I'm not gonna cross swords with a fantasy-league baseball brainiack, but you mentioned The Braves. I loathe the Braves, but they just won't go away.

I played fantasy baseball back in the 80s (before the internet) and really got into it. Scanning the boxscores takes on a whole new meaning.

I'm hoping Walker gets energized by the trade and performs like Will Clark did when he finished up in St. Louis a couple years ago.

The big four Explorer mentioned are hard to argue with. First game I ever went to was I believe July 15, 1967 Cards vs Pirates. That was the game Roberto Clemente hit a line drive and broke Gibson's leg. Turned out to be a happy ending for the Cards that year anyway.

Koufax wasn't all that good? What have you been smokin'?

Did any of those guys win 300 games? Shit, even Don Sutton did THAT!

Koufax was a great pitcher for a very short period of time. Cesar Cedeno and Garry Templeton were great players for similarly short periods of time. Drysdale was a product of his era/team/park. Gibson had one glorious season and many other good ones. Gee, so did Denny McLain (which just so happened to be in the year of the pitcher, 1968). Yaz won the '67 triple crown, and I believe he hit .301 in the process. Pedro, et. al, were posting 1.sumthing ERA's when McGwire/Sammy/Bonds were making a mockery of the record book. Big, big, BIG difference.

Koufax was THE dominant pitcher of his time, '62 - '66. Cedeno and Templeton had a couple of good years, but in particular Templeton was not the best of his era.

Koufax was basically unbeatable for the latter part of his career, and is considered by many to be one of the maybe top 3 lefties of all time.

Templeton had a similar run from '77-82 when he also put up the greatest defensive stats ever in addition to massive BA/hits/SB/triples #'s, plus terrific RBI #'s for a middle IF of that era.

Koufax was indeed great for a short sample period of time, but can you really stack that up vs. Spahn and Carlton's prolonged dominance, and the Big Ugly's extended run against much tougher offensive conditions?

Short sample sizes lead to skewed results. Of course if modern surgery had been an option in the 60's, Koufax might have added a good 15 years to his career, a la Tommy John, and we'd be talking about Cy Young Jr. instead of a glorified Sidd Finch!

Speaking of which... Wasn't Rick Ankiel supposed to be the next Finch/Koufax/John already???

Koufax and Gibson were the two greatest pitchers I have ever seen. Those other guys were pretty good but if I had to choose one guy to start a game and win, my choice would be Sandy Koufax.

When Koufax was on he was unhitable. Did you ever see the break in his curveball for Christ's sake? It musta broke three feet.

Re: Maddux:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBpMGlxY3AxBF9TAzk1ODYxNzc3BHNlYwNvZQ--?slug=cnnsi-herestoyougreg&prov=cnnsi&type=lgns

Over a 5-year period, granted, you could argue that Koufax might have been the best ever. Gibson's run of dominance didn't last for much longer than that, either. Drysdale was way overrated. Marichal may have been the most overlooked of the four, but I agree, you can pretty much view all pitching stats from the '60s with a skeptical eye. The mound was much higher than it is now, and the strike zone was bigger.

I actually think the greatest era for superstar pitchers may have been the '70s. Seaver, Carlton, Palmer, Sutton, Niekro, Ryan, Perry, Jenkins, Hunter, Blyleven... all those guys pitched huge numbers of innings and had careers of 20 years or more. Plus, that was when Astroturf was popping up everywhere, which made life miserable for pitchers.

I'll have to agree that the current gang of four (Maddux, Clemens, Unit, Pedro) is an impressive bunch, especially with balls flying out of parks the way they are. I think Pedro has to rank behind the other three because of his fragility, but when he's on, I think he's easily the most dominating pitcher I've ever seen... sort of like a modern-day, right-handed Koufax.

I think you have to add Curt Schilling to your gang of four. Perhaps even ahead of Pedro in terms of long term consistent effectiveness. Especially keeping in mind he pitched for so many years for absolutely atrocious Phillie teams.

