<rant>Do you know what I hate? So called "Conservatives" who will eviscerate the constitution AND spend like drunken sailors, then piss and moan about "Liberals" who take away their GOD GIVEN rights and spend all of their money with their "socialist policies". These "Conservatives" spew the most puerile rhetoric, riddled with the most obvious logical fallacies, that is nothing more that self-serving, masturbatory, dissembling.

I find that lot far more disturbing and damaging than the admittedly unwise spending that is occurring now.

Real "Conservatives" would look for practical market oriented mechanisms to regulate society, not legislate an immoral "Morality" that increases crime and violence, find a way to prevent "Tragedy of the Commons" failures of markets... AND... leave people alone when their actions do not harm anyone else.
</rant>

I think that Cat's question is a very important one for someone to try and answer.

Elimgarak; You wrote "I think Obama may very well be pissing off too many of the "wrong" kinds of people very quickly."

So who are the "right" people to go after?? Those hourly income people that fall in the 15% to 25% Federal Tax bracket that the Bush administration targeted during their war on the middle class?

I would like to see you or anyone else answer Catocony's question.

RG.

Defensiveness denotes an ounce of truth, but I am way drunk now and have defeated the court ordered breathalyzer on my computer,,, or was that my car…… anyway……. so I better not post to much political crap at this moment. Seriously though, the every other day TRILLION is scaring the shit out of me. Big time.

IAS don't worry, that 30K per/person debt on the Fed's credit card (issued by the Bank of China) with the 3% interest rate won't hurt so bad when we are paying them back with in an inflation rate of 8-10%. Just keep your skills and marketability current so you can keep you salary growing in accordance.

Here is the answer to Cat's question-

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/03/another-obama-c.html


And don't forget Obama's sweetheart Real Estate deal with the convicted criminal Resko for his house in Chicago.



I guess Cat defends the right of tax cheats to become cabinet members.....he even defends the rights of a tax cheat to become the head of the IRS!


Looks like Geithner doesn't know anyone who isn't a tax cheat to work at the Treasury Dept. They still have so many vacancies in that Dept.

Hmm, let's see, someone fucking up a tax return over a few thousand dollars - which happens millions of times a year - versus stashing millions in off-shore bank accounts to avoid paying any tax on it. Yeah, clearly the same thing.

Wow, $7,000 in back taxes and $878 in interest, what a crime!!! Show me of any small-giant business owner - and politicians are all basically businesses with themselves as the product - who hasn't had a back tax issue at one time or another and I'll show you a sasquatch riding a unicorn.

That's not an answer to Cat's question, just more pathetic AM radio fixated backward looking gotcha talk. A serious social and fiscal issue such as tax policy and it's unfairness, and you drag out some fringey campaign issue that is not even relevant? Can you give us your opinion about these tax havens without referring to Bill Ayers or some cane-using public housing resident in Boston?

More team Obama coruption....go ahead make excuses for them too!


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090404/pl_nm/us_summers_hedgefund

Hmm, corruption from getting legally paid by a legal company legally able to pay people for work?

Interesting, and Mitch, I don't think we'll be getting an actual answer.

Beach, you have 3 years, 9 months about 3 weeks until the next inauguration, which will be Obama's second. So, you really do need to pace yourself.

Did we even discuss guys like Fred Thompson saying they hope Obama's policies fail?

I would be happy to answer CAT's question, but my question is what the fuck is CAT's question? I am not keen to search backwards here for it ( too many more interesting things occupying my time right now! )

These are very old political arguments guys. The bottom line is that they just don't mean anything anymore. The people behind the machine that is really in control here, pits the conservative vs. liberal thing on every street corner to keep citizens arguing amongst themselves, as we are here, whilst they run off with the bank proceeds. They have very skillfully had us all looking the wrong way for decades.

A (very!) BRIEF HISTORY LESSON:

1. The Federal Reserve is about as Federal as FEDERAL EXPRESS! It is not a branch of government controlled by checks and balances in any way, shape or form. It is composed of
non-disclosed, probably foreign, PEOPLE ("shareholders") just like you and I, who run their business for profit, just like you and I would.

2. The same families ( Warburg, Rockefeller, the funding Nazi Germany Prescott BUSH ancestry!!!, JP Morgan) orchestrated several financial collapses at the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century, and many more "recessions" we all experienced in our lives through the 70's. 80's and 90's.

