Once a Puta Always a Puta????

Moondog's friend Ricardo says this about working girls: once a prostitute always a prostitute. When you look at the sheer economics of the profession in an emerging world country, it is hard to imagine that it could be otherwise. Take the case of my favorita for example.

Favorita is a 22 year old high school drop out. In Argentina where 70% of the population earns less than 825 pesos per month, she brings home 2,100 pesos. She is not wealthy, but lives a comfortable upper middle class life style.

To place this figure in perspective, favorita's monthly income places her in the top 10% of all wage earners, making much more than a typical college professor with a PhD, slightly more than a typical engineer and about the same as a materials analyst.

Favorita became a prostitute almost two years ago when she was left alone with a six month old baby. She is not a greedy person, choosing to work only a few days per week. In a typical month she will see 13 clients, more in November and March and fewer in December and January. For her services she will receive an average of 150 pesos per 1-2 hour session , 100 from Argentinos and 200 from gringos....

Favorita's lifestyle is the stuff most Argentinos with similar backgrounds can only imagine. She owns her own home in the suburbs. She has a nanny (ninera), cable tv, and nice clothes.

But Favorita knows she can't remain a prostitute forever. Even if she wanted to continue, eventually she will age and become less desirable. She knows this, and sometimes favorita says she plans to leave her present life behind sooner rather than later. She wants to return to school, finish secondaria (high school) and enroll in the UBA (University of Buenos Aires).

But the reality is after 4 years of study favorita will qualify for jobs paying less than she currently makes. No wonder some girls become career prostitutes.

I read a review on this board recently of one of favorita's friends. The friend is 34 years old and has been working out of the same chica bar for 11 years. Still, she looks good and, according to the reviewer, provides a great session.

I wonder if when my favorita looks at her friend she sees herself in 12 years, still working away. And when my friend's friend looks in the mirror I wonder if she thinks about a time in the not too distant future when she will no longer be viewed as desirable and must turn to another trade to make a living.

All of this raises some interesting questions...How does a girl escape? While she continues to work, how can she successfully cope? And if she does leave the puta life behind, will she be so scarred emotionally that normal relationships are impossible?

Whatcha think???????????? Any good stories about girls who made it out or not?

She was a puta even before she was a puta.

Interesting topic. Here's my take, for what its worth. And if I'm wrong, please tell me--I'd be thrilled. I've heard of a few exceptions to what I view as the rule.

I think there are many, many chicas who were scarred before they even got into the business, due to abusive, negligent childhoods. Typically, if you ask a working girl (at least in TJ, and I'll bet elsewhere) about her father, she doesn't have particularly kind things to say. When your parents don't exactly provide a healthy example of a loving relationship when you are a child, you aren't as likely to have or want your own successful intimate sexual relationships with men. Men are viewed as good for money (sometimes) and sex (sometimes), and are viewed as untrustworthy and unreliable at best. The high stakes game of being a puta does nothing to dissuade that view.

When your life is crap growing up, especially when there is sexual abuse and violence, intimacy isn't something that comes naturally or is even desired. Her expectation is that all men are dogs and that she might as well get as much as she can from them while they are around. She may very well enjoy the sex, and be loads of fun to be around, and can be higly attentive to you, and in extreme cases, marry you and have your kids. Is that a "normal" relationship?

"Normal" relationships are, on average, less likely for working girls. In the end, the sex is viewed primarily as a valuable commodity that gets them money, buys them and their children security, and provides leverage with papa when necessary. However much that is true in "normal" relationships, that tendency is on overdrive with chicas you find at your favorite bar. The same forces that got them into the business also tend to make them rather mercenary and disappointing in relationships. The point at which they inexplicably trust you the least is the time at which they are gonna do something untrustworthy...

When they choose a mate, they are likely to repeat history. Maybe there's a nice dude around who wants to play the night in shining armour or who wants to marry a hot chica who would be unattainable otherwise. (These dudes are often viewed as unfamiliar, wimpy, and easy to take advantage of. If the dude is rich enough, and not too much of a bozo, she may settle in for a long while, maybe years, until they can't stand it anymore or is able to abscond with sufficient loot). But more likely, she will fall for the same old pattern that she grew up with... a pattern that does not include successful, intimate, long-term mutual partnership and friendship. It ain't in the cards, my friends. Maybe once in a magenta moon.