Hmmm... you made me stop and think for a second, since I forgot about Schilling and I'm a Phillies fan. So I went and looked at his career record. Two pretty good years in 92-93 and a great postseason in '93. Injury problems from '94 to '96. Two outstanding years in '97 and '98 with mediocre won-lost records due to those lousy Phillie teams. Injuries got in his way again in '99 and '00. Two Cy Young-caliber seasons with the D-backs in '01 and '02, then a mediocre '03. I like the guy, and you're right, his career matches up pretty well with Pedro's, but he has a long way to go before he can match the 5 or 6 Cy Young awards won by Clemens and the Unit and Maddux's string of 15-win seasons.

Schilling's in the "best of the rest" category along with Tom Glavine and maybe Mike Mussina.

Farsider
As a diehard Cub's fan I do not care about his record. He is one pitcher the Cubbies could never beat it seems. You gotta admit that with a fairly average Diamond Backs taem he was dominant. He was the real MVP of the WS and entire playoffs although he shared the honor with the Ugly Unit.

Bonds hits two more dingers. Is this guy gonna be shameless enough to hang around long enough to break Aaron's record?

ESPN's Sunday Night Conversation with Barry Bonds pretty much confirmed what I feared all along--he is going to be shameless enough to go ahead and break Aaron's record.

Next question: Is he going to stick around long enough to win a World Series?

Gregorio: It might be easier to break the record if he wasn't being walked 200 times a year. He's a much better hitter (and obviously the most FEARED in history) than Aaron ever was, and when you add defense and baserunning to the equation, old Henry couldn't carry his jock.

Enjoy watching Sr. Bonds while you still can. 'Roids or not, he's a special talent.

What kind of numbers would Aaron have put up if he had the special training regimes, the personal trainers, the nutritional consultants and THE STEROIDS? If he would have added 35 pounds of muscle after the age of 30, like Bonds, lord only knows what he would have done.

When you're stronger, you have more bat speed--not only do you hit with more power, most likely your average takes a big upwards spike.

What about the fact that the majority of Aaron's career was played when pitchers had lower ERAs and fewer runs were scored across the board due to higher pitchers mound (and the balls weren't juiced).

Look at the overall picture in context. As a generalization, baseball "in the old days" captured the national attention much more so than it does now, so more of the best athletes gravitated towards baseball.

In summation, Mr. P., for Aaron, to rise up and come out king of the hill when he did, I hope, makes you reconsider "the jock" comment.

PS remember Bonds' "clutch performances" in the playoffs in the early 90s. Sad, truly sad. And I was pulling for the Pirates big time back then.

Good points, Gregorio, kind of like the points I made about today's PITCHERS being the greatest ever. But limit Aaron to 350 at bats (due to walks) the last 5-6 years of his career and see how many homers he would have hit. That Bonds is so prolific with so few opportunities is simply amazing, and those opportunities ARE so limited beCAUSE he's so dominant.

And YEAH, Barry's post-season record ain't much to be proud of. He's also a jerk, and probably a cheater. But the fucker can sure hit some homers and he was ONCE a terrific all-around player -- a much better all-around player than Aaron ever was.

I'm not sure what side I'm on re: the doping scandals. I'm personally interested in seeing advances in the limits of human performance, and if Ben Johnson was all 'roided up in 1988 in Seoul and ran faster than some HORSES, I think that's pretty cool. And I'm sure the fact that the average NFL lineman is 50 lbs. heavier than they were a generation ago is all due to creatine...

I think that's why I dislike him so much. He is a jerk, he is a cheater, and he is a choker. If he's gonna stick around a couple more years he has the opportunity to change the choker label though.

I could have kicked myself in the ass the other night. I was bored shitless so went to a local "go-go" club and the DJ says, "how many of you guys would like some free passes? The first guy who tells me the last Cardinal to win the NL batting title gets five free passes."

I start racking my brain and I come up with Joe Torre, then Willie McGee. About that time he says, "I'll even give you a hint, his initials are AP. Well that threw me for a loop. My brain just wouldn't access that info.

Apparently nobody else got it either, after about 10 minutes he says "Albert Pujols."

FUCK, I had forgotten Pujols won the title last year. Just goes to show the effects of aging on short-term memory.

