At what part were you kicking my ass, S?

We were discussing about the Sox' judgement regarding Pedro vs Clemens at the time they switched from Clemens to Pedro. Then, you raised the number of WS wins each had as a part of the discussion. I pointed out that was an irrelevant number regarding the Sox' judgement of these two pitchers.

The only thing that matters is, which pitcher has been better?

You always seem to miss the point Byron. I did not say Clemens was better. That was not my argument. I said it was not a "no-brainer" like you said it was.

The overall stats since '97 favor Pedro, but not really by that much except in ERA. Besides, Clemens left in '97 when Pedro was still with the Expos. There is no way you can say the Red Sox let Clemens go because they were planning on getting Martinez. No way. I can see them saying it in hindsight, but no way could they have said they would get Pedro an entire year before they did!

Clemens V. Pedro 1997-2002

Clemens
96-36; 3.35 ERA; 1202.7 Innings; 205.67 K's/Year; 3 Cy Young Awards

Martinez
91-32; 2.38 ERA; 1108.8 Innings; 235.83 K's/Year; 3 Cy Young Awards

It does not look like that much of a no brainer to me, even if I buy your argument that they got rid of Clemens with the intent of signing a guy who was not even available until a year later.

-Superman-

Hey guys I thought this board was a no flame zone.I guess not when it comes to talking baseball.I was 86 Mets season ticket holder so I think I,m a little qualified on this one.I think for that one year they were one of the great teams.They just refused to lose the big games.It's difficult to compare because basball has changed so much from the 80's to 90's.A lot more power now smaller ballparks so you really can't compare stats.I'd say it would be a much more exciting WS than the one they had in 2000,and leave it there.They were both clearly the best teams for the years they won it.

Hey guys I thought this board was a no flame zone.I guess not when it comes to talking baseball.I was 86 Mets season ticket holder so I think I,m a little qualified on this one.I think for that one year they were one of the great teams.They just refused to lose the big games.It's difficult to compare because basball has changed so much from the 80's to 90's.A lot more power now smaller ballparks so you really can't compare stats.I'd say it would be a much more exciting WS than the one they had in 2000,and leave it there.They were both clearly the best teams for the years they won it.

Billfromreading great post.
What a breakdown.
I am a huge Mets fan and have been since 85.
Rafael Santana - lol what was his best year for average .087 ?
Hmmm , Jeter or Rafael? what a desision to make !!

Yes they should have one more championships !!
But they had some trouble with Chemistry and i do not mean coke problems either.
What about the 91 mets !! ouch !!
Remember the book the worst team money can buy ?
That was a sad year.

What about this year ?
I am still very suprised , Rey Ordenez is hitting for more power than Moe Vaughn.

Well take care
Dogster

You obviously don't know how to interpretate stats, S.

Comparing W-L records for pitchers pitching for two different teams is all but meaningless, without ajusting for run support and bullpen strength (especially when you include Pedro's 97 with the hapless Expos.)

If you are familiar with sabermetrics, then one run difference in ERA through 1100 innings will give Pedro the edge for 122 pitching run advantage over Clemens. That's huge (hopefully, Farsider knows what I am talking about).

No matter how you anlayze it, Pedro's last 5 years have been one of the best pitching performances in the history of baseball. His 2000 could even have been THE best season ever for a pitcher, (after adjusting for different eras, needless to say). That year, his opponents collectively hit 163/213/259 (in BA/OBP/SLG). Do you realize how ridiculous these numbers are?

Add the fact that Pedro is 9 years younger than Clemens. This was a NO BRAINER.

By the way, my "no brainer" comment was purely on the comparison of "Pedro vs Clemens". I was not talking about Duquette's reasoning of letting Clemens walk. I made it clear Duquette's primary motivation was simply to get rid of Clemens, not necessarily because of the tactical consideration.

Having said that, Duquette always had an inside track for obtaining Pedro from the Expos. Before he came to Boston, Duquette was an Expo GM, and he obtained Pedro from the Dodgers.