So I might spin Ricardo's "once; always" statement in the following way: "She was a puta even before she was a puta."

Don't get me wrong. There are lots of working girls that I like and care for. I hope for the best in their lives. I'm not immune to the fantasy of hitching up with one of these lovely working girls and living happily ever after.

I'm still waiting to hear more than one or two convincing stories about a working girl who left the business, and who lived happily ever after in a "normal" relationship. And if you know of one, then paint the picture... What does their relationship look like? Try not to taint your description with wishful thinking.

If prostitution is the oldest profession, then this is surely the oldest discussion. Second maybe to "how not to get busted by your wife."

Ezy,

I have a good friend in Sao Paulo who met a gril at the Pizzeria(similiar to Orleans in BA). She had only worked in the business a few months when she met my friend. They now have been married for about two years and everything is going well. Perhaps she had not been in the business long enough to realy get entranced with the money.

Another case is a friend of mine in BA. She has her name(s) on every good website in BA, 5 phones, three apartments, numerous cameras, two computers, a Son, and Nanny, a car, and even goes to Chicago a few weeks out of the year to bring in some extra cash. On top of all this, she manages some younger girls on the side to help them get started.

Personally, I think the only way out is for the girls to really fall in love with a guy who can support them, and challenge them in every way. The guy will have to keep them satisfied sexually, financially, and with a deep lasting love that only comes along once or twice in a lifetime.

Ricardo is right, in that most of the girls try and leave, but always come back because the money is so good. When they get two old for the profession, they still can work it in other ways.

Take a look at Tanya who manages(or maybe owns) the Kilt in Sao Paulo. She is a beautiful woman, around 50, and runs a great club. She helps the guys and girls get along,and stays profitable in the business that way.

I think it is harder to leave the profession than to get started in it as some of the girls really enjoy it.

"I think it is harder to leave the profession than to get started in it as some of the girls really enjoy it."

I think that's totally true. And on top of that, you have generations upon generations of families who work in the business. Mothers/Aunts/Cousins teaching their daughters/nieces/cousins the ropes.

p.s. I want to be the rope.

Or the soap on the roap.

Good discussion, but it still leaves a question unanswered: what do they do once they get out of the biz? All of them grow old, so what do they do when they're 40? Sure, a few savvy ones save and invest their money, but what about the 40 y/o chicas that don't? (the vast majority, I imagine) I assume they shack up with some asshole - they must have some means of support.

I also know who Moondog is talking about. She is a businesswoman in certain ways, hardened in other ways Has managed to create multiple brands out of essentially one product-line

However in all fairness, I treat Buenos Aires as an European city which is going through really rough economic crisis.

Education is the key. I know of two maybe three chicas in Buenos Aires who are/were freelancers; had a graduate degree, a day job; and supplemented their income with some fun. They avoided internet based adv. and are/were quite discreet.

Similarly, I know a tica in SJO who left the biz (which again was part time )

London is berefit with WGs/SPs who do it for few years and get out.

Great Posts. I have no experience in this area. One might see Ezy's post as at one end of a continuum (hopefulness) vs. the other end of Dogster (skepticism) regarding long term relationships. That argument has been kicked around quite a bit on this board. It often leads nowhere as it is a case-by-case deal. Yet, the question remains what happens to ex-prostitutes?

Moondog provides one answer for some of the more able girls. Yet, the numbers wouldn't favor most becoming involved in management/supporting roles. There are far more chicas than those who work to support them. Most must leave the business due to diminishing economic returns, children, and some form non-prostitution life. If Dogster is correct about his assumptions about why most entered the profession, then the numbers who maintain normal relationships for an extended time must be quite a small percentage. The number who do form lasting normal partnerships probably have a number of variables that would make them better candidates; loving family relationships, decent childhood experience, education, better job prospects, the ability to separate money=sex of prostitution afterwards, short time in the job etc...all of these would seem to increase the liklihood of forming a successful relationship.

On the monger side I would add the age difference, cultural compatibility, childhood experience, family relationships and the ability to separate money=sex of prostitution. Simply put the prospects are slim for anyone going down this path.

This is a great thread. In TJ I have found some chicas who have great personality and great sex. If they were not prostitutes, I’d ask them to marry me in a heart beat. To be fair, I did a lot of women too. So I am really not better than they are. I always wonder if I can overcome the prejudice, what the marriage would be.

