I looked at McCain and saw a Bush repeat. Sorry, can't go there. I wanted to like Obama, I really really did. And the guy's a good speaker. The problem is what comes out of his mouth - the government should do this, the government should give people that. Here's a news flash people - the government can't give anything it didn't take from the people first, not without using funny money and IOU's to pay for it.

Really doesn't matter which one gets elected - this country's fucked either way. Obama's just going to bring the ponzi scheme crashing down sooner than McCain would, with all his new entitlement programs he wants to enact.

As for discretionary spending? You could cut 100% of discretionary spending, and 20 years from now we're still screwed:

http://perotcharts.com/category/challenges-charts/page/31/



(Message edited by Phoenixguy on August 04, 2008)

Amen, Explorer.

Phoenixguy, exactly.

Can anyone say without a reason of doubt that any one party has done better than the other in running the government? that includes deficit, taxes, controlling spending, social issues, keeping it all in balance, etc.

I am no fan of Bush, but to try and hang everything on him is hilarious. W. and his boys fucked up big time, but he didn't do it by himself. Both sides had a hand in it. The private sector was right there in the mix as well. And when it all comes down to it the average citizen needs to take their fair share of the blame. I am usually pretty positive, but we have a long term big fucking mess here.

Phoenixguy:

You have a legitimate concern but I just don't see it playing out that way. Obama is already beginning to surround himself with the same economic advisors who convinced Bill Clinton to concentrate more on fiscal responsibility than the introduction of new programs. This is one of those areas where I think intelligence counts for something and Obama isn't dumb. He knows well that one of the primary reasons many felt good about Clinton as President (notwithstanding his recklessness with Monica Lewinsky) was because of his responsible fiscal policies and the benefits that accrued as a result.

Although he may be accused of being a flip flopper for showing some flexibility, I believe Obama will adapt well to whatever the economic reality is when he takes office, just as Clinton did.

No, W didn't do it himself. He had the help of Cheney and a Republican Congress.

oh, come on Laguy, you wont admit the dems had any hand in this mess? you cant be serious

Republicans controlled all three branches of the Federal government for 6 years.

Any Democrat who opposed the war was labeled as unpatriotic.

Republicans campaigned in 2002 and 2004 on the platform of, Vote Democrat.....and die. That no longer worked in 2006.

Democrats who tried to cut funding for the war were labeled as unpatriotic and not supporting the troops. How can they NOT support the troops?

Democrats who didn't authorize illegal wire tapping were labeled as making the country less safe.

I am just really surprised to see the argument that there is no difference between Obama and McCain. This is the same argument Nader put forth in 2000. While I can't predict what would have happened if Bush had not been given victory by the Supreme Court, I would dare to say that this country would be a hell of lot better off right now if they hadn't and Gore was our president. The country would also have 1.3 trillion less in debt....Can anyone really say that things wouldn't have been A LOT different if Gore were President? And it's not like things could be much worse than they are now.

I will say this though. The Democrats are a bunch of pussies for not impeaching Bush. Because the evidence is clearly there. But they feel they can expand their majority in the House and Senate and win the White House. The more Republicans attacked and then impeached Clinton, the more popular he became and the last thing Democrats want to do is make Bush a sympathetic character. However, that doesn't make it right.

Never in the history of this country has a majority party (the Republicans) cut the other party (the Democrats) out of any decision making power in the Senate and House of Representatives as was the case for most of the Bush Presidency. You are correct that I believe the Dems have had virtually no hand in the mess that has transpired during the Bush presidency.

If you believe otherwise, you are not paying attention.

(Message edited by LAguy on August 04, 2008)

The ONE TIME Democrats showed any spine at all (after Bush nominated several ultra conservative activist judges to the Federal bench) and the Democrats threatened to filibuster......The Republicans in the Senate threatened the so called "nuclear option."

That is, they said they would simply change Senate rules to outlaw filibusters which only required a majority vote. A majority they had.

(Message edited by xenono on August 04, 2008)

So Obama wants to put a windfall tax on the oil companies because they made a 80 billion dollar profit last year. I guess the banks are next because they made over a 400 billion dollar profit last year. What about the cell phone companies who made billions of dollars of profit for over charging us. Oh yeah.....google and yahoo need to be subject to a windfall tax because they made billions of dollars in profit. Walmart will be next. What a Pandora's box he is opening by wanting to punish the oil companies and their stock holders, many who are retirement portfolios for teacher pensions, etc.
Obama is just saying anything to get elected!

Is this the best you can do Beachman? Not very persuasive.