I think I have a fairly good grasp of stats. I can "interpretate" them even.

Byron said: "Look at their numbers. It's not even close. Pedro flatly dominates."

The stats are right there in B&W. Clemens has 5 more wins, 4 more losses, gives up almost 1 more earned run per game, pitches more innings, and gets an average of approx 1 strikeout per game less then Pedro.

Pedro is better, but "flatly dominates?" Not even.

You also say Pedro has 10 years left ... you really think skinny little Pedro is going to pitch until he's 40? I doubt it ... even if he does it won't be with the Red Sox. The Yanks will probably need another starter by the time he's a free agent.

How about Sterling Hitchcock plunking Jeromy Burnitz in the head tonight. LOL. I love the Yankees. Now, WHAT ARE THE METS GONNA DO ABOUT IT???

-Superman-

Classic. The Mets lead until the 9th inning and then the Yanks rally to win in 10. Ex-Met Robin Ventura hits the 2 run homer to win it! LOL. Adding insult to injury, the Yanks bean Burnitz in the head. Clemens V. The Mets tomorrow ... I'm thinking brawl.

-Superman-

If one run difference in ERA does not convince you, then I give up.

Or maybe not.

There are various ways for quantitating pitchers' "values". One way is to calculcate (leagueERA - pitchers'ERA)*IP/9. This is called "pitching runs". For the last five years, AL's ERA is about 4.70. With this formula, Clemens' pitching runs for the last five years (using your numbers) is 180. Pedro's pitching runs is 285. So, Pedro's value is more than 50% higher than Clemens'.

If you like to know more about pitching runs, see http://www16.brinkster.com/bbstats/statistics/3yearpr.html

Wow! I'm at Shea Stadium for seven hours and come back to an explosion of posts in this thread.

The Mets got shafted when Cedeno was called out in the ninth inning. The replay clearly shows he was safe and it probably cost them the ballgame. HOWEVER, the Yankees are the better team this year so they deserve (and got) the benefit of the doubt on that close call (just like the Lakers benefitted versus the Kings).

Concerning tomorrow, I have a feeling that there won't be any fisticuffs because the League is paying too much scrutiny now and who is going to want to risk a big fine and suspension. Also, the Met starter Estes wasn't even a Met two years ago during the original incident which gives him even less incentive to do anything. Put yourself in the position of Estes; would you do anything? But if something does happen, my money is on MO VAUGHN who could probably kick every Yankee's butt singlehandedly. And if anything happens in TJ, my money is on the Mets fans because El Fuego is a big Met fan and nobody messes with him.

Actually, there WAS a bit of a brawl at Shea tonight, but it occurred after the game outside in the parking area. I felt bad for the guy with the Yankee cap who took two haymakers in the face. The word was that he was celebrating too obnoxiously and antagonistically in the face of some Met fans (that wasn't you, was it Superman?).

This is common behavior with many arrogant Yankee fans: victory is not enough; they still feel a need to kick the opponent when they're down (bully behavior, just like their idol Clemens). I'm sure that the psychologists out there have a specific name for this character flaw (probably due to a lousy childhood).

Being objective, it was another classic game, but a totally expected script and result because the Yankees are obviously the better team this year. So no surprise. Of course, the bit of pain for Met fans from tonight's loss is about .00001% of the pain that the Yankee fans still feel after CHOKING in last year's World Series (they're probably trying to take their frustration out on Met fans).

Hey Superman, Byron IS right (although I don't agree with his personal attack on you and any name calling): a 1-run difference in pitcher ERA is HUGE! And I mean REALLY HUGE. Pedro over Clemens IS a no-brainer. For you to disagree with that makes me seriously wonder about your knowledge and understanding of baseball, and your objectivity in this thread.

