Well, 6 times in the Pro Bowl does not equate decent, it means he was one of the 3 best backs in his conference during those years. I think they are equal as backs but Martin does have the edge as a receiving back.

And as for playing pee wee footbal....lol..I played high school QB....not a high level grant you, but playing organized football for 8 years compared to none is a difference. It doesnt make me an expert but does make me understand an aspect of the game that you never could Porker. And as for being a dumb jock, pass the California Bar Exam, then talk shit.

Actually for pure talent at RB I'll take Gayle Sayers over any other on the list. I'm surprised he's not in your top 10 DM. Then I am a bit older than y'all .

He had a pathetic O line and had no Q back or passing game to loosen the D, yet he single handedly dominated virtually every game until his knee was blown out for the second time. He essentially had to face 8-9 guys in the box his whole career.
I saw the game he scored 6 TDs in the deep mud against the 49ers and doubt I will ever see another performance like that one again.

Watch the original Brian's Song and tell me who else could make moves like that ?? Just my 2 baht.

Test edit :-)

(Message edited by ModeratorK on March 21, 2006)

Bla.., err, AL, you're obviously more impressed by the pro bowl than I am.

And yeah, all California lawyers are geniuses. Did Willie Banks ever pass?

Porker- I was a huge fan of Bo thru college and then pro, so I am quite biased. In fact, IMHO he was the greatest athelete I've ever seen in person (yes, and I was in awe) or on TV (still in awe). Some times greatestness is cut short for whatever reason, but Bo KNEW football and I don't idolize many folks. I'm sure not many experts will agree with me putting him in the top 10, but that's why it's the DM list and not ESPN,NFL,FOXSPORTS, etc lists.

As for LT-- for him to make the list, someone has to be cut. Given Marshall is my 10th pick, LT has got several more years at this pace before he outdoes Marshall IMHO. Talent wise LT is right there in the pack with Faulk.

KM-- I deliberated putting in Sayers on my list due to rep. My only exposure to him was Brian's Song, so while admitedly deserving, he didn't make the cut due to my own experience (or lack thereof).


Blazers-- The fact that I was an avid jock till college and took seasonal turns dreaming of being the next Fred Biletnikoff and Bobby Orr really has no bearing on Fan opinion about who is better. Hell many armchair QBs know a HELL of a lot more about stats and other worthless info than the actual players. What I did gain by playing is an apprecriation of the athleticism and drive is takes to succeed in sports. I was lazy (relatively speaking) and my talents got me a walk on spot as a bench warmer 1 year in college (DIV 3). Now that fact doesn't really make my opinion that Bettis is a slug any more valid-- now does it? BTW-- brains and lawyers? is that suppose to be a riddle?

DM
I figured that you were just a bit young when Sayers was running all over the rest of the league. Too bad he had those devastating knee injuries. The fact he was a first ballot hall of famer with a very short career says it all in terms of what kind of talent he displayed . Had he stayed healthy or had any kind of support his numbers would have been astronomical.

As you correctly state -- It's your friggin list .

WOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOO

Luck finally runs out and the Wicked Witch
THe New England PAts are Dead!!!

Blazers wrote a month ago
Well Mando, as a fellow Steeler fan I will disagree with you to a certain extent. One thing is for certain...nobody is going to beat Indy this year.


Unfortunately he was way wrong and THe AFC title game will be between two teams I hate. I guess I hate Denver more but we will see game day.

And max I believe I said beware-- "on any given day.."

The pats aren't dead, they are catching their breath from the previous SB wins.

Another bullshit game where a team does not show up.

Carolina is losing right now because Delhome is playing like he has been paid to throw the game.

He never plays like this ever in his life

Seahawks and Pitt in the SuperBowl?

How friggin boring

Pitt is there because according to Ben , Nick Carter stupidly cut the wrong way on the Bettis fumble.

Sad sad sad

If it is Pitt and Seahawks it may be the first Super Bowl ever in my life I miss as I could care less about either team and don't like either team.

Thank God for Steve Smith just ran it back as I was typing

It would be nice to have other than a fourth string back starting.

Come on Panthers get your shit together.
You can come back and win.

Pittsburgh is there because they are the best team in the AFC.....plain and simple Maxy. They beat the top 3 seeds on the road and wont the games not because of fluke special teams or fumbles, they got there by outplaying the other team at all phases of the game.