This is a very interesting discussion with many sub threads.

Cat. Here's a good example of wasted money. Bush's faith based initiatives. They have become a disaster in two ways. The reality is that these initiatives are a just a way for Bush to funnel money to his religious right buddies. It has a negative effect to inject one religion over another into the government. Worse yet, their programs have provided NO results.

A good example is Bush's wonderful sexual abstinence program. Hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent, and it has had NO impact whatsoever on AIDs prevention, teenage pregnancy, or whatever measure you want to use. It is a stupid program that has no benefit to society and it should be eliminated before it gets too ingrained into our society.

I really suggest reading everyone read Scott McClelland's book What Happened. One of the underlying premises of the book is what he calls the permanent campaign. This style of governance began with Clinton but Bush et al took it to whole new levels. The concept is that the executive office presents the issues to the American public rather than Congress. When public opinion tips, then they would ram the issue through Congress. Perhaps the strongest example is the case for the Iraqi war.

One last thing. Everyone, please ignore Beachman. His arguments are poor and only serve to lower the level of conversation. Let's just face the fact that he is going to vote for McCain and be done with it.

BT,

I agree completely with those two examples. Now, I'm thinking bigger - crop subsidies. The concept has some merit - helping farmers out when foreign markets dump grain below cost, those types of things. However, when giant agri-businesses making huge profits with sky high commodities are paid billions of dollars not to grow product, that just screws with supply and demand. That's a double whammy, and it eats tens of billions of dollars. We're basically paying agri-business to fuck us over.

On the DoD side, the number one waste of money is the Missle Defense Shield. It doesn't work. It won't work. If the North Koreans or Iranians were stupid enough to want to hit us with a nuke - as in one or two, which is about all they could muster - they probably won't use an ICBM, they would just bring it in on a ship. Even if they did build an ICBM program, most missileers will tell you that waiting for the payload to reach space and trying to hit it with another payload is science fiction at this point. Yet still, we're spending 10-20 billion a year on it just to make the folks in Kansas feel safer at night that the evil North Koreans won't launch and ICBM attack. As if our 7000 warhead deterrent wouldn't do the same thing, and it's already working, in place and paid for otherwise.

Regarding Beachman, well, he's a Florida real estate agent, which my year in gulag in South Florida taught me that Florida real estate agents rank about where cockroaches are on the evolutionary scale. General scumbags, not very smart, cheesy as can be.

We have some agreement. Agro subsidies should be the first to go. In lean years there is a public interest in protecting the small farmers. Giant agro business should stand on it's own in good years and bad. With commodity prices where they are these days there is no reason why anyone anywhere should be getting any farm subsidies. Hey, wait a minute. Didn't the democratic congress just pass a $288 Billion farm bill. I thought the democrats were going to change that kind of waste. I'll bet you neither party will dare touch farm subsidies. Ever. Damn shame.

Missile defense. Cat's absolutely right, huge waste of money. $53 billion. I don't believe a foreign government would ever launch nuclear missiles against us because obviously we would nuke them back. Even Ahmadinejad, and Kim Jong-i understand that logic. If we ever get nuked it will be delivered by an unmarked van. Democrat's might cancel that which would be good.

Hey, easy agreement on $341 Billion in fat that could be trimmed. That's almost $3000 in savings per US taxpayer. Just think if anyone went through the entire US budget and cut out all the fat.

Here is an example of Obama's 2face politicking.
I especially like the point about how he fails to mention that he has taken in $400,000 in donations from oil executives.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080805/ap_on_el_pr/obama;_ylt=AnwguABgSMHDPXDccDzkdA9h24cA



And since you guys are speaking about government wasteful spending.....you got to give McCain credit for not begging for earmarks for Arizona....unlike the whining Senator from Illinois.

I am not a racist, but if McCain had associations with extremist on the other side of the press the media would be roasting him.

Has Obama distance himself from Lutrcuios the rapper who says if Obama wins they are going to paint the White House Black.

Can you imagine if McCain had meet with a Redneck country singer a couple a months ago and the singer had raised money for him. and McCain praised him a musical talent and a great business man. Then the singer can out with a racist song about McCains political opponents.

Tell me how the preess would have covered that!