To my knowledge, the reason that the majority of the girls in TJ went into prostitution is to support their children. In Baja California, a secretary makes $1 to- $2 an hour. That’s $40 to $80 per week. A one bedroom apartment in TJ costs $300 a month. So taking a regular job simply can’t support their children. With prostitution they can make the same amount of money in an hour. Before 9/11, many chicas were making as much as $5,000 a week, although the annual incomes are not as high as we may think.

I think at least half the chicas hate what they are doing for a living. They told me they hate "f**kie suckie old men." Many do not work full time. They work several months to earn enough money then leave for a long "vacation." The longer they are on the job, the higher the client volume they have, the greater the impact on their personality. I have observed a newbie from a sweet girl to become a hardcore bitch.

Many girls are very interested in getting married to a man (customer) as a way out of a desperate situation. I have been hinted many times. Some were indeed married within months working in the zona. Some have acquired small business. A very small percentage are very comfortable with the job and became career prostitutes. The oldest one I met has been on the job for 12 years and sent two daughter to private schools.

Eventually, I think the girls will have to make a decision. If they are in business as a mean to an end, then I think their experience will have less impact to their lives. After all, time heals. On the other hand, if they cannot abandon prostitution because they want to maintain their life style, then they will be less likely to have a good relationship with their love ones.

Some great observations here guys!!!

Dogster....As much as I want to disagree, much of what you have to say has a ring of truth to it. Take, "She was a puta before she was a puta," for example. It is undeniably true that many prostitutes had poor or non-existent relationships with their fathers and view men in the ways you identify.

This having been said, it is my belief (perhaps naive belief) that many girls in emerging world countries become prostitutes for economic reasons, a willingness to do what they must do to support their children. This subset of chicas do not enter the profession emotionally crippled....and may well be able to successfully exit the profession given an economic option...

Another of your comments that I found particularly interesting was," The point at which they inexplicably trust you the least is the time at which they are gonna do something untrustworthy...."

We humans in general, not just prostitutes, perceive the world in certain ways and we go out of our way to confirm our perceptions....So if a chica's mind set is that men can't be trusted...but an individual man seems trustworthy....she may well do something very untrustworthy so that HE will respond in the way she believes men to be....In a sense she needs him to live down to her expectations, so she will do something to provoke a response that will confirm what she believes about men based upon her life experience.

I am an optimist in the sense that I do not believe all girls are similarly damaged....and that given the opportunity many of these girls can/will escape their life style....I am hopeful my current favorita falls into this category....but, Nomar, I am not so naive as to think I can live happily ever after with her....but I would like to think that with my help she can find a way out of her current life, which she says she dislikes (The realist in me thinks this is partly truth, partly fiction....yes, she hates what she does...but yes, she also enjoys the excitement and the attention she receives from men/clients).....

I have to agre with Citydude-it all comes down to education. I've found the majority of Chicas in Costa Rica can't read or write well (even though literacy is allegedly above 90%). I've found the same to be true of chicas from El Salvador, Nicaragua, Colombia, and Brasil. When I get emails they are usually illegible. I grew up speaking Spanish some at home, but I took it in school too for about 6 yrs in college and high school and I can read and write better in Spanish than any chica I've ever met.

Poor reading and writing skills eliminates them from all the decent jobs and there are few of these in Latin America anyway. I have had a few who were in school and who had a plan to get out, but even so, the money would likely keep them back in the life. I've found most of the chicas talk about being a professional or going to school, but they have no desire to work to acheive the basic skills to do it. Especially when working on the program pays so well with no training needed. Think about it-how long did you have to go to school to be where you are today? 12 yrs + college+ Grad school, maybe more. We often forget how fortunate we are to have been well educated and the many years of study required to understand the most basic things.

HC1

Back to reality, let's just enjoy the ladies.

Ok, my opinion is going to come off sounding pretty harsh, but then again reality is harsh.

"become prostitutes for economic reasons " this is a bullshit excuse

There are millions of women living in third world Latin America with families to raise. Yet, only a small fraction of these women go into prostitution. Everybody has hardship in there lives. But only the women with no pride, dignity, honor, and self-respect will sell themselves out for financial gain.