Farsider, Billcink is absolutely correct. The 1986 Mets refused to lose. You can not quantify that factor by a positional analysis. It can never be proven of course, but I'd be willing to bet that the 1986 Mets would have beaten anybody that year. Magic plus equivalent talent always beats equivalent talent.

A Wet, tired, and going to bed kind of guy,

Out-of-Towner

For all Pedro's dominance in ERA, it has translated into 5 less wins, 4 less losses, and 2 less World Championships than Clemens. Wow. If the Red Sox had traded Clemens for Pedro straight up, I would call it a no-brainer trade. An old guy for a young guy with better skills is always a good bet.

Unfortunately, that's not how it happened. Clemens left at the end of '96. Pedro was an Expo and Roger was a Blue Jay in '97 ... the Sox did not get Pedro for an entire season after Clemens left. Another classic blunder, as Red Sox management thought he was finished ... 96 wins, three Cy Young awards and 2 World Championships say differently.

To properly judge the Red Sox "Clemens for Pedro" scenario, you have to factor Clemens 1997 Red Sox replacement into the mix in place of Pedro ... Aaron Sele had the most wins, so we'll use him (13-12, 5.38 ERA, 177.3 IP, 122 SO). This is a fair comparison, because the Toronto Blue Jays finished 2 games behind the Sox that year, so you can say Clemens 1997 Toronto numbers would have been similar had he played 1997 for Boston instead. It's not like he was on a better team.

Clemens (Since He Left)
96-36; 3.35 ERA; 1202.7 Innings; 205.67 K's/Year; 3 Cy Young Awards

Martinez/Sele (Clemens Replacements as Sox Ace)
87-36; 2.96 ERA; 1045.0 Innings; 205.33 K's/Year; 2 Cy Young Awards

So, if Boston had just kept Clemens and never acquired Pedro, they would have gotten 9 more wins from their ace, given up only .39 in ERA, gotten 157.7 more innings (the equivalent of 17.5 complete games!!), gained .34 more strikeouts per game, and one more Cy Young Award. It's not such a no-brainer after all, huh?

Yeah, yeah ... new math freaks and Scientologist wackos can check the alignment of the stars and add thousands of variables into the mix, but in the end numbers are numbers.

Obviously, if Pedro plays a few years for Boston at a high level after Clemens retires from baseball, it will move into more of a good move for Boston. Unfortunately you can't count the future, because it's an unknown. Right now, as it stands, the Red Sox would have been better off keeping Clemens. Heh heh. I love it.

-Superman-

-Superman-

Superman, you can't accurately compare pitchers by using wins because some pitchers get a lot more run support from their teammates than others do. ERA is a MUCH better stat to use. But you don't seem to understand that point, which seems surprising because you seem to be an otherwise intelligent and informed sports fan.

Nice composite photo. But you seem to be an admirer of the headhunting bullying tactics of Clemens (unless you're simply trying to be inciteful instead of insightful, which is getting tougher to determine in this thread). Even the diehard Yankee announcers on the most popular NY sports radio station disapprove of what Clemens did to Piazza.

I'm a firm believer in karma. What you sow is what you will reap. Clemens (and all of the people who applauded him purposely hitting Piazza in the head which could have ended his career or life) will eventually get what they deserve, if not today then somewhere in the future (although maybe Clemens got it already when the Mets ripped his heart out in 1986).

Here's my prediction for today: don't be surprised if Clemens makes the first close pitch today (in order to get the umpires to issue a warning to prevent any further headhunting from either team) because he'll be the only real pussy (which all bullies are) on the field today.

An On his way to Shea today kind of guy,

Out-of-Towner

S

Although logic does not seem your forte, but I will at least give you for creativity. When you realized you couldn't win the argument, you chose to bring in friggin Aaron Sele.

I did NOT say Duquette getting rid of Clemens was a no brainer. I said, once he got Pedro, his move became somewhat justifiable, because there was a no brainer Pedro was a better choice than Clemens four years ago, and this proves to be the case.