Repubs policy- no tax and spend big!!!! Dems policy- tax and spend big!!! Right now the Dems policy sounds better but it still sucks. Realistically Americans need to bite the bullet and have a tax and no spend policy for about 5 to 10 years. Cut entitlement programs and raise taxes. After the deficit is balanced go to a no tax and no spend policy. Get government out of our lives financially and socially. The real problem is that the government has become way to big. Corruption and waste has taken over. Vote for Obama and maybe we will come together as a nation and be respected by the world again but it doesnt change policy. Vote for McCain and ride the same train we have been riding. I would rather draw a card from the deck than hold the same cards. The real problem is that Americans have become a nation of bloggers instead of protesters. Even when gas hit 4 bucks people took it up the ass with a smile and a "What can I do about it" attitude. Casting a vote is just not enough for policy change anymore.

In general, I believe one of America's strengths is that the government has had a hands off approach and let business and capitalism take care of itself. Agriculture subsidies make sense up to a point, since the country needs an internal food supply chain in the event of war etc. But the reality is that the subsidies of today accomplish little to none of that. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Being a business guy, efficiency is a never ending challenge. You can never be efficient enough and there is always more efficiency to be whittled out. I think a great example is the internet. There is not one business still alive today that does not at least use the internet to drive efficiency. Yes, our government uses the internet, but they should be the leaders in driving the use of internet to improve efficiency. It is after all the largest bureaucracy in the world.

Beachman just posted again. Let's ignore him and keep on talking intelligently.

Florida real estate agents seem to have a lot of free time on their hands these days

Bwana: I would laugh but probably don't have standing to given the number of posts I have contributed to this thread. Well, alright, LOL.

I would like to apologize to all my liberal friends for stirring up controversy in this thread. I really do like you guys. You see, I forgot to take my Thorazine again yesterday even after the nice doctor had very carefully explained to me how important it was for me to always remember to take it. But I'm all better now.

Apology accepted, but only if you will share your stash of Thorazine with the rest of us, so we can all recover from this thread-induced psychosis.

Can you imagine what would have happened if Obama had made the gaffs McCain has made so far this political season?

Let see:

-Confusing Shia and Sunni multiple times.
-Saying Iran was training Al-Qaeda multiple times.
-Saying the surge started a full 6-9 months before it was even announced as policy and then trying to re-define the word surge to mean an overall approach to terror fighting.
-In reaction to hearing that Iran was a big importer of American cigarettes, saying "Maybe that's a way of killing them."
-Singing "Bomb Bomb Iran" and making light of war.
-McCain supporting insurance companies that pay for Viagra, but refusing to support legislation requiring insurance companies to pay for female birth control.

If Obama had said or done any of these things he would have roasted as inexperienced, amateurish, and not ready for the job. McCain gets a pass.

And I will see your Ludacris and raise you a Pastor John Hagee. Pastor John Hagee, whose endorsement McCain ACTUALLY SOUGHT OUT and spent a year courting said, that Katrina happened to New Orleans because they planned to hold a gay pride parade.

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/23/hagee-katrina-mccain/

(With audio!)

You can read more of his controversial quotes about Nazism, Catholicism, Islam, homosexuality, Jews, and Hurricane Katrina at this link: http://tndp.org/thedonkeysmouth/?p=214

McCain largely got a pass for a long while on Hagee before finally breaking ties with him, but not really.

I am also curious about the context of the $400,000 by oil executives. Campaign contributions are limited to $2300 each for the primaries and the general election. Unless they are talking about throughout his career.

Obama has also revolutionized the way money is raised. He is not owned by special interest the way McCain is. He has raised almost all his money on the internet and can tap over 1,000,000 donors each month for $25 or $50, or $100 a pop. And they never reach the $2300 limit.

Xenono: If Obama had done all the things McCain has done (as you describe above ) he would have been called senile, and justifiably so!

Paris responds to McCain ad.

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/64ad536a6d


(Message edited by xenono on August 05, 2008)

Paris, funny stuff. Good come back. Now that I have my trip booked for Rio on the 22nd of this month, it is really hard for me to think about politics. All I can think about is a stop by Luomos for a little steam room, massage, light dinner and of course plenty of cabine action. Discuss on guys, AZ

Fuck, there goes my carbon footprint.

Hate to disappoint you, Azguy, but the steam room in L is not working correctly. For the past few weeks it's been running at 60 C (that's 140 F). I walked in the room and ran right out; nearly scaled my dick. I complained to the management and they just shrugged. A local told me he's been complaining for a couple of weeks and they do nothing.

Bwana

Your dick has scales ?? If so it probably needs a good scaling.

Perhaps you meant scalded ?? hehe

That's kind of like saying you got crabs from a tanning bed or a public bathroom. "Bwana, what bad with peu, is red. You sickee?" "No, it got that way because the sauna was too hot."