You may say that by going into prostitution they can provide better for their families ...BULLSHIT!!! All they provide is a lack of values for the younger generation to learn, and that is why many generations fallow in their mothers foot-steps.

These women became whores the second they started thinking about selling themselves out.

I would add an additional variable. Another element is that for men pursuing a prostitute, the governing fear is that they are being taken for a ride financially. For the prostitute, one predominant fear would be he doesn't love me, he loves my looks, or the fantasy I provide about his attractiveness as a mate. Beautiful non-pros go to therapy over this one all the time. If both partners do not identify and break through these rather difficult issues to establish trust, the hope for sustaining a relationship would be nil.

Ezy, I don't think you are naive. I do think we have identified very few reasons for how and why women would leave prostitution. The initial motives for entering are different as described above, but the outcomes remain obscure.

Snapper,

You say, "You may say that by going into prostitution they can provide better for their families ...BULLSHIT!!! All they provide is a lack of values for the younger generation to learn, and that is why many generations fallow in their mothers foot-steps."

Would you also say that by going to prostitutes we mongers provide a lack of values for the younger generation to learn, and that is why many generations follow in their fathers footsteps?"

Ok, I knew that somebody was going to try and point out hypocrisy in my statement. Let me just add for the record that I do not have children. And if I were lucky enough to find a woman that could show me unconditional love(doesn't exist) I would love to start a family. I would be totally dedicated to them, and no I wouldn't be whore mongering.

Since there isn't any women that can display unconditional love I feel it is ok to treat them like the whores they are ...ok,ok I do enjoy being around sex workers and I do treat them with respect, but I only view them like party favors. I know that outside of the puta bar these are people I wouldn't have anything to do with.

Ezy, you wrote:
'Another of your comments that I found particularly interesting was," The point at which they inexplicably trust you the least is the time at which they are gonna do something untrustworthy...." '

There's been personality research done on prostitutes, both in the US, Mexico, and other Latin cultures indicating that prostitutes tend to have more paranoid features than is average in the population.

A key paranoid feature is "projection," the tendency to put your own stuff on other people. For example, if she accuses you of infidelity, it could very well mean that she's boffing someone else, or at least wanting to. If she accuses you of wasting money, she's probably got problems holding on to her own money. If she accuses you of being cruel, watch your back. It is a pain in the ass to be around total paranoids for too long. First off, you always get accused of shit. They are vigilantly looking for the crack in your facade, and their spotlight-focused attention to the negative often makes them oblivious the good things in life in the process. Second off, you generally can't trust THEM.

With many of these chicas, these issues won't necessarily rise to the surface until you've known them awhile. But my guess is that massive trust/paranoia issues often fuck up their attempts at "normal" relationships with men. As many of you can attest, I'm sure.

By the way, some of you may be thinking, "the paranoia and lack of trust is justified after putting up with the prostitution business". But in fact, we are talking about a longstanding trait, probably one that originated in childhood. That hypervigilant paranoia served them well as they fought through some frightening hard times. But the problem is that they often can't turn off the switch... Their perceptions are messed up... They'll perceive their lovers/husbands as untrustworthy, regardless of the reality. That's the familiar, comfortable, safe-feeling thing to do. And they'll seek out a reality that repeats history.

What happens to these girls? I suspect that the majority of them return to the poverty they experienced before they entered the business. It can't be a pretty picture.

Yer best bet, if you want to get serious with one of these chicas, is to:

1) Not mind being a frequent punching bag, literally and figuratively. If you can put up with the constant accusations, and keep your composure, you'll eventually calm her down (until the next time...)

2) Lay down the law. She's gonna try to take advantage of you, in every which way. If you let 'er know she can't pull that crap, or yer outta there, she may respect that you aren't a chump (until next time). Better to provide a consistent, reasonable, firm level of generousness than to be constantly worked over for dinero... No more, no less.

3) Be challenging, selfish and somewhat authoritarian. She won't want you to make life easy for her. She'll want to claw tooth and nail for you and your goodies. If your generousity comes too easy to her, you are dead in the water. And that less-than-easy/nice behavior will keep her aroused. Arousal (whether for positive or negative reasons) is a good thing--she lives for that shit. If you offer assorted challenges to her, then good. The kiss of death is if she becomes bored.