As for your constant claim that "Clemens won the WS, Pedro didn't", oh yeah, the Red Sox should have traded for Shane Spacer instead of Manny Ramirez.

Superman... now that I look it up, you're right, Foster did play left field for the Mets for most of '86. They released him in August and he didn't play in the postseason.

I didn't see it on TV, but apparently, Estes' first pitch to Clemens today was about a foot behind him. They actually DID make an attempt to knock him down.

Estes hit a HR off Clemens. So did Piazza. It must be a sweet day for Mets fans.

Just so that nobody misunderstands me. I have been saying Dan Duquette is a moron. He could have kept both Clemens and Pedro, using the money he spent on David Cone, Bret Saberhagen, Jeff Fassero etc.

Duquette was even more moronic giving away Chris Reitsma for Dante Bichette, and Dennis Tankersley for Ed Sprague! These names may not mean a thing for a lay person like Clark Kent, but they are really bad trades for the Sox.

Ootie, yes I like Clemens tactics. He pitches inside, which most pitchers are scared to do. Even today, he pitched like he always does. He does not headhunt, and he did not purposely hit Piazza.

Byron, whatever dude. You change your story as you go. Anyway, the Red Sox should thank Clemens. They were under tremendous fan pressure after Clemens went 21-7; 2.05 ERA; and 292 Strikeouts for a 76-86 club in 1997 after all their talk of Clemens being finished. Would Boston have gone after Pedro so hard if Clemens had an average season that year? Probably not. They needed somebody to save a little face, and congratulations ... they got it big-time in Pedro.

Obviously it's too easy with Red Sox fans, because all I have to say is "What's it gotten them?" Nothing is what. They could have all best individual players in the world, but they have not won a Championship in 85 years. They've had some great ones over the years ... Yaz, Fisk, Rice, Eck, Clemens, Pedro, Manny, Lynn ... too bad it's a team game.

Byron said: the Red Sox should have traded for Shane Spacer instead of Manny Ramirez.

Did the Red Sox trade for Manny Ramirez? I always thought he came to Boston as a Free Agent. Come on man, don't debate me if you don't even know your own team. Your next post will explain how that is not what you really meant ...

Today's game: Well, I thought Estes did what he had to do by throwing behind Clemens. He was clearly trying to hit him but just missed. I guess others feel differently. Mets fans are still disappointed. Some guy on SportsCenter just ripped the Mets for not hitting him. That guy needs to chill out ... I thought he was gonna have a heart attack. Clemens stood right in, just like I knew he would. There was no chance of scaring that guy.

Hopefully the Mets can use today's emotion-fueled win to jump-start their season, cuz I have no hate for the Mets and would love to see another Subway Series. They need something ... only one guy in their starting lineup is batting higher than their career average. Yikes. Hell, it's only June.

Hey, 25 years ago today the Mets traded Tom Seaver for, errr ... ummmm .... like 4 guys. That must have been some kind of Red Sox moment, huh?

I'm really spending too much time talking about baseball before August. Maybe I'll make a quick run to TJ and fuck some hotties. Why not ... TJ being so close and all. (Sorry Ootie, I couldn't resist)

-Superman-

Hey, no fair, I'm also out here a few thousand miles from TJ.

Seaver for 4 guys? A trivia buff like myself can't pass up an opportunity like that!

Pat Zachry
Steve Henderson
Doug Flynn

I believe there WAS a fourth guy in that deal, but I don't remember who it was. (anyone? Ootie?)

At any rate, none of the four was even close to being a household name.

That trade was very similar to last year's Curt Schilling trade.

Correction: how silly of me. The Schilling trade was two years ago.

Farsider, it was Pitcher Dan Norman. I did not really know it ... I just saw it on SportsCenter.

Hey, at least you can take pride that the Phillies victimized the Mets too ... remember Lenny Dykstra and Roger McDowell to Philadelphia for Juan Samuel? LOL.

-Superman-

S, you are getting desparate.

How could the Red Sox have acquired Shane Spencer without trading for him?