Cleveland 22, Yankees 0.

That result just underscores Earl Weaver's observation that the winning team in any given baseball game usually scores more runs in one inning than the loser does the entire game...

Bonds and everyone else these days, hits more homers because the ball is juiced, the parks are smaller, and the pitching is diluted and of poorer quality (more teams) with a lower mound.

Aaron and Mays and Mantle had much more power than Barry Bonds. These inflated numbers mean nothing to me. Barry Bonds has a throwing arm of a girl. Anyone ever see the great one Roberto Clemente throw out a runner at the plate from 350' away??? I did lots of times.

Barry Bonds a better hitter than Hank Aaron??? You must be on steroids or narcotics. I think you are getting too much fluff in the Phillipines as it has affected your rational mind. Yeah, and Mick Jagger would have made a great middle linebacker in the national football league.

Damn, your first response wasn't good enough so you had to rant a little bit? How many IBB's was Henry getting in his prime, genius? How many homers do you think he woulda hit if he was getting 350 AB's a year because they walked his ass TWO HUNDRED TIMES?

How many times did Aaron hit even FIFTY homers, much less SEVENTY-THREE? How many times did Henry slug .750+? Have a .500+ OBP?

Yeah, that's because of the juiced ball and bandboxes like 3rivers and Candlestick and Pac Bell park... Gee, weren't those some of the same parks that Aaron and Mays and your slap-hitting boy Clemente played in?

And finally, it is simply inSANE how well Bonds is playing as such an old fart in his 40's. I think we all remember what Mays and Mantle and Aaron were like towards the end: Wrecked shells of the guy they once were.

And it ain't like Bonds is Jerry Rice, either, marginally productive despite being in incredible shape for his age: The fucker's still the annual odds-on favorite to be the league MVP, which is chosen by sportswriters that HATE HIS ASS.

WHEN he breaks Aaron's record, it will be one of the most incredible achievements in the history of sports, not so much as him crossing the finish line, but how he got there from being some skinny kid speed merchant to he-man slugger. And YEAH, steroids were probably involved. SO???

Ichiro with 56 hits in August? WOW! Three months of .400+ averages this year and .450+ since the all-star break. Man, just think of what HE might do with some steroids!!!

(Message edited by porker on September 01, 2004)

Something really scary would be Porker on the loose in AC on steroids, tequila and vitamin V.

He'd be ready to make love and war at the same time.

With the possible exception of a few of Babe Ruth's seasons, Bonds' last four years are arguably the best offensive seasons in the history of baseball. Even taking into account the recent offensive explosion. And never mind the home runs, anyhow. It's his other stats that are amazing. An on-base percentage over .600? Are you kidding me?

I fully expected his stats to fall off this year because of the 'roid scandal, but once again, he's having an amazing year. I don't like the guy, either. But I'll give him props for being the most intimidating offensive force of our time, and maybe of all time.

It's pointless to compare stats of players from different eras. The most telling comparison would be to see how they stacked up against the other players of their time. Even at 40 Bond's numbers are staggering this year:
bb: 75 more than 2nd most
on base %: .148 higher than 2nd
slugging: .151 higher
ops: .335 higher!
hr/ab: 8.1 to 11.0

I would think the only one who could compare favorably in any of these categories would be Ruth in slugging and hr/ab. There were years that he hit more hrs than most other teams in the league.

jesse

I think without the steroids, Bonds would have been much like his father (yeah I'm that old), an excellent all-around offensive threat.

Without the steroids he might not have hit 500 homeruns. Same thing could be said about McGwire and Sosa. I don't mind seeing records broken, as long as it's on a level-playing field.

Like Forrest Gump, that's all I'm gonna say about that...

Roberto Clemente (aka slap hitter) hit safely in all 14 world series games he was in. He was the team leader and world series mvp of the '71 Pirates who beat an Orioles team that was considered by Earl Weaver to be the best team he ever fielded.

It was a team, by the way, that had 4 twenty game winners that year. Clemente had twelve hits in the '71 series and two of those were home runs. Clemente hit a home run off of Cuellar in the seventh game to give the Pirates the lead. Pretty good for a slap hitter.