3. The USA is bamboozled into allowing a private cabal of bankers to control the flow of a soon to be worthless fiat currency that will replace legal constitutional money, Gold and Silver, in 1913. Interestingly enough, the Income Tax is passed illegally the same year. The average Joe is told not to worry, since this new tax is on "INCOMES," which was defined as gains on labor (dividends, interests, rental income, etc.), as distinguished from labor itself, which is actually working for money. People are told their labor is not taxable under the new system, and that only wealthy people who make investments on their money will be taxed. HA HA HA HA HA!

4. Gold and Silver were officially removed permanently in 1962, replaced by worthless paper and cheap metals. To this day, there is no legal money in existence in the USA. Worthless paper script, a fiat currency, is not used world wide and its value is set at the discretion and service of the private bankers who control its circulation. Print as much as you want, or don't print any at all! It doesn't funking matter, since it is inherently worthless. The founding fathers of our great nation knew this, which is why they insisted on precious metals being the standard for any paper currency. Europe has been controlled with fiat currency for centuries, and now we are as fucked as they have always been. Hardly anyone understands this principle anymore, but it is the key to knowing everything.

5. The Income Tax has become something that everyone pays now, illegally according to the constitution, and it represents the interest on the debt the federal gov't owes to the Federal Reserve private banks. Every paper script $$ is loaned to the USA at interest. Every time money is printed, it increases the national debt just from the interest owed alone, and renders the value of the currency, since it is backed by nothing, even more worthless. This is why these bankers own your ass 5 times over. This is also why the economy eventually tanked to the level it has ( after a long while of people making a bubble fortune on money that does not exist ), and why it will fall further into the toilet. THIS ECONOMY WAS NEVER MEANT TO LAST!!!!!

In my humble opinion, they allowed the half-white man Obama into this generally all white boys-club since they figured they could manipulate the masses with his talk of unity around the world. Hillary probably would have done the same thing if she won, but we all know what happened there.

I actually like Obama. I think he is a decent human being with good ideals; but at the same time, the guy is pie in the sky idealistic and doesn't have a clue on what he is up against here.

Some one here asked me, "who are the wrong people" I was speaking about before. Well, JFK knew of the Federal Reserve nonsense and was planning on bringing us fully back to the gold standard with Silver Certificates that we used to have (printed money used to say this - redeemable in one dollar of silver - a true "note." ). Those people waked him. Reagen knew the same and was planning on doing the same in 1980; he too was shot, and after he recovered, he never mentioned it again.

They like Obama now since he is rounding up everyone for a socialistic one world government, with a one world currency that will probably wind up being electronic, when they deem now that even paper CASH is evil. But if Obama pokes his nose in places it does not belong for too long, like Swiss bank accounts.................well, you do the math. The world is moving toward one world socialistic order with or without him, and they can really give a fuck who the puppet is as long as they are they control the strings.

There is one Candidate who knows all this, preaches it, and would be our best bet for true freedom one again in America. His name is Representative Ron Paul. Everyone else, Obama included, is just a stooge.

My advice:

Keep arguing if you want. It just doesn't fucking matter.

Eurpoe has one currency (save the pound - hmmm I wonder why?)

North America will soon have one currency within the next decade.

Asia will follow with one currency as well. The three currencies will then blend into one if they get their way.

Can we fight this? Probably, but many people have to wake up first, and that is a grand task.

In the meantime...........

Get yourself into a real good TAX HAVEN country where the banks hold money for banking families and their associates. Buy property there and put your money there.

Buy as much gold and silver coin as you can get your hands on. It is going through the roof right now, and will continue to become more rare and valuable, since of course, the bankers know that their scheme is set up to own all the gold and silver for themselves, and to skyrocket its value when compared to the worthless script the print out.

Be smart.

Elim

Somebody send in the black helicopters to medivac this guy to ParanoidLand.

OMG! We have one of THOSE on the board! Is he keeping his krugerrands in his fallout shelter?

Isn't there a website or two (thousand) where wingnuts of the "the socialists and one-worlders are out to get me so I'd better buy gold and hide in a bomb shelter" can post their drivel? Somewhere other than a site that is supposed to be about sex?

If there is indeed a conspiracy, I think there will be plenty of time for us to react as the facts unfold. No need for the paranoia.

However, if you throw out the paranoia, there are a few pieces of information that is worthwhile form his analysis.

1. Get your money out of the US. I love love love getting 13%/year on my money on a certificate of deposit. It is paid every month and it is an amazing thing to see your money working for you. On top of that, if you don't spend the money, your interest compounds. I disagree that one should be looking for tax havens. One should look for countries that have high interest rates.