Where did I change my story? Go back to my original post on "Clemens and Red Sox". Everything is perfectly consistent.

You, on the other hand, said something silly like, Clemens has the ring but Pedro didn't. Then, you realized your mistake, and spent the last ten posts correcting yourself. What became clear in the process is, though, your lack of baseball knowledge. I've got to agree with ootie on this one.

As for the Yanks' fans false sense of superiority over Red Sox fans. Big deal. It's not like you own the team, okay?

LOL. As predicted.

-Superman-

The Final Say: A Day At Shea and The PGA!

Raaah-Jerrr.....Raaah-jerrr.....Raaah-jerrr....

The deafening derisive waves of chants cascaded from each section of every tier at Shea Stadium. They pelted down upon a lonely and sad figure standing motionless on the pitcher's mound, much like the rain and the mist that had engulfed this sold-out arena's baseball diamond the night before. His discomfort had grown noticeably in the last couple of minutes, and it was becoming too much for him to personally handle.

The visiting club's staff noticed his change in demeanor. A questionable injury suddenly became the focus, dubious because the specific nature of the ailment would not be disclosed until well after the game ended. Quite the unusual event. The injury eventually would be conveniently and suspiciously described as something that would not prevent him from making his next scheduled start.

The manager hurriedly commenced his walk to the mound to save his warrior from any further embarrassment. Or was it to prevent him from possibly snapping again, such as the time he had flung a jagged edged piece of a broken bat which according to his explanation had been thought to be a baseball. Maybe there was a danger that he would in some other way create even more athletic havoc than he had set into motion in the past in this stadium. In any event, the manager wanted to leave nothing to chance. It was much like a trainer who throws in the towel to prevent his boxer from incurring even more humiliation and potential injury despite the halfhearted balks to continue the hopeless quest.

He had been the target of a fast ball by the opposing pitcher this day. He had been a moron by fundamentally forgetting to cover home plate which allowed the first run of the game to score. He had dished up a two-run homer to the opposing pitcher, possibly the ultimate embarrassment for a hurler. He had been taken deep later in the game again by the same player whose career he had almost ended two years previously, a player who had owned him before and continues to own him, despite the vicious and purposeful pitch that had been intentionally aimed at that player's head.

Intertwined with the hostile crowd's verbal assault cloud that had enveloped him was a mixture of justice and karma, a combination that always finds its mark no matter how long it might take. Good, and the good guys, eventually always win, and that would be the case this day. And most likely, it would not be the last time.

Raaah-Jerrr.....Raaah-jerrr.....Raaah-jerrr....

The jeers grew even more vengefully vocal as this arrogant asshole, this babyish bully, this consummate coward, this pugilistic pussy crossed the third base line and tipped his sweaty cap in almost mock gesture. There had been a lust for blood from the throaty throng that had gone unrewarded because he had not felt the physical pain or tasted the dust that his victim had experienced two years ago. But soon the truth would be realized and would offer far more comfort: blood indeed had been drawn, although not red, and a wound had been delivered deeply and much more effectively than any baseball or other physical object could have carved.

And then he disappeared into the visitor's dugout, not to be seen again until he would childishly and characteristically refuse to answer any questions concerning the payback pitch that had been aimed at him earlier. Although that pitch had harmlessly missed its mark, it had still served to unsettle him for the remainder of his pitiful performance, both on and off the field. His exit from the clubhouse would be swifter than the speed of his quickest beanball, and in a sense just as worthy of negative comment.

His teammates had offered him no support during the game. They had been shutout. Perhaps it had been a subconscious message directed to him that they did not agree with his past stronghanded and controversial tactics. Some of these current teammates had grilled him with paragraphs and epitaphs of anger when he had pitched for a different team and used those same tactics on them. Maybe this was their silent retribution. One of his teammates was even responsible for a highly uncharacteristic goof: his all-star surehanded shortstop had muffed a routine grounder that had been easier to field than the infamous Buckner slow roller.