4) Make sure that there's a sense of friendship growing between the two of you. Mercenaries don't automatically become your buddies just because you've married or impregnated them... You've gotta be sure it is more than another business contract, though of course there will be a contract--spoken or not.

5) Always, always, always DON'T BE A WIMP.

Come on Snapper, lighten up. What's the difference between a woman who charges you by the hour and one who changes you by the relationship? Why does a woman become valueless to you simply because she is willing to keep YOU happy without the traditional baggage?

A sense of ethics or morality that is passed on from one generation or one social group to another is more contingent upon the overall actions of a person than their expoused beliefs. I would rather hang out with a funny and intelligent prostitute than some cold and lying bible banger any day of the week. And I have far more respect for the woman who sells her body by the hour and uses the money for productive improvements to her life and that of her children than the suit&tie lawyer/politician/minister who hugs me with one arm and uses the other to pick my pocket.

Heros and villans can be found in any walk of life including prostitution. And remember, no prostitute earns her money alone. She has to have a customer. Don't let your own feelings of guilt or self disgust tinge the characters of the people you interact with.

Well said, Tight Fit

"What's the difference between a woman who charges you by the hour and one who changes you by the relationship?" IMO, there is very little difference. I actually have a lot more respect for bar girls that put the bases of the relationship up front.

I feel that you should automatically know that with a prostitute the relationship is based on two things. For the chica it's based on money. For the monger it's based on sex. I don't see how any guy could think that the chica would want you for anything more than money. As well as I don't see how a chica could view a monger wanting her for anything more than sex.

This is why I like to be around prostitutes. The relationship is simple. I want sex, and she wants money. To think that there could be any meaningful relationship based on emotion would be crazy. How could either party look past the initial bases of the relationship?

Dogster, some of what you have said sounds so fucking true. I remembered when I started going to AB and CC, many of the chicas asked if I was married and about to cheat on my wife. When my answer was a NO ESTOY CASADO, they would call me a liar, which goes to tell you just what they are (cheater, liars, drug-addicts, and some thieves). You ask your 13 year old son if he's lying to you because you know you were probably a pretty good liar when you were a teenager. My observation doesn't applied to all of course because I had the pleasure to meet some of the best chicas at those same places.

However, once someone has addictions (to cheat, lie, and drugs), you will be accussed of being the same. Habits are hard to change, so for the most part once a puta always a puta.

-Jarocho

I'm still curious about what happens to the majority of these chicas, and particular the ones who work in TJ... The point about education makes plenty of sense. But... does anybody know? Wasn't there a 60 Minutes episode about this maybe 100 years ago?

Jarocho so would you assume the reverse is possible? If the chica doesn't accuse you of lying, cheating, or using drugs that these traits aren't usual in her world?

Snapper, why would a chica call at $1.57 a min to just say hi under your relationship guide? It costs her money to do it, it doesn't increase her business. It is easy to make these things into black/white rules, but none of my personal experiences fit into all these nice neat holes. I agree a relationship can be forced into the black/white guide, but when you step into the grey area everything is so much better. So very very much better. I don't want to go back to the black/white.

Dogster, your words sound real. Like you learned them the hard way.

This is a great thread, I've thought about it many times. Some of the experiences shared here I've never seen - I hope I never do either.

Snapper, in a perfect world the man and woman in a pay by the hour relationship would each do their individual thing and then go their separate ways. But we both know that too often there are other agendas on both sides of the equation.

Guys looking for a GFE, myself included, are hoping for something that probably is never going to be there but hope springs eternal. And even if you don't pick all the right numbers on the ticket there is still the chance for something more than just the 30 minute quicky.

The number of prostitutes looking for Mr. Right is probably fairly small but it does happen. More likely is the woman who enjoys the time spent with her customer (compared to other guys) and who is willing to provide a sort of emotional picnic off the books.

Maybe the ideal situation is one where sex is part of a slightly larger relationship. Both parties know, and want, a cut off point. Boredom kills a lot of marriages.

I know that I am talking in broad generalizations, and there are always going to be exceptions. I also know that if something feels so right a guy needs to take that chance. I just get tired of seeing good guys getting mind-fucked by women.

I also feel that the day I find a sex-worker to fill an emotional void in my life is going to be the same day I will win the lotto ...and be struck by lightning.

With my luck the day I win the lotto I will be struck by lightning. Or worse, get zapped by the lightning right after I buy a lotto ticket that later comes in first place.