2. Ron Paul. Ron Paul for me has been the only intelligent rational contrarian voice on the Republican side. A lot of the Republican bashing now seems disingenuous because in many ways Obama is continuing many of Bush's strategies. The bank and automotive bailouts both began under Bush. Bush also ran up the deficit to ungodly levels. They seem to be saying that Republican deficits are OK and Democrat deficits will bankrupt our grandchildren.

3. The Fed. I actually believe that the root of the problem is the Fed and it does not have much government oversight. I am not a conspiracy theorist but there appear to be extremely unhealthy and damaging relationships with the Fed and Wall Street and Wall Street political lobbyists. If Ben Bernanke is doing a bad job, who is responsible for firing him? Bottom line is that the Fed created almost knowingly the housing and tech bubbles and Wall Street benefited more than any other constituency. Now that the bubbles have burst, Wall Street is suffering and Congress must bail out Wall Street.

4. Summers. It does bother me that Summers made >#2.0M as a public speaker to Wall Street firms. That's a lot of dough. I don't think it is dishonest nor corrupt. But it bothers me that Obama trusts him because his ties to Wall Street seem to be bordering on unhealthy. Is he really objective?

I am a little late on this topic, but a couple of things,

Its all a fucking game to the politicians, left or right. They just get their money by different methods. It is the regular folks that get fucked. The majority in the middle.

We are in a big fucking mess and not one party did it or one group of people or circumstances did it. Although not to the degree that we are in now, it is a natural occurrence that has to happen. Bush didnt help, but then again, I didnt see anyone on the other side screaming about it other than war spending.

As far as the "tax cheats", when you are making big dough and have multiple entities it is very easy to make one little mistake which comes out sounding like a lot of money. The question is, when did you know about it and when did you pay? I dont know this for sure, but my guess is the folks in question procrastinated. Not like paying taxes are on the top of anyones list. But I dont know the specifics, I could be wrong.

I also believe most people give because they want to help, not for the tax deduction. I am fine with not deducting my donations to charity from my taxes. You guys may think this is corny, but I think that just the fact that you tell someone you gave x amount of dollars to whatever charity, takes away what you just did. You did it for you not the charity. Not the reason to give. The best (in my opinion) is to give to individuals that clearly need it without them knowing you gave it to them and never tell anyone you did it. That is giving. Sometimes I slip up, but I try to keep it to myself.

That said, I want to pick my charities, I dont want the government to do it for me, which it looks like that is where we are headed.

Attack away.

Good points Blues, AZ and Elim

az...in respect to charity...different strokes for different folks. As long as a needy person/organization benefits...it's all good.

I kind of thought of p4p as a charity where both parties benefit. :-)

"I love love love getting 13%/year on my money on a certificate of deposit"

Bluestraveller,
Wow. What country do you have your CD's in where you are getting 13%?!

Is your principal safe there?

H1

Paranoia? Thats pretty funny!

Well, what you call paranoia I call common sense thinking which, through proper deductive reasoning, leads to obvious conclusions. But who gives a shit? When all is said and done, we'll see who's still standing.

Bluestraveller: a good distillation of the facts, thank you. Be careful with those high interest CD's from foreign no name banks. Back in 1990, I invested in one from The Bank of Grenada, on Grenada. All my friends were doing it so I figured wtf. Put 10G in a CD that was paying me $500 a month. Not too bad, since this lasted 18 months, netting me 9G as they sent the checks to another offshore entity. I was just about to give them another 50G, and they tanked a few days before I was able to send the funds. Now I only lost 1G, no big deal, but I know people who put in their life savings, hundreds of thousands of $$, who got totally fucked. When they went under, the CEO's disappeared, the banks branches just closed over night. No one say another dime. It just ended abruptly without warning or repay. For a few years there was a Yahoo group gathered by the people who got fucked, organizing in the Gov't of Grenada to sue, but it was all for naught. Nothing ever came of it, and no one recovered anything. The bank ran off with billions, and this whole thing was most likely one HUGE ponzi scheme with a bank disguise.

I have been investing offshore for over 30 years now. My advice. When something sound too good to be true, trust me it is. It is best to get out of these things as quickly as you get into them; make a few bucks and then withdraw your funds, even if you have to pay a penalty. Had I done that at the $5G payout mark with the $500 monthly checks, I would have had a $2G penalty, and in 10 months would have made 3G total after they returned my 8G. Just be careful. Hopefully you have not invested too much.