By the time the game had ended, most of his fans in the crowd who had defended his past headhunting strategy were long gone. Some of the few that remained had purposely taken off their caps so as to avoid being identified with their defeated hero, possibly to avoid the ridicule that certainly would have been directed at them by the euphoric forces of Good, the same type of ridicule that they had so easily administered the night before. What goes around, comes around. It had taken two years, and like a fine wine that had aged in the basement but had never been forgotten, it was that much sweeter and celebratory.

And so went the saga of Roger Clemens today, an American League pitcher who continues to take a chance with ending each ballplayer's career that he beans. He has no fear of retribution because unlike the noted brushback pitchers Drysdale and Gibson, a designated hitter comes to the plate to bat on Clemens' behalf. He is never required to directly answer for his injustices. And therefore his record against National League teams is worse for that very reason: 8-8 with a 5.5 ERA, bearing not even a remote similarity to his other Hall of Fame numbers.

It seems quite obvious that when he is required to bat, he pitches much less aggressively and effectively. Dusty Baker was quoted as saying "if he pitched in the National League he would be known as Roger the Dodger", a reference to the revenge that most opposing pitchers would probably pursue. His record against the Mets has always been poor: 2-5 with a 7.6 ERA, 0-3 at Shea with an ERA over 8, not to mention a broken heart courtesy of the Mets in the 1986 World Series.

He has been owned and embarrassed by Mike Piazza in recent years, and thus it is not hard to safely conclude that his beanball two years ago was intentionally thrown at eye level and head depth. Hopefully he won't do it again because Piazza took him deep once more today, the straw that broke the camel's back in the mysterious head of Roger Clemens.

In the final analysis, the Yankees this year are better than the Mets of course, and they have been better for most of the past decade. They have been a great team; their accomplishments are significant. And they will probably make the playoffs again, while the Mets may very well be watching on TV absent a turnaround or an Atlanta collapse. I take my hat off to the Yankees.

But I doubt that any Yankee fan will sincerely have a more enjoyable and sweeter day this year than my fellow Met fans and I experienced today: seeing the Yankee fans slink out of Shea with their heads between their legs, knowing the anguish that they will endure tonight, and realizing that their arrogance will always be accompanied with the realization that they will never be able to stop sharing the spotlight and the attention of this town with the Mets. That latter item will always be the most difficult for them to swallow and accept.

The ride home was almost as wonderful as the ballgame. Various Yankee fans were calling the local sports radio station to expose or share their grief. Some attempted to minimize the Mets' accomplishments today. How desperate and futile. They will likely remain in denial until it is again safe to objectively face reality, something that might take a long time to happen, if ever.

Maybe that's the bottom line: it's now how many championships your team wins, it's how much enjoyment they provide to their fans. After all, sports is entertainment. Yes, the more I think about it, the more I believe it.

After arriving home, I witnessed the final hour of the U.S. Open Golf Championship. Tiger Woods' lead had been cut to just two strokes but then he faced adversity by holing two birdies and doubling the margin separating himself from Sergio Garcia. It should be an interesting final round because Garcia has been one of the few opponents (maybe even the only one) who has not been intimidated in the past by being directly teamed with Tiger in the final group.

Now there's a man to admire: Tiger Woods. All sports fans should model themselves after him. In a sport that is the most difficult to dominate, he has established and maintained a talent gap that is simply extraordinary. He has done so while being the perfect sportsman and gentleman in the opinion of his competitors. In the face of adversity he gets stronger. And if he is challenged by a competitor, he raises his game to another level as opposed to physically endangering his opponent. Are you listening, Roger? More specifically, are all of you Clemens fans listening?

A Moving on now to a different thread kind of guy,

Out-of-Towner

One thing about baseball, if you ever played for any length of time you learn real fast not to gloat or show up the opposing team. It always ends up biting you in the ass. Fans aren't players. Completely different.