Max
Actually it was a carbon copy of his performance in the first Bear's game. Put a bit of pressure on Delhomme and he becomes totally unglued. He needs to have perfect pocket protection to be effective - not always possible obviuosly. Obviously did not help that he had no running game to fall back on , but that was not an excuse the first time he played the Bears. He just cannot play well if he is rushed or hurried .

Blazers, what you said cannot really be argued, and the Steelers need to be recognized for their awesome run through the gauntlet of what were supposedly the NFL's best teams. If everyone was right and the AFC was truly superior to the NFC this season (and the past several), Pittsburgh should easily win the Bowl. Seattle can obviously play a little bit, though, so who knows?

They're big and bold, they're black and gold!!!
Steelers All the Way!!!

I'm happy to see the two teams in there-- they both earned their stripes so-to-speak. I'm going to have to go with Seattle though!

(Message edited by donmarco on January 23, 2006)

It is gratifying to see my Steeler's win the big game even though I was not impressed with their performance. Pittsburgh's best weapon was Seattle's bad judgement.

It was fun, though, to see the look on my buddy's face when I called the reverse/ pass play about 10 minutes before it happened. Most people don't know that there are 3 quarterbacks on Pittsburgh's offensive team, so itwas a pleasure to see that play executed so brilliantly!

GO STEELERS!

And defended so pathetically.

The whole world (other than the Seachickens secondary) saw that play coming just about at the snap of the ball.

The Steelers were clearly outplayed overall and had the game handed to them . One of THE most boring Stupor Bowls I have ever seen and I had $500 on the Steelers !

Slash #2. Hopefully the steelers will have some common sense and dump him in the off season and spend their $$$ wisely (DBs and a WR free agent).

Well, 6 times in the Pro Bowl does not equate decent, it means he was one of the 3 best backs in his conference during those years.

The Pro Bowl's a fucking joke. Further evidence, as if any was needed:

"Tennessee quarterback Steve McNair was added to the AFC's Pro Bowl roster Tuesday as a replacement for Denver's Jake Plummer, who won't play due to an injury."

"he started 14 games in his 11th NFL season, throwing for 3,161 yards in the fifth-highest total of his career. He was 292-of-476 with 16 touchdowns and 11 interceptions."

Too bad my grandmother's dead, looks like they could use her in this joke of a 'game'.

Why do I get the feeling Duante Culpepper will enjoy the pussy cruises out of Miami a lot more than ones on Lake Minnehaha?

Why was it always reported that Terrell Owens and his ego were the problem in Philly? What about the ego of a coach willing to sacrifice his team's season by suspending the team's best player and the League's best receiver for shit like dress code violations and parking in team officials' parking spots? 6-10, Andy? Nice job! Also, if the QB and the WR aren't speaking, doesn't the QB bear ANY of the responsibility in that situation? McNabb got off scot fucking free. And Owens was right about him being gased in the biggest game of either of their lives while Owens was the one busting his fucking ASS to get back from injury before the Super Bowl.

Owens is surely a primadonna, often shows bad taste and judgement and there's always a risk that he'll be a cancer on any team he goes to. But Jesus Christ, if there was EVER a TALENT to gamble on in the NFL, why the hell WOULDN'T teams fall all over themselves to get somebody that good? I'd have sent Philly a used ball bag to keep Owens under his current contract. Now he's 'free' to the first team to suck his dick.

Dante looks like a great fit in Miami, if Ricky's healthy, watch out for these guys in the east-- they finished strong last year. Plus Miami has damn fine pussy. Shit-- some guys have all the luck.

RE: Owens. If I was an owner, I would of been sending ho's over TO's house as soon as he was suspended last year to stay in his good graces. He was right all along and he is the best receiver in the NFL... hands down. The c-boys almost put themself in a spot that they NEED to sign some receivers and my boy Drew don't have too many years left in the tank. I love to see the big O to go to a team with a legit 2nd receiver tho, such as miami-- that would be scary (chambers/owens combo with a QB that can roll). NE receiving core was borderline crap before and now had lost givens, but the Pats ain't FA players... Let's see in Billy Boy got an Ace hidin' in his ass in the draft or some deals...

This off season and free angency suck... I hate the constant coming and goings of stars.

Don Marco
Before you get too excited about dolphins, ricky tested positive so see you later in 07

Brown is a better back than Williams anyway and is younger and I dont think Dolphins are done yet with free agency.