Hey Snapper, if you did win the lotto and dodged the lightning would you keep on paying for the same priced chicas as now or would you substantially upgrade?

I would hide the fact that I have money from everyone. If that is impossible and people find out that I do have money I would do my best to deliver my wrath to all of you by raising the prices.-lol

seriously though, if anyone ever hit they need to buy a air conditioner for Adelitas(and demand that they use it). I also think I would have to do a little globe-trotting.

Snapper, you didn't really answer Ezy's question, or at least the question he hinted at, allow me to rephrase.

Do you think less of guys that pay for sex than guys that don't pay for sex? Are they a lower class of people with lower morals?

Now avoiding relationships with prostitutes because of the complexities of the relationship or the likeliness of it turning successful is completely understandable, but holding a lower view of a prostitute as a person doesn't make much sense to me. If you are going to assign a moral value to prostitution, our hands and our character as johns who buy are no less dirty than prostitutes who sell.

My personal view, and that of many men and women around the world, is that we have a right to use our bodies as we see fit, and that the selling of one's body for sex (or the buying) is no less moral than selling one's body to construct buildings or to type letters on a keyboard. I would add that I personally believe that the art of prostitution is a whole lot more moral than manipulating accounting figures to screw thousands of people out of their savings or producing chemicals that destroy our world.

Dogster, I wouldn't be too concerned about their futures. The human spirit can be incredibly resilient. Living through hardship can also strengthen it, and as you know many prostitutes experience plenty of hardships.

I've learned a lot in my travels. I think initially many prostitutes around the world get drunk with spending money, but their visits home remind them that it's possible to survive in other ways. Some save enough to live comfortably or get by for a long time, others learn to adapt there lifestyles to get by on much less, most figure it out.

Back to Ezy's original quesions...

How does a girl escape?
Maybe there really is no need to "escape", maybe prostitution is a temporary part of their lives and many are strong enough to work things out and move on. If you can remove some of the negative connotations of prostitution which are much more prevalent given our American backgrounds, it's easier to imagine.

While she continues to work, how can she successfully cope?
Same answer as above, people learn to cope with much worse. If I asked you to think of worse situations a person can be in and still manage to get by, I'm sure you could come up with at least 100 examples if you thought carefully about it.

And if she does leave the puta life behind, will she be so scarred emotionally that normal relationships are impossible?
I don't believe so, and I think that no matter what anyone says you don't believe so either. But that said I do believe normal relationships are much more challenging for them and the guys they are involved with. Most guys that get involved do not understand the risks and obstacles and that is unfortunate.

d"Art, Great points. I agree with your view that for many this is a temporary phase in their lives and some can eventually make a transition to normal relationships. My hunch is they do better if less time is spent in it (same for mongers) and probably have a higher success rate when it is the second or third boyfriend after prostitution. Still, the transition remains unclear.

What percentage of prostitutes in Latin America work at it openly? That is, their families and friends know where the money comes from and support them anyway. This seems to me to be quite important. Would a chica be more likely to succeed in a relationship in this scenario? Or would the denial (hence distance) from family and friends make resuming a normal relationship more likely?

On the one hand in scenario one, the chica is living honestly and seemingly at peace with her decisions and its consequences. The process of understanding prostitution's impact on her life would be slower, more transparent and psycholgically safer. Hence the transition would seem to be easier even though she has been "immoral" and seemingly is a bad potential partner. In scenario two the constant pressure of leading a double life, explaining the newfound money, lying and fear of discovery would seem to be less healthy. The transition to being a potential mate would seem to be easier, if undiscovered, but would come at a heavy psycholgical price.

Any thoughts?

d'Art -No, I don't view guys that pay for sex as a lower class or as people with low morals. Nor, do I view these women as a lower class of person. I am simply saying that these women didn't need to get into this industry. It was their own choices that got them into it, and we as mongers don't need to feel sorry for them.

Ok, that sounded kinda cold.

How can they escape? ...the same way they got into it. By making a conscious decision to get out.

So many good points brought up here and by so many.

The part og getting mind-fucked sometimes i think applies to me, unfortunately. I did meet a chica in ZN, it will be 1 year ago tomorrow. We didn't hit it off right away, it took a couple of weeks to ever get her to come to my room. Then she would take no money from me, either there or at the club. At one point in time she asked me not to come to the club while she was working as it was too much of a difficulty for her to try to work while i was there.