It's the only sport I can think of where the defense handles the ball.

Pitching inside is permissable and advisable, hitting people is tolerated when justified....but it CAN'T be at the head.

You aim below the belt, hit him in the back, NEVER at the head.

What Clemens did to Piazza was inexcusable. Today he got his, but Estes and Piazza didn't taunt. They know better. Clemens would have drilled one of their teammates, that would have made the situation worse.

Give Piazza credit for hangin in against him and being able to concentrate well enough to finish his at bats, let alone hit a home run....unbelieveable.

Jeez, the Yankees wait until they take over first place and then they upgrade their team at two positions ... acquiring Raul Mondesi early this week and Jeff Weaver yesterday.

The Weaver signing is particularly nice, considering he had been rumoured to the Red Sox. Some teams make the moves, some teams talk about them ... maybe Boston can still get Thome for half a season.

-Superman-

It's disturbing to see Tijuana mentioned so much lately in the news regarding Major League Baseball players and Steroids ... the fact is they must be damn easy to get in TJ.

The #1 drug people try to sell me in TJ is Crystal, followed closely by Steroids. Most of the steroid offers seem to come from the cabbies.

-Superman-

Question: Why ALL of the various log-in names?

There was a "60 Minute", "20-20", or one of those other "news shows" that recently had a spot on steroids and the Mexican border towns. It focused on various people (athletes) who travel to these towns for the steroids but then also sell them for a huge profit in the U.S. They even did one of those "camera in the hat" tricks with a pharmacy on Revo.

It's all the same log-in, I was just messing with my discus profile.

I hate to see TJ get any negative attention from the U.S., because I always fear they are going to clean it up on us. All the attention from MLB players getting 'roids in TJ can't be good. TJ's government always seems to want to please the U.S. and repair their negative image ... not realizing that image is what draws a lot of people there in the first place. I would have zero interest in visiting a squeaky clean TJ.

-Superman-

Superman, the US's efforts to turn Tijuana into a suburb of San Diego really are annoying. A sqeaky clean TJ might draw church groups and disco lovers, but it wouldn't have much to hold my attention.

Exactly. I personally enjoy the filth and the perception of danger. The first time I wandered off Rev in TJ, it instantly reminded me of 1980's New York City.

When I was 14, my school took a field trip to the NYC museums, and then gave us a few hours of free time to shop. Three friends and I decided to explore 42nd street. It was a true red light district back then, and within minutes we were offered fake id's, a variety of drugs, and some pretty scary looking whores. We were obviously in great potential danger, being three white 9th graders from the suburbs in Connecticut, but I loved it. I often get that same feeling in TJ.

God knows they fucked 42nd street up. Now it's a family fun time area. I personally cringe whenever I hear TJ even mentioned in the news.

-Superman-

Don Baylor got fired the other day, and the GM said it was because the Cubs talent on the field does not match their record. Using that criteria, how does Bobby Valentine still have a job? The guy is a complete moron as it is, but with all the talent on the Mets, how can they not have a winning record? What happened to all those offseason moves? Is Mo Vaughn the worst first baseman in baseball? Is Roberto Alomar even still alive?

-Superman-

Yikes, the Mets went 0-13 at home during August, the worst one-month home record of all time in the National League. What happened to all those supposed studs they signed in the offseason? Maybe Mike Piazza took care of them in the shower?

-Superman-

Ho-hum ... the Yankees win another AL East. Yawn.

-Superman-

Fuck, the Red Sox were officially eliminated tonight. Talk about the inevitible.

Jeez, two 20 game winners and still no playoffs ... and now Pedro Moss, errr, Martinez is trying to coach the team!

I'd love to see a best of 7 between Boston and the New York Potheads.

Go Yanks!!

-Superman-

Go Mets !

Is baseball season over yet? (yawn) And did the Yankees buy another World series championship? (double yawn)

Hmmm,

Looks like Dogster has picked up another name.