With regards to best receiver, I would still take Chad Johnson over him right now but not by much.

Brown is good, but he ain't going to hammer it all day and wear down folks. Sure Ricky lost some, but he's got plenty in the tank if he chooses to hit it (that remains to be seen).

Chad vs. the big O? Based on what? personality? dick size?


Since chad only has 5 seasons under his belt, here's the last 5 seasons of data:


name, games, rec, yards, TDs
Big O, 66, 397, 5777, 58

hangin' Chad, 76, 379, 5556, 34


Now, looks to me like O "S"ignificantly out produced him -- especially when factoring in he played 15% less games in the same time period (due to phili's moronic management). O is truly MR TD-- freak of nature.

Last 5 years yes, no doubt. But I am talking about right now and right now I believe CJ is better, statistics aside. Remember, Owens has been the only decent receiver his entire career and had Steve Young, Donovan McNabb and Jeff Garcia(all pro bowlers). Chad Johnson hasnt had a good QB until this year and he had the best statistical year of any WR as a result. Houshmenzada(sic) is a pretty good receive and has gained 1,000 yards and is better than any supplemental receiver that Owens has had.

Sure you can make the argument that Owens was constantly double-teamed but when you are the only guy to throw to, you will have unreal stats. I did think up until last year that Owens was the best in the business but now Johnson is younger and peaking and slightly better.

I don't think that Ronnie Brown is better than Ricky Williams. He might be, but, if so, he sure as hell didn't show it this season. I think marijuana (and all drugs) should be legalized. I, personally, don't like the stuff. I was offered it multiple times tonight at my team's pool match. I refused, not for moral reasons, but for the fact that I hate hippies and every time I've tried the stuff it left me feeling tired/head-achey and/or ridiculously and unhappily fucked up. That's my rather long-winded (and drunkenly incoherent) way of saying that Ricky Williams is an outstanding running back who has a really stupid problem over a really stupid (in my opinion) drug.

As to Chad Johnson vs. TO. I should probably love Chad Johnson more than anyone else on this board. He helped me win 66,000 baht in my fantasy league (He was no Larry Johnson, but "The Aristocrats" couldn't have done it without him). To say that he's better than TO, though? TO is a physical juggernaut. Corners are, generally, four inches shorter than him. And he's buff. He can straight arm safeties to the ground. I've never seen anyone better, after the catch. Yeah, he's sort of a dick. But in terms of sheer talent (and I like Chad Johnson, alot) I'll take TO. You're right on one point, though, Johnson is younger. And his cousin is even a bigger dick than Owens.

Manos.

"But I am talking about right now and right now I believe CJ is better, statistics aside."


Well, based on what they have actually done, I rest my case. Now if your looking into the Blazers crystal ball (cuz your not extrapolating data as O has shows no signs of slowing down), then perhaps, but then again if your crystal ball was worth a shit, you would be a billionaire picking stocks and wagering.


You mentioned he played with young, but he retired in 1999, so any data from that period was not included. If you think Garcia is pro bowl, please-- Kitna is better. Garcia made it for a couple years solely due to TO (what happened to his career without TO?). You Say McFlab? What happened to him without TO on the field (80's QB rating prior to TO, 100+ with TO, sand lot rating post TO) See a pattern here?

hangin' Chat is prime time, but IMHO still a cut below TO who is perhaps one of the all time best.

As for Williams vs. Brown, last year what did we have? A young, fresh Brown at the peak of his physical skills and an older, rusty, dopy, withered (lost 40 pounds) Williams... Guess what, although simular, Ricky posted slightly better #s in terms of productivity. if Ricky gets back to 75% and lays off the dope, then he's back in the top 5 backs in the NFL.

Mano, you hate hippies? Why is that? Free love, sex, world peace, etc, etc sure sounds like a good experiment to me. At the very least, i give 'em credit for passing the pussy around.

DM's about the only guy in the universe that would prefer Ricky W. to Ronnie Brown right now, especially since Ricky's about ready to take anothe long vacation. The comparison of their relative skills right now isn't even really close. Brown's a stud and Ricky's just some backup type. If you're going to judge Brown on his rookie numbers, then why not to compare them to Ricky's? Brown's were better.