She had finally informed her family back in GDL what she was doing in TJ, and the told her just dont tell her brother in SD. It has been a tough life for her, but the money is too good.

She is awaiting for her time to go home to GDL and buy a house and set up a shop, I just dont know if she will ever be able to leave the Zona.

After seeing her for a couple of months on the fly, she informed me that she was not interested in a "true" relationship while she was working. "it would not be fair to you, as for my line of work, i would feel as though i was cheating on you". She has had the jealousy of seeing me in the club with others also, even though that is what they do for work also.

At that point in time, i had helped her get her passport and attain a visa to come see me, both in SD and other states. Which she did do, with me supplying the RT airline ticket. Not paying her for the visit, but assisting her in some of her bills/necessities.

I have met her kids, and always anxious to see me although it has only been a couple of times. Do talk to them on the phone or at least say "Hola" on a fairly regular basis.

This past weekend is the first time that i can say that i have ever really been jealious of her, and that is because she had gone up with a friend of mine, not just a "John"

For her getting out of the Zona, do i think she has a chance? Well, yes and no. I know that is what she does ultimately want. She has talked about wanting to see me more when she is "retired", but not it is all about the money. Unfortunately i do get sucked into that sometimes. When she is not working and spending time with me and not working i feel the need to give her something for her time for not being at the club, as meaning when i am there sometimes she will not work for days.

She is also very popular, makes more money than most gringos that are her customers, but she still gets our money, so i know her intentions are there, but when will she ever leave the money. One more year she says.

As for her mental stability, she is another caloused one, she knows that it is just work. That is where she gets messed up with me, she feels bad when she sees me take another upstairs, so who knows.

...she had gone up with a friend of mine, not just a "John"

...are you friends with Ben?

Sorry not Ben..... actually I haven't met anyone from this site in TJ.
Will be back in TJ next weekend though

Slick1, Interesting...I have had the very same reaction....the only time I have been jealous/upset with my favorita was when she had a date with a friend of mine....I much prefer anonymous strangers...

Also it is interesting that after I had a date with another chica she accused me of not respecting her....similar to your friends' reaction...it's work for them, which is ok, but not ok for us since it is not work

the funny thing was that i was in TJ early for Labor Day weekend, got there on Thursday. Hooked up with my chica for a couple of hours and when she left, i went back to the club. After about 4 hours and lord knows how many drinks, i ended up taking another chica to Cabo San Lucas for the weekend. No cash exchange, i just paid expenses. So at 5 AM we were in a taxi headed for the airport in TJ to get our tickets.
When i got back to TJ my chica was asking what happened to me for the last 3 days. I did tell her, just not who with.
This past weekend i did tell her, and she said "didnt you know she is one of my good friends" so now i guess she knows what it feels like for us Hombres at times also.

Regarding "once a puta, always a puta" thesis.

First thing first. If you look at the age composition of prostitutes, the majority of them are in their 18-30 and the % of prostitutes above 30 drops precipitously. Therefore, logically speaking, the idea "once a puta, always a puta" is not supported by the fact (unless they all die young, which I doubt to be the case). Another way to put this is, as a rule, "the vast majority of putas eventually quit", and those who become career prostitutes (i.e. those who practice beyond their 30s) are more or less exceptions.

I will skip here whether they quit "successfully" or not, but let me speculate on WHY they quit. Ezy/Ricardo says, prostitution is lucrative, and these women have few other options (in the country like Mexico, there are few opportunities for women to begin with, and then most prostitutes are uneducated). These reasonings are true. But, then, there are many disadvantages to this profession. First, the job is risky. From STDs to potential encounters with violent customers. Second, it is a "dead end" job. There is no obvious possibility of promotion/advancement. On the contrary, as they age, their earning potentials decrease. To be sure, there are plenty of other jobs that fit in each category. For example, people who work on nuclear plants take risks, and most professional athletes are on "dead end" jobs. Still, if you ask prostitutes why they want to quit, they often mention these reasons.