Dogster equals-- Sam and now Katokay!!

Superman, please be on alert!!!

I don't know if it's funny or just sad ...

-Superman-

I guess I can't fool you anymore. Gosh, I was just joking.

Dogster, Sam, Batster1, and now Katokay.

By the way--Great post Katokay! (though if I gave a shit, I'd prefer it if the Yankees lost..)

Sweeeeet!!!!
Not that I give a shit about Baseball these days. But my old doomed team, the Angels, has just convincingly deleted the NY Yankees.

Maybe I'll pay attention for the rest of the season, and treat y'all to my penetrating baseball analysis. Afterall, somebody has gotta fill in for whats his face while he's in shock.

THIS COULD BE THE BEGINNING OF THE *GREAT* ANGELS DYNASTY!!!! BACK IN THE SADDLE AGAIN!

Now if the A's and the Giants hang on, this'll be really fun.

And no matter what... The NBA season begins in a few weeks...

When I logged on, I knew there would be a post in this thread from Dogster! Talk about inevitable ... the life of a troll!

There is nothing I like more than the trolls who profess their dislike/disinterest of a topic, as Dogster has done with both baseball and football, who still, inexplicably, feel the need to add their opinion!

Of course, the Angels were once "his team." LOL. All aboard the bandwagon, eh?

Classic post, Dogface!

-Superman-

Congratulations to any Angels fans who lurk here ... they dominated the Yanks. They should have probably even swept them. One thing is for sure, they are fun to watch.

It looked like New York was bored compared to the enthusiasm of the Angels players ... it might be time for George to buy some youngsters who are not jaded by the 4 World Championships in the last 6 years ...

Luckily, being a Yankee fan, it's inevitable they will be back again next year.

-Superman-

I'll be quick and merciful because your declining team just lost, and it has been a difficult sports year for you.

I mentioned the Angels thing at least a couple times (June 11, baseball thread, and Sept 30, basketball thread).

I grew up in southern California, so it was natural for me to root for that team as a kid. If I wanted to jump on a bandwagon, I'd probably choose the Yankees, for statistical reasons. (Hint: you are from Philly).

I give you credit--you haven't even blamed the officiating this time, so maybe you've advanced a little developmentally.

Talk about slipping ... your Alzheimer's must be kicking in. I'm not from Philly. I was raised in Connecticut, 45 minutes from NYC. Start paying attention, troll.

Even if by some remote chance you were an Angels fan back in the 60's, now you're just a bandwagon geek. a) Team starts winning; b)guy who has not followed the team in decades becomes a fan again after they win their first ever playoff series. You're just desperate to fit in somewhere, aren't you?

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By Dogster on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 07:09 pm:

Professional baseball. Who cares? A bunch of spoiled steroid monsters playing in a corrupt league plagued by strikes, racism, poor health, and hypocrisy. America's pastime used to mean something, even though the game is a bit slow. Now it sucks.
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If you don't care, why post in the baseball thread? Oh, that's right ... the Angels were struggling badly in May, so of course you did not care then.

Now that I think about it, you showed up around here right in the middle of the Lakers current title run ... hmmm, who'd you like before then? The Bulls?? LOL.

Who do you like in football ... wait, let me guess ... the Patriots?? Okay, okay, wait about 12 weeks before deciding. I'm sure we'll see you in the football thread (another sport you say you hate) with more of your drivel.

That was easy.

-Superman-

Well I think the mets are eliminated right >?
So that would have me root for the Yankees which got whipped by the Angels.
I think this is great for baseball and will renew the interest of baseball in a state that offers more sports than any other state in the USA.

I am the biggest Braves hater there could be and they will choke again.
I would like to see Tuff guy Barry get a ring and seeing the Giants take on the Angels would be great for the game.

Not sure who I would route for if they are in the series

Go Devil Rays !!!

Whores in Baseball , I mean yours in baseball
Milkster

Best sign in Anaheim
1/2 the payroll
twice the heart