Chad Johnson's good, but Owens' TD numbers make Johnson look ordinary. And the comment about Owens' QB's being made by him are accurate, for the most part. He didn't single-handedly make for a dominant passing game, but he was certainly the MAN in it. It's funny how no else wants to give you credit for that when you're patting your ownself on the back.

66K baht? I could use that kind of scratch! Mano P, want some REAL competition in your league next year?

What can I say, I'm a loyal fan of certain guys and stick through them till the end. Ricky ain't done yet.

If one gets suspended from the NFL for a year, can they still play Arena football or NFL Europe or Canadian (12-hosers on a field) Footbal League? If so, sounds like DM will have lots of fun cruising the 700's numbered sports channels for glimpses of his idol!

Of course one might be just as likely to run into him in an opium den in Asia somewhere!

Porker, unfort for fans good ole ricky is more content NOT playing than he is playing. I can respect a man that would rather be in SEA than working in the USA... then agian, I ain't getting paid what he was/is.

"Williams plans to travel in Asia after his yoga retreat in India"


go ricky go! I'll see you in cambo soon and the dope is on me!

You guys remember the movie Major League?
Next season myself and the other New England fans will be saying "Who are these fucking guys"

Will Brady be the oldest guy in the squad ?

My prediction is Az will be the most improved team in the NFL and will make the playoffs
And speaking of AZ the Chargers will fold like a deck of cards. No pun intended
And Bill Parcells will pull his hair out and will not be a Cowboy in 2007.

Funny, Milkman, how about the football version, the horribly UNfunny "The Replacements"?

The Patriots have been the Anti-Redskins thus far in the last week. But even with the Redskins genius triumvirate of Gibbs, Saunders and Williams and the vast improvement expected in Miami next year, is there ANYONE that would bet that the 'Skins will be better than the Pats?

The issue with Bill, and I love the guy as a coach, is that he finds quick sucess drawing on "his" men who willfully follow him around. Problem is that all "his" men are in nursing homes now on crutches. The 'boys haven't added any major talent to the team overall since he's been there except some waning oldies and a couple decent picks. For whatever reason, Bill way underutilizes his best weapon.


yes, I am already wondering what the fuck the pats will look like. I think they will manage an OK year for the folks they have, but I'm expecting a down year once again. No shock that they are well coached and will eek out something respectable as they managed last year. They have lost way too much talent in 3 years tho and have too many gaps.


SD: Love LT, but fire Marty or stay down with the dogs.


Wash: could be something, but then again folks say that every year and the Skins waste 1/2 a season finding themselves year in and year out(and go nowhere).


AZ: they will always suck, this year will be no different.


Miami: give em a wide receiver and watch out.

Indy: can they manage to fuck up AGAIN? I hope not for Manning's sake-- fans will lynch him.

Ok
What about the Cowboys ?
First off they have one of the greatest QB's in history. Now I may catch some shit for that but look at his numbers. Problem is he has had very few go to guys in his career. Yea in His NE days he had soem decent recievers but other than that he has had crap to throw too!
Now he has tuff guy Terrell Owens who will probably help Bledsoe throw 30tds this year!
Bleddy will retire with well over 50k yards thrown and 300 plus TDs. This guy is going to the hall of Fame and I think he is going to push the Boys to the playoffs this year.
If they can balance with some russian and defense watch out!

I love Drew, but that's a little bit of a stretch (one of the greatest).

He's had pretty good weapons at his disposal-- price and moulds were in their prime, the pats had functional guys, and at the 'boys he's had soem servicable wr's. I like the move as TO is the all time best and it will certainly help them. Drew won't take nicely to TOs bitching about the ball and his tosses tho, but I think it will work out fine (as long as Bill doesn't blow a gasket). They have all the weapons, and it will be up to the D (they lost some speed), and the O to execute.

I wish them all the best, it would be nice to see some swagger coming out of Dallas once again.

I have NE Bias being raised there my whole life
He had some nice weapons but nothing like Terrel Owens. If he can keep his trap shut they will do just fine and like you said as long as the D holds up they can be 11-5 Wishfull thinking ?

One of the best? Again NE Bias but when you look back when he retires and check out his numbers they will rank in the top 10 in most categories

And Bill blowing a gasket? I thought that was a given

Well being a Bostonian, not many have as much bias as myself. He's around #50 in terms of QB rating for all NFL passers with over 1500 attempts. I like him and always have-- gritty pocket passer w/ good arm. Plus he's a hell of a nice guy.


the 'boys stand as good a chance as any at this point.