How many world championship teams has Barry Bonds been on. Oh yeah none. I have seen bonds in post season play and guess what, he is a chokerrrrrrr!

The like the old definition of greatness by the football coach Bill Austin and that is 'a great player is one who comes up big in big games'. Barry Bonds is a no show in big games and despite these meaningless stats you love to quote I remain completely unimpressed by him and his arrogant ass and yes, your meaningless statistics.

(Message edited by lancer on September 02, 2004)

So I guess Brian Doyle and Adam Kennedy were great players, huh?

Hmmm, I guess hitting 73 homers and walking 200 times and having .600 OBP's and .800 slugging %'s are 'meaningless' numbers, but winning 20 games isn't. By definition, didn't THOSE GUYS choke in the postseason also?

I agree with Porker.

;)

how bout those bosox!! I just hope they don't shoot their load before the playoffs!

Roberto Clemente is in the hall of fame unlike Brian Doyle and Adam Kennedy. He was a great player who came up big in the big games which was my point. What no mention of Bonds choking in the playoffs? You have never seen Clemente play if all you have to say about him is that he was a slap hitter.

Clemente won the batting title 4 times and was the tenth player (at the time) to have 3000 hits. Perennially Clemente won the golden glove at his position. He always played with intensity and was class all of the way both to fans and to his teammates and to those in need.

You would never see a selfish guy like Barry Bonds risking his life to help the victims of a natural catastrophe. There is more to excelling in baseball than hitting home runs.

Dude, are you retarded? What the fuck does helping earthquake victims have to do with baseball? And Clemente had the power of the average middle infielder today (have you seen Juan Stinkin' Uribe's stats this year?), something you can't argue with. I never said Clemente was a BAD hitter, just that he had little power. If YOU want to compare him to Bonds, Bonds is gonna banish him back to obscurity where he probably belongs. Good player, for sure, but CHRIST, he's as significant in beisbol history as Eddie frickin' Murray.

I'll break out the Cesar Cedeno analogies again: Cedeno for a limited period of time was Clemente with some SOCK. And the vast majority of the beisbol loving population never heard of the guy. Compare Clemente to George Scott and Clemente was a gap hitter with warning track power: Kind of like Tony Gwynn without the batting average.

But these are just stats. Gurus like YOU, obviously know better.

BTW, you didn't say shit about your stupid '20 game winners' stat that you seemed so proud of pulling out your ass.

DM, WHAT load? Red Sox haven't had 'load' since they had a fresh-faced guy named Clemens on the hill with one pinche W to go to win the big cheese. And we all remember what happened then, now, don't we?

I'd agree with the assertion that Bonds' postseason record might diminish his legend a little bit EXCEPT for the little matter of his 2002 postseason which he capped off with 4 homers in the World Series. Funny how a lot of people forget that already. He pretty much carried the Giants as far as they got, and it wasn't his fault they didn't win it all. People think "Bonds" and "postseason" and only remember the arm that turned Francisco Cabrera and Sid Bream into household names.

As far as Clemente goes, there are a few players (besides Clemente, Gil Hodges and Thurman Munson come to mind) whose legend was somewhat enhanced by their untimely deaths. No doubt, he was a great player who won a few batting titles, had maybe the greatest throwing arm of any outfielder in history and had one of the best World Series performances ever. But he only broke 20 homers in a season 3 times (that's the truth... look it up). And as far as hitting in 14 straight games over two World Series... Marquis Grissom, for one, did the same thing.

I'm not picking on you, not at all Lancer... I sense you're a Pirates fan.

Ellis STINKIN' Valentine had the greatest throwing arm ever. And he had as much or more power as Clemente. What does HE win?

Actually, I'd argue in favor of Jesse Barfield as having the greatest arm ever. But that only proves the point further.

We'll never truly be able to settle the argument Bonds vs Clemente. Clemente played in an era when the balls weren't wound as tight (i.e. juiced), the pitcher's mound was higher and far fewer runs were scored across the board (this argument is becoming ad nauseum).