The fact of the matter for anyone awake, is that Obama is essentially carrying out the Bush agenda ( or whomever Bush answered to agenda ) under a different sparkle. It will mean higher taxes for EVERYONE in the long run, less chances to be an entrepreneur, less chances to avoid (legally) tax, and a one world, happy, Green and Vegan socialistic future where the individual is molded into the model of usefulness for the state, where being a good little citizen matters more than being a creative genius, where striving to make more than your neighbor is frowned upon........Jese, how fucking boring is that?!

What do all these guys who warn us about Obama/Bush say? "Don't trade your freedom for security?"

Ron Paul is the only candidate left who knows truly what it is to be an American; who truly understands the constitution; and who truly understands what tyranny.

Anyway, always a pleasure to attempt to educate you monkeys! CAT, and you other morons who follow his thinking, do not have the grey matter to understand anything I wrote in the first place.

Try reading the Constitution sometime dummies.

Azguy: I agree with your points as well.

Eliim

"Try reading the Constitution sometimes dummies."

Gosh, I have. In fact, I took Con Law from Antonin Scalia. You've probably heard of him. He's considered a pretty conservative jurist and legal scholar. I know for a fact he would reject completely and utterly your statement about the legality of income tax. But you probably know much more about the Constitution, not to mention tax law, than Scalia.

Who taught your Constitutional Law class?

BTW, I believe BT is speaking of Brazil, not some banana republic tax haven, when he writes of his high interest accounts.

I think the fact that there's an amendment to the Constitution allowing an income tax pretty much means it's Constitutional. Maybe our paranoid friend didn't get the memo on that change?

BT and the rest of you guys in the know regarding banks in Brasil, do you feel comfortable with your money there? and do you just claim the interest just like any other investment?

As well Gentlemen, begin your personal research to realize that
FDIC is, another fucking joke.

If (most likely when) Americans get totally fucked in the ass by the Federal Reserve and many US banks tank, do you really believe that FDIC will save you? Really?

Raising the supposed "insurance" level to $250,000 is as well a fucking joke. Why?

Consider this;










Since there is no legal money in existence according to the Constitution, money as you know it in your wallet is virtually worthless. It's only worth is what is prescribed to it by it's private printers, the Fed.

So in a nutshell, the only thing that has ever backed this fiat currency is the POTENTIAL of future earnings and supposed economic growth both domestically and world wide.

The banking system is the largest ponzi scheme around, due to a little gem called "Fractional Reserve." You give the bank 1G, and believe they are holding it in a safe little place. Bull shit. They are allowed to "invest" more than 60% of that 1G out (it used to be 90%!) without even telling you. However, to not have your 1G there if you want to withdraw it in the next day or two is illegal. So if you go to the bank and ask for it, even though they sent over 60% of it out someplace almost instantaneously, you get back the full 1G.

What does this fucking mean? It essentially means they take it from someone else's "account." The numbers you see on any balance sheet for your "bank account" are as well, a bull shit fiction story. Now multiply this phenomena by a few million people trying to withdraw their "money" at the same time. What will happen? Of course! IT IS NOT FUCKING THERE SO THEY CANNOT POSSIBLY PAY IT OUT!!!!!!!!

So the Fed knows this and prints up more fiat currency. What does this do it's intrinsic value? The more fiat currency printed, aka, federal reserve notes or FRN's, the less the value of that particular currency.

So where do you think this will all go when US banks go belly up? If you are one of the lucky ones to get your 'CASH" out in time, you can stash it in your mattress, but even then its value will decrease daily. more than 80% of depositers nation wide would be screwed and not able to get anything. The country goes into the toilet.

Now with all this in mind, what about the FDIC? HA HA HA!

By law, they have 50 years to pay you back! Bet you did not know that one........................

You'll receive your money back 50 cents a month on an every declining bull shit worthless currency.

We have been screwed in this scheme for decades. It is just now coming to a head.

Trust me. But gold and silver. Especially silver. If you fail to plan here wisely, you are planning to fail

Elim

some links of interest on what I'm speaking of;

http://poorbuthappy.com/yourthing/post/holy-crap-even-the-fdic-could-go-bust/

http://www.citizeneconomists.com/blogs/2009/02/24/is-your-money-really-safe-with-fdic/

PS - CAT, your idiotic comments are not worth response, however for everyone else sake;

The Constitution of the united states is very clear that no amendments can be made that change the content of this contract. Amendments may only add to it's value. The constitution is as well clear that taxation can only occur in two ways; direct and indirect. The Income Tax does not fit into either category.