Likely fucking story

Scalded....yes! I quickly stuck my dick in Ingrid's mouth and that solved the problem.

McCain is going to lose, and Beachman can't tell us what Bush policies that McCain will change.

Beachman doesn't care, 'cause he likes Bush!

I like bush too, but I like mine trimmed and waxed. Come on Rio!! AZ

I earlier mentioned how I thought Cheney's history of four heart attacks might suggest he is not operating on all cylinders upstairs. Here is a report of a recent study on heart disease and mental functioning:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080807/hl_nm/heart_disease_dc_1

My Dad had heart problems (bypass, pacemaker) and I know for about a year before he passed away he just did not think clearly. Although I hate to compare my Dad with Cheney. He is probably rolling over in his grave right now.

McCain's Youtube problem just became a nightmare.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEtZlR3zp4c

He's either senile or incompetent. Or worse, both.

John Edwards, Jessie Jackson....who's next Obama the great moral party the Democrats.

Edwards is scum.....his wife fighting cancer and he puts on this great front how he is so in love with her.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080808/ap_on_el_pr/edwards_affair

Well dumbass, as everyone on this board can somewhat relate, you can be in a relationship and in love and still get some strange on the side. At least, those of us who actually monger, that is.

I am not down playing what Edwards did and his timing was horrible as it relates to his wife, but who are we to judge? Come on, really, we fuck whores for a hobby.

It would be interesting to know from the local Brasil guys how they handle something like this down there, probably just another day at the office.

I didnt agree with his politics, but I hate to see anyone go through this kind of thing. Especially his wife and family. Anyone rejoicing in this is sad (and you know they will).

I dont want to get too deep here, but if a thing like this is going to happen, it has a higher chance of happening when it did. Did that make sense? anyway, just my two cents, AZ

PS, I guess what I am trying to say is the guy likes pussy just like the rest of us. Is that really all that bad? Just really, really bad timing. AZ

You miss the point. The guy was running for President of the United States. If he lies to his wife and children while his wife is fighting for her life....what lies was he telling us.

This guy spent campaign donations on her flying her around the country under the disguise that she was contributing to the campaign. Maybe her is client # 8.....Spitzer was #9.


It is one then to monger if you are single ....but to cheat on your wife when she is fighting cancer and tell the whole country she is the only one !

Edwards on the campaign trail always preached about fatherhood and responsibility and look at who he is. He a fucking crooked lawyer who has double talk for years now... He couldn't even carry his own state for Kerry in 2004....the people of NC know who he is....just like the people of Tennessee didn't vote for double talk Gore. Just think if he could have won his own home state he would have been President!

Beachman,

How many houses have you sold recently?

Beachman, be honest, would you be saying the same thing if he were a republican? That is what bugs me I guess, maybe I do it too, I hope not, I just dont like it when people jump on someone because of their political views and then let another guy off the hook for the same thing because he agrees with his views.

The funny part is, when this shit comes up on a politician people are surprised. It does not matter which party you are for, they all do it. We do it. We are human. Am I being too easy on the guy? I dont know. AZ

PS "and he would have been president?" Maybe other guys on here know better then I do, but havent most of the good presidents had affairs or blemishes on their record? Look at Kennedy.

BTW, this is off the subject, but I think that is why Obama is doing so well right now. I think some people see him as a version of Kennedy. They want that back. who fucking knows I am just guessing here.

PSS and you are also taking a shot at Spitzer? you do know he just got caught doing what we do all over the world, right?

Not to get in an argument with you here, but it does not seem consistent. wow, does that qualify as a rant? ok, I am done now.

Azguy: In your question to Beachman asking whether he would be saying the same thing if he, i.e., Edwards, were a Republican, were you by any chance referring to Newt Gingrich's similar behavior, John McCain's, or some other Republican's.

Does this mean I shouldn't run for president? Do you really think the public would hold a few minor indiscretions against me?

The reason I am sancho should be disqualified from elective office is not his indiscretions, but rather his political views. On the other hand maybe I am sancho should be disqualified from being allowed any indiscretions owing to his political views.

(Message edited by LAguy on August 08, 2008)

But I already told you I am voting for Obama now. In fact I even put more air in my tires last weekend.

Just think of the negative attack ads my opponent could run against me. They would be the best negative attack ads of all times.

Laguy, there would be a really long list on both sides. My point is we are all human. The guy fucked up and in a really bad way. If you take out the fact that his wife was battling cancer at the time I dont think it is that big deal.