We seem to be running around in circles. STEROIDS, in my opinion, are the only reason Bonds is anywhere near baseball immortality. Without the 'roids Clemente has it all over Bonds IMHO. Bonds is a self-centered, egotistical ass-wipe, but he will also go down in history as the greatest homerun hitter ever. Here's to you Barry.

Now, let's switch gears and start talking about the merits of Larry Walker...

Larry Walker, as much as any player over the last 10 years, is a product of the Coors Field effect/late '90s offensive explosion.

I believe he hit over .350 three years in a row. He's a good hitter, but he ain't THAT good.

Dude, are you retarded? What the fuck does helping earthquake victims have to do with baseball?

Retarded is someone who mistakes juiced baseballs, small parks, and diluted pitching and lower mounds for greatness.

The Baltimore Orioles had four twenty game winners that year Cuellar, Palmer, Dobson, and McNally. Look it up. They certainly didn't choke and the last two games were real wars. Barry Bonds choked. How did Bonds do in the seventh game of the world series against the Angels???? How did he do in the playoff series with the Pirates? Four meaningless home runs mean nothing to me.

As far as Valentine and Barfield having better arms than Clemente match the outfield assists against anyone (including these nothings) career wise against Clemente. You guys must be on narcotics. He could throw bullets 400' to homeplate. I have seen him do it many times. Vin Scully's choice of the greatest arm of an outfielder is of course the great one 'Roberto Clemente'.

Pittsburghers revere Clemente and yes there was one thing about Clemente and that was he was a better man than he was a baseball player. You must have never seen him play or your judgments wouldn't be so clouded by mierda.

I forgot to mention that Clemente played in Forbes Field most of his career except for the last 1 1/2 years. Not that you care about the truth but left field was 365' down the left field lines and 420' in the power alleys and 451' just to the right of center. Death to righthanded hitters. If Bonds had taken his steroids early in his career (and played there)he might have liked old Forbes Field as it was only 300' down the right field line though there was a giant ass fence (high) to block the cheap homers.

One other thing is that when Clemente was introduced by Bob Prince in the clubhouse after the seventh game victory over the heavily favored Orioles he said the following: "At the proudest moment of my life, Mother and Father, I ask for your blessing."

I admire people who walk the earth with a heart. Does it have anything to do with baseball? Now, apparently it doesn't.

(Message edited by lancer on September 04, 2004)

(Message edited by lancer on September 04, 2004)

So he was a nice guy (who died helping earthquake victims). Cool. But if you want to talk BASEBALL, if there were 8 Clementes in a batting lineup and 8 Barry Bonds', Bonds would win 13-4 every frickin' game. You might not LIKE that, but shit, man, facts are facts. I'm glad you dig his throwing arm, and all, but fuck, dude, what's more important? Hitting? Or oohs and ahhs during warm-ups between innings?

But keep talking here and we'll continue to SEE who's fucking retarded.

Pittsburghers live in fucking PITTSBURGH. Enough said about THAT.

Larry Walker is Edgar Martinez on steroids. Oh, and with an OK throwing arm.

IMHO, if you don't think bonds is one of the top 5 players ever (if not the #1), you've been toting the crack pipe too long.

The man is a freakin machine regardless of whether or not you like him.

So if Mays and Aaron and Clemente and Mantle took steroids, and played in smaller parks and had diluted pitching then they would have even more impressive stats so that mentally challenged guys like you could understand the difference. You never saw the aforementined guys play did you??? Nah, just Barry Bonds.

Barry Bonds choked as a Pirate in three playoff series. What did he do in the seventh game against the Angels two years ago? Nada!!!! He didn't do shit in any of the big games. Great players come up big in big games.

Barry Bonds chokeddddddddddddddd in big games. Give me some stats on Bonds' post season play and we will all have a big laugh.

(Message edited by lancer on September 08, 2004)

Lancer, interesting you mentioned Mays, Aaron and Clemente. I can proudly say I saw all three of those guys hit homeruns LIVE. Being an old fart does have its advantages. I even saw Jim Northrup hit a grand slam in the sixth game of the 1968 World Series. You gotta be real old to understand the significance of that--or Bob Costas...