Ok Just heard the Colts signed Vinatieri. I have no idea what the Pats are thinking?? Maybe it's time to be a Texans fan ?
Can I get some guesses to what their record will be? 8-8? or is that wishfull thinking?
Or will they surprise everyone and be 12-4 and take another superbowl?

Milky, not this year. Things are looking bleak-- they lost: WR Cedric James; LB/DE Willie McGinest; CB Duane Starks; LB Chad Brown, TE Fauria, WR Givens, and K Vinny, and added NO ONE. They lacked depth last year and any bonehead HS coach can do the math this year. Not sure what they are thinking-- perhaps past magic acts have gone to their head! Then again, luckily they are in the AFC east where mediocre teams abound.

I gota hope the colts can win one. Too bad edge will be wallowing in AZ and watching it from afar. I've got a thing for rbs with dreads.

Cowboys and Skins stand a good chance contending.

Seattle's D looks too weak to go all the way-- sorry a great RB only carries you so far. Their D wasn't all that good last year and this offseason they let go two vets (dyson and sharper).

I see Miami inflicting some damage.

Can Cleveland gel with all their new aquisitions-- if so, they are definetly on the upswing.

Steelers will be in the hunt, but lightning won't strike twice.

Chicago has been dormant all offseason, expect some wins due to schedule and their D, but as you saw last year-- they are going NOWHERE FAST unless they can manage to control the clock a little.


Denver, Pats, Eagles, Vikes, and SD (P. Rivers as starting QB when the time to win is NOW-- hello marty anyone home?) all going down.


My sleeper pick is Cincy if palmer pulls out of the shadows. They added some interesting picks to bolster their secondary. if palmer doesn't come back 100%, they are dogs.

DM
Don't wite off Da Bears yet. They just signed Brian Griese so now have a legit backup QB when Rex Glassman goes down in pre season again. Cedric Benson should be available for the full season along with Robt Thomas to solidify the running game . Their reciever corps remains the big question. Was Mustafa Muhamed a sham at Carolina - I don't think so. I look forward to a big year !

Disclaimer--
Chicago Bear and Cub fans think every year is THE year .

I actually like Greese, he showed some streaks of what he is capable of a few years ago. I'm not sure why he's foundering so much over his career and coaches don't seem all that impressed with him either. Like I said, they need to control the ball, so a consistent running game with a lot of screen passes/quick outs could be enough. Think Giants w/ Sims and Anderson.

The Giants never won anything with Simms and Anderson. BTW, I believe that the 1991 Super Bowl was the first time that a team won with their backup quarterback AND running back.

Anderson was their back in SB '90 (not '91) and he ran for over 100 yards vs a very tough Buffalo D line. Hoss was their QB in that victory. Simms set an efficiency record in Super Bowl XXI a few years earlier with morris as his primary back. Regardless, the point remains the same.





(Message edited by donmarco on March 23, 2006)

One correction, you said they never won anythnig with simms/Anderson--although sidelined in the SB you mentioned he did manage to get them there and passed for 15TDs w/ only 4 ints. The team went 13-3 and he started 14 games. Anderson played in every game that year and ran for 11 td's. Looks to me like they won "something" with the tandem.

wow-- what a great fit "gimme the damn ball" johnson and the pathers is. Perfect fit for their system and QB. if their back/s stay healthy, they are definetly in the mix.

Hope Big Ben is ok-- he was in a motorcycle acident without a helmet and met a car head on. Go figure, ben and I have identical bikes-- he's a man with good taste... I ride with a helmet tho.

Hope all You Stellar fans like Charlie Batch as your new QB !!

Big Ben was cut off by an old lady - sounds familiar as this is eaxctly what happened in my one and only bike crash . Gotta get these old bitches off the road !!

broken nose and jaw and some elacerations. No injuries to any tendons, cartilege or muscle. No broken bones or fractures. Maybe the guy is actually Superman. He will be ready by the beginning of camp.

Sorry guys, he will be back to win more SB's. He did it with an average team so what makes you think he wont do it when they are loaded with talent. He starts his 3rd season with a starting record of 27-4...that is insane.

They better make sure that he doesnt even look at a motorcycle ever again or he forfeits his contract.

When did the Steelers get "loaded with talent"? I won't be placing any money down until i see him take a NFL hit.