Third (and this is is unique to prostitutes), prostitutes are morally prosecuted by the society, certainly in the US and Mexico. It would be ideal for prostitutes if the entire world thinks the way how d'Art put it, but that is not the case. My CC girl tells me how badly she is treated by other people, including doctors, landlords, even car mechanics, the moment they find out she is a prostitute. She uses the word "hypocritical" to decribe the attitude of the society toward her.

My CC chica has no "moral" qualm about selling her body. She can justify for herself the exchange of sex and money (although she thinks the job is dirty and risky). However, because of the moral prosecution by the society, she does not want to let her family members know about her job. It took three years before she finally told her mother she worked as a prostitute (and that was after the mother found her provocative dresses in her closet). More importantly, she is determined never to let her children know that she works (or once worked) as a prostitute. For this, she has now gotten to the critical juncture. Her cover to the children is "waitress", but her older child, a five-year-old son, is now at the age when he started asking questions like "mom, why do you work all night?" and "you look good in that dress".

This is the biggest reason why she wants to quit.

Bryon well put!
My AB chica's children also are starting to ask the same things.
Unlike most she is educated, therefore should have other options when she retires.
You are very right about being a dead end job "I guess she cant sleep her way to the top"
Slick

Her covering the fact up that she is a prostitute is a waste of time. The five-year-old boy will soon enough realize that waitresses don't ware provocative dresses and that bar-girls do.

Point well put, that is why many girls change clothes at the bar instead of their house.
Slick

Then the kids would figure out that waitresses don't bring duffle-bags to work.

Snapper you are one smart man
If i run into you I will buy you a drink
Slick

I went home with a "stripper/puta" and her sister (the same) the other night on a social errand.

Neither one had duffel bags.

One has a 5 year-old daughter and a 3 year-old son.

She only works til 9 pm on weekends (usually) and works no double shifts.

Maybe it'll take a while for them to catch on..??

Pauncho

You know what I'm saying. It is naive to underestimate the intelligence of children. It seems that Mexican kids gain street knowledge much faster than must Americans do. They'll catch on sooner than you'd think.

On HOW they quit.

I don't have any stats to back it up, but my observation is, most often, chicas quit when they get newly married. This is presumably for two reasons. First, they gain husbands who will financially support them. Second, prostitution is detrimental to any relationships, and (especially newly wed) husbands want their wives quit. These reasons are sort of obvious, but I still think they give chicas enough incentives (and the methodology) to quit, at least for a while.

Nomar poses interesting questions related to this matter. Although it is practically impossible for a working girl to keep hiding her job to (adult) family members who live with her, such as her husband, his two scenarios are applicable as to "where" chicas look for their novios/BFs/dates who might become potential husbands. Namely, (1) chicas date guys who come to the bar. (2) chicas date guys who they meet outside the bar.

I have met at least three TJ chicas who told me they do the scenario (1). They say, they would hate to "break the news" to the men who they date. They would rather let guys know they are dating prostitutes from the beginning.

I also met one chica who was doing (2). She told me she was dating a guy she met in San Diego (she could cross). The guy did not know her job. She thought he was seriously about her, and might be making a marriage proposal. She told me she "had to" tell him the secret before that happened. She was obviously struggling with the burden.

I didn't see her for a while. When she came back to the bar after six months, I asked her what happened with the guy and marraige. She said, she visited his home country in the Middle East, and marriage was still a possibility. However, she had not been able to break a news to him. This is how heavy their burden is.

Byron, Great responses. Do you think the relationship has a greater chance of success in the case where the prostitution experience is openly acknowledged? My guess would be yes. You can always move away from social ostracism, time covers up your former life, you make new friends. Yet, in the second case the pressure of maintaining the secret, the psychological baggage, and lack of trust would more seriously hinder the relationship. It seems that many chicas work far from home towns and have made up ridiculous stories of what they are doing. They then have to cover their asses with all sorts of tales for things like phone calls, strange hours, newfound money, when someone visits them in the new city etc..Relationships to succeed need a lotta help from a network of family and friends, marriages don't exist in a vacuum. One reason the divorce rate is so high in the highly mobile modern USA is that we don't have the same extended kin networks that provided a superstructure for the relationships of our grandparents. So with pursuing a chica is your deal, one way to measure the likelihood of success might be ask yourself as to how you are interacting with her family and friends (and vice versa) and is the support network there despite her former profession? If you are partners in maintaining a lie, less probability of success. Less still, if she deceives the guy outright. Guesses only.