Tax protestors have been stating the truth of this for decades as well, but they usually get thrown in jail for doing so. They are telling the truth. I file and pay the federal extortion of course, since the trouble is far too much a risk. The system is set up so that you will pay no matter what, someone. Either pay the federal extortion, or pay high legal fees which may be more. It's totally illegal, but you can not fight it effectively with a bunch of trauma in your life.

CAT gives you his opinions in short allergic bursts; Here are some more facts;

THE SUPREMACY CLAUSE OF THE CONSTITUTION; ARTICLE 6, PARAGRAPH 2;

"the constitution and the laws of the united states, which shall be made in pursuance thereof, and the treaties made or which shall be made under the authority of the united states shall be the supreme law of the land, and that judges in every state shall be bound thereby. ANYTHING IN THE CONSTITUTION or laws of any state to the contrary are notwithstanding."

CASE LAW: MARBURY VS. MADISON 5 US 137:
"anything which is in conflict with the constitution ( illegal amendments included ) is null and void at law"
This case is 200 years old and has yet to be overturned in court, and accounts for over 9 pages of Shepards Citations. This means the case has been used quite a bit.

The 9th and 10th amendments are as well, clear that nothing can be added to the constitution that takes away from any previously declared rights or items of protection under the contract. The founders did this for a reason.

Now we have really opened up Pandora's box haven't we. I did not want to go here because it is too fucking depressing, but why not.

CAT, we are not even talking about the Income Tax here. I mentioned it because it is part of the Fed's scam, and nothing will ever get better AT ANY TIME until the we end our relationship with the Fed and get back to constitutional money as dictated by the law of the land.

Private interests have used corrupt lawyers to get around the constitution for decades. In this way we have been fucked for years without anyone really knowing it. The Income Tax is one obvious example, but again PAY IT! If not the thugs will break your thumbs.

The most obvious example is that constitutional money has been usurped for fiat currency, or the FRN's. Over 40 years now for that one.

Essentially this all means that the constitution has already been violated, more severely than you have realized. If we do not have the constitution, or if they say we still have it but they do not follow it, or they make bogus laws to get around it, then in all shapes and forms it has been usurped.

So what this discussion is truly about is how to take care of yourself with all this shit that has been going on for a very long time. Don't be fooled by the talk of people who don't know what the fuck they are talking about. To sum up the facts;

The constitution has already been usurped.

Your rights have been severely violated and you don't even realize the full extent of this.

Figure out a way to protect yourself with the avenues available, before the US banks totally tank within 18 months.

Just trying to help!

Elim

More food for thought:

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message573931/pg1

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080715195724AA7gVXv

My bank accounts in Brazil are HSBC and Banco do Brasil, although the largest deposits by far are with HSBC. Note: Banco do Brasil has great interest rates but they suck! I mean really bad and I am not exaggerating. Just ask anyone with experience with the Bank. The reason that I bring this up is because Banco do Brasil is a nationalized bank.

For those that you have not seen IOUSA, you can now watch it for free on Google Videos.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=270867650600562607

It goes over the slow financial deterioration of the United States. One of the issues is the income tax issue that some are discussing now. Even if you throw out this banking crisis and the bailouts, the US was screwed anyways because of the huge deficits and the escalation of Medicare and Social Security expenses due to the Baby Boomers retiring (us).

Elim brought up the thought that the banking system is essentially a Ponzi scheme. In some ways, I agree, but mostly not. The banking system is a critical part of a vital and growing economy. Without banking, the velocity of money slows to nothing, and the economy comes to a grinding halt. There is an inherent trust between depositors and banks. In my view, that trust has now been broken. The problem is the way that Obama, et al, are going about rebuilding trust. Pumping more money through bad banks seems silly. It seems that letting the ethical banks thrive and the bad banks fail is more logical. Moreover, putting in regulations so that the trust cannot be broken again without people spending the rest of their lives in jail, and their families broke.

The one thing that I still don't understand is the Fed. Best I can tell, the Fed is not Republican nor Democrat, and they don't report to anyone. They can just do whatever the fuck they want. It seems that the Fed in the last 20 years was getting its orders from Wall Street. Companies like Goldman Sachs, Bank of America etc. The same companies that are tight with Geitner and probably Bernanke. Of all the things broken in this one huge big cluster fuck, in my view, this one is the largest. With the powers that be, it will also not get fixed.

Elimgarak,

If the law is as crystal-clear as you suggest, wouldn't all these things have drawn the attention of a Constitutional scholar or two? Why is it that only nut cases write about this stuff on wacko blog sites? You'd think all those right wing legal scholars at places like U Chicago and George Mason University, or the kooks at Liberty University, would be all over such a radical subversion of the fundamental tenets of the Constitution (as you see it), but they aren't. There isn't a reputable legal scholar in the entire country who shares your views. Not one. Only the fringe of the fringe of the fringe nut jobs blather on like this, citing each other as sources of expertise, and occasionally making out-of-context references to the Constitution itself.

Instead of reading filtered garbage on web sites, try reading something with a little heft:

Tribe's American Constitutional Law, 3rd ed, (West)
Nowak and Rotunda Hornbook on Constitutional Law, 7th ed. (West)
Epstein and Walker's Constitutional Law for a Changing America, 5th ed ((2 vol.) (CQ Press)
Gunther, Sullivan and Sullivan's Constitutional Law, 13th ed. (Foundation Press).

Devote a month or two to the careful study of Article 1, Sec. 8, Clause 1 as well as to the Pollock case, the Wilson-Gorman Tariff Act and the 16th Amendment. Once you've plowed through these and debated the main cases covered with a law professor intent on making you feel like an idiot, then come back and lecture us on Constitutional Law and taxes. What you've posted is the drivel of the ignorant.

Now, whether the economy is going to tank or not is an issue worthy of debate.

As far as the income tax goes, you only have to read this:

The Sixteenth Amendment (Amendment XVI) to the United States Constitution was ratified on February 3, 1913. This Amendment overruled Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co. (1895), which greatly limited the Congress' authority to levy an income tax. This Amendment allows the Congress to levy an income tax without apportioning it among the States or basing it on Census results.

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

According to the United States Government Printing Office, the following states ratified the amendment:[21]

1. Alabama (August 10, 1909)
2. Kentucky (February 8, 1910)
3. South Carolina (February 19, 1910)
4. Illinois (March 1, 1910)
5. Mississippi (March 7, 1910)
6. Oklahoma (March 10, 1910)
7. Maryland (April 8, 1910)
8. Georgia (August 3, 1910)
9. Texas (August 16, 1910)
10. Ohio (January 19, 1911)
11. Idaho (January 20, 1911)
12. Oregon (January 23, 1911)
13. Washington (January 26, 1911)
14. Montana (January 27, 1911)
15. Indiana (January 30, 1911)
16. California (January 31, 1911)
17. Nevada (January 31, 1911)
18. South Dakota (February 1, 1911)
19. Nebraska (February 9, 1911)
20. North Carolina (February 11, 1911)
21. Colorado (February 15, 1911)
22. North Dakota (February 17, 1911)
23. Michigan (February 23, 1911)
24. Iowa (February 24, 1911)
25. Kansas (March 2, 1911)
26. Missouri (March 16, 1911)
27. Maine (March 31, 1911)
28. Tennessee (April 7, 1911)
29. Arkansas (April 22, 1911), after having previously rejected the amendment
30. Wisconsin (May 16, 1911)
31. New York (July 12, 1911)
32. Arizona (April 3, 1912)
33. Minnesota (June 11, 1912)
34. Louisiana (June 28, 1912)
35. West Virginia (January 31, 1913)
36. New Mexico (February 3, 1913)

Ratification (by the requisite thirty-six states) was completed on February 3, 1913 with the ratification by New Mexico. The amendment was subsequently ratified by the following states, bringing the total number of ratifying states to forty-two of the forty-eight then existing:

37. Delaware (February 3, 1913)
38. Wyoming (February 3, 1913)
39. New Jersey (February 4, 1913)
40. Vermont (February 19, 1913)
41. Massachusetts (March 4, 1913)
42. New Hampshire (March 7, 1913), after rejecting the amendment on March 2, 1911

The following states rejected the amendment without ever subsequently ratifying it:

1. Connecticut
2. Rhode Island
3. Utah

The following states never took up the proposed amendment:

1. Pennsylvania
2. Virginia
3. Florida

BT, not withstanding the current situation with US banks (supposed FDIC insured), how comfortable do you feel having your money in a Brazilian bank account?

How much does the interest rate fluctuate or do you have it in a fixed account?

Here you go gentlemen and legal scholars

Cobra-
Don't disagree for a second that the American public is fucked, even those of us who have been good stewards of our monies, have no debt, etc. We can argue over whether there's a policy path out of this chaos now, and whether the Administration is going in the right or wrong direction. I wish I had a better handle on this, but I'm not an economist and have only an educated layperson's grasp of macroeconomics, monetary policy, and fiscal policy in a globalized economic context. But Elimgarak's attempts to characterize law and his brief "history lessons" are embarrassing. I'd use the term "sophomoric," but that's too weak.

Hey, he could be a sophomore in special ed classes.

Bwana, I appreciate your thoughts.

The modern economists are just playing a game and most of them are highly paid frontmen for financial institutions. I always tell people that if you pay me $2M-$5M a year I will read a script that spins everything to engender confidence in the system. We must have our own strategy to filter through the propaganda.

I try to keep it as simple as possible. Traditional Economics boils down to common sense most of the time. Unfortunately, common sense is harder and harder to find in the US. Too many crazy rules and PC laws, especially in health care.

Economic disasters are usually preceded by incredible debt/leverage bubbles. This is what we are facing today as you can see by the above picture. A couple of good books I recommend -- Robert Schiller's, Irrational Exuberance (2000 stock market) & (2005 Real Estate) and When Genius Failed, a great book about the 1998 Long Term Capital Management collapse by Roger Lowenstein. I read Schiller's Real Estate edition in 2005. Genius Failed is a much better read (260 pages) and you would enjoyed it on one of those long plane trips to Asia. This book provides a good understanding of the hedge fund industry and the danger of leverage. It was also an early warning of the dangers we face today

Like you and probably many others on the site, I have lived within my means. This is paying off now. It is frustrating at times, given all the bailouts and future tax burdens, but we are still much better off than so many. The financial body bags are piling up. Many people have lost 60-80% of their net worth and may never get it back. It can and probably will get worse.

The ultra high net worth market has crashed and is not coming back for a long time. Take a 65-70 year old guy that was worth $100M-$500M. Many of these guys made their money during the 25 year banking boom and now have lost 50% or more. Jets, Yachts and the extra houses are on the market. This money is not going back into the market. They are too old and will not risk it again.

We just had the biggest global property/building bubble the world has ever seen, fueled by cheap, unlimited amounts of credit. I saved a 1 page article from Forbes in March 2006. It was about the Florida Flip Bubble and featured a black strip club DJ that quit his job and owned $2.5M worth of condos. Even though this guy had no credit the banks gave him ARMS as if he was a triple A Sovereign borrower, but of course those ARMS would reset. Real Estate was cocktail conversation for 3-5 years in a row. Hell, it still is. EVERYBODY was doing it.

Hope this helps some.

Cobra- Good points, all. I feel I have a pretty good handle on how we got into this mess in this country. And I understand that even that is complex, having to do both with monetary policy flooding the markets with cheap dollars which in turn fed the greed of people from Wall Street to Main Street, who over-leveraged, spent what they never had, and so forth.

Another good source, one that was given to me by Bluestraveller, is Peter Schiff's "Crash Proof." I also read some of the analyses by "non-Wall Street" economists such as Joe Stiglitz and Paul Krugman.

What I don't have a handle on is the set of options available to our government, global governments, and private actors to address the current situation. I'm pretty sure that there are probably better options than buy gold, stuffing it in boxes, and burying it, but this is where I see a lot less clarity. I suppose if there were an easy answer we'd have selected that path already. But the debate going on in places like the G20 meetings gives me a better appreciation for why economics is known as the "Dismal Science."

Me? I'm getting ready to buy real estate. I might as well while prices are depressed, interest rates are low, and my money is still worth something.

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quote:

Cobra opined: Traditional Economics boils down to common sense most of the time

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AZ Guy,

Great question. I purchased my apartment in Rio in Apr 2003 (6 years ago!). At that time, I had been visiting Rio for about a year. My apartment cost > R$800,000, and I had to open up a bank account and transfer the funds to a foreign land. I did it and it went without a hitch.

For the next 5 years, I transferred money just for living expenses. Not for investment purposes.

Not once in that entire time have I had any issue with the banking system in Brazil. In fact, I find that my banker is far more knowledgeable about economic issues than my banker(s) in the United States.

So I guess that moving money from the United States to Brazil over a 6 year period of time makes me feel more comfortable.

But more importantly than that is the interest rates in Brazil. I believe that countries with high interest rates are the ones that will weather the financial storm better than the rest. Those countries are Brazil, Russia India and China.

Lastly, since I have an apartment in Brazil, I will always have expenses in reais. My risk is abated since there is no need to convert back to dollars.

Cobra,

I think that you are on to something. As I analyze our financial mess, I think the epicenter if this mess is somehow the link between the Fed and Wall Street. Furthermore, the link between the Fed and the government is weak or at best not fully defined. My gut says that there is a pact that Wall Street and the Fed work hand in hand to achieve Wall Street's objectives. Their objective is clear - to create more wealth for themselves.

Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that some of the wealthiest people in our country are from companies like AIG and Goldman Sachs?

Maybe I am naive, but shouldn't the Fed be an agency of the US government? Shouldn't they work in conjunction with the SEC to rein in Wall Street rather than support it? And most importantly, shouldn't the Fed's primary mission be one that is defined by the American people?

Another recommended book, which I read about 20 years ago, is "Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country" by William Greider. It covers the Fed during the Reagan/Volker era, and is extremely critical of the manipulations of the market by the Fed, which Greider sees as clearly tilted towards Wall Street, with little concern for the public at large, or even the overall state of the US economy. It's a good read, but on the long side (about 800 pages, if I remember correctly).

There are interesting videos on youtube about the Fed. Search for the "Money Changers". The videos are long but very interesting. Not saying that I agree with all of their points at all but it is relavent to this discussion.

BT, thanks for the info. Would you feel comfortable having a couple hundred grand in a Rio bank?

Also, great points on the Fed. Amen.

BD, I know we cant just sit on our hands and do nothing, but dont you believe a lot of this will be taken care of with time? Not to say a change in our regulatory agencies are needed for the future.

I decided to do a Google on Bwana's author "How the Fed Runs the Country."

I found this site which recommends the book Secrets of the Temple. They to condense the book.

http://www.populistamerica.com/how_the_federal_reserve_runs_the_us

I have one other thought that this is finally starting to make sense. In our lifetimes, we have seen a huge and tragic change in America. We now have a government addicted to debt. We also have an unwitting public that is willing to borrow well beyond their means to pay. The question in my mind was that in a normal market, this reckless behavior would abate, because interest rates would rise. Demand for money is going off the charts, and supply is a function of the factors in the economy. Instead interest rates have gone DOWN???? It has not made sense until now.

The reason is the Fed. What if the Fed wants the government to be in debt to it? What if the Fed wants every American to be in debt to it? Why? Because of control.

AZ Guy,

I guess I did not make it clear, but I got a lot more than a couple hundred grand in Brazilian banks.

From the period of 2003-2008, I was moving down a couple hundred grand for living expenses. Because I had no problems, I felt comfortable moving down much larger sums in 2H 2008.

I am thinking of moving down more as I ponder the cluster fuck that we call America.

Why is obama saying that the Europeans should let Turkey in the EU, its up to the European court if they should allow Turkey in the EU.

Bluestraveller....Have you deposited any funds with Cambios? I have a British friend in Copa that put some big money in with a cambio and is getting 3.5% per month. Do you feel this is a safe move?...JR (you probably know him)

Bluestraveller....Have you deposited any funds with Cambios? I have a British friend in Copa that put some big money in with a cambio and is getting 3.5% per month. Do you feel this is a safe move?...JR (you probably know him)

Pictures are worth a thousand words....

AZguy,
I don't know for sure if it is accurate but I saw a statement on another site that you need to have a visa (other than a tourist visa) to open a bank account in Brazil. If true, this might make it difficult for most americans to invest in these high interest accounts.

Anyone knowledgeable in this area?

H1

You do need a visa other than a tourist visa. You have to have an RNE number and they will not give it to you with a tourist visa.

You need, minimally, a visa that extends for more than 12 months of continuous residence. So a tourist visa will not work. Having an RNE is not enough. If you enter on a visa other than a tourist or business visa, and are staying more than 90 days, you must apply for an RNE with the Federal Police. But you must have a visa that extends for at least 365 days of continuous residence to open a bank account.

I learned the hard way about Brazil's banking laws. I was living in Brazil when they changed this law. I had an RNE and a bank account, and the bank called me up and said, "sorry, we have to close your account. Come get your money." The literally gave me a paper bag filled with about R$100,000! They offered to get me a taxi home, but my apartment was, fortunately, in the same building as the bank. I went to every bank in town trying to find one that didn't know about the new law, but they all were onto it.

I would love to drop a few hundred K into an account there, but no can do.