I think what really sucks is we are all going to have to hear the talking heads and the other side beat the shit out of this for the next few weeks. It always get politicized.



Ok, I am done defending the guy before people think I am a democrat.

My first reaction to Edward's confirmation of his affair and the amount of press attention it received was "Republicans: be careful what you wish for." The next logical step is for the media to examine McCain's similar behavior (actually, worse if you buy, as do many of McCain's supporters in the religious right, the premise that adultery is morally wrong).

A couple of quotes from something posted on the Huffington Post today:

"John McCain had a well-documented affair on his first wife, with his current wife. He has admitted in the books he has written about his life that he ran around with several different women while still married to his first wife. And don't forget that he left her for a younger, richer woman - multi-millionaire Cindy Hensley who is now Cindy McCain - after she had been severely hurt in a car accident."

"So, I want every Beachman who condemns John Edwards today to tell me what the difference between him and McCain is and why John McCain shouldn't also be run out of politics for his adulterous affairs and what he did to his first wife." [one word changed from original].

For the complete posting: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/why-doesnt-john-mccains-a_b_117811.html.

It will be interesting to see if coverage of Edward's affair will now free the mainstream media to take a closer look at McCain's personal life.

As I have said before I am no big McCain fan. He and Kerry are in the same league marrying women worth 100's of millions and don't have a clue what it is to work.

Edwards is in a class by himself. A sleazy trial lawyer who made millions lying his ass off to juries. He had no shame campaigning that he was fighting poverty while building a 30,000+ square foot house. That same way Gore claims he is fighting Global Warming but uses much more energy with his 3 houses and private jet setting all over!

Edwards cause this pain to his wife and children. The sympathy is for his family.....not an ounce for him.


He used $114,000 to pay this nobody whore to make 3-4 you tube commercials and how much more did he spend of campaign money jetting her around with him.
He is paying her hush money.....it seems she lives in a multi-million dollar house with their love child with no visible means of support. Sound familar.....just like Bill got Monica a high paying job to keep her mouth shut.

The worst part of this is that his wife has terminal cancer and he is probably cutting her life shorter with the stress. He says he came clean with his wife in 2006 but much more is coming and going to come out.

Catocony......you still hold all Real Estate agents responsible for your amateur Real Estate investing ventures. You thought you could come down to Florida and hire any agent and jump the band wagon and make a quick big profit in Florida Real Estate. You didn't do your due diligence and you got burned....take some personal responsibility and stop blaming Real Estate agents for your investment problems.

You like to brag....you pay over 50K in Federal taxes every year, more than most people make. Well let us see that means you make about $150,00 a year in income. You make it sound like you are this wise guru and man of the World meeting John MccCain in a small group enviroment a time or two.

A $150,000 a year income doesn't get you in a small group environment to meet John McCain.


By the way...I haven't sold many houses lately. I made a pretty substantial amount of money legally and ethically in the Real estate boom and had the sense to get out before the bottom dropped out. I have invested in two different business ventures working my ass off the last year and a half. We are in negotiations and have a buyer for one of the companies and have seem to come to terms. Once this deal is finalized, I will never have to work a day again in my life if I chose not too. So you can keep up all your Real Estate wisecracks, and whine and cry all you want to, and continue the name calling. But just remember.....while you are working every day ....I will be retired at age 50!

Who went to Florida to do real estate? You really are about as stupid - and useless as far as this board is concerned - as can be. You know zip about me and the other guys you're arguing with but suffice to say, you're nowhere near the ballpark with most of us.

As far as McCain, lets see. He marries a model, then goes off to war to keep up the family business. He nearly gets killed in the fire on the Forrestal - nice video of him practically crawling down the refueling probe on his A-4 to avoid the fire on the deck and his plane - then on a later mission is shot down and goes to a POW camp for years. This is all brave, inspiring, etc.

But the rub is, at the same time, his model wife is in a bad car wreck. She flies through the windshield, and is injured so badly that she comes out of the wreck a few inches shorter, busted up and pretty much a cripple.

When McCain returns from war, he takes a look at the destroyed mess that used to be his beautiful wife - and starts fucking around on her immediately. He finds a nice, beautiful sugarmomma - Cindy - and in 1980 decides he wants to marry her and applies for a marriage license. One slight problem - he's actually still married to the first wife as the divorce was not final. Oops, that would seem to indicate that he was porking little hottie blond rich girl Cindy while married. Which would make it....adultery? And the first wife was crippled?

But that should be cool in Republican's books, since, well, it just should.