50 and I've "met" over 300 that live in Mexico. Each one has been unique, but the ones from Asia have much more in common with each other and have been much different than those from Mexico.

Man, this thread was too much for me. I need to get laid!

d'Artagnan, I was just lashing out at the "NEVER TRUST ANY WOMAN" comment. It's bad advice and a very sad way to look at the world. I haven't "met" any woman in asia and really haven't had much interest in doing so. I "met" around a hundred in Mexico before I lost interest in "meeting" hookers and chose to get to know women as people. To each their own, if you're happy racking up numbers more power to you.

Hombre: This post was edited for anonymity reasons. Please respect the anonymity of handles on this site.

Sorry, both were handles and I assumed both were anonymous.

cf

Ok I guess I will have to agree with you I just haven't had much luck when it came to trust in the Latina women. Yes I know a few that are doing well and I think there are some out there you just aren't going to find very many of them in Brothels/Strip Clubs.

That was kind of bold I agree but you can figure it out. One great thing about this board is everyone seems to work together and don't start taking shots at one another.

All this was meant to be was a little incentive to Senor Pauncho. I guess I need to get used to it here as I came from the WSA and it is a full blown War Zone. Let's all go get laid and call it a day.

I appreciate your help, but for a change, I figured this one out for myself. She didn't get much (compared to her predecessors):

Gifts (mostly for the kids)

Lots of Lap Dances - I knew what I was getting & paid for it

Once - unsolicited help on niece's emergency medical bills ($220 bucks)due to a head injury.

When she really started the shit (Mother's medicine $ 550 Bucks) I got it right away and dumped her sorry ass (which I miss horribly).

She hasn't called (& won't), but if she did, she doesn't have a clue as to the words that would sway me.

Compare this to one who got about $2,500 from me a year & 1/2 ago (This story never got written) and I feel pretty good.

I'm pissed off enough that I'm not even going to Tijuana this weekend.

Later I may start up visiting Mid-Week. I'm damn tired of the border wait.

